Croc Hunter beats M. Jackson Baby balcony incident

[stewart]

Crikey, Steve Irwin's baby in a croc shocker (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8307894%255E662,00.html)

Crikey! Steve Irwin takes baby to crocodile feeding, draws Aussie ire - USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-01-02-irwin_x.htm)

'Crocodile Hunter' takes baby to feed crocs" - CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/01/02/crocodile.baby.ap/)

[scalawag]

I stopped watching Croc Hunter about a year and a half ago because it's all schtich(spelling). He doesn't care about his animals, everything is for the "Show" His Zoo and now it looks like his 1 mo old is just a prop!!! Disgraceful

[Bartman]

I agree that this act was stupid, but i completely disagree when you say he doesnt care about his animals..his entire life revolves around them and he is so patioate about them it crazy...he cares tons for the animals..he doesnt think about his actions and thats the problem!

[BoidKeeper]

I couldn't believe my eyes! The guys on glue.
Trevor

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Got-to agree with bartman.

[snakehunter]

WTF, I used to love this guy, he always stressed how important it was to not stress the animal, and not put any one ELSE in danger other than himself. makes me question his ethics, is it me, or is everyone else turning into michael jackson?!?!?!

[BoAddict]

with these reactions you all just prooved that this sort of stunt works.

i for 1 believe that stevo new what he was doing, the guy knows his animals and well so be it was stupid but the publicity dont hurt.

[Mustangrde1]

OK . How about giveing Steve Credit. He took a Infant in to a croc padock and then preceeded to feed a big croc nothing he hasnt done before big deal. " IF '" it was only his life at risk. Now lets look at it from the Crocs point of view Nice snack in your arm Steve. How about I make a lunge you were not expecting and you trip and fall and drop the Neofood.

What Steve did was pure stupidity plain and simple. A million and one things could have gone wrong and the NEO would be croc snack. Just the one example I gave proves that. One slip and fall and Croc gets a freebie.

[Bartman]

I agree..i remember he went to feed a croc with a wounded hand and the croc went straight for it..imo i think its pretty much the same thing with the baby..the croc obviously notices weeknesses and that one hand is busy holding the kid..i love steeve but damn that was freakin dummbbbb..i dont even understand the point..its not like the baby is gonna remember!

[TheRedDragon]

OMG! Who in their right mind, no matter HOW experienced would do such a stupid thing?! :mad:

[Tim and Julie B]

Well, I don't think anyone has a right to decide what is right or wrong in this case, except Steve and Terri. Why? How old was Steve when his father started taking him out on croc hunts? He too was a baby. No one pegged his father as being irresponsible. The only reason anyone cares is because he's a tv personanlity. And we all know how much people like to stir $hit up. Also, how often have we seen Bob and Tracy Barker herping on tv with thier kids? The older one always walks around flipping rocks, with god only knows what lurking underneath. These people live for the love of thier animals, and are instilling the love and value of reptiles in thier children, albeit at a very young age. However, these are the future role-players in the hobby we've come to love. Before condemning Steve (who has done so much) take a look at what you keep in your home around your kids and other pets. Almost anything can be a danger to a child, but if you are watching over them they will be safe. He was holding Bob quite safely, working with an animal he knows extremely well. It's nothing compared to what MJ did, because Steve was not intentionally trying to drop his child to his death. Keep that in mind before making a judgement. Just my two cents. Oh, and while I wouldn't do this myself, I do keep reptiles that many would consider harmful to kids and I plan to have my kids grow up around them.

Julie

[nolagurl]

I can't believe someone would be that idiotic. He's all about the drama isn't he?

[marisa]

The only mistake he made was doing it in public.

His parents raised him at the park, he caught his first venomous snake at FOUR years old, he was raised feeding crocs and wants to raise his two kids the same way. To us its wrong but to them its normal. The only mistake was doing it in front of the public.

I only HOPE any kids I get stuck with will have those opportunities.

Marisa

[manville]

You guys shd also give him credits...he is very experienced and know what he is doing...i know it is dangerous but nothing happened so how can you prove it...i agree with him saying it is more dangerous packing your kid up and going outside...i agree with you guys too..he shd not do it in public..

[ruthupton]

As a mother, there is no way that I would have done that.

[scalawag]

He lost me in that eppisode I think it was the Red Bellied Black Snake talking about how he love his animals and doesn't want to stress it and then goes to hold it by the tail and makes it strike at him over 30 times. And I don't agree that its OK to endanger your child as long as its not public.

[Rebecca]

I agree with Tim and Julie. How meny people raise pit bulls, rotties?? To lots of people they are just as bad as crocs. Now how meny raise their kids as well as rotties and such?? It's dangerous just bring a child into this world. At least he is raising his children his way with love for the animals. I also don't think he should have done it in public.

[LadyHawke]

my child has spent his whole life around pit bulls and that doesnt make it dangerous, ALL dogs can bite and do damage, its just some are more publicized then others so you hear about them more, and you will not hear about the other dog bits cuz they are not pit bulls....nobody wants to read/hear about that:)
the media will always have a biased opinion
anyways i agree with Tim and Julie B:)

[V.hb]

how can you compare a pitbull/rottie to a croc? haha! thats rediculous!

On the other hand, I agree with Marisa here. The only mistake made was doing it publicly. Steves doing what hes been taught, and what hes been exposed to from a young age. Doing it on camera was idiotic, though.

