View Full Version : My definition of a pastel B.c.i warning may take long for page to download...
Hi all;)
I've been selectivly breeding pastel B.c.i for a long time now. I have two original bloodlines that came from two WC males at around 1990. One is a yellow pastel and the other an orange pastel . I've been on the look out for weird stuff since i buy snakes and there's some really nice WC mutations landing in Canada every year. Including Anery, Pastels, WC.Salmon tails (Centrals), Ghost balls, high yellow balls, axanthic ball, weirdo axanthic ball ( like paradox ) , really high white emmy's and the list goes on and on......
I lost all my snakes in 98' in the great ice storm we had in quebec . To make it brief we didint had electricity for 5 weeks. We had to heat with a wood stove because the generator wasent efficient enough to heat all the house.
All the snakes ( 200+) were placed around it in huge pillowcases which were placed in cardboard boxes....As we( me and my partner at that time ) had to climb on the roof for some deicing 10" to 12" thick to prevent costly damages on the house, a big burm got out and smashed one oil lamp on the floor. They found a 16ft foot burm under the pile of debrie in the basement two weeks later when they were digging with a mechanical shovel. The rest is history. For those who dont know the whole story it will be explained in my website once finished. All my bloodlines and their history will be in it to.
Enough history now...Since then my partner got out of snakes and I restarted all over on my own. I was fortunate enough to purshase some babies I sold in the 90' back from different people, from the original WC bloodlines I had and restarted to breed them....
In a previous post, Nuno's post, there was some questionning on that morph....
Very nice. Pastel? Who has pastels in Canada? Might have to get me one of those. Trevor
I think you'll find some here in Canada Trev.;)
"First, what is a "Pastel"? [...] A Pastel is this: A Boa that has an odd overall wash lacking the normal amount of black and a reduction in black pigmentation in particular throughout the pattern. This is particularly apparent in babies, which have the same kind of washed out pattern as Hypos. The saddles as well as the side blotches have less black than "normal". In fact, often the side blotches have no black whatsoever. That's it, no more no less. Now it is unfortunate that this leaves a lot to interpretation. Identifying Pastels can be and is subjective. It is very much a matter of opinion. There are definitely degrees of "Pastelism". How much Pastelism is required to label an animal "Pastel"? I don't know what measure others may use, but I know what I look for in babies. I look for nearly no black in the side pattern. A very small amount of black can be found but nearly none normally. Sorry this can't be more definitive but it just can't."
Chappy, I agree with you for the complete lack or partially of blothes on the sides and the clean background. I have what i call a reduced pattern bloodline of my own that get the same effect tho. See pics bellow. I have to say that is a co-dom gene to. And that there is degrees of pastelism. They also must have a "pastel background".
From my point of view these are what I call pastels and thats what I label them when sold. They also gonna give around 1/4 of pastels when bred to a regular female.
Now here's a pastel Reduced Pattern from my bloodline. It has pastel blood and redused pattern blood as well. You can see the reduction of saddles on the sides they are almost non existant. It has the Reduced Pattern in it ...The saddles on his back are reduced as well. The most important is the background color in my eyes.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel1.jpg
This one is also from my bloodline but dosent have the reduced pattern bloodline in it. In contrary of what is believed they get more pastel color as they age. Its around one year old on those pics. I produced it in 2002 and it was sold to a friend of mine "Kirk Perry" we selected it from a litter that had four pastels in it, with Mike Perry. ( a good friend of mine at that time )....
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel3-med.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel2-med.jpg
This one is a plain clean reduced pattern of my bloodline. Its a good pic to compare with the pastels. And understand what i mean by clean sides in the reduced pattern.. Its far from the pastel color. What do you think?
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Reducedpattern1.jpg
And another baby see the top saddles again. Its another reduced pattern.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Rducedpattern2.jpg
My goal with those mutations ( and some others which i'll show sometime later ) is to put some "Salmon Hypo" in them and see what they give after. I think they gonna produce some weird nice looking babies.
If there is something that you dont understand in this text please tell me i'll try to explain it better , my english is not that good.;)
Hope you like,
Stav
Those are some fantastic looking BCI! Best of luck with your future pastel endevours :)
Damn those snakes are nice!! :D
MouseKilla
01-06-04, 01:08 PM
It sounded at first that "pastel" was a form of hypomelanism but from those examples it seems that isn't the case... there is all kinds of dark black on those snakes. What I'm seeing now is a yellowish colouring, aside from the obvious reduced patterns which you are saying is not in itself a pastel trait, if I understand correctly... I think I'm more confused than ever now but it seems you're saying that the yellowish background colour is what is important. This is a difficult trait to define, most can be spelled out in a single sentence (amel, hypomel...etc.) this one eludes me entirely.
This is a good reason for breeders and everyone else to abandon these cute names for traits that tell you nothing about the animal's characteristics. If a snake has a certain type of trait, say it's a form of hypomelanism then we should be calling it a hypomel, not a reverse chocolate marble tulip juicy tree or any other sort of BS that is just designed to lure in newbs at the pet shops.
