The Big Question: Sand vs Everything Else

[tHeGiNo]

Ok, after reading a few threads I deemed it necessary and useful to myself to create this topic. I understand why sand is a substrate which should be avoided. The reasons are clear to me, so this does not need to be stated. However what I am looking for is an alternative. Not paper towl or news paper. I therefore must ask the big question: What is the best substrate for Pogona Vitticeps? By best, of course, I mean an efficient, clean substrate which tends to the bearded dragons needs before the owners needs. Which is how it should be. I ask that you use factual answers, and state WHY the substrate in question is the best. I am sure this will be a great debate, and it would be great to get some of the experts like EyeSpy in here. Please do not just post a substrate and call it a done deal. Expand.

[drewlowe]

Wheat bran and bed a beast. The reasoning it will break down in the stomach unlike sand.

[Phox]

I agree with Drewlowe! Bed-A-Beast, it looks nice and its easy to clean up accidents :). I believe I remember seeing a post from EYESPY saying that thier has yet to be any reported cases of Beardies being impacted from coconut husk(Bed-A-Beast). I have a few pics in my gallery if your unsure of what it looks like.

[tHeGiNo]

I know what it looks like as I use it with my frilled dragons. However, I am more interested in what is best for the dragon rather then what looks nice and whats more efficient for myself. If you meant it is best for the beardie as well, then even better!

[QueenHerper]

Yesterday's News: No, I'm not talking about the newspaper. Yesterday's News is actually sold as a cat litter, however, it is becoming widely used by many dragon owners. If you decide to use this, remember to get the ORIGINAL UNSCENTED formula. Dragons love this stuff and have fun tossing it around and ''swimming'' in it.
Reptile Carpeting- This is one of the most popular choices out on the market today. It is easy to clean, inexpensive and best of all... SAFE! To clean, simply hand wash it with some dish detergent, make sure to rinse it off VERY well and then allow it to air-dry. I would recommend keeping a second carpet available to replace when you are washing the other one.

Sandy

[tHeGiNo]

Would that not too pose a large risk of impaction? Or is it digestable?

[chamitch]

has anyone ever had a problem with impactionusign sand?
if so were u feedig out of a dish or free range crks?

kinda makes sense if u are feeding free range crks then they will get sand evertime they eat. but out of a dish ive never seen a beardie eat sand but obviously would get a little

later

[tHeGiNo]

Overtime, this stuff adds up. Ask eyespy how many dead animals she has seen whose death has been brought upon through impaction. I'm sure she has a list longer then the wish lists Santa Clause gets.

[QueenHerper]

I myself have never used the Yesterdays news its but i have heard really positive stuff about it. from what i have been from asking about it. If ingested it kinda swells up and turns into mush in the belly. so then it would be ok if accidentally ingested. The one thing i read thou is to make sure your dragon stays hydrated cause the YN needs the water to absorb and get mushy. from what i have read i would say it is healthy and and would be digestable if eaten. Another substrate that you may try are rabbit pellits they are completly digestable and they look nice also. the only problem with them is that when they will swell up like dog food does and may cause more of an oder in you cage. just means you will have to take the soiled pellets out right away. Which one should do anyway.

sandy

[tHeGiNo]

Common now! There has to be more then this to say on the topic!

[Dragon_Slave]

Sandy,
Your post about Yesterdays News and Reptile Carpeting looks familiar, did I write that? Lol. I could have sworn I wrote that... or did you get it from when I edited your site? It just looks so familiar... hmm... lol.

Anyway... I agree with Yesterdays News being good, and paper towels, and reptile carpeting. I never, ever recommend sand or wood chips.

[Greg West]

I will add my 2 cents to this topic.

USE WHEAT BRAN - Heres why:

Advantages:
-Digestible
-Controls the odours from poop etc, as it seems to cover the smell almost completely. My girlfriend always complained about the smell with sand, but I never hear any complaining about the smell any more.
-Cheap - a 25 lb bag is $20.00 and it lasts forever.
-Can be spot cleaned and remove the waste, and leave the rest
- When cleaning you dont have to totally rearrange the cage as you would with reptile carpet.

Disadvantages
-You can not leave standing water that has spilled in the cage for too long as it seems to mould/ go bad pretty fast
-dusty - your dragons dont look as brightly coloured in bran cause they tend to get dusty, but i don't think this is a problem other than asthetics

I would say no to sand obviously, but without my own personal proof

I would also say no to reptile carpet as if your dragon craps on the carpet when you aren't home and it sits there all day, it is most likely you will smell it as soon as you enter the room.