[tHeGiNo]

Hmm I think my post got deleted, weird...*sigh* Anyhow I will repost it.

The only mistake he made was doing it in public. His parents raised him at the park, he caught his first venomous snake at FOUR years old, he was raised feeding crocs and wants to raise his two kids the same way. To us its wrong but to them its normal. The only mistake was doing it in front of the public.

I only HOPE any kids I get stuck with will have those opportunities.

Exactly my opinion. I am sure his dad did the exact same thing with him; it is a way of life for them. Like you said it was doing it publicly that was his mistake.

i agree with him saying it is more dangerous packing your kid up and going outside

That is very similar to what I was going to post when the thread started but I thought it would upset people. My opinion is: him doing that is exactly like taking your kid into a vehicle. Or similar to it anyways. Yet it is something we do without giving it a second thought.

How old was Steve when his father started taking him out on croc hunts? He too was a baby. No one pegged his father as being irresponsible. The only reason anyone cares is because he's a tv personanlity. And we all know how much people like to stir $hit up.

Exactly.

As already mentioned, you cannot compare this to what MJ did. As someone else mentioned, but that seems to be gone too, I highly doubt MJ was holding the baby over the railing so that he wont grow up with a fear of heights. Steve had his reasons. Again, it was stupid to do it on camera.

the croc obviously notices weeknesses and that one hand is busy holding the kid..i love steeve but damn that was freakin dummbbbb..i dont even understand the point..its not like the baby is gonna remember!

Exactly, you do not understand. Steve does, and so did his father when he did the same with him. They understand why they do it, which is why you can't critisize him for doing so. And I am sure if the crocodile viewed the baby as a weakness, Steve would know about it.

[Sunrunner]

It was stupid plain and simple because of the many problems it COULD have caused, Just say for one minute that something did go wrong you all wouldnt have said these things you have said in your posts, do any of you know that a month old baby should not even be held that way???????????????????? it could damage his neck geez. I have heard some idiotic posts before but this one takes the cake. I dont care what tradition it was it was wrong for him to do that to a new born Infant that baby will not remember it anyhow.

What would it have done for herps everywhere if the baby got hurt answer that when you go to post it was ok for him to do it. people are people no matter who and how experienced you are you are human and can slip up.

[Sunrunner]

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[Sunrunner]

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[C.m.pyrrhus]

The only problem i see is that he went public. Now he has to hear it from the countless morons that pass judgement on others when they are just as much at fault for putting their kids and others into danger. If you do not think that packing your kids in the minivan for a ball game or movie is dangerous, then your a moron. If you fail to realize that Steve has many people that are watching out for him while he is in the exibits then your a moron.

I do not see how all you folks could pass judgement on another so strongly when YOU are just as guilty for doing things that could carry the same consequences, even if these things are publicly acceptable. You think that the common things that you do daily are any safer than what Steve did? If so you need a reality check. Just because what Steve did is beyond our reality, does not mean that the public itself is at fault for endangering their childrens lives on a daily basis. I would rather be Steves' kid than be the kid in the back of countless minivans worldwide. The world has been conditioned to believe everything they do is normal and great, but others actions are horrible.

How many of you fathers out there have venomous or other potentially dangerous reptiles at home? Who has not taken there kids out to shoot the 'family' guns? Who has not ran a red light with a carload of kids only to think "That was close!"

On a side note...I was raised by a mountain man, literally. I was going on my fathers trap lines at the age of 3, and even on hunting trips as an infant. I was setting traps and snares at 4-5 years of age. And believe me when I say a full grown Mountain Lion is nothing you want to see pissed off at the end of chain. This is something our ancectors have been doing for ages, to condition and teach their young about the world they are entering. Some of you folks need to lighten up and see beyond your own ways, and realize you are at fault for dangerous actions as well.

My 2 cents....

[Dragons & Balls]

What people need to do is Stop judging everybody.It is his kid,if he wants to do what he did,it is his perogative. At least he is not drinking or doing Crack in front of his kid.There are alot more dangerous things in the world to harm kids,stop ragging on the poor guy.

[Tim and Julie B]

Sunrunner- It caused no problems other than inciting arguments between people who could not possibly know all of the details. Just exactly what post was idiotic? Everyone's but yours? You seem to say a lot of negative things about what everyone else thinks. I don't think that I can recall a positve post from you yet. Not that it's a bad thing, but you are no more an expert than anyone else here. I don't think you should peg people's thoughts as idiotic, stupid or pointless, which I have read many times in your posts. Yes, we should voice our opinions, but even an argument can be positive in nature. You can even call someone stupid in a nice way if you try. Of course it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Anyways, he did what he did and I can only assume it won't happen again because too many people are narrow-minded and have caused to much negative publicity. And yes, I still think he had every right to be the father he is and to do what was taught to him. Who cares what Joe Blow thinks, it's not his kid.

Julie

[tHeGiNo]

It was stupid plain and simple because of the many problems it COULD have caused

Ok well if that is the argument, don't take your baby in the car, because you COULD get into an accident. Don't carry the baby because you COULD drop him. Heck, don't feed the baby either because he COULD choke.

What would it have done for herps everywhere if the baby got hurt answer that when you go to post it was ok for him to do it.

Don't give me that. Had the baby got hurt, I really don't think it would affect the herp community at all. What are they going to do, go kill every animal in the world that could harm someone?