Very nice project stav hope all goes well for you.
Clownfishie
01-06-04, 11:26 PM
Awesome looking boas Stav! :D I really like that top one, and the second from the bottom!
Thanks all for your comments;)
Mousekilla,
It sounded at first that "pastel" was a form of hypomelanism but from those examples it seems that isn't the case...
Thats right Mousekilla. Thats what i think.
Here's an example of what I qualify as a hypo. Not a salmon hypo because there is some black in the tail.
If you look at the saddles though there's no black pigmentation in most of her body. You can also see that its not a pastel if you compare her to the pastel pics. Do you understand me? This bloodline also produces dwarfs. This female is a 96' and she's about 5 to 5,6'' feet long.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634BciColHyDwf96wc01_24Stav_T.jpg
Now this one is a baby from her. She was born with three colours. On her sides she had a grayish large band from head to tail and 2 orange large lines bordering the grayish line . Unfortunatly they are disapearing slowly but you can still see the two diminished orange lines on her sides
I'll seek for some pictures I took back when she was born. She was born in 2002 and her father was a narrow saddle yellow pastel male.
Note the pale brown little spots between her saddles typical of hypos and the white patches she has in her saddles. She is not a pastel. I will pair her up with a salmon hypo when she's ready.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634BciColHyDwf02cb01_5Stav_T.jpg
Hope you understand what i mean,
Stav
MouseKilla
01-07-04, 10:00 PM
Thanks Stav, I'm sure I could never explain what pastel is to anyone else but I think I get the idea somewhat. All I know for sure is you have some awesome boas, that last one is in particular is just incredible (but not a pastel, right?). So though I don't quite get what you're doing I hope you keep doing it.
My difficulty with snake genetics is I tend to want it to be more mathematical than possible. I want this gene plus another gene to equal a particular result but appearance is so variable even among wild type morphs that it isn't possible to be certain or precise. It gets even more complicated when you discover that there are all different types of hypomelanism and other traits... maybe I need to stop analyzing them so much and just enjoy them.
Simon Hamelin
01-08-04, 03:31 AM
( a good friend of mine at that time )....
it's to funny
:mednormal :medtoothy :medteeths :medangry: :medgrimac
nice snakes Stav............;)
Thanks;)
Mousekilla,
that last one is in particular is just incredible (but not a pastel, right?).
Thats right she is not a pastel. She is simply the product of the hypo female and a narrow saddle yellow pastel male.
For the pastels...they produce around 1/4 of pastels in each litter.
Simon,
It took me some time to understand the smilies but I get it now;) You are an artist man hehehe
BOAS_N_PYTHONS
01-08-04, 11:31 AM
COLUBOID:
Put me on that order list on some Canada Pastels indeed.
Hear from you soon I hope.
Cya...
Tony
No problemo Tony,
As soon as I get some. You seem to have a very interesting collection there. Are they all breeding size?
Stav
BOAS_N_PYTHONS
01-10-04, 01:16 AM
STAV T:
Hi again, actually 1/4 of my collection listed and non- listed is at breeding age and some females show some promise right now with full bellies, me a happy grandfather I guess.
Getting back to definition on PASTELS:
I think any boa willing to wear a DON JOHNSON - MIAMI VICE blazer with the white pants should be called a PASTEL............lol.
JOKING of course.
Cya...
Tony
Here is a pastel in my collection
Head Shot little or no speckles very thin saddles.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_shot_for_web-med.jpg
Body shot the side markings are almost missing.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_side_shot_close-med.jpg
Tail shot very bright and clean.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Tail-med.jpg
This snake has matured into an almost solid orange/pink adult. Many pastels also start out as rather drab but clean babies and develop the pink coloration as they age.
Pastels have been proven co dominant (1/2 off offsrpring in litter will be pastel) also they have been bred into salmons and anerys which has cleaned those morphs up quite a bit. Jeff Ronne has ivory anerys which are basically pastel anery boas very clean and light just missing the red.
Dan
Yep Dan this is a freakin nice Hypo wow! Not a pastel in my opinion though. If its a pastel well its probably a different kind than mine.
I'd say this is a very nice clean hypo with some nice high pink orange in it. This is where i'm going with my hypo project by bringing the salmon hypo gene in the hypo line hopefully soon and earase all traces of black in it.
My pastel line gives around a 1/4 of pastels each time.
Are you planing to breed this one with some other morph?
Stav
The boa in my previous post was produced from a pastel male bred to the butt ugliest female out there. She was produced in Medicine Hat and is not a hypo as she still has black around her saddles and tail markings.
She was the cleanest baby in the litter. Not a hypo but an extreme pastel.
I have plenty of hypos in the collection and this is a pastel. You put them side by side and they are different animals.
Also how many litters are you basing the 1/4 ratio on?
You also have to remember that hypos as well as pastels are very variable.