The most beneficial reasons for me to use wheat bran would be that it is easily digestible, and it keeps the smell down in the cage.

Hope that was an answer you were looking for.

Greg West
Cornelsworld Terrariums

[drewlowe]

Greg, I was under the impression that if your beardies poo smelled rancid that it is a sign of coccidia. I may be mistaken but i know it's one of the parasites.


chamitch- sand can build up over years by tounge flicking. Sand can be a slow killer (chronic impactation).

[Sean Day]

Good post Greg, I especially like this-

Originally posted by Greg West
I would say no to sand obviously, but without my own personal proof

Way to many people posting second hand info on the substrate issue with no personal experiences.

[Greg West]

As far as I know if the poo is really smelly, then yes it could be a sign of coccidia. If the poo is out in the open on top of reptile carpet or sand it will smell regardless whether or not the animal has coccidia.

I believe it is totally dependant on the food they eat as well as if there is a type of odour eater present. I feel the bran seems to act as an odour eater as it almost absorbs the moisture from the waste. I know that is is used for cleaning up oil spils as well, so it must have fairly good absorbtion qualities.

This is based on my own personal observations. Out of the people who have followed my recommendations, I only know of one person whjo wasn't totally happy with the change, and that was because there was standing water that was left in the cage that made the bran go bad.

I spray my beardies every morning with salad and their food, and I have never had a problem with the bran going bad. It seems to be only when a water bowl is used or lots of water is poured into the cage.

Greg West
Cornelsworld Terrariums

[manville]

I use sand and i think it is good because it is the most natural and most of them live in sand not special kind of stuff you guys buy...ive been using sand for quite a long time and none of my lizards of geckos die yet...so there is no proof that sand is bad...i think sand is good...natural looking..

[Greg West]

That is nice that you think that because the sand looks nice, and is plain that it works for you. It may work for you, but that doesn't mean that sand isn't building up in your beardies digestive system. You may or may not ever have a problem, but in my mind I wont take that risk. Bearded dragons do not really live on sand, and they don't come from a desert. Most of the areas from what I understand is a dry area, but not that sandy

"Australia has very little sandy desert country. Most of our dry country is low bushes and hard baked earth, or stony plains of laterite, limestone or sandstone. "http://coloherp.org/cb-news/archive/nature/ozdragon.php

Its up to you what you want to keep your dragon(s) on but you should always do whats best for your dragon.

Also there is proof that dragons should not be kept on sand, but it may not be a problem with every dragon, but why risk it if you don't have to.

Greg West
Cornelsworld Terrariums

[Bighead]

Originally posted by manville
I use sand and i think it is good because it is the most natural and most of them live in sand not special kind of stuff you guys buy...ive been using sand for quite a long time and none of my lizards of geckos die yet...so there is no proof that sand is bad...i think sand is good...natural looking..

My goodness... you really need to look through these forums.
1) It may be natural looking, but it's not natural. They don't live on loose sand.
2) Because your lizards haven't died yet, doesn't mean they won't. They are very likely getting slowly impacted over the years.
3) There is tons of proof and tons of experiences from other owners about their beardies getting impacted and dying.

Why in the world would you take a risk like that? Just because it looks nicer to you?

[Jawz]

ok not a huge sand supporter but what if u fed a cricketless diet... there is very little chance the beardie would eat sand because everything is fed in bowls. They could track sand into the bowls and onto the food but not that much id think. Comments?

[Dragon_Slave]

Ok... now, take what manville said and put it in perspective as sand being pinkies. I know this is a totally different thread, but think as the grains of sand being pinky bones, it builds up in the bearded dragons systems and can and will eventually cause an impaction, which is capable of killing your dragon.

I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that sand and pinkies are bad for dragons. *sigh*

[Sean Day]

I have never been to Australia but I would assume be it hard packed, bushes, lime stone or whatever there would be plenty of sand particles, dust and dirt to tongue flick.

[drewlowe]

I'm sooooo tired of debating every week on a different thread about sand.