It caused no problems other than inciting arguments between people who could not possibly know all of the details.

Exactly.

[maiden_canada]

anyone who doesnt like steve anymore ebcause of this, or thinks hes a bad parent, or thinks he put his child in danger is a moron. i'm not going to try and explain any more

[Bartman]

I agree..with maiden

[Rebecca]

I was not comparing crocs to dogs persay by the danger they pose. Everything has the potential (sp?) to harm someone. It's just a matter of how you look at it.

[Kyle Barker]

im confused, he must have 2 daughters...???

He showed his kid being born on one of his shows and that was a few years ago....that baby in the pic is way younger. Does he have 2 kids? Or is this some sort of joke?

[Tim and Julie B]

The new baby is Bob:D

Julie

[dean_h00]

LEAVE THE POOR GUY ALONE
HE MEANS NO HARM OR TROUBLE
EVERYONE DOES STUPID THINGS EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE
(if you think it was dumb or not WHO CARES)
JUST GIVE HIM A BREAK
Ha

[Lisa]

you learn fastest when you're younger, what better why to learn then to be with papa... worst thing that happens is father dawrin strikes again. though i do admit, steve should have better secured the little gaffer instead of carrying him like a football.

[daver676]

I'm glad I grew up when I did. These days, kids don't have any fun.

[Sunrunner]

Tom and Julie B I have written many, many possitive posts but this one is off the chart do you even have children? I myself have 4 and I was More Pissed about the way he was HOLDING his child then him taking it out in a pen I DID not say that he did not know what he was doing but you all can NOT sit here and tell me that that 1 month old babie will remember ANY of that it was a unnessessary risk. 2-3 yrs old it might imprint but I highly doubt (though I am no expert) that a one month old babie would have any memory of it.

[Mustangrde1]

I have thought about what his actions have done and after cooling down i formed a letter and sent it to animal planet and discovery channel. I believe if enough people do this it may show Steve that what he is doing is not accepted or acceptable.

if you feel the same i incourage you to write them also or just copy and paste the below if you feel it fits.

To whom it may concern with the Animal Planet and Discovery channels.

In regard to what has occurred regarding Stephen Irwin AKA" The Crocodile Hunter" and his actions with his Infant son. As a keeper of dangerous reptiles myself and as a person who has worked on a limited bases with Crocodilians I find Mr. Irwin's actions Dangerous and Irresponsible.
I feel that I must bring to light that he placed his child in harms way for a publicity stunt to increase profit. At 1 month of age He the infant is by no means a qualified handler of these animals and as it is required in his own country to be permitted Mr. Irwin broke the laws by bringing the child in to the paddock.

His action also affect on the reptile community in a whole as it gives a very bad view on the millions of responsible reptile owners that live in our communities. Do in large part to his actions many people that are not familiar with reptiles or their care and handling see us as person who go out to play with dangerous animals for thrills. This is very untrue as many keepers are highly educated persons that have spent many years learning how to properly care for the reptiles in their charge.

I do believe his actions also reflect upon your business as it appears you condone such actions by continuing to allow him to handle many dangerous reptiles in a manner that is unsafe and dangerous. The ratings you may receive from his actions are not worth it if one person dies from mimicking his actions and receives a venomous bite or is bitten by an alligator. The bad Press that would be generated from such an incident would reflect badly upon your programming and the reptile hobbyist, keepers, sellers.

When allowing him to handle venomous reptiles without proper handling equipment it sends a message to many people that by using your bare hands is the way to handle these creatures. When in fact there are many specialized tools designed for the safe manipulation of these reptiles that place the handler in little or no harm if used correctly. I site other persons you have on your programming such as Jeff Corwin or Mark O'Shea who both use the proper handling equipment.

I believe it is your responsibility to FORCE Mr. Irwin to now use proper handling tools while under your employ, and to refrain from actions that may harm your business or other persons business's. His actions are and do reflect upon your programming and do reflect upon millions of other law abiding and responsible persons.

I appreciate your time in reading this.

Sincerely,
Scott Bice

[Dragons & Balls]

So some of you are saying it is not acceptable for him to do what he did.Who the hell made you God.Unless you are God do not judge anybody.It was totally acceptable to me,so what gives you the right to say it is not acceptable?

[Rebecca]

As much as I hate to say it but animal planet and discovery are most likely being over loaded with other letters. Chances are they won't even read the letters. The best way to promote what you think proper handling is to show people yourself. Also if there is a contract in place they can not FORCE anyone to do anything. Steve knows what he is doing. I don't agree how he was holding the baby and I agree it was part a publicity stunt. But Bob is not our son there for we can not judge how he should be raised. Lots of people were raised like that. Wild animals are a part of life for everyone, so why is it wrong for someone to teach their children to respect them?? Some people are raised with crocs or bears comming right into their backyard when playing, I'd rather know that my child could fend for it's self (kinda) then a cityslicker that knows nothing and gets it's self killed.

[marisa]

A lot of people here are quite the judge and jury. It's too bad that some people cannot accept something that was a simple mistake.

The child could be in mroe danger driving on the highway in a carseat. But you guys don't care about that. You guys only want to burn him at the stake for a simple mistake. Its ridiculous. In a month no one will even remember he did that let alone start killing "dangerous' reptiles or taking their infants to feed crocs. And not to mention the HUGE amount of publiity Steve will get from this. Jus think of all the visitors streaming in to the zoo in hopes of seeing Steve hold a baby. Wow. Real crowd drawer there. Yeah.

