Parasite transmision [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Steeve B

01-04-04, 08:42 PM

2 monitors living together, funny thers often a subordinat animal that cant perform normaly, the dominant gets more food better basking and hiding, the other stresses out feeds less until one day you end up with a sick monitor, do you relly think treating him will solve anything?
I whod just seperat them, I bet you 2 months from now fecals will be negative. sure there will always be newbies or someone to advise you about deworming, most of them dont even understand monitor behaviour much less parasitism, the truth is treating is futile if you dont solve the problem at the base, your monitor will become sick again, with the same parasit problem, how is that posible youv just treated him? well you havent treated his food surce! and you have no control on all the little criters hanging in your monitors cage.
sorry Dom but iv seen way to many pepoles killing there monitors with the assitence of a vet, to advise you in that direction.

a very well known exotic vet, was desperate lossing animals after animals to a strange IBD virus, it took me a week to realise he was washing and killing his colection with javel, yet this guy had a TV show?!?!

skinheaddave

01-05-04, 06:50 AM

Once again, Steve, I am forced to agree with most of what you say but still disagree with how far you are taking it. Certainly it is true that stress can leave an animal succeptable to infections, parasites etc. Certainly it is true that if the stressful factors are removed, some problems will take care of themselves. Others, however, require medical attention.

Never treating any animals for anything is just about as silly as always treating everything with the harshest medication. The same thing holds true for people. A lot of people have taken a lot of antibiotics for infections they could clear up themselves with some basic care. That being said, antibiotics have cured a lot of people who would have died otherwise.

The lesson to learn is to take the advice of vets, as well as self-proclaimed experts, with a grain of salt.

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-05-04, 07:54 AM

25+ years of dealing with 10.000s reptiles, I stop treating them only 6 years ago, I started treating the problem that caused them to fail, never had better results.
Aim not telling peoples to not treat a sick animal, all aim saying is, do what needs to be don first, your vet won’t tell you how to keep your animal, heck he probably doesn’t know anyways.
Maybe I am taking it to far for your understanding! However I can’t count the number of parasite infested, skin and bones! Snakes and monitors that leaves my facility in perfect health, and the only treatment was basic husbandry. Only one dead liver damage from parasites. Can you say as much?
The lesson to be learn, not taking my advice will often lead to one more animal in your freezer.
I gain nothing from sharing my experience ( except insults)

skinheaddave

01-05-04, 08:13 AM

Forget it. It is becomming clear you are another FR. Same attitude, same arguments.

Cheers,
Dave

EDIT: Perhaps that is unfair. My point is basically that 25+ years experience does not completely invalidate the combined experience of everyone else out there as well as the entire body of knowledge of the scientific and hobbyist community.

Steeve B

01-05-04, 08:42 AM

right aim still leaurning every day, and take anyone view into consideration, something my arizonian friend dose not.

its clear to me that you have much knowledg about animals, but pleas stop rubbing my sholders befor an insult.

what you call attitude and arguments, is in fact experience!
Iv never argued FR simply because you cant argue with experienc, those that do, obviously dont have it.
Dave chill out my friend, you dont have to agree with me to be my friend, and I dont need to agree with you to apreciate you, heck I dont agree with half what Bayless says, still hes my best varanid body and the person I most respect.

Dom

01-05-04, 08:51 AM

Tz fopr all the oppinions guys .. I apreciate it .. Nice little debate as well .. both prooved very good points..

Steeve B

01-05-04, 08:56 AM

May I point out, aim the only one on this thread who addressed the real problem and solution, this alone shows a higher level of expertise.

Now anyone can debate on rather you shod treat or not, the facts remains the same!
The information I give you, is to help your monitors, not to be a smart guy, not to be arrogant, not to be a know it all, and surly not to make you feel bad about husbandry faults. You know I respect you Dom and will only help.

skinheaddave

01-05-04, 09:33 AM

Steve,

I have met people with life-long experience in their respective fields who are still modest. And yes, you can argue with experience. You said that you only stopped treating within the last 6 years. that means that 6 years ago (still 19+ years of experience and many thousands of animals) you would have been saying something different and using your experience to validate it.

It is one thing to come forth and say "listen, I've done this before, these were my results, this is my theory" and quite another to come forth and say "look at all these fools who know nothing, whereas I know the whole truth." What, for example, is the point of your last post?

I can't argue with you that husbandry is the most important thing by far. Even my modest 5 years experience and a couple dozen vertebrate animals will attest to that. I am also not going to argue that husbandry will get some very sick animals well again, as my few years experience can also attest to that. I also know, however, that some parasites are not going to be overcome by husbandry alone and that some medication has proven effective in their treatment.

Like you, I am saying what I say to help out the monitors. People should be aware of the value of vetrenarian care, just as they should be aware of proper husbandry. I don't want people to dismiss a potentially valuable tool.

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-05-04, 09:42 AM

Dave I didnt argue what you said, and your right I have very little pepoles skills, aim very much aware of this and try to not show it, but the good news is aim improuving thanks to guys like you.
however I have to admit my english has not improuved much.

