Creamsicle project pics (dial up warning)

[vanderkm]

Even though they are hybrids, creamsicles remain my favorite color variety of cornsnake and the one our cornsnake breeding will focus on.

We have several breedings planned for 2003 with the long term plan of enhancing the yellow and incorporating the striped pattern as well as maintaining a line that are crossed out to great plains ratsnake.

While it would be great to have breeding pictures, our guys are still napping, but I thought I would share some photos of our planned pairs for 2004.

mary v.

First creamsicle male
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Cheddar_8_resized.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Cheddar_4_resized.jpg

His girls
Great Plains ratsnake
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Crockett_5_reduced.jpg

Butter corn
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Winslow_reduced.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Winslow_12_reduced.jpg

[vanderkm]

This is the second male (he looks more emory-like to me in pattern and has a paler orange color) and his girls.

The biggest issue for me in working with these guys remains the difficulty of identifying them as hybrids (intergrades) because many of the crosses could look like pure corns. I have investigated means of permanent identification (scale notching or tattooing) but have not found anything that I am confident will work other than microchipping. I would like to be able to say that every hybrid hatchling I sell can be identified as such for its whole life, so if anyone has any ideas to share - I would welcome them.

mary v.

Male creamsicle
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Nibblet_reduced.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Nibblet_2_reduced.jpg

Striped female
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Ruby_4_reduced.jpg

Amel female (hoping for wider white bands around the saddles in some)
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_Jan_2_Ivy_8_reduced.jpg

[ChristinaM]

gorgeous snakes. Good luck with the breeding. Can't wait to see the results.

[Simon]

nice!
good luck with the breeding
hope you'll produce lots!!!

[Katt]

Love the striped female!!!

[Scales Zoo]

Nice creamsicle!

As far as microchipping and such; Are there many fancy corn breeders that would assume a creamsicle type was pure corn?

If I were breeding pure corns, I would likely not be breeding fancy colored ones.

Diamond python Jungle python crosses, and that kind of thing, should always be marked (cut off all scales behind the head - no, I'm joking) - but I don't think the really fancy corn colors are going to get anyone in a heap of trouble if DNA proves there is 5% great plains rat in them (not that DNA could tell the difference between a GPR and a corn anyways)

I'm no longer really up on my corns, so I may be just talking nonsense - but all of the pretty corns in Canada that have been pictured lately have re-piqued my interest in them.

Ryan

[gonesnakee]

Darn you Mary, now I'm regretting selling the Creamsicle male I bought/sold today. DOH LOL Mark

[vanderkm]

Yah Ryan - you should like those creams - they came from you! They are nicer than any others I have seen - really happy to have them.

I know for the most part that many people are not concerned about the possible percentage of great plains rat in corns and that anyone who is concerned is likely to buy from a breeder who they trust to provide them with the genetics they want. I know that is what I do if I want to be sure of the genetics. It is more the mass crossing into a gene pool that I think about - these planned breedings will likely produce a lot more offspring than I want to keep - all of which will be good pets - but what happens when someone sells them or wants to breed that pet and doesn't remember or know the genetics?

Many of the creamsicle crosses do have coloration that allows them to be distinguished as well - but I expect that offspring from some of my planned breedings (to the striped female for example) will not look much different from many of the normal corns that are around today. How concerned to I have to be, as a breeder, that these or their offspring not be represented as pure corns? At this point I am contenting myself with making sure anyone who buys from me knows what they are getting - how far does our responsibility extend when we produce these intergrades or hybrids? Just something I have been considering.

Mark - if you get any creamsicle females that you want to sell - just let me know!!


mary v.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by vanderkm
[B]Yah Ryan - you should like those creams - they came from you! They are nicer than any others I have seen - really happy to have them.

No way? Really!

After I posted that, I thought it would be funny if those were the same ones. I knew they were going to be nice - but they turned out much nicer than I could have thought.

I'm glad you are going to be able to do something good with those - I've seen some other of the corn babies that we sold at the same time as those (flew them into Canada - Tim Spuckle, 3rd eye).

Ryan

[Tim_Cranwill]

Hmmm.. I've never really paid much attention to the creamsicles before. VERY nice!

What genes do they carry?

[Clownfishie]

Those creamsicles are very nice Mary! :D And I love that striped girl... awesome! Best of luck with those pairings :)

[MouseKilla]

Tim,

Mary will probably do a better job explaining how these are produced but they are an amel corn X great plains rat integrade. You need to mate the offspring to eachother to bring out the amel gene in the second generation. That's a really crude explaination, I'm sure, as I said, Mary or Mark or Simon can do a much better job laying out the genetics for you.

Mary,

Since we know that corns are part of the larger rat snake family is it even necessary to distiquish between corns that carry the Emoryi genes and those that don't? If you are planning to breed a snake then you are obviously more interested in the genetic history or make up of the creature than someone who will buy it as a pet. I'm just thinking about all the animals out there that are sold as pure normals (simply because they appear to be just that) that are het for God only knows what. As far as taking responsibility for any genetic combinations you create goes I figure if you can provide your buyer with the appropriate information you've done pretty well all you can and much more than most would. Again I'm thinking of all the normal looking hets that are out there that people have sold off real cheap as cast offs from their breeding projects. I imagine one day the snake breeding industry will become more like the dog breeding industry in that snakes with a verifiable lineage will be much more valuable than those that don't. Right now it seems like nearly no one cares what the genes are (though some are fussy about "inbreeding" and others about keeping locales distinct) they are more interested in what the animal looks like and that's what seems to determine value.

[vanderkm]

Tim - creamsicles were the first corns I had any experience of and even though the ones I first saw were much more the dark orange and red coloration they did hook me on that color. When I saw the ones Ryan had for sale I knew they were what I was looking for - the soft orange color.
As Mousekilla says - they originated from crosses between amel corns and great plains rats to reduce the amount of red and enhance the orange colors (before butter gene was known in corns). That original cross gives you rootbeer corns (darker orange, less red tones than a normal corn) and the F2 will produce some amels that have the orange predominate. I believe many of the original pairings were done by a Canadian breeder - from B.C. but I cannot recall the name.

So genetically they are the same as amel corns. Most creamsicles now are produced from creamsicle to creamsicle breedings though. I think there is a lot more of creamsicle genes in the general pet population than usually recognized. There do seem to be more of the red toned ones around than the orange ones too. While they are great in the saddled morp, I love the effect of motley and striped on them. I have a long way to go to produce those - but have to have a goal!

Mousekilla - I really don't know that it is necessary to distinguish the lines with corns and creamsicles - just know that a lot of people are very concerned with keeping the lines pure - I know I want to be confident that my hondurans are pure and are kept pure - just having problems reconciling that with wanting to work with a corn morph that is not 'strictly' pure. You are right - most critical is to let people know what they are buying.

mary v.