These beardies we have in captavity are OUR own resposibility. It's our job to provide them with the correct care that they deserve. Captive beardies should out live thier wild cousins. Because, we try to take anything that's harmful to them away. Can a beardie that is "free" (living in thier natural enviroment) die of impactation? Sure they can. But why would you want to risk that for your own beardie.

[Sean Day]

I am not saying sand is a good or bad substrate for beardies, I don't even keep them.

I just don't think sand is bad because it is sand. I don't believe they eat it because they can. I do believe (from my own experience) that a healthy herp will pass small amounts from tongue flicking.
Example a newb comes on here and says my whatever is impacted. Within minutes you have people saying of course it is you have it on sand. So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?
I just think people should look a little harder at their husbandry as a whole rather then just throwing the sand out and think everything is fixed.

[Bighead]

With all do respect, it appears that you have nothing to back this up. I used to have the exact same opinion. What it all boils down to for me is that if there is sand in the enclosure, your beardie WILL ingest a certain amount, large or small. Sand can and does cause impaction. This is the case when beardies have some sand, or all sand as a substrate. I doubt that EVERY beardie that has sand as a substrate will eventually die as a result, but the FACT is, SOME DO. I don't know how large or small of a risk that is, and I'm not sure anybody does, but I am not willing to risk it with mine. It is up to you regarding yours. Best of luck.

[drewlowe]

Big Head, well said.

[manville]

hey man guess what i dont have a beardie i am talking about my lizards...sorry aboutt he confusion...i do not believe that beardies live in nice and proper environment..there are lots of little small particle out there they may ingest..i agree with you guys saying the sand could be bad but st the same time i am not having any problems at all having my lizards and geckos having sand as their substrate...I agree with all of you guys though..i am not disagreeing with you ppl..

[Bighead]

You're right. In the wild they don't live in sterile and safe conditions, but as drewlove pointed out above, captive beardies live longer lives than wild ones. In my opinion, there is no reason to risk shortening the life of a beardie because they have shorter lives in the wild.

If you weren't debating about sand as a substrate for beardies than you should be in the leopard gecko forum, and guess what: it goes the same for leopard geckos and fat tails (if one of those is what you have). Here is the last thread about substrates in there: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33099

The fact that you have never had a lizard die means only that you haven't been keeping herps as long as 90% of the people using this forum. If you have had them die, even if you had them for a long time, you probably haven't done a necropsy to reveal the cause of death. You have far less proof that sand doesn't cause impaction than anybody here has that it does.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but for me, sand will never be an option. Again, best of luck with whatever you choose.

[Dragon_Slave]

I wish I could find that post of Eyespy's. The one with the picture of the baby beardie next to a cup of sand that she removed from his stomach. It was the most horrid thing I'd ever seen, and why anyone would take that chance is crazy.

As far as the land in Australia goes, it is HARD, COMPACT DIRT. It is not loose sand like you'd find on a beach. And I agree with Bighead... I would NOT risk my dragons life just because sand is cheap and easy to clean. So are papertowels.

[Sean Day]

I don't really think you are getting what I am trying to say, which is my fault. What I am trying to say is question the husbandry advice others give you. This applies to anything you keep.

if there is sand in the enclosure, your beardie WILL ingest a certain amount, large or small
I agree fully


3) There is tons of proof and tons of experiences from other owners about their beardies getting impacted and dying
Just because you can have a wackload of people quoting eyespy doesn't necessarily mean it is good advice. Don't get me wrong I find eyespys posts very informative, but when she posts it she can answer the follow up questions. Look through these forums and you will see most impactions where from inexperienced keepers. Ask the ones against sand and I think you will be surprised how many are talking from experience.

Again I am not saying it is good or bad. I am saying people should stand back and take a look at their husbandry as whole when a problem occurs.

Sorry to thegino for taking this away from what he really wanted to enquire about. I will now go back to lurker mode and try to avoid all the one sided sand debates.

[Bighead]

Let me ask you again- what proof do you have that it doesn't cause impaction? Any?
If there is some proof that sand has caused impaction, whether it's one out of five beardies or one out of 500, there is no reason to take that risk.
You are right, we all need to look at our husbandry as a whole. If there is anything we can do to (even potentially) extend the qualty and length of our animals' lives, we should do it.

P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.

[Sean Day]

Originally posted by Bighead
Let me ask you again- what proof do you have that it doesn't cause impaction? Any?

Ple3ase show me where I said it doesn't cause impaction

Originally posted by Bighead
P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.