V.hb

01-05-04, 01:05 PM

Before I comment, I just want to say iam no expert on monitors, nor parasites but I have some similiar cases to point out..

I think what Steve is trying to say is you must treat the initial problem BEFORE treating the parasites.

A stressed animal that has parasites will only be even further weakend due to its stress while housed with another animal thats further up on the pole of dominance. Worming this animal is more like poisoning it if its not digesting its food well due to the parasites and stress.

By seperating the animals, the weaker of the two will become stronger mentally, and physically as the stress is no longer present. So keeping them seperate for some time the animal becomes strong enough to treat, and it for myself has always been more successful than keeping them together.

Also by seperation you can monitor (no pun intended) the other animals condition to see if he/she needs to be treated as well.

Steeve B

01-05-04, 01:58 PM

This is why I cant help others! there will always be one of these ppl, that will follow me on every forum and say something incorrect . sure they cant give me tangeble arguments, how frostrating it must be.

by the way your rudi was force fed for a month

skinheaddave

01-05-04, 04:47 PM

Steve,

No worries, mate. I'm perfectly content to let this all pass. I'm not exactly finishing school material myself. :D

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-05-04, 04:58 PM

Dave I think your posts where very good and informative, the important is that Dom gets what he needs out of it.

nice meeting you :)

Dom

01-05-04, 06:35 PM

Steve.. I have always respected and enjoyed every post on the forums.. you have always made me think and evaluate every situation to its fullest.. I thank you for that .. I will follow your advise

Dave .. I do not know you but your advise is sound and makes very good sense.. i agree that vet help can be important but I am one to do everything i can to not use any meds if I do not have too..

I have had many problems with meds before and will detour anyway I can from tehm .. but this is just my oppinion

Dom

Shane Tesser

01-05-04, 09:04 PM

Ive had to edit this thread...a couple times...just glad to see its all come out well in the end :D

tHeGiNo

01-06-04, 12:42 AM

mbayless

01-06-04, 02:20 AM

Parasitism is a war of parasite vrs host; many parasites do not kill their host, as it is not beneficial for them to do so = mutualism. When an animal is not at its prime, the parasites can bring it down health speaking and in a few rare (wild and captive) cases killed them outright (see Young, 1965: ticks killed V. niloticus and V. albigularis 125+ ticks per lizard and literally suffocated them), but those are rare. Internal parasites feed on nutrients digested by host, and pass their eggs through the cloaca to further and future hosts - that is ALL they do....perpetuate their parasitic species via the hosts (and often different trophic levels and species as well)....a healthy Varanus will be able to keep its parasites in check - a sick one cannot as it is fighting health issues simutaneously. Over-medication is a common cause of mortality in Varanus, and several vets I know have said dosages should be reduced 50%-75% current dosages given...like MD's, DVM's are also still testing the waters of medications and dosages to give - usually via guinea pig standards = give high dosages and work your way down to levels kill parasites/infection, providing the host is not already dead from heavy meds....same old story: i.e. 100% way to kill Bubonic Plague in 1601 England = burn the patient (and plague) up (alive and dead) = now: isolate and treat with medications but mortality is still high and kills the fleas, rats and vermin caused it.

As for experience, nothing is better than that for learning, however difficult it can be. And yes, friends can disagree on things as Steve and I do sometimes, but we agree to be friends first, and I value his friendship whether he has/had Varanus or not...and it is mutual.

cheers,
markb

Campbellvenomou

01-09-04, 06:42 PM

guys want a mind boggling view at parasite - host relationships, read Parasite Rex.........

Hey Mark, whats up man? How are ya feeling?

SHvar

01-10-04, 11:54 AM

Ive buried too many monitors myself getting a vet to treat an animal that has a positive reading but has no reason to be treated. A parasite that harms its host or kills it is an unsucessful parasite, they and the host live symbiotically.
I got a 4.5 ft bosc and his female cage mate (30 inches) treated (for preventative medicine) after raising them both for 5 years, the male died from a dehydrated failed liver because improper husbandry, the female died the same within a few months or so, same thing, the Cue De Gras was the the treatment, the cause was my husbandry.
I had 3 subadult imported BTs raised from much smaller animals, I made a mistake with one that was skinny and covered in ticks at first by getting him dewormed as soon a his weight was up to 11lbs at 4.5 ft, they worms got much worse and his health took a nose dive rapidly, he died, cause wasnt healthy enough to be treated and improper husbandry. I had a female BT was 4.5 ft and 12lbs in beautiful shape the vet on a checkup convinced me to treat her preventively, I listened to him as she was in much better health than some of the others, a week or less later she went down hill and kept going that way though many trips to the vet to try and save her over a few weeks, the worms multiplied like mad to overcome the poison, she dehydrated from the medication and improper husbandry, she refured to eat to gain back what she needed and only got worse she was put down to stop her suffering.
I never got an animal treated afterwards for internal parasites, and theyve all lived, my husbandry is not perfect, its a whole lot better than it was then, I dont trust the stuff because its a medication to treat a symptom, not to treat a problem, fix the root of the problem and the symptoms go away on their own.