Maybe next we should put tiny airbags on pencils so that no one pokes their eye out.

Marisa

[Mustangrde1]

Dragons and Balls you wrote
So some of you are saying it is not acceptable for him to do what he did.Who the hell made you God.Unless you are God do not judge anybody.It was totally acceptable to me,so what gives you the right to say it is not acceptable?

You may want to check out the laws reguarding who and whom may enter a crocadile paddock in Australia. The laws were put inplace to PROTECT person. Steve broke the laws. Probably the exact same laws he enforces on his employee's. Just proving he is above the laws in his eyes.

As to who gives us the right to say what is exceptable. Its called years of working with these animals and understanding the dangers and risk involved with it. Just curious to how much experiance you have with any dangerous reptiles let alone crocs.I am by no meens a crocadillian expert myself but i have worked with them in limited circumstances and seen them do very unpredicatable things. And all it would have took was one brief secound and the baby would be dead. So anyone who has worked with dangerous animals CERTAINLY DOES have the right to say what he did was dangerous, foolish , and irresponcible along with illegal. THAT IS WHAT GIVES US THE RIGHT.

Rebecca:

People do raise their children to respect and to avoid danger but not fear them. Same with guns . However How many do you know actually put them in harms way to show off for PR none i would guess. Yes teaching your children is very important but at an appropriate age. and proper handling is extremely important but ( being handled in front of a croc by your dad ) is not proper handling by a you. As to writing the letters hell ya keep flooding them, They like thier ratings and im sure do not want to loose it and if thier legal dept says to him YOU WILL SHOW PROPER HANDLING you can rest assured he will. Contracts can be changed for purposes of safety and life and limb to cover the producers butts in case of accident.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Sorry folks to upset you all, but I still have no reason to feel that Steve did anything wrong. IMO your thoughts and posts reflect a bit of "culture-shock" and a tad bit of wimpiness. What ever happened to the folks that grew up around nature, without being "kept safe" from harm?

Again, I just think think that our cultures are conditioned to accept some things and to not accept others. Still seems to me that people fail to realize that he has the right to bring his son up as he sees fit. Also, what makes you think that he has any less control over what he does than what you have control over in your life? Seems this world gets to be a bigger baby by the day. Anything not acceptable by modern western society seems to be a shame.

Do you folks not realize that your very own ancectors did this on a regular basis? You are a product of this type of learning. Now you sit back and act as if you are better than that? Get real, grow up and get some balls. Then go pack the family in the wagon for a picnic, roll the damn vehicle and realize the risks you take to enjoy your 'acceptable' lives.

Or maybe your just upset because you have a problem with Irwin, and you find this as your golden oppertunity to shine? Either way, folks need to grow some and not allow yourselves to be conditioned to be blind to your own mistakes and misconceptions.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well, I think this was a stupid, ill-conceived publicity stunt, but I don't think that the baby was in any significant risk of harm, given the circumstances and the obvious talent Steve has around crocodiles.

I agree that lots of babies are at greater risk on the highway daily, and many are exposed to household dogs and cats which kill a few every year. Life has lots of risks, and it is all a question of degrees. I wouldn't feed a croc like that with or without a baby. I would, however, take an infant out in a canoe with me, which is theoretically (and statistically) fairly risky. As a former canoe instructor, I happen to think it would be pretty low risk. We all have to make these sorts of decisions in life, and I won't second guess Steve for his.

On the other hand, I still think it was unnecessary and stupid.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Jmail324]

A child is a responsibility too, and making mistakes is one thing, but putting a 1 month old in an enclosure with a salt water croc is another. There may be plenty of dangers in this world we cannot help, but that does not ok putting a child in a dangerous situation that can be prevented. There was absolutely no reason for doing this besides a publicity stunt, and to risk your own childs life in such an irresponsible way is unacceptable. That 1 month old can in no way comprehend what happened or learn from it, therefore it was pointless. I just cant believe that there are those who dont think it was such a bad idea. I'm not judging him, I just wonder where his common sense was.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Thats what gets me too, just from the other side. Much like Jeff said his part about the canoe, some things are just degrees on what you have been known to be risky or not.

I was taken out since I was an infant on hunting and trapping outings. Who ever says that an infant cannot learn from it is obserd. If anything, this is the prime time to expose the world to your child. Best time for them to learn just about anything and everything. There are kids that play violin better than anyone at the age of 5, kids that can survive better than adults in any given situation. And why? Because they were exposed to certain situations and stimuli since birth, and not strolled around in pretty new clothes, smelling like baby powder in some carriage and displayed to the relatives as a "show and tell" item, something that is shown off as a pretty new addition like your dog or new truck. Sad to see this world so afraid to acclimate their children to anything. No wonder that the common person has no clue on how to survive outdoors, or even cook mac and cheese before the age of 16. No wonder kids cannot read by kindergarden but know what a television is. Makes me sick to see the world so affraid to do anything these days.

[marisa]

Nice post C.m.pyrrhus I totally agree.