Here are some pics for comparison.
2002 Pastel female
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702002_Pastel_Female-med.jpg
Her sister a pastel but very different look.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Super_pastel_Female_1.jpg
The little ones generally start out light grey in color with very little pink and develop it as they age, generally by a year or two the pink really starts to come out.
Updated pic of the female from my previous post (she just ate a small bunny) she was born in 2001.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702001_Pastel-med.jpg
Notice any similarities between her and the 2002 female. They are from different litters and different years but can be traced back to one pastel male their grandfather who lives in Olds Alberta.
Now for some salmons in the collection.
2002 female poss het for albino produced by TC
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Female_Hypo_2002_one-med.jpg
Her sister from same litter. She exhibits the pink sides of a pastel along with the salmon coloration. A Salmon pastel
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Salmon_female-med.jpg
2000 Salmon DH for Sunglow female produced by Rich Ihle.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70DansMfemale2-med.JPG
An finally the combination of the pastel gene and the albino gene. The coral phase albino 2003 male. Jeff Ronne calls these guys pastel albinos Pete Kahl calls them coral phase in my opionon they are one in the same. Produced in Calgary this past summer.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Albino_male_2-med.jpg
If you look at the tails of the pastels they still have the black rings around the markings whereas the salmons lack the black, also when you see the pastels in person they have much pinker sides than the salmons. Different genes are at work here.
Dan
Hi Dan,
First, I have to specify that I didint want to start an argument of anykind here. I simple gave you my opinion on your snake based on the first pictures you posted. I still say that that snake on the first pictures dosent look like a pastel. Now, on the last pic of it you posted, well yes it looks like pastel ! If you would have shown it the first time I would never had said its not a pastel.
Your first pictures of a pastel,
Head Shot little or no speckles very thin saddles.... This is not specific to pastels only, you find clean heads and thin saddles on a variety of normal coloured boas as well. You will find that on hypomelanistic boas to ( Note that i'm not talking about salmon hypos which I know that only their 3-4 last tail saddles are bordered by black). ( hypo meaning a "reduction" or "insufficiency" or "deficiency" or "shortage"etc.. of melanin ) In what % ? Well its variable to some extend.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_shot_for_web-med.jpg
An example... very little speckles ( I have other normal coloured boas that have no speckles at all. )
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Reducedpattern1.jpg
And a pic of "normal coloured" narrow saddle of my narrow saddle line ( Note its very far from a "hypo" or a "pastel". )
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/narrowsddlescolstav-t_large.jpg
Body shot the side markings are almost missing....( some will stay like that ). Seing pale round side saddles is very frequent if not "almost" always in new born boas pastels or not ( see your updated pic of her bellow ) . This is quite frequent with pastels but again its common with boas that are simply nice clean normals.You will find that on hypomelanistic boas to. ( Note that i'm not talking about salmon hypos which I know that only their 3-4 last tail saddles are bordered by black.) ( hypo meaning a "reduction" or "insufficiency" or "deficiency" or "shortage"etc.. of melanin ) In what % ? Well its variable to some extend.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_side_shot_close-med.jpg
What about this pic of her that you posted....I see black dots on her lower body do you? Its what I just said they got darker as she ages.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702001_Pastel-med.jpg
An example,her father was a pastel. Is she? No. ( not the best pic to see it but you still can see)... I'm not talking about the triangular shaped saddles that are an extention of the dorsal saddles, look at the small dot like patterns on the lower part of the body as yours. Or check the previous normal coloured one.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634BciColHyDwf02cb01_5Stav_T.jpg
Tail shot very bright and clean.This is quite frequent with pastels but again its common with boas that are simply nice clean normals.You will find that on hypomelanistic boas to. ( Note that i'm not talking about salmon hypos which I know that only their 3-4 last tail saddles are bordered by black.) ( hypo meaning a "reduction" or "insufficiency" or "deficiency" or "shortage"etc.. of melanin ) In what % ? Well its variable to some extend.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Tail-med.jpg
An example of a 2003 hypo. This one is from a friend of mine he got it last year, from a regular mother and father. One was like that in all the litter (20 or so ) if I remember well. Look at the tail its bright and clean. Look at the sides there's lots of orange and pinkish colour. Is this snake a pastel? ( My friend took the pic sorry for the quality. )
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/shhystav-t_large.jpg
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/shhystav-t1_large.jpg
What I was saying is that on "those" pics "in my opinion" it looked like a really nice hypo ( not a salmon hypo ) because you can't see the "pastel" colouration in the background that the two I posted have which make pastels "pastels"
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel1.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel3-med.jpg
Now if you would have posted this updated pic of your pastel right from the begining I would never had told you that it looked like a hypo. I can easly see that it is a pastel and that it would probably look like the two i posted if the pic was a bit brighter. No matter her saddles, head or side spots look like.
This snake has matured into an almost solid orange/pink adult. Many pastels also start out as rather drab but clean babies and develop the pink coloration as they age.