skinheaddave

01-10-04, 02:24 PM

I see what people are getting at, but you're taking it one step too far and butchering the terminology at the same time.

mutualism = an interaction wherein both parties benefit

symbiosys = a mutualistic relationship, often obligate rather than faculative

Neither of these reflect parasitism very well. Parasitism, by definition, involves benefit to one party (the parasite) and harm to the other (the host). In some cases, the harm can be so minimal that you could almost consider the relationship commensalism:

commenasalism = an interaction wherein one party benefits and one party experiences no effect.

This is what I think people are trying to get at. That being said, harm is not measured by death alone. You can have a bloody big tapeworm in your own gut and still live. I wonder if you would be so keen to waive off medical treatment for yourself, though, under the argument that as long as you ate plenty of food, there was no real harm being done. :)

Of course that's not a really good comparison, since humans have a relatively pathetic ability to heal ourselves. I am sure a monitor in proper conditions will not only be fine with a parasite load that would kill us but will even heal itself. This will work to a degree, but there are definitely parasites out there that are a problem and can be treated with vetrenarian care. I guess the question there is do you just leave ticks on your monitor or do you remove them? After all, they won't kill the monitor and there is a chance they'll fall off on their own. Most of us probably are comfortable dealing with external parasites, though.

Cheers,
Dave

reverendsterlin

01-10-04, 02:54 PM

I'm with you Dave, parasites kill and symbiots don't. I will say that often parasites in small numbers don't kill or at least take a very long time to do so but cause harm either way.

SHvar

01-10-04, 10:31 PM

A sucessful parasite does not kill or harm its host when the host is healthy it suffers nothing from the parasite. The safest dewormer (for certain bugs) is Panacur but it is still a poison, can you with your limited experience honestly tell me that you know when your animal is feeling good enough and healthy enough to treat it safely? I know with over 12 years raising monitors its a gamble, and it may only remove some of them, because the reading 6 months from now may be positive and it may be negative. The only reason I would treat a reptile for internal parasites is if the species (specific) is detrimental to the health of your animal, you have to remember the stuff is poison, it will dehydrate your animals organs, the animal, make it sick, and make it go off of food for some time (depends how bad the infestation is). The choice is up to the owner, but Ive gambled when my husbandry wasnt as good or near as good as it is today and the monitors lost, they lost worse than I did. I never had a sick or dieing WC monitor after I stopped deworming period, they did great afterwards. As for ticks I always removed them one at a time with tweezers, mites I used Black Knight.
The best way to avoid these problems as always stated before, save your money and save the wild animals, buy a CBB animal, there is a whole world of difference. Good luck.

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by SHvar
A sucessful parasite does not kill or harm its host when the host is healthy it suffers nothing from the parasite.

So if a host in good health acquires a parasite and then falls into ill health because its nutrients are being diverted, does this support your theory that parasites cause no harm, since it was only the ill monitor that suffered the effects?

If all you want me to do is kowtow to your monitor experience then fine, you have way more experience than me. Happy? If you want to actualy stand behind your gross misunderstanding of parasitism then I suggest you do a little reading first. I may not have years of experience with them, but there are people out there who have and who have written articles and books and whatnot. If you can do a serious literature review and then come back and tell me again that your above statement is true, we will have something serious to discuss.

Cheers,
Dave

SHvar

01-11-04, 11:21 AM

I offered experience to explain why you dont just poison your animals every time they arent doing as good as you want them to do. Never treat them as if its maintance or preventative medication, its poison. You should never give deworming meds to an animal unless for that species the meds are proven safe, not considered safe by some people. Never treat a reptile for worms unless its health condition requires that the worms be gone for it to be healthy. A parasite is in 90% of cases species specific and in many cases specific to a certain age or life cycle. Find the real problem, treat the real problem, the cause of the problem, those animals have had parasites since before they were imported with no ill effects, theres a serious husbandry issue to be solved long before medication is needed.

"your theory that parasites cause no harm"
Lets try this again, parasites do not harm healthy hosts period, fix the real problem before you try to poison your sick animal, and prove it needs treated before you poison it on purpose.

"If all you want me to do is kowtow to your monitor experience
then fine, you have way more experience than me. Happy?"

Ive buried enough monitors to know that you dont just treat an animal for parasites unless there is a specific health risk that species is causing your animal not to treat because you think it might be a parasite problem.

" If you want to actualy stand behind your gross misunderstanding of parasitism then I suggest you do a little reading first. I may not have years of experience with them, but there are people out there who have and who have written articles and books and whatnot. If you can do a serious literature review and then come back and tell me again that your above statement is true, we will have something serious to discuss."