If exposing children early doesn't have effect then why was Steve able to catch his first Brown Snake (highly venomous) at the age of FOUR? Did he learn a month earlier and go out and catch one? LOL doubt it. His parents raised him AT and IN the zoo, the woods and around venomous snakes since he was born. It obviously pays off or more of us would be out in Austrailia catching native herps right now like Steve is.

Marisa

[ScreamingMisfit]

i agree with Tim and Julie.....

[shaggybill]

A dang good post, C.M. phyrrus! Both of them. Just what I wanted to say. The kids these days are growing up to be a bunch of wimps surrounded with safety regulations and all sorts of crap. Everything is off-limits. Its like you said, these kind of things happened on a regular basis 50 years ago, and nobody thought boo about it. Now we have a bunch of beurocratic idiots trying to tell us what we can and cannot do. I grew up in hill-billy country in North Carolina and as far back as I can remember, I went out in the woods by myself, went fishing by myself, did alot of stuff by myself. Of course, I always had the protection of my Daisy BB gun. :) Now if a kid goes into the woods by himself, his parents get arrested for child-endangerment. In 20 years, who knows, I might have to move to some third world country where I actually have freedom.

Back to the main topic. I dont think the point is that we all know everything about crocs, therefore worthy of deeming Steve's actions safe. The point is that Steve knows crocs like the back of his hands, and therefore he is worthy of deeming his actions safe. This is a croc thats been around people for a very long time. And this also is a croc that Steve has been around for a long time. Its by no means a docile animal, but its not straight from the wild either. It knows that Steve is the <i>source</i> of his food, not food himself. I doubt he would spend the energy attacking Steve for food when he knows all he has to do is wait for him to pull out a chicken.

[red bootz]

Keeping reptiles in and of itself is a risk to infants and the young because they have the POTENTIAL of carrying SALMONELLA. Uh-oh, now we are all guilty of endangering our children!

[shaggybill]

hehe red bootz. You're avatar cracks me up. Spiderman 2 is going to rock!

[tHeGiNo]

C.m.pyrrhus, brilliantly said! You covered every single point I could have wished to bring accross. And mustang, I am in no way a venemous keeper, nor do I know anything about them, nor the practises in keeping them. However, common sense tells me Steve has been working with his hands FOREVER. I highely doubt he ever used the tools used now-a-days to hook dangerous snakes. All of his life has he been using his hands, now do you really think if he were to switch his methods, which again he has been doing for 30+ years, he would be equally as talented? I don't think so.

[rwg]

I dont think it was as bad as the press makes it out to be. Steve is pretty good at what he does, and you can bet he was really on his toes with his son with him. Should have been supporting the baby's head though. Dont get me wrong...I do think it was a supid thing to do. Even if he was in complete control of the croc (who knows?), the press and public are at least as dangerous and unpredictable.

Oh...for those of you who say our kids are being raised as wimps, the flip side is that infant and child mortality rates have been declining steadily. Deaths for children under age 1 have fallen steadily, for example, in the United States where it has gone from from 29/1000 in 1950 to 7/1000 in 2000. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0779935.html).

I'm not saying you're wrong, about coddling our kids...I'm just saying there's a trade-off.

rg

[tHeGiNo]

The child mortality rates have declined, yes. But that has nothing to do with the way they are being raised up. It has to do with the new medications and the like that are available year after year.

[tHeGiNo]

.

[Lisa]

Lets put all the children in plastic air tight bubbles so that they are never exposed to anything harmful. While we're at it lets paint the bubbles black so the child can't see anything traumatic. We should also install closed circuit tv's in the bubbles so we can provide the child with nothing but the most mindless programing so the child doesn't think or have low self esteem problems. Heaven forbid the child gets any form of stimulation.
Life is built on experiancing things, how many of you have seen a child burn or prick themselves after they've been told what they're going to touch is going to hurt just to see what it feels like? But everyone cries SAVE THE CHILDREN and we get stupid laws made and a million products that have insane prices because of the insurance needed to protect the company from the people too dumb to use them properly.

[Dragons & Balls]

SO ur saying Mustangrde1.... That it was a horrible thing that Steve did.....SO if it was so ILLEGAL then why is it on camera and why isn't Steve in JAIL.....All people ever do is complain on how he handles his animals..... I personally would love to work and do the things he is able to do..... As for what he did with his kid... Why don't u try being a foster parent or someone that works with kids and then u tell me if that is the WORST thing that he could have done, believe me the horror stories are endless..... Maybe this is what his dad did to him?
Maybe he was just SHOWING OFF, but we all like to show things off when were VERY proud....
And if u still don't agree don't watch it!!!!
Its not that big of a deal.....

WELL PUT C.M. PYRRHUS

[Mustangrde1]

""" Not that big a deal""" that is the thought mentality that could cause us to loose many of our rights and abilities to keep reptiles.

As I have said before one slip one mishap and the politicians would be bombed with the public asking for restrictions and if you don't think they would do just that think again. It has already happened in many places.

By the way I have two boys both raised hunting and fishing. Both raised around animals including wolves. I have never placed them in danger nor have I ever placed them in a situation before I felt they were ready for it. As to the wourst that could happen from a social workers point of veiw. I understand what your saying more then you might expect.

Why Steve did not face charges is he brings in to much revenue and is to popular and thats a shame had any of us done it you know what would have happened.

C M
Great Post points well taken and valid. But we were not under a public microscope where are action can effect others. Those under the camera need to show more caution and care in the actions they do.