I agree with what you are sayin. I've seen it alot.
Pastels have been proven co dominant (1/2 off offsrpring in litter will be pastel) also they have been bred into salmons and anerys which has cleaned those morphs up quite a bit. Jeff Ronne has ivory anerys which are basically pastel anery boas very clean and light just missing the red.
I have no doubt that they have been bred with other morphs there's plenty of them! I never said they didint! I said my goal with those is to do that but with my line. I also Know Its A Co-Dom gene! Do I sound like an idiot or what??? If yes , sorry I cant express myself in english as I would wish I think i'm trying here..... An yes my pastels give 1/4 pastels when bred to a normal looking female dark or not!
Also how many litters are you basing the 1/4 ratio on?
I didint count the number of liters. I've bred pastels from the early 90' until before the icestorm of 98'. How many "boas" I've produced since i'm breeding boas??? I dont know either because its many. In the hundreds. I was lucky to be able to get some babies from my line from guys that succesfully bred the babies I sold to them and start again my pastel breeding after the fire in 98'.. And again...... """"""I'm not talking about others line but Mine give around 1/4 of pastels in each litters.""""""
The boa in my previous post was produced from a pastel male bred to the butt ugliest female out there. She was produced in Medicine Hat and is not a hypo as she still has black around her saddles and tail markings.
I have no doubt that you obtained pastel from an uggly female. again... No matter what the female will look like she's gonna produce some pastels if bred to a pastel. For the hypo definition again....( hypo meaning a "reduction" or "insufficiency" or "deficiency" or "shortage"etc.. of melanin ) IF THE HYPO DEFINITION WAS : A "COMPLETE" LACK OF BLACK Salmon's wouldent be Hypo because they have some black around the 3-4-5 last tail saddles! Understand?
You also have to remember that hypos as well as pastels are very variable.
Is this sentence a contradiction to the previous sentence?
Here are some pics for comparison.
2002 Pastel female
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702002_Pastel_Female-med.jpg
Sorry but the only thing I see in" that pic" is an avarage normal baby boa! And its not even close to the pastel you have! Maybe its my screen that dosent show it? I wonder if any other people here see a pastel in that pic??Its a co-dom gene, Pastels will produce pastels or normals. Not possible pastels or het pastels or whatever! Yes pastels are variable but please it goes to far now....
Her sister a pastel but very different look.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Super_pastel_Female_1.jpg
I must say that this one is a very nice boa ! Hypo to my eyes but not a pastel on "that" pic. I'd like to see it under the correct lighting it might show pastel as your other one.
The little ones generally start out light grey in color with very little pink and develop it as they age, generally by a year or two the pink really starts to come out.
I agree that they get more pastel colours as they age to but they usually
have a base of pastel colours frequently before or right after the first shed. ( Note that many normal new borns dispaly some kind of pastel colours because they are freshly born.)
2002 female poss het for albino produced by TC
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Female_Hypo_2002_one-med.jpg
Very nice Salmon Hypo! I whish I had one like that.
Her sister from same litter. She exhibits the pink sides of a pastel along with the salmon coloration. A Salmon pastel
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Salmon_female-med.jpg
A very nice Salmon Hypo again! i dont see the pastel in it though.
2000 Salmon DH for Sunglow female produced by Rich Ihle.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70DansMfemale2-med.JPG
Very Nice! I'm sure that this snake under proper lighting looks even better!
An finally the combination of the pastel gene and the albino gene. The coral phase albino 2003 male. Jeff Ronne calls these guys pastel albinos Pete Kahl calls them coral phase in my opionon they are one in the same. Produced in Calgary this past summer.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Albino_male_2-med.jpg
WoW!!:jawdrop:
If you look at the tails of the pastels they still have the black rings around the markings whereas the salmons lack the black, also when you see the pastels in person they have much pinker sides than the salmons. Different genes are at work here.
I think I know pretty well that pastels have the black rings around the saddles! My god did you read my post or what??? Did I ever said they didint??
I also know how pastels look like in person and i'm totaly with you on that!
Any picture that someone will take dosent make them justice! They are an amazing morph with tons of possibilitys when you think of breeding them to other morphs!
I also know what salmons are! In fact here are two WC central american salmons that came in a shipment of around 150 babies in Montreal in fall of 2002 if my memory is good. I was working night shifts and a friend of mine ( at that time ) Mike Perry woke me up with his call saying that he got something weird for me. And that they looked like WC HogIslands and that he was on his way for my home. When I saw them .....surprise I couldent believe it. For those who remember I posted them on the other site K.S when I got them. They were in really bad condition, skinny and very dehydrated not feeding by themselfs and ended up dying despite the care, treatments, and forcefeed I provided them. ( Sorry for the crappy pics I didint had a digital cam at that time so I took them with a webcam. )
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/wccentralam02stav-t2_large.jpg
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/wccentral-am02stav-t_large.jpg
The good news is that another one made his way in a WC shipment a cpl of months ago;)
For those who will read this reply I hope you didint fall asleep while you were reading it .