Ive read the articles on parasites the books etc and then after I thought it was safe to treat the animals years ago I had it done just that. You know the animals taught me more than the books ever did, since the only monitor experts in this world are monitors, Ill believe what they teach me. And if you read those articles completely they state "if determined to need treated for heath reasons that make the parasite dangerous by a professional vet..."

Ive learned my lesson and buried those animals because of my lack of understanding at that time of what those meds can do to the animal. You go ahead and bury yours but dont just tell someone else to do so also, because your gonna be the one having the finger pointed at when their animal dies.
You argued against Steeve B on this, you argued against Vincent on this, you argued against me on this you argued against others on this, but you have no experience or knowledge to back up your claims, just what some article or book says, whos talking theories???

asphyxia

01-11-04, 11:36 AM

I know this: this thread is a great source of information.
I also know that it is wise to have lots of different views on a particulay subject, and believe that all posters have some excellent points.

Brian

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 02:27 PM

Not once have I argued that a lot of parasites can be treated through husbandry alone. In my limited experience I know this to be true.

Not once have I argued that treatment without appropriate husbandry can solve the problem. I know in my limited experience that this is not the case.

Not once have I argued that all monitors should be treated for all parasites. I know in my limited experience that this is not the case.

Not once have I indicated that the medication used is somehow mild or harmless in and of itself. It wouldn't work very well if it was.

Not once have I even suggested a course of treatment, other than consulting with a vet should an animal be doing poorly despite correct conditions. Something you yoruself have indicated.

All I have argued against is this sweeping generalization that ALL parasites are harmless as long as the host is healthy. This is simply not true. I will say it once more. If you can't address THIS ONE POINT that I have been trying to get at then don't bother. There are parasites that are quite capable of making a healthy animal unhealthy, regardless of "environmental" conditions.

Perhaps an analogy would be in order. You guys come out and say "all cars are left-hand drive." A very believable argument if you live in North America. Also false. I come out and say "yes, most cars in North America are left-hand drive, but in some countries they are right-hand drive." The argument that comes back is "what do you know, you haven't driven as long as us. Have you even driven one of these supposed right-hand cars (I have, but lets pretend that I haven't). If you go and start driving on the wrong side of the road you will end up killing people. We aren't about to stand by and let you tell people to kill people by driving on the wrong side of the road." Do you see how the counter-arguments have absolutely nothing to do with the original point?

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-11-04, 02:31 PM

Adult female ornatus, I obtained this female as adult and kept her 18 months before she died. The cause of death was obstruction of reproductive system, she was kept to cold for 4-5 years and never allowed to cycle properly, you can see calcified follicles, you can also see from the color and thickness of her blood vessels on her fat bodies, the poor circulation that caused her death. When I obtained this female, all her bones could be seen I hade to force feed her a full month as she was to week to even drink, during this time she vomited and defecated numerous parasite, hook worm and tape worms could bee seen with the naked eye, other parasite where detected with 100x microscope, no drugs have ever been used on her, of special interest are the scars left on the lugs (white dots) by a parasite called Lungworm (Entomelas sp.) a post mortem exam reveled no parasites what so ever, this proving to me for the xxx time that given a chance monitors flush out there parasites.
This can be somewhat explained by first;
Monitors have high metabolism, they eat a lot and digest fast making it difficult for parasites to be resilient, much like a full belied leach on your leg that lets go and drifts with water, parasites are flushed in the same manner with feaces.
Next; monitors bask at high heat, some parasite (not all) cant handle higher temperatures, this is the case with Lungworms, they die when the monitors bask at high temps, in numbers they start decomposing in the liver casing sever infection that will ultimately destroy the liver and lead to the death of your monitor (will post a photo of this next)
However in this case the ornatus completely recovered from its parasite infestation and started cycling like all monitors shod, this killed her as her reproductive system was already damaged from years of neglect care.

http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/959croc_bite_363-med.jpg

Steeve B

01-11-04, 03:05 PM

This was a wild couth adult female croc monitor, she arrived 2 years ago parasite infested, she started feeding well and flushed all her parasite, this apparently went well as she cycled and produced 5 good eggs 11 months after arriving, then cycled again and laid good eggs before she died in an accident (over heating) Post mortem exam showed her severely damaged liver again caused by Lungworms, however this time in large numbers, no parasite was fond in any of her organs. This female was never treated with drugs, if she had been when I got her shed most likely who’d have died as her liver was way to damaged to cope with any drug.
Aim not an anti drug, I just want varanophils to be informed that vet medicine is still in its infant stag, do not expect to much from it, drug administration is still not fully understood, dosage (like Mark said) needs to be addressed, dosage is way to high for varanid and even more so for snakes. Sure vets need us to consult them if progress is to be made, however they need to start respecting the fact that our animals are important to us, and we don’t want them to be used as test dummies, most vets I know really don’t care about my reptiles as I do, they killed many with; Lets try this aim sure it will work!! Mentality. Therefore staying away from them has given me better results, aim sure one day the tables will be turned, until then Il play it safe.
Of particular interest; look at her healthy reproduction system, good blood circulation to the fat bodies, the brown discoloration on them is a result of her heating accident.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/959Copie_de_Photo_123-med.jpg

PaulBar

01-11-04, 03:14 PM

Heres my two cents on parasites and reptiles.