[marisa]

You are telling me that if an accident happens at a LEGAL zoo in another country it will negetively affect private keeping rights in North America?

That doesn't make sense to me personally, no offense to you of course. If it was at Steves home and the baby was killed, o.k. different story. If it was a private keeper letting a child hold hots, again different.

Marisa

[shaggybill]

Great post, Lisa.

Mustangrde1, like you, I dont think that Steve should be above the law, I just dont think that this is something worth arresting somebody for, especially a professional croc wrangler like Steve who basically lives with these animals.

Marisa, I think Mustangrde1 meant that since this story is about privately kept dangerous reptiles, it casts a negative light on keeping reptiles for everybody. And thats a good point. We should keep our hobbies out of the spotlight as much as possible.

[tHeGiNo]

You venomous keepers, what do you think about the question I asked before. In regards to Steve's obvious methods of handling. Do you not think switching his methods so late in his career will affect his performance and skill?

[Wilma]

f he wasn't a celebraty his kids would be in foster care right now until they swore to get rid of all pet reptiles or have them housed away from the family home and not to allow under age children into any exhibt pens or habitats.

[Dragons & Balls]

Wilma,that is not true!I being a foster parent with 40 Reptiles should know.Luckily the government has some standards and they save homes like mine for kids who are actually put in danger.I have had a 10 foot boa wrapped around 1 of my foster kids necks,does that make me a bad foster parent?

[Mustangrde1]

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/

Tonight on Larry King

[Yness]

Well...I have to say that if it was Joe Schmoe getting into a croc enclosure with an infant there would be a problem...but as has already been said Steve Irwin has experience, and not just 5 years or 10 years...he has a LIFETIME of experience.

I can't negatively comment on the validity of teaching children how to act around crocadilians or even venomous snakes cause here in friendly Manitoba we have none. If I lived in an area where they existed in the wild and my child could encounter them at any time then I would for sure be exposing them at a young age.

Like it or not, Steve Irwin knew what he was doing and likely had more safety precautions than are visible in the frame of the camera.

For all you child safety pundits out there I hope your kids wear bike helmets (more importantly PROPERLY) because I have seen so many people freak out about child safety and then let their kids ride around without or with an improperly worn bicycle helmet...just an example of hypocracy.

My humble two cents

[MedusaAthene]

I'm intrigued at how people today are so very interested in how others raise their children and are sure their way is better. I agree with all those who are pointing out that this is how Steve was raised, and it must seem very natural to him.

Most children today are *over* protected and bored. When I was a kid, I was lucky enough to have woods and lakes to play in and around, exploring and seeing animals and scaping knees and so on. Actually playing instead of staring at the TV all day.

Dangerous? Probably. But I'm still alive, aren't I? Today there aren't many wild areas left to play in, and children are out trying to become teenagers too fast and follow the latest fads instead of exploring and learning about their world.

Frankly, I think Bindi-Sue and Bob are incredibly lucky kids. Talk about rich experiences growing up. Every time I've seen Steve and Terri on any program, theres this overwhelming sense of sincerity about them, and enthusiasm. Those kids have a head start if you ask me.

How many people ranting about endangering children have alchohol and cigarettes around the house? How many people use these poisons around their kids? Unsafe cars, letting kids play in the street, fireplaces, unfenced pools, public school... The world is full of dangers.

Steve grew up in a different world than we have, one full of risk and experience. His kids will do the same. More power to them. I don't think this is at all comparable to Jacko.

Snap judgements and witch hunts are a sad fact of human nature. Too bad more people aren't willing to take a look at things through different points of view.

I know a number of folks had already made these points, but I thought I'd rant a bit too ;)

[Mustangrde1]

Gino first to your question... It is not hard to use a hook or tongs and im sure he knows how to very well just loves the shock and ratings to much to use safety protocals....

I can careless about what he does in private. The problem with him is he doesnt do it in private he does it in the publics eye which can and will cause public outcry just look at all the forums
and how many this subject is on.

I am steeling a friends words here but i think it said volumes

If people can't see the difference between the minimal risk of driving in a car or climbing a tree and the increased risks of taking a kid and dragging it into close proximity with an animal not only capable but INCLINED to do it harm, then there's a massive problem here.

All these analogies to everyday risks are absurd and everytime someone makes one comparing these actions to other behaviors with *reasonable* risk, it makes me question the intelligence of the poster.

What was done was NOT like driving in a car or allowing a kid to play baseball... It was like driving a car with no brakes or blindfolding a child and setting them in front of a fastball pitching machine.

Reasonable risks are just that... reasonable. Massive risks with nothing to gain are simply idiotic.

[MedusaAthene]

Why then, Mustangrde, is no one attacking Steve's father's behavior? He did the same things, and I doubt Steve considered what he was doing a massive risk. He loves his kids and his animals, if he'd thought what he was doing was very dangerous to his son, he wouldn't have done it. He figured (as Terri must have) that he knew what he was doing. If it was or not, regardless of his perception, we can't really say because nothing happened.

Yes what was done was more dangerous then playing baseball, but I think your comparisons are on the opposite side of the extreme. I think we're all having trouble finding a realistic middle ground. I wouldn't compare a professional doing what he's done all his life with his son to blindfolding a kid and setting them infront of a pitching machine.

It is a shame that it's a public issue, and I think if Steve had realized how people would react he may not have done it with an audience.