( Sorry for my bad english i'm sure there's alot of errors but I'm tiered and I dont have the courage to go thrue it :)
Dan, You got some nice snakes there I wish you the best and lots of babies;)
Stav
MouseKilla
01-12-04, 07:48 AM
This is getting more confusing with each additional post. All I know is that before I buy a "pastel" from anyone, and they want more than the current market price for a normal, they had better be able to explain this to me and show me what I'm paying extra for. I say if it looks just like a normal then that's what it is. I still haven't heard a one-line definition of what "pastel" is supposed to be, which is what is needed for your average moron like me. Certainly some sweet looking boas in the pics though!
Derrick
01-12-04, 08:14 AM
sounds to me like pastel's are just selectively bred normals. Call it what ever you want they are just nice looking normals.
Stav
I think we just have a difference in what we consider a pastel.
Many of your definations are based on your own personal opinions and not science or what we have learned through the efforts of other well know boa breeders.
That is why I asked you how many litters you based the 1/4 ratio on as modes of inheritance are scientifically proven and based on numbers produced over time and within each litter.
Rich Ihle wrote a paper on his salmon trait and proved the mode of inheritance as co dominant based on numerous litters and 100's of offsrping.
You say that 1/4 of the litter was pastel and you know what co dominant is. Are you saying in a co dominant breeding you generally get 1/4 of the offspring will express the trait.
You say your friend produced a hypo from a normal to normal breeding inferring that it was recessive. When all lines of hypos whether it be Jeff Gees line or Dr. Hardy's line or Rich Ihle salmon line are all co dominant. The little Hypo Nicaraguans you have also work in the same way, a number of breeders in the U.S. have bred farmed Nicaraguan Hypos and proved them out to co dominant as well. You need to have a hypo or salmon parent to produce hypos that is how co dominance works.
A salmon or hypo parent when bred to a normal parent will on average produce 50% salmon hypo offspring.
You also consider a hypo different than a salmon and it is not. You can ask any breeder in the U.S. who works with them that Rich Ihle coined the salmon name because it differentiates is animals from other peoples lines. Marketing!! Salmons and hypos are one in the same and that is why I posted the pics of the hypos/salmons I have to show you that in salmons or hypos the black tail rings are absent where as in the pastels the dark black ring still remains.
The pics you post of what you consider a hypo has dark black tail rings and if you were to send that picture to a breeder who produces hypos he would tell you it is clean normal snake.
I probably do have a different opinion on what a pastel is from yours and that is fine that is what this forum is for. What I consider a pastel you consider a hypo but what you forget is I have the salmons and the hypos from proven lines to compare them to. We know from other breeders like Rich Ihle, Jeff Gee etc what hypos are, how the genes work and it has been proven time and again.
It seems you are unsure of how hypo/salmon genes work and are only confusing people more by making up your own definitions.
That is why I posted in the first place.
Dan
Siretsap
01-12-04, 06:52 PM
I have seen Stav's snakes in person, and I can tell you they are by far the best looking PASTELS I have seen.
Keep up the good work Stav.
Dan,
I think we just have a difference in what we consider a pastel.
I probably do have a different opinion on what a pastel is from yours and that is fine that is what this forum is for. What I consider a pastel you consider a hypo....
Yes I have a different opinion of what a pastel is. I " DONT " consider pastels as hypo! Where do you get that?? See bellow I told Mousekilla that pastels were not HYPOS !!
Here's a pic ( your pic your snake ) of what you consider being a pastel.....Does it have any pastel colouration in it yellows, pinks or oranges??? If there is some well i'm blind. It is a co- dom gene! They are or they arent pastels! And I would never buy this snake as a Pastel.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702002_Pastel_Female-med.jpg
Now here's a pic ( my pic my snake ) of what I consider being a pastel...... Does it have a pastel colouration????? I really wonder who's confusing people here ?????????????????
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634Pastel1.jpg
You say your friend produced a hypo from a normal to normal breeding inferring that it was recessive. When all lines of hypos whether it be Jeff Gees line or Dr. Hardy's line or Rich Ihle salmon line are all co dominant.
You also consider a hypo different than a salmon and it is not. You can ask any breeder in the U.S. who works with them that Rich Ihle coined the salmon name because it differentiates is animals from other peoples lines. Marketing!! Salmons and hypos are one in the same and that is why I posted the pics of the hypos/salmons I have to show you that in salmons or hypos the black tail rings are absent where as in the pastels the dark black ring still remains
The pics you post of what you consider a hypo has dark black tail rings and if you were to send that picture to a breeder who produces hypos he would tell you it is clean normal snake.
Oh Man! were did you get this????? I never said anything like that!!!!!!!!! Where do you get the recessive thing?? Where do you get the idea that I consider HYPO different from SALMON ???? My point
was that you can have two dark boas bred together and get nice clean pale boas ! Why are they pale and very nice clean looking ????? Because there is a shortage of melanin! Whats the definition of a shortage of melanin???? .