Most reptiles carry some kind of parasite load. Only when the reptile is not taken care of well enough will the parasites be able to manifest themselves to the point of causing adverse symptoms in the reptile. (ie: not eating, weight loss, death, etc)

So don't medicate unless you have symptoms, since meds are poisons and cause their own issues.

If you feed your animal well, with nutritious food and provide a clean, well heated environment, you won't see the adverse symptoms of parasites in your animals and you won't need to medicate them. Don't fix the problem if you don't have one.
Another words don't medicate a healthy animal unless there are symptoms.

Paul

PaulBar

01-11-04, 03:17 PM

PS

The best med I have found is Panacur. I have had vets recommend Metronizdazole (Flagyl) and it did nothing.
Panacur cured the issue in days.

P

PaulBar

01-11-04, 03:19 PM

I also agree that most Vets have no idea how to treat reptiles, even Vets who claim to be reptile experts.

They just go to Dr. Gecko and pull down information from there and use it to charge you big bucks to do a cure you could do yourself.

P

Steeve B

01-11-04, 03:27 PM

Paul what your saying demonstrate exactly my point, Panacur and Metronidazol are medications used in the treatment of entirely different species of parasites, when good identification is made only one of these medications will be used, the problem is vets will try at random ether one then suggest the other if the first fails. This is called the shut gun therapy, and it kills monitors by damaging the liver and kidneys, if they are lucky they die fast, most will take years to do so, and your vet won’t know or will not admit his fault.

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 04:04 PM

Steve,

In my lone experience using a vet to help treat for parasites, great pain was taken to correctly identify the parasite in question and assign an appropriate treatment. Worked like a charm. The vet was fairly knowledgable about the species in question, but also consulted with other vets, did a lot of research, and relied on reading I had done as well. In short, the fault you find with vets is not universal. I guess I have been extremely lucky in that respect, but having a major vet college associated with my university helps.

BTW, your above case where you state that "some parasite (not all) cant handle higher temperatures" is basically all I'm getting at in this whole thread. You indicated a good mode by which monitors can cure their own problems, stated its effectiveness and backed it up with a case study, but still indicated that this is not going to be the case 100% of the time. I learned something useful because actual information, rather than rhetoric, was presented. Good job.

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-11-04, 05:41 PM

One case is good information, 100 cases is very valuable data!
I never ever give advising based on a single event, or from others experience, when I tell peoples breeding monitors on an insect diet doesn’t work, its because I have tried it in more then one angle, so when aim told that they need an insect diet, it doesn’t matter who tells me so, I no its not the case.
its peoples like you and me that allows this hobby to reach higher levels, when we don’t understand something we research until we do, once we have gained a better understanding, it who’d make no sense to retrograde because an expert tell you otherwise, you don’t need a PhD to achieve good results in any research. let me share a story about a kid visiting a vet school, the professor talked about a reoccurring case of salmonella infection affecting most of there parrots, no matter how careful the problem kept coming back, so here we are 15 kids taken on the grand tour and being explained how complex zoo vet work is behind the scene, we where allowed to ask question, so I asked, I see you are hatching red ears slider in the annex beside your birds, can this be a salmonella vector?!?! he didn’t answered, many years later I was at the same zoo for a job interview, there was a board of 6 peoples asking question, he was one of them, he said with a smile I remember you Steeve! turned to his college and said that’s the kid who fund our salmonella problem. he is now a vet professor at the Saint Hyacinth Veterinary school where he invited me often for an exercise with his students, most of witch (vets alike) don’t understand that years of herpetoculture can teach you things you cant learn from books.
to answer your question; 6 years ago before I stopped treating for parasite, I was advising to make proper identifications before using any drugs, and using half dosage. However this didn’t work as peoples relied on drugs instead of correcting there husbandry, this is why I keep it simple, you hade very good arguments, but how could you have known what I did without experiencing it.
Rgds

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 06:16 PM

Steve,

The flip-side of that is that herpetoculture will not teach you things that laboratory studies and field work will. There seems to be this sentiment in the monitor world that if you publish something you somehow invalidate it. As if word-of-mouth is the only valid information. An independence from published material, as a result of its general deficiency, seems to have turned into a backlash against formal science. Look at the result I got by simply suggesting that people use the correct terminology. What I fail to understand is how reading something you have typed is somehow considered more valid by some than me reading a book that a parasitologist has written.

It seems a bit absurd to me. You have a bunch of people who keep animals in boxes saying that their experience is valid and should be considered in the grand scheme of things. They then turn around and try to tell a community with thousands of collective years of experience in a formal scientific setting that their lives are all for naught. It is as if looking at a parasite through a microscope is somehow not a real experience, whereas watching a monitor become healthier is.