*However*, if Terri says something about it thats a whole nother issue. Has anyone heard anything about what she thought and if she had a say? If she didn't, then I'm going to have to do some serious rethinking. She often keeps Steve in check when he gets overenthusiastic, and can tend to be on the more grounded side.

[Mustangrde1]

Medusa yes terri did have something to say .. I will post it at the end of this responce'

Steve's dad di not get in trouble because it was 30 years ago and laws were not made to enforce the actions. If they had been i am certain he would have had a visit. As to why he faces no charges. Would you cut off your cash cow? I dont think so He generates way to much money for Queensland. It will take a very major act for them to not turn the blind eye they are.

The Sunday Telegraph also reported that after the crocodile feeding, Irwin and his American wife, Terri, told their five-year-old daughter, Bindi, to splash around in a pool near a crocodile pen to encourage the reptiles to swim out. "Now flail around and look helpless, that's the girl, good girl," Terri Irwin was quoted as saying. "That's my girl, Bindi Irwin, the other white meat."

Source http://www3.cjad.com/content/cjad_news/article.asp?id=e010421A
Irwin's American wife, Terri, had handed the baby over to Irwin in the enclosure and giggled at the spectacle.

"It was a wonderful sensory experience for him (the baby). He dug it," she said.

Source http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8307894%5E661,00.html

[tHeGiNo]

Ok now THAT is taking it a little too far...Your saying you actually believe they use their children for bait now! Come on now thats just being ridiculous...

[Mustangrde1]

THAT WAS THIER WORDS NOT MINE

[Dozer]

I love corndogs :)

[tHeGiNo]

All I can say is wow...if that is really true, then I would definitely see that as a problem.

[Dozer]

You know what the problem is Dave...

[Dozer]

...actually, nevermind, there is no problem... but I better see you at Afterlife Saturday night ;)

Mike

[a/RoCk..]

geez just give it a rest its his farken kid so let him do what he wants. hes wife didnt mind so nun of use should consdering its not of any1,s buisness.
i respect him 4 what he does he loves his animals.

[MedusaAthene]

That is pretty scary that people don't realize they're joking. But folks are going to read into things whatever they like. Human nature.

In any case, if this *is* a case of child abuse why is everyone only concerned with what goes on in public? Does that mean that private child abuse is alright, just so long as we don't see it?

Either it is, or it isn't. Either you don't care, or you're very upset about how someone else is treating/raising their children altogether rather than one incident.

Personally, I don't think they abuse their children, thus I'm not going to presume to tell them how to raise them. Steve loves his father, clearly doesn't seem to have any resentments or feel that he was abused. *shrugs* Bob is fine. Bindi-Sue is fine. In mho.

We're obviously not going to convince each other, I've said my piece, and I'm gonna move on.

[rwg]

The public thing gets raised because wether abuse is occurring or not is subjective. I dont believe this should be construed as abuse but many people clearly disagree, so there is a risk in doing what he did publicly. They need to manage public perception to a certain extent.

rg

[Mustangrde1]

It is so hard for people to look past Steve Irwin and their like for him because of his Shows which led to his public perception of being a great guy.

Many times I have seen it brought up its " Thier kids" or who gives us the right to interfer with how they or any person brings up their children.

I do not disagree that in some cases the laws go way overboard and take more rights from us as parents then should be allowed. Hell when i was in school you did wrong you got a quick introduction to the Board of education and im not talking about the Board where people sit on, im talking the one that meets where you sit. The Lawmakers took that tool of disapline from the teachers and now look at the schools and what occurs in them. I was never willing to meet the Board so i behaved and learned. Now we have kids who know teachers cant do anything really and it shows.
Many states will not allow us to spank our children they look at " Time out " as more effective. Hey I know how often i got my butt torn up for doing something wrong and sure did not make the same mistake again. Yes to much interferance by people is wrong and I whole heatedly agree to that.

However it is both are Moral and Ethical responciblity to set Safety laws to keep our children from dangers and to have them enforced. We require safty belts in cars. We require child safety seat in cars. there are a host of other things we have said yes kids do need to be protected from and create laws for thier safety.

Many Countries have Laws reguarding Wildlife and exacting laws on who / whom may inneract with these animals with age requirements and safety standards for the keeper, public and animals.

When a person violates these laws and endangers a child especially a well know figure on a media outlit We must look past our like and or dislike of the person and look at exactly what happened. Putting my feelings aside I saw a man in a crocadile paddock with an infant. That in itself is dangerous . Now the Man created a feeding situation which provokes the animal in to a feed responce. This just escalates the danger level. He then took the baby by the arms and bobbled it around the same paddock with no support for the infants head or neck. This is just plain and simple dangerous behavior to the child in a situation now where an animal is also already with a feeding responce active. Now combine that with the fact he did it for drama for the media. That is irresponcible and dangerous.

Luckily nothing serious happened this time! But I still need to look at the ramifications it could have had on our hobby and our ability to keep animals. I have said it before and will again. Mr Irwin is a role model for many up comming Herpers and his actions and stunts are mimiced by these new members to our community. These actions can have devestating effects on persons without his years of knowledge and training.

Before you reply think about all the replies and opinons on just this incodent alone and it had a good outcome. Now imagine had something gone very wrong and the baby been killed and what the out cry would have been. I know from seeing it in many states that one bad thing can lead to many new laws restricting our rights. Now Imagine what kind of calls politicians would be getting saying " WE DO NOT WANT PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY KEEPING THOSE" look at what happend to Steve Irwin and he knew what he was doing. Public out cry does create laws without reason.