Again......Hypomelanistic = ( hypo meaning a "reduction" or "insufficiency" or "deficiency" or "shortage"etc.. of melanin ) Do you get me now ??????? Make a quick search in a dictionnary on the word " Hypo " You will understand what i mean! And if you breed two of those pale offsprings together they gonna produce a hell lot of pale " hypos" or whatever you wanna call it.
Here's what I consider a dark ugly Boa ! ( what makes it nice to me is the narrow saddles )
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/narrowsddlescolstav-t_large.jpg
And here's a pale or hypo or whatever you wanna call it! Do you see a diminution of Black Pigmentation? I do!
http://stavt.mypicgallery.com/?/breeding/shhystav-t_large.jpg
I never maid any definition, originally I sited the "hypo" thing to say and try to explain to Mousekilla that the Pastels were "not" some kind of hypos!!!
Here is what he wrote:
Mousekilla,
It sounded at first that "pastel" was a form of hypomelanism but from those examples it seems that isn't the case...
This is what I responded and thats why I sited the hypo thing:
Thats right Mousekilla. Thats what i think.
Here's an example of what I qualify as a hypo. Not a salmon hypo because there is some black in the tail. If you look at the saddles though there's no black pigmentation in most of her body. You can also see that its not a pastel if you compare her to the pastel pics. Do you understand me? This bloodline also produces dwarfs. This female is a 96' and she's about 5 to 5,6'' feet long.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/634BciColHyDwf96wc01_24Stav_T.jpg
Again I never gave any new definition to the word "hypo" because the word " hypo " already has a definition. Take a look in the dictionnary. And boas that are clean , that show the colours which are hidden when they have more Black Pigmentation, well they are somekind of "hypos"! I made it clear in the previous posts explaining it so that nobody misunderstands and thinks that i'm talking about Salmons. If there is some misunderstanging well I'm sorry my english is not that good!...Do I sell those 500-1000-1500$ ? No. Do I sell them more than regular dark ones? Yes!
Many of your definations are based on your own personal opinions and not science or what we have learned through the efforts of other well know boa breeders.
Now I really hope you understand what I mean. And that you dont still say that .....
You say that 1/4 of the litter was pastel and you know what co dominant is. Are you saying in a co dominant breeding you generally get 1/4 of the offspring will express the trait.
I never said that! What i said is that this line, my line gives 1/4 pastels! Take it or leave it! Why???? God know's why!
The little Hypo Nicaraguans you have also work in the same way, a number of breeders in the U.S. have bred farmed Nicaraguan Hypos and proved them out to co dominant as well. You need to have a hypo or salmon parent to produce hypos that is how co dominance works.
Did I say anything that contradicts that?????? I know that they are co-dom I know that they probably would have given 50% of salmon hypos to if i had the chance to breed them! Thats what i'm gonna find out with the new baby if i successfully breed it! I didint prove it yet so futur only will tell! My pastel line will still only give 1/4 of pastels. And again in case you deform my word and sentencences, I never associated or said that "PASTELS" were "SALMONS" and I never said that my " PASTEL" line is " HYPO " line of anykind!!!! They are two totally different things. If you read back again you'll read that my goal is to breed my "PASTELS " with " HYPO SALMONS" and hopefully produce some nice "PASTEL SALMONS" that will have my "PASTEL" line in them. Do you get it??
Oh yhea .... when you say :
You need to have a hypo or salmon parent to produce hypos that is how co dominance works.
I dont quite understand this one...
Are you saying that hypomelanism in snakes is co-dom?
Stav
Stav
I did not say your pastels were not pastels in my orginal post I actually was agreeing with you and posted pics of the pastels in my collection.
You then proceeded to call half of them hypos and others were not pastels at all. Yet they had the exact charachteristics that you defined in your definition of a pastel.
I quote "complete lack of or partial blotches on the sides and clean background."
"you can see reduction of saddles they are almost non existant "
"contrary of what is beleived they get more pastel with age"
I thought I had said the same things in my orginal post and posted pics of animals that were exactly that.
Here we go again.
Yearling female pastel you say is not.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/11122002_Pastel_Female-med.jpg
Now I had to go to the trouble to bust out the macro lense and set up some better lighting.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Pastel_tail_for_Stav-med.jpg
She has a bit wider saddles but is very clean and is only a yearling.
Here is a close up of the side you can see the overall pink hue and more color starting to come in.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Pastel_for_stav_side-med.jpg
Also you mentioned how you would like to incorporate the salmon gene into a pastel I posted a pic of a salmon pastel that is poss het for sunglow, you said that you could see the salmon but no pastel characteristics.
