Keeping Kings a bit hungry - myth or not?

[DragnDrop]

I'm somewhat new to snakes, just have experience with 2 corns, and recently bought a Ruthvens king. He had been fed a pinky a week, but he readily accepted a mouse fuzzy, and had no problems with it. I noticed he seems hungry now, about 5 days later.

A few days ago I was talking so someone about kingsnakes. He said it's a known fact that kingsnakes should never be fed all they want or could comfortably eat, they should always be kept a little bit hungry. He didn't mean overfed, but just feed them a bit less than they would want, it's better for them. I realize that overfeeding to make them grow faster isn't good, and can have detrimental effects, but I've never heard of keeping them a bit hungry. Is this just an urban myth, is he way off, or is there something to it?

Now I don't know whether to stick to the 5-6 day schedule I was planning on or not. My king is about a year and a half old (no exact info, just judging by his size). I measured him 3 times and averaged out he's around 23". The fuzzy he ate left what I'd call a reasoable bulge, leading me to believe he's ready for them and way past pinkies.

Any ideas on the "keep 'em hungry" advice? I've got some pictures of him after he ate the fuzzy showing the bulge if that'll help anything.

[Vanan]

As far as following your friend's advice (which is not all that bad), I'd say do it later when you have an eye and know your snake better. Besides, your snake's still in the growing phase and a 6 day schedule isn't all that bad. Powerfeeding happens when you're feeding them every 2-3 days! So yea, still with your current schedule. Once you notice that your snake's slowed down in growth or reaches 3-4 yrs of age, I would slow down the feedings. Or just feed small items at the same frequency as before. It's kinda tough for me to actually even recommend these frequencies cos there's so many variable involved. Like temperature you're keeping him at, quality of food item, individual snake's metabolism (it varies from snake to snake on a slight degree) etc.

Best thing to do, right now, would be to keep at your feeding schedule (since he's a growing snake) and keep a close eye on his growth (weigh him periodically, if you have a scale) and then learn with your snake as he grows. Herpetoculture is still at it's "eyeing" stage as there hasn't been enough scientific info for anyone to use in their husbandry. It's cos, there's so many species kept, and so many different ways of keeping them.

As for keeping them hungry, well let's just say we can't hear a snake's tummy rumble, so how are we to tell if it's really hungryor just being active, or searching for water, or a mate blah blah. Rather it should be more like, don't stuff your snake everytime. One of the best ways of gauging this is only feeding after you've noticed your snake poop. But this only works with non-boids.

[Invictus]

At 23", there is absolutely no way your snake should still be on pinkies. My baby kingsnake was getting fuzzies the day I brought him home, which was only a few weeks out of the egg. Move the prey item up.

As for leaving them a bit hungry, I see no reason at all to do this. My adult King, who measures in at 4.5 feet, gets 3 adult mice per feeding, and is still slender, muscular, and healthy. So why would I not give him full meals?

[Jayson]

Im with Invictus on this one, Up the food size!! He will probably take preweaned mice with no prob. With milks i like to feed a meal slightly larger then the girth of the snake. Should see a lump for a couple days.

[reverendsterlin]

I agree with the above most of my neos from July have the length or better that you gave. I also agree that during the rapid growth of youth heavy feeding is less an issue. My little ones get rapid moves up in prey size but that is accompanied with greater time between meals (i.e. on fuzzies they were on a 4 day schedule, now on juvi and adult mice they are on at least a 7 day schedule and with sheeding breacks probably average about a feeder every 9 days).

[MouseKilla]

I'd agree with upping the food size, my CalKing is about that same size, maybe a little bigger, and he puts away one 20g rat every 7 days lately. I know he would probably be quite willing to eat 2 more the same size immediately after but he doesn't get all the food he is willing to eat. I say put a healthy bulge in him once a week so long as he seems to be metabolizing it well, as long as he's getting enough heat and leaving you a smelly present 4 or 5 days later. Growing kings seem to have a bottomless appetite so I think you do have to moderate what you feed them and not just give it to them whenever they're willing to accept it.

[marisa]

Well he did mention this is a Ruthvens king not a cal king, or a florida king. A kingsnake that will stay small won't ever really need multyple mice per feeding, and its feasable its on pinkies still. Although I definitly agree about moving up the prey size.

I would just feed him once per week. That king will get about 36 inches or so at the most so it won't be a monster and will most likely be fine on one adult mouse per week for life.

Marisa
P.S. As for keeping kings hungry...I dunno about that. My females get whatever they will eat, but yes, my male is NOT fed whatever he wants. Males especially need to be slim and kings are a slender snake. Not a boid. My males get fed once per 2 weeks if they will eat in the winter, and about 3 times per month in the summer.

[Andy_G]

Keeping kings hungry is a very good thing to do if you want to get bit lol. Kings seem to want to eat everything in their sight when they are hungry(that's my experience at least) so I would advise against it and just keep it on a schedule of 6-7 days with the proper food item. I also agree with upping the food size, ruthveni are a bit smaller than the cali's but at that size it should be on a few fuzzies per feeding or maybe a small hopper.

[DragnDrop]

Thanks for the input everyone :)

My normal routine has been to wait a for a BM, check to make sure it's all pretty well digested. Seems by the 2nd day after that, the cornsnakes started prowling around like they were looking for something, which I figure was checking around for dinner. I've done the same with the king. Yesterday I fed him a medium fuzzy and a large pinky (more like a small fuzzy since it already had some hair). He ate them both. If he doesn't have problems, I'll keep that up for a few meals before I ease him onto bigger fare.