Please show me where I said this.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by Bighead

P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.

Big head i just really like quoting you. LOL


ME, ME, ME, (lol) I've had first hand experince. No where near as much as eyespy, but i've had my own. I learned from my leos that sand is bad. My leos have been impacted with sand, calci-sand, and lizard litter. Now i know leos and beardies aren't the same, but i'm going to do a little comparison.

As a side note luckly I haven't had any of my leos die from impaction, because i noticed the signs and got them off the substrate asap. Well the lizard litter almost got them, they were pooping that stuff out for 2 weeks.

Ok chitlen (mealworms) can easily break down in leos, but beardies have a hard time breaking chitlen down and beardies run a higher risk of impaction. How do i know this cause my boyfriend had 2 beardies die of impaction from mealworms. Ok this is where common sence comes in. If a leo can get impacted by all those things doesn't it seem like beardies would to. I'm sorry but all the information i have ever gathered from the use of sand points me in the direction of not using it. Since these beardies are in my care i'm not going to let them have that chance to get impacted.

My beardies are my babies i would be absoultly heart broken if i ever lost one for something i could have prevented, and i would never forgive myself. So i take that extra step to try and prevent it, just like an overprotective mother.

Jamie

[Bighead]

Sean Day- You were implying, in your first posts, that sand is an acceptable substrate to use: Originally posted by Sean Day
I do believe (from my own experience) that a healthy herp will pass small amounts from tongue flicking.


You were also saying that a beardie won't thrive without a place to dig: Originally posted by Sean Day
So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?


You were also implying that few people have first hand experience but eyespy:
Originally posted by Sean Day
Just because you can have a wackload of people quoting eyespy doesn't necessarily mean it is good advice.


I may have misunderstood what you meant by these quotes, but it doesn't sound to me like you disagree with the idea of using sand, which is what this post is about.

[Bighead]

Thanks Jamie :)

[Sean Day]

Big Head this is getting silly, all you are doing is putting words into my mouth that were never there to begin with. Write what you want but I am done with this thread.

[drewlowe]

Ok we've went over the bad aspects of sand. I want to hear from people that has good things to say about it and why. That way people can see the pros and cons of using sand and decied for themselves on wether they should use it.

[Bighead]

The most positive thing about sand that I've seen is that they really do like to dig around in it. It's fun to watch them toss it around too.

[Dragon_Slave]

They can dig around and play in ''Yesterdays News'', too. They love it!

[Senator Gracken]

Instead of starting a new thread in the boa forum would bran work well with ATBs?

[Big Mike]

I don't know...you might as well ask this in the boa forum.

Don't' ATBs require a higher humidity? Bran & humidity do not mix well. I'd suggest a substrate that will tolerate a higher humidity.

[tHeGiNo]

Wow! I just came back to see this thread has gone where I wanted it to, it was dead at first! I love debates.

Ok now, Sean. For the record, I am not new to keeping reptiles, especially bearded dragons (they were actually my first lizard). I just wanted to bring the subject to the public. Also to get some feedback from people who have been in the hobby longer then myself.

Now, my reasoning for quoting Eyespy is because I myself have not had a beardie die from impaction. Nor am I a vet (yet) to list several cases in which I have determined the cause of death to be impaction. In eyespys case, being a veterinarian (I believe), she knows first hand the effects of impaction. I am not one to make myself look like I know what I am talking about when I don't. Thats why I made a reference to Eyespy.

On the other hand, do not get me wrong. I am a firm believer that a healthy bearded dragon can pass certain amounts of sand. However, a healthy beardie still has wet insides, and sand sticks to wet places. This, through common sense, would lead me to believe that over time, sand can and will build up internally.

So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?

I don't think he meant they can thrive without a place to burrow. Rather, I think he is implying that a healthy beardie should be able to pass small amounts of sand. If he is not passing this, then there are other husbandry errors too. At least thats what I think he meant.

i do not believe that beardies live in nice and proper environment..there are lots of little small particle out there they may ingest..i agree with you guys saying the sand could be bad but st the same time i am not having any problems at all having my lizards and geckos having sand as their substrate...I agree with all of you guys though

These kind of comments really make me feel bad for reptiles in captive husbandry. Attitudes like that really bother me. Just because something has not happened to your lizard yet, it does not mean it is not possible, nor likely. I don't understand why people have this attitude. Really, you readily admit you understand the effects of using sand yet you continue to use it? I honestly feel people with your attitude should not be permitted to house reptiles. In ANY situation, the needs and care of the reptile comes FIRST! It is a PRIVILAGE to keep such wonderful creatues, and just because there are risks in wild husbandry that does not mean we should not do everything and anything possible to make sure our herps are perfectly healthy and safe.