So lets see here.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Pastel_Salmon_female-med.jpg
Very clean background - check
reduction in saddles - check
Lets take a look at the side shall we.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Salmon_Pastel_side-med.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Hypo_pastel_tail_close-med.jpg
partial blotches on the sides - check
tons of pink color - check
Here is a better pic of what happens when you incorporate the pastel gene into the albino.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Pastel_Albino_head-med.jpg
This guy is a yearling and started out not much pinker than most albinos but as all know now "contrary to what is beleived they get more pastel as they age"
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Albino_Pastel-med.jpg
It is difficult to tell because he is albino but he also has reduced saddles, little or no side markings and around his tail saddles he has big white rings where the black would be in a normally colored pastel.
Every single one of the animals I originally posted has all the exact same characteristics. I am a big supporter of the pastels and I know they can do wonders when incorporated into other morphs. They clean them up, increase pink coloration and you end up with a beautiful designer snake. I have also done alot of research on them and have traced back 4 generations of animals from various breeders and all led to an original pastel male (here in Alberta anway) that many of the pastel like boas in my area orginally descended from. I have sorted through at least a dozen litters from 4 or 5 different fellow breeders over the last 4 years and cherry picked a half dozen pastel boas from them.
Stav I was actually agreeing with you and supporting your position on the pastels in my orginal post it was you who started saying that my animals were hypos and you did not consider them pastels. In my next post I tried to explain to you why they were not hypos because of black rings on the tails plus various other characteristics along with genetic ratios so on and so forth.
You also referred to the one pic you had posted as a hypo and then talked about the definition of hypomelanism from a dictionary.
The snake you have is not a hypo it is a light colored normal boa!!
Hypomelanism by dictionary terms means just that a reduction in black but what we refer to a true hypo in boa circles is different than the pic you have posted.
I do not know what you charge for them but if I was a customer who did not know better and bought this so called hypo of yours and then proceeded to breed it to a normal boa in the hopes of producing more hypos. Well once those babies arrived and all were basically normal in color I would not be too happy. Read your own post where you refer to that animal as a hypo. Also where you say your friend produced a hypo from breeding two normal colored boas together. The animal is not a hypo yes it has some reduction in black coloration but it is not a hypo.
Again I was not trying to say you did not have pastels, it was you who said that most of my animals were not pastels.
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums for the most part. I cannot beleive how much of my time I wasted on this basically trying to make the same point.
If you want to corner the pastel market in Canada be my guest, I guess I will spend my time working on pastel sunglow albinos.
This is the last post I am going to do inregards to this whole mess.
P.S. maybe its time to get a new prescription for your glasses.
Dan
Dan,
I did not say your pastels were not pastels in my orginal post I actually was agreeing with you and posted pics of the pastels in my collection.
You then proceeded to call half of them hypos and others were not pastels at all. Yet they had the exact charachteristics that you defined in your definition of a pastel.
What I said is that some of those snakes ON THE PICS ( The three from alberta ) you posted didint show the pastel colouration thats all!
Then,
after you posted a pic of the last one, which is this pic :
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/702001_Pastel-med.jpg
I said :
Now, on the last pic of it you posted, well yes it looks like pastel ! If you would have shown it the first time I would never had said its not a pastel.
And this whole discution would have never took place!
The salmon hypo was the same thing.
Your first pic:
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/70Pastel_Salmon_female-med.jpg
Its a magnificent snake and I said it already. But on this pic you dont see that it has pastel colouration.
Now the second pic or pics :
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Hypo_pastel_tail_close-med.jpg
I say wow! I see mostly pinkish sides and I can see that he's started to get the whole background Pastel colouration which will apear on the dorsal to. Again which make pastels pastels.
More.... I will be a customer of yours when you get babies from this one if you would sell some to me, despite this whole post! If you dont then I completely understand. Its the same thing with that pastel you show on the rubbermaid. I'm willing to buy or trade pastels from my line with yours. If sometime they interest you.
Now for those caracteristics we are "both" talking about...
I quote "complete lack of or partial blotches on the sides and clean background."
"you can see reduction of saddles they are almost non existant "
"contrary of what is beleived they get more pastel with age"
I thought I had said the same things in my orginal post and posted pics of animals that were exactly that.
Dan, Yes thats true. What I was trying to explain and I have specified in the post is that " THESE CHARACTERISTICS " are true to many boas that are " NOT" Pastels too with my reply( Check the reply). These caracteristics are "NOT" specific to pastels only. I said it to make it clear so that people dont get the idea that if one or more of these caracteristics are seen in a boa, think that its nesseceraly a pastel. Understand? Thats why I posted a pic of a reduced patern Boa that has reduced pattern on the sides, and the one from my friend which is not a pastel to show the high pinkish or orange on the sides. Then I explained that they have diminushed black pigmentation ( hypomel ) and that thats why those colours show. There is ugly dark boas that have magnificent pinks and oranges and they dont show it like a boa that is pale would. Pastels are more than pale high pink or high orange sides. They must have that pastel colouration in all their background colour. Otherwise they are simply pale high pink or high orange or whatever nice looking boas!.;)
Your coral albino shows very well what I mean by the pastel colouration in his whole body top included "NOT" only
the sides:
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1112Pastel_Albino_head-med.jpg
Understand me? This pic is a very good pic that answers to Mousekilla's
and other people that dont understand what pastels are.