Cheers,
Dave

Steeve B

01-11-04, 07:09 PM

In my case the need to understand created the need to bring laboratory science in my hobby. The funny thing about this thread is these words makes both of us look like extremist, picturing you as Pro vet! And me as non vet! However its not true, in my life everything is about balance, its never been about how high on the ladder I was, aim quit content helping others climb no matter at what level I am.
I see many new herpers much smarter then me, no dough they will bring this hobby to a new level, I truly consider it an honor to share my experience with you guys.
What who’d be absurd who’d be to shut the door on common knowledge to glorify science.
Good science is archived via passion and is available to all. Not all published science is good, but how can one know without experience.

This thread as got to be the best Iv seen yet, but still someone will try to apply it to snakes and will fail, or will have monitors to debilitated to get better and die, Then will argue about its value thinking its misguided information.

Rgds

drewlowe

01-11-04, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by PaulBar
PS

The best med I have found is Panacur. I have had vets recommend Metronizdazole (Flagyl) and it did nothing.
Panacur cured the issue in days.

P

Different parasites = Different Meds.

You cant just say oh my (reptile) is sick i think it has parasites i'm going to treat it with panacur cause it worked last time. Why can't you do that, because each parasite is treated with it's own specific medication.

Yes i won't deny proper husbandry plays a HUGE roll in parasites. Sometimes you are incapable of parasites coming in to a speices i.e. food. Now i don't keep monitors but i have done alot of looking into on parasites and medication.

I'm using references from: Understanding reptile Parasites by Roger Klingenberg D.V.M.

If this parasite is present you should use the proper medication.
for example:

If my "herp" has coccidia i'm going to treat it with Albon (sulfadimethoxine), not panacur or any other kind of meds. it states to not use it if your animal is dehydrated or renal impaired. So if you know your "herp" has a parasite but isn't showing symptoms what happens if that parasite ends up "taking over" then your going to be too late to help it with meds.

Nematodes ( Round worms,Hookworms, Pinworms, and there are several others) These types should be treated with panacur.

amoebas& Flagellates- should be treated with flagyl.

Cestodes ( tapeworms, Flukes) Droncit.

When giving meds you should take extra precation. Panacur is hard on the liver and cause loss of eating. It's recommend to make sure you animal doesn't get dehydrated. So you can take that extra step and make sure your animal is getting proper nutriention at the time.

This book goes into more details about each med and parasite. When i was having troubles finding a reliable vet to treat my leos none of them where finding the correct solution so i left it to myself to do some research on this subject and to find the right meds to combat the parasite.

This is just my opionin on the matter. If any of my herps have a parasite i will find out which parasite it is and the proper medication to give. I will not allow my vet to just give me any medication unless it is the correct one.

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 07:50 PM

A few points:

I see how people might think that I am a mouthpiece for the vet profession. I have only gone to a vet once with a reptile (many times before when I had a dog in my childhood, for shots and the likes). I do, however, recognize the value of vets. Though I have only used my vet for one animal, I have consulted with her on other matters before. I have also consulted with many profs on various matters and, of course, have consulted with "hobbyists."

I feel that shutting the door on "common knowledge" is absurd, but shutting the door on science is also absurd. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

As for how you tell good science from bad science, there are more ways than just experience in the area being studied. You don't even have to understand a system to catch things like pseudo-replication or teleological arguments. If you do understand the system you can also catch things like sampling bias etc. By reading referenced papers, you can catch misrepresentations as well as poor citations.

A perfect example of the failings of both "common knowledge" and science is purple loosestrife. Common perception was that it was harming our ecosystems. People were up in arms over this invasive plant. A study came out with a key graph showing that it was indeed harming our ecosystems. This was then cited by all subsequent studies. Eventually someone went back and re-examined the original paper and discovered that the trend was non-significant. In other words, there was no effect. Since then, the scientific view of purple loosestrife is changing. The politicians are still pushing forth on old science, though, and peopel who are "experiencing" their back yards still hold this perception that it is harmful.

Cheers,
Dave

SHvar

01-11-04, 11:35 PM

The tecnology used in veternary science to reptiles is based mostly on commonly kept snakes, and turtles, and lizards. The parasites forund in monitors (internal) are completely different than whats found in snakes etc (except a few), the metabolisms and physiology of snakes a nd tutrltes and monitors are all different, so therefore only treatment and technology based off of monitors is useful to monitors and treating them. As Steeve said how can you suggest a treatment for an animal when the vets dont understand them. I have found 1 vet in miles of where I live that has a practice and is listed as a good herp vet by 2 independant websites that are based worldwide. He has a different view than the attitude to treat every symptom with meds, he believes with lizards that they need to be treated by proper husbandry first and afterwards look for symptoms. One point youve had parasites treated on one monitor youve had now for what 2 months? None the less, thats not enough time to find out if the treatment was sucessful in reducing, eliminating parasites, or causing organ damage to the animal. In a few years you may see results of these things, in 6 months or so you may see another positive test for the same parasites as the meds dont kill them some times, as a matter of fact they sometimes cause them to boom in population because their host was endangered by a poison. There are som e parasites dangerous to some hosts because they were not evolved to handle them, ie from different areas of the world, or that were species specific at one time and now need to evovloe to a new similar host. You know that 6 out of every 10 humans on the planet have pen sized parasitic worms all through their body but dont know it? They can cause harm by rupturing your bladder when they disconnect to reproduce, how healthy are you feeling???
In a few years or several years or even months when you animal dies have a good herp vet do a complete attopsy to find any parasites and let us know if the animals died of liver or kidney complications.