[Stockwell]

Hilde, most snakes are hungry most of the time. It's rarely possible to have them "Not Hungry" for very long, but that doesn't mean you should keep pumping food to them as soon as they start moving after the last meal. They need to be hunting MOST of the time, for proper exercise. That's the way it is in the wild.. They probably put on several miles of travel a year, up, down, and around, while seeking prey.
The basis behind what you've been told, is nodoubt the real problem of captive obesity in many Lampropeltis. People do tend to overfeed them, and this causes problems with infertility, egg binding, and shortened life. Older Kings commonly get "fat lumps" which are almost impossible to get rid of.
I once had grey banded kings that were so fat, they couldn't pull themselves up when held by the cloacal area.. they'd swing in the breeze like rocks in stocking.
I had lots of reproductive problems until I skinny'd them out...
As an extreme example of mexicana stamina, here's an interesting aside
I accidentally hibernated one for a full year once, by forgetting to remove it from the hibernation room.
I used to have a few hundred rubbermaid boxes in there, so missing one, was possible especially with species I had over a dozen of.
So for one full year it was stuck in a box with no water or food...(and yes it lost weight) Much to my shouck I found it the following fall while opening boxes in preparation for the next years brumation..
Well the snake drank for about half and hour, and I fed it all winter, then It bred successfully that summer, after a full years fast.
Mexicana are desert snakes...tough as nails

Feeding one good size meal once a week is more than adequate for raising youngsters.
Once they are mature, males should be kept lean and mean for best breeding results.
Mature females will require more food after brumation and prior to egg production.
It's fine, to miss weekly feedings every now and then..Most of my adults don't get fed weekly outside the breeding season..
I feed them when I feel like it and have time. They aren't on any calendar in the wild.
I generally feed most adult snakes every other week because I only get mice ever other week...
Hell if it was more work than that, I might as well get into those Chameleon thingies. :)

One beauty of snakes is LOW MAINTENANCE...
Some people are afraid to enjoy this aspect

[marisa]

That's a good post Roy! I think that explains a lot and adds to the fact that kings are not meant to be fat. Ever. My males seem to do good one once per two weeks for the most part. My females are still young enough to be fed more often though so I cannot comment on them.

I have one male Mexican Black King who is about 6 or 7 years old, he has two fat lumps near his vent and no matter how slim I fed this guy now, or how much exercise we have given him, they haven't gone away in three years since we have had him. They are most likely permanent. All because someone had to stuff him full constantly.

:(

Marisa

[Vanan]

Nice post Roy! Maybe more and more people will open up to the fact that overfeeding is bad.

As for the fatty lumps, I vote for liposuction!!! lol!

[DragnDrop]

Thanks for the info Roy. You've answered a lot of questions that I haven't even gotten around to asking. Your mind reading is the best :)

Right now I have "Erik" in a 10 gallon tank while he's in quarantine. To give him something to do, I've siliconed a few branches together so he can climb or hang out when he wants to. I'm not sure how much climbing Ruthvens normally do, but he seems to like spending a few hours there in the evening watching us. When I put his feeding bowl in there the other day, he was draped across two branches, watching and waiting. What surprised me was that he ate his whole meal while hanging from a branch, only the front half of his body was dangling down, the back still holding on to the branch. Is it normal for them to eat 'upside down'? I was almost afraid he'd have problems swallowing 'up' but figured he knows his talents better than I do.

[marisa]

hahahaha that's really neat!!! I have had a female cornsnake who actually preferred to spend 100% of her time above ground. It was to the point I actually made her a hiding spot a foot high off the ground which she ate from, shed in and even defecated in/from. She would lanch out for mice and swing them back up and in the hide above the ground. It was really something to watch! :)

Marisa

[gonesnakee]

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YA KEEP THEM TOO HUNGRY LOL Mark I.

<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/gonesnakee/LEGGO OF ME.JPG"width="600">

[Stockwell]

Mark.They don't call them Kingsnakes for nothing LOL....But I find they only do that if you pick them up !!
I am presently specializing mostly in Erycines. You know those tiny wimpey sand and rosy boas..
Every damn one I own bites... but I don't handle snakes much, and yes, I use hooks and gloves even for rosy boas.. Not because a little bite upsets me, but I'm tired of tracking my own blood onto the carpet. Plus it isn't good for snakes to get their teeth stuck in human flesh.. This can result in sudden launching across rooms and into walls etc. LOL

[gonesnakee]

Too funny Roy. I too seem to recall having launched a baby boa around 7-8 ft once. I went to pull back quick & guess who was already attached to the ends of me fingers LOL Least she landed safely on a bed. The funny thing about the pic is it is my very first snake "Schizo"(how appropriate eh!) & I had a friends friend that was not too sure about them, so I figured I'd pull out a nice TAME one for him to handle. Needless to say he still hasn't held a snake LOL. This is a classic "Never say Never" in reguards to biting LOL Mark
P.S. It took around 1/2 hour & a real big tub of very cold water to get him off me. Man can they hold their breath a long time!

[Stockwell]

Yeah I hear ya man! I once had a Blairs king miss a mouse I was dangling and got my middle finger dead on, and swallowed it right up to my nuckle...
It took forever to get the bugger off... and it hurt like hell, and I was bleeding all over the place
But I sure gave him the finger!!! LOL

[greenman1867]

I can tell exactly when my Cali King is getting hungery...................always!! She would eat a dozen Fuzzy Rats if I let her. She is about 30" long and as sleek as can be.

Actually I feed her a fuzzy rat every 5-7 days, after she eats she goes into hiding for a day or two, but as soon as she startes getting hungery she is out cruising her enclosure, day or night.

[Chaotica]

This was an interesting read. Here is my king, is one pink enough or would two be better?