Every single one of the animals I originally posted has all the exact same characteristics. I am a big supporter of the pastels and I know they can do wonders when incorporated into other morphs. They clean them up, increase pink coloration and you end up with a beautiful designer snake. I have also done alot of research on them and have traced back 4 generations of animals from various breeders and all led to an original pastel male (here in Alberta anway) that many of the pastel like boas in my area orginally descended from. I have sorted through at least a dozen litters from 4 or 5 different fellow breeders over the last 4 years and cherry picked a half dozen pastel boas from them.
Its the same thing with me. + i select wc boas to so that I get my own lines.
Stav I was actually agreeing with you and supporting your position on the pastels in my orginal post it was you who started saying that my animals were hypos and you did not consider them pastels. In my next post I tried to explain to you why they were not hypos because of black rings on the tails plus various other characteristics along with genetic ratios so on and so forth.
You also referred to the one pic you had posted as a hypo and then talked about the definition of hypomelanism from a dictionary.
Hypomelanism by dictionary terms means just that a reduction in black but what we refer to a true hypo in boa circles is different than the pic you have posted.
The snake you have is not a hypo it is a light colored normal boa!!
Dan, you just sited it....Why is it light or pale and the saddles are more pale brown than black? Because there is a reduction of black pigmentation! Do you understand?
I do not know what you charge for them but if I was a customer who did not know better and bought this so called hypo of yours and then proceeded to breed it to a normal boa in the hopes of producing more hypos. Well once those babies arrived and all were basically normal in color I would not be too happy. Read your own post where you refer to that animal as a hypo. Also where you say your friend produced a hypo from breeding two normal colored boas together. The animal is not a hypo yes it has some reduction in black coloration but it is not a hypo.
Dan, if you was a customer of mine you would never get this for a hypo in hopes to produce salmon hypos! The same thing for each of my customers that have done deals with me wholesalers included! I never say they are "HYPO" like salmons. I explain the whole melanin reduction and " MAKE SURE THAT THEY DONT THINK THEY GONNA GET HYPO SALMONS" out of them. They all until today understand this perfectly and they have never been misleaded! They understand perferctly to, why they are pale nice looking babies due to the diminished black pigmentation.! As I said earlier I do not sell them 500-1000 or 1500 , I sell them market value thats all!
More.... I hope that some of my customers see this post and confirm that I explain all what I just wrote to them and that they understand the whole pale, light, "diminished black", hypo, whatever etc... and that they tell on this forum that they never thought and bought any of these in hopes to produce Salmons!
Again you are assuming things and give other sence to what I say or do and this, for sure can misslead other people that dont know me!
This is exactly why I try to stay off the forums for the most part. I cannot beleive how much of my time I wasted on this basically trying to make the same point.
Imagin how much time "I" spend when i post on an english forum! For this one 2hrs and this to make sure I really explain in english what I mean. This so that there is no misinterpretation. Seems I didint achieve it with this one.
If you want to corner the pastel market in Canada be my guest, I guess I will spend my time working on pastel sunglow albinos.
This was never my goal. I keep snakes and breed them since many years ( not as many years as oncle Roy who's one of the oldest and more experienced breeder in Canada and this for many species of snakes not only boas) but enough years to get somekind of experience. I do it because I like snakes, I always get an adrenaline rush when I see new borns come out of females or eggs, I like playing and "corning" specific traits when its possible and "FINALLY THE LAST THINGS IN MY MIND ARE $$$$$$ or RECOGNITION OF ANYKIND" . I have pretty decent job and I make enough $$ and I dont need any extra! So cornering any market is far from my goal!
And thats another example of things you presume I'm doing!
P.S. maybe its time to get a new prescription for your glasses
Dont worry I dont need any yet;)
Stav
LOL this is why I stick to the no-brainers... no arguing an albino is not an albino! :p Regardless of what they are, you guys have some great looking snakes!
Mousekilla,
You mentioned it sounded pretty murky earlier... lol I think this is enough proof of that! :p
MouseKilla
01-14-04, 04:26 PM
Linds,
I'm in tears. After doing all the recommended reading on reptile genetics I still don't think I'll ever understand what these guys are talking about. I think the whole thing is a little contrived really, like you said, when we talk about amels there is no debating what they are. I don't mean to offend anyone when I say that because those pics featured some incredible boas, some of the nicest I've seen but what I need is a concise definition to recognize a new morph.
It's silly to hang a name on a morph that no one can define or tell you whether it is a recessive or co-dominant trait. Maybe I'm failing to comprehend what some have attempted to explain over thousands of words and a pile of pictures. It just sounds to me that a real definition doesn't exist.
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