This is again why I always say save your money and buy captive bred animals only, there is a whole world of difference you need to experience to see why I say this, and one good point no parasites.

skinheaddave

01-11-04, 11:42 PM

I don't know if you were refering to me, but neither of the monitors I currently have (one I've had for about a year now, the other for about a week) have been treated for parasites.

Yes, a lot of the dangerous parasites are dangerous because they have not co-evolved with the host. That being said, all parasites come with a cost by definition. In some interactions it is negligable, in others deadly, in most somewhere inbetween.

Buying captive bred is always a good idea, though it does not ensure an absense of parasites and is impossible with many species.

Cheers,
Dave

mbayless

01-14-04, 02:59 AM

Hi All,
This is a fascinating thread here, and very enlightening to me. This week, a foot long V. rudicollis evacuated a fully adult tapeworm longer than itself into its water basin; the keeper gave me the tapeworm (in alcohol) so I can send it on to a Ph.D. who will identify to species level for me...and maybe note-worthy - who knows?

Anyway, this healthy juvenile V. rudicollis expelled this live adult tapeworm....without meds of any kind....this fits with what has been said here; in light that V. albigularis remove their own ticks from their own bodies, and in light of V. albigularis able to vomit up 100+ pin worms (I saw this ~1990) on its own, they seem to know how to take care of themselves, parasite loads and so on - and may help explain some reports of vegetation matter ingested (as dogs eat grass when they have a belly ache - grass acts like glass, breaking up stomach matter to pulp) may explain a pharmocological aspect of Varanus behavior never before thought of, and that is they might ingest plant matter to alter PH and add anti-biotic/meds to their own systems to alleviate parasite loads!?? Yes this is theory, but it might explain a few things too...just thinking out loud; maybe I shouldn't but these forums are for excvhanging thoughts, no matter how goofy they might be, right?
cheers,
markb

SHvar

01-15-04, 03:42 PM

Kill their animals by treating symptoms not the real problem.
You have no real knowledge on the subject of what parasitic treatments and parasites do or can do, period!! 2 months ago all you knew about monitors was that you tried a leash on yours and that in 1 year your medium sized monitor only grew from 15-25 inches.
You can quote the same line all you want from that book (the one you named was a lousey one at that) and so can anyone else, but in a few years or so tell us what happens to your monitor, or tell us in 10 years what happened to it, an autopsy (a very detailed one at that), when youve buried a few youll start to know why you did it and that it helps to understand what the real problems are not a quick and poisonous treatment.
This conversation is done, quit argueing with Steeve on this, hes forgotten more in less than 1 year about monitors than youll ever know about them.
After all you cant teach someone anything when theyve got a wall up to block the world out.
Youve used the terms everybody, the experts, all of those knowledgeable people, and other terms but who are these people you mention??? Forget it, Im done with this.

skinheaddave

01-15-04, 03:56 PM

SHVar,

I would serious consider actually reading my posts before you open your mouth. You seem to be taking my arguments not for what they say but what you would like them to say. Steve seems to understand what I'm getting at, so don't tell me what I can and can't discuss with him.

And as for the "experts" etc., I am not talking about experts in captive husbandry or vetrenarian care, since I am providing absolutely no specifics on the treatment of monitor lizards. I am recommending absolutely nothing to people beyond the idea of consulting with more than one source. If you need a reference on the idea that parasites have a cost associated with them, I'd recommend a highschool biology book -- since I believe that is covered even at that basic level. If you want a more thorough treatment, I'd recommend looking into one or more of the following texts:

Noble E.R., Noble G.A., Schad G.A. & MacInnes A.J. 1989. Parasitology _ the biology of animal parasites (6th edition) Leá & Febiger, London, U.K. 574 pages.

Shmidt, G.D. & Roberts, L.S. 1999. Foundations of Parasitology (6th edition), McGraw Hill, U.S.A. 670 pages.

Smmuel W.M., Pybus, M.J. & Kocan A.A.(eds.) 2001. Parasitic Diseases of Wild Mammals (2nd edition), Iowa State University Press, Ames, U.S.A. 559 pages.

all of which are used for the parasitology course at my university. You might also want to check out the Journal of Parasitology. Remember, all you need to verify to understand my claims is that parasites have a cost and that some of the costs are not negligable -- since that is all that I have said.