*sigh* Sorry for making that into a rant.

If there is some proof that sand has caused impaction, whether it's one out of five beardies or one out of 500, there is no reason to take that risk.

EXACTLY! Even if there is one in every thousand beardies, why take a risk if you do not have to and there are other alternatives!

Ok we've went over the bad aspects of sand. I want to hear from people that has good things to say about it and why. That way people can see the pros and cons of using sand and decied for themselves on wether they should use it.

Fair enough. The only good think I can think of about sand, besides the fact that some people think it looks better, is that the beardies can burrow in it. Aside from that, I cannot see why anyone likes it, lol. Personally, I hate the stuff! I am one who is obsessed with everything being perfectly clean, and its impossible with sand! There is always garbage all over the place, and it stinks when its wet!

[tHeGiNo]

Oh and as Mike suggested, you might not want to use bran with ATB's. As he said, it does not mix well with humidity, and they require fairly high humidity levels.

[Jawz]

would bare bottom be bad?

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
EXACTLY! Even if there is one in every thousand beardies, why take a risk if you do not have to and there are other alternatives!

I agree 100%!!!!!!

Fair enough. The only good think I can think of about sand, besides the fact that some people think it looks better, is that the beardies can burrow in it. Aside from that, I cannot see why anyone likes it, lol. Personally, I hate the stuff! I am one who is obsessed with everything being perfectly clean, and its impossible with sand! There is always garbage all over the place, and it stinks when its wet!

The reason i asked that was so it wouldn't be a one sided debate. Most long term keepers are aware of the risks and some are not. This way a new keeper can come to these threads and see for themselfs the good points and bad points of a subject, and decide for themselfs.

I aparently from my post dislike sand and in no way am i for it. Just because it looks nice and they like to burrow in it no way compares to the immedite and long term effects that it "could" cause. Exspecially when there are alternatives.

Jamie

Oh and Eyespy is a vet tech or was one at a time, and now she rehabs at home. (i belive that is what she has said in the post that she has wrote)

[gregandsarah]

Ok I've posted this topic on other beardie columns and the general consensus is that unless your dealling with a juvenille. Washed and filtered play sand is just fine. I've read a lot also and 9 times out of 10 this is what others say. I've since put my newly aquired 4 year old in sand.

Has anyone actually heard of an adult suffering compaction from sand. Almost everyone states that it's fine.

[gregandsarah]

Even this site's care page says sand is fine for adults. I'm super protective of my dragon and love him dearly but I think sand is not that big an issue with an adult. babies and juveniles sure be cautious.

[slitherchick]

the main problem i see with putting sand in my beardie's home is that i'm going to get the urge to crawl in there with him and pretend i'm at the beach. on an aside, i have found the perfect way of heating my hands up after i've been outside shovelling the mounds of snow... those ceramic heating lamps work darn well!

[Bighead]

"as anyone actually heard of an adult suffering compaction from sand. Almost everyone states that it's fine."

I suggest reading the rest of this post. There are many examples of adultbeardies dying from impaction and some of them are members of ssnakess.

[gregandsarah]

I actually have read most of them and except for talking about juveniles and leos I haven't heard a story of an adult beardie dying.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by gregandsarah
I actually have read most of them and except for talking about juveniles and leos I haven't heard a story of an adult beardie dying.

Why because beardies that are around 10 years old people don't have necropsys done on them. So they won't know the exact cause of death.

The average life span of a captive beardie should be between 15-20 years old.

There is the possibility of chronic impactation, a slow build up over a long period of time. It blocks the nutrients that the beardie needs and can cause impaction over time.

When i had my beardies on sand i had a stomach wash. They put a small tube into the stomach and pump saline solution in and out a few times and keep the last sample to send of to the lab. I was there the whole time this was going on and i seen the final results and there was a few grains of sand in there. So that leads me to belive that the lining can hold onto grains of sand and over time chronic impaction could result.

I'm not one to risk that chance so their substrate is switched.