And if you want to go into post history, I would refer you to your own posts on kingsnake less than a year ago that suggested that vet care could be beneficial.

Cheers,
Dave

reptiguy123

01-15-04, 05:06 PM

I completely agree with Dave. I am quite annoyed that he spends so much time typing these big messages and giving information and sources (for the sole purpose to save the lives of herps, which is a good enough reason for me!) and nobody listens to him or at best argues with him. I think that the best thing would be to stop and read what others have typed, or else don't post a thread at all!

Siretsap

01-15-04, 05:17 PM

Reptiles can live with certain parasites all their lives in the wild without it affecting them till the point of death.

The problem with people who believe that since they have it in the wild, it shouln't matter that much in captivity is they don't fully understand how the parasite cycles work.

Most parasites we think reptiles could live with without problems (certain worms) lay eggs that are then extracted from the host's body by it's excrements. In the wild, chances the animal would walk twice in front of it's poop and lick it are very slim. In your restrained enclosure, the chances are greatly increased. This means taht your reptile licks it's poop, ingurges the eggs leading to an incresed amount of parasites in it's system.

Same thing with the parasites who have the eggs hatch out of the system, the worms can crawl through the lizard's skin and continue to propagate like this. Before you know it, your reptile is infected with a much higher dose of parasites than they would have in the wild, and often they system can't handle such a big amount of parasites at once.

All this means it is important to treat your reptiles to clean their systems as soon as you realise they are infected.

SHvar

01-16-04, 12:10 PM

"I am not talking about experts in captive husbandry or vetrenarian care"
" since I am providing absolutely no specifics on the treatment of monitor lizards."
" I am recommending absolutely nothing to people beyond the idea of consulting with more than one source. "

Read your own quotes, I wont even comment.

"If you need a reference on the idea that parasites have a cost associated with them, I'd recommend a highschool biology book"

A high school biology book gives no specifics as to species, host, but states that a parasite is usually species specific as well does not harm its host as it would not benefit to do so.

"Smmuel W.M., Pybus, M.J. & Kocan A.A.(eds.) 2001. Parasitic Diseases of Wild Mammals (2nd edition), Iowa State University Press, Ames, U.S.A. 559 pages."

Parasitic diseases of wild mammals, I wont even comment, you should know reptiles and mammal have completely different parasites, not even close to each other. I believe I quoted earlier that 6-7 of 10 people worldwide carry an infestation of pen sized worms around and the only way to know is when they break lose to mate and on rare ocaision they rupture your bladder wall. But thats the harm they do.

"Remember, all you need to verify to understand my claims is that parasites have a cost and that some of the costs are not negligable -- since that is all that I have said."

Your claims were that some parasites can harm or kill their host, so they should be identified and treated medically. If the animal in question suffers from health problems associated with parasites they are suffering from severe stress, dehydration, lack of food, etc, all of which are husbandry related at that point it is beneficial to get the animal into a proper stress free, recovery and healthy before suggesting any antiparasitic.

"And if you want to go into post history, I would refer you to your own posts on kingsnake less than a year ago that suggested that vet care could be beneficial."

Yes, lets read what the subject of that post was. An eggbound female monitor at between the 4-6 week point. I suggested that a GOOD HERP VET remove the eggs before they become rotten or infect the animal killing it, I saved one of mine just before that from the same thing, again from improper nesting (why I said not to get dirt thats recycled tree bark from hardware stores). The individual didnt take the advice and what happened at week 6, it died. Just as I warned as I have Dan Turners Video which he had the same thing happen. I was given advice from 2 other sources at the 2-3 week point on this Frank Retes who by the way was an absolute gentleman over the phone, and aggreed with my other reference Rob Faust to get them removed in a week or 2 at the latest, and that it should never take that long to lay.

I have never said anything against vet care or treatment, except when they want to treat internal parasites on a monitor (really any animal) thats sick from bad husbandry, your vet after all cannot treat the actual problem (unlesss he takes your animal away), he can tell you what it is you have to do to make those changes, he can treat the symptoms.
And you said a few posts ago that you have had one animal treated for parasites, to reference that and it not be a monitor negates it from this subject, unless you have treated a monitor.

SHvar

01-16-04, 12:22 PM

"I am quite annoyed that he spends so much time typing these big messages and giving information and sources (for the sole purpose to save the lives of herps, which is a good enough reason for me!) and nobody listens to him or at best argues with him. "

He gave the first source to back up any claim other than the worst monitor book ever written as a source, he mentioned experience with one parasitic treatment but not the subject at hand a MONITOR being treated. 1 of 3 sources was a high school biology book, one was a MAMMAL parasite book, one was on parasites in general. Read his posts carefully I have, its my posts he misquotes as to vet care, Ive said nothing against proper vet care but against antiparasitic treatment with medicines on an animal that needs to be put in proper conditions to fix the problem not make it worse by poisoning it.

"I think that the best thing would be to stop and read what others have typed, or else don't post a thread at all!"

I aggree completely, you both need to read whats being posted and respond to that.

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