Yes he is in Australia but as such a popular and well telvised person in other countries he can have an impact. How many of you know the Laws in Australia pertaining to Crocs in captivity?

Below link is to the Australian laws pertaining to crocadiles. Unfortuantely my PDF converter is broken so you will need to view it in PDF. After opening got to " E" and read.

http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publicati..._Queensland.pdf

Please read # 6 Demponstrations and handling

" C " STATES CLEARLY :Over-dramatisation and sensationalism of crocodile behaviour has a negative impact on community perceptions of crocodiles and is not to be undertaken.

"F" Goes on to state Park visitors should not be presented with examples of inappropriate behavior that might be copied by some people. Explain that the presenter is an experianced handler and that it would be unsafe for a member of the pyblic to copy the actions of the presenter

[rwg]

I agree with almost everything you've said. The question is not wether we as parents have the right to subject our children to dangerous situtations unnecessarily. The question is how much danger was his child in? I'm not qualified to make that call, and frankly most of us here are not better qualified to do so than Steve is. Does anyone here understand crocodile behavior better than Steve? The people likely to review the tape (child welfare workers) are even less qualified. Even Jack Hannah (sp?) on Larry King was *constantly" qualifying his opinion statements with things like "but Steve would know better than me", and such when talking about crocodile behavior. If this was a grizzly, I'd probably accept Jack's opinion over Steve's on the matter.

Yeah, I like Steve...many of us do, but my opinion stems from the fact that Steve is an acknowledged expert on crocodile behavior.

By the way, your link is broken, but the snippets you posted are not compelling IMO. It was not the crocodile's behavior that was being dramatised, and I dont know what sorts of disclaimers regarding Steve's experience were uttered before or after the clip that's been airing.

By the way, a few weeks ago on Killer Instinct, I saw Rob Bredl have some woman sit on the back of a HUGE crock. I dont recall the same uproar (or any mention at all) about putting others in danger.

Anyway, I see and respect your points, but I have a certain amount of faith in Steve's ability to assess the risk involved.

rg

[AymKing]

I love Steve and we all make mistakes, this was just bad judgement on his part and I think he realizes it. Thank God no one was hurt.

[Mustangrde1]

Sorry about the link its been messing up all day. try this one.

http://access.adobe.com/perl/convertPDF.pl

Just incase

Note: In the following information, the general terms crocodile/ s refers to all three species of
crocodilian covered in this document. Information about particular species will be stated as
such — freshwater crocodile, estuarine crocodile, American alligators or alligators.


In this document, where reference is made to adequate experience, knowledge or
competency, this will be deemed adequate in the opinion of the chief executive of the
Department of Environment and Heritage, on advice of the executive of the Queensland
Wildlife Parks Association.


In this document, reference is made to the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide
For The Crocodile Industry. This was produced by the Department of Training and Industrial
Relations under provisions of the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 and is administered
by that department.


Husbandry
1.1 Keeper qualifications
A suitably qualified wildlife keeper must be nominated to be in charge of displays, and must
have a demonstrated knowledge of the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For
The Crocodile Industry, and must have the following minimum experience and skills:


(For definitions of hatchling, juvenile, sub-adult and adult crocodiles, see Appendix 3 of the
Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.)
a) To be in charge of hatchlings or juvenile crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must
have:
i) at least 12 months' full-time work with a reptile display and a demonstrated
knowledge of heating and/ or basking requirements, and basic reptile
husbandry;
ii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion; and
iii) experience and competency in safe handling methods, minimising danger to
attendants and stress to animals.
b) To be in charge of sub-adult crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must have:
i) at least six months' full-time work with a crocodile display;
ii) experience and competency in heating and/ or basking requirements and
basic reptile husbandry;
iii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion;
iv) experience and competency in the capture and transportation procedures for
crocodiles, and a demonstrated knowledge of the safety zones specified in
the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile
Industry.
c) To be in charge of adult crocodiles, a wildlife keeper must have:
i) at least 12 months' full-time work with a crocodile display;
ii) experience and competency in the heating and/ or basking requirements,
basic reptile husbandry and territoriality and aggression in adult crocodiles;
iii) a knowledge of the relationship between air and water temperatures and
crocodile digestion;
iv) a demonstrated ability to identify obese, emaciated or stressed specimens;
and
v) experience and competency in the capture and transportation procedures for
crocodiles, and a demonstrated knowledge of the safety zones specified in
the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile
Industry. 35

6 Demonstrations and handling Wildlife parks play a valuable role in educating their visitors about crocodiles and their
habitat, especially the dangers associated with living in or visiting areas where crocodiles
occur.


a) During a demonstration for the public, a crocodile's natural behavior such as feeding
behavior, thermoregulation, locomotion, mating and nesting should be emphasised
at all times.
b) Hand-feeding of crocodiles of any size for educational shows should be undertaken
only by an accredited wildlife keeper as specified in the Division of Workplace Health
and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.
c) Over-dramatisation and sensationalism of crocodile behaviour has a negative impact
on community perceptions of crocodiles and is not to be undertaken.
d) Basic ecological and biological information is necessary to present an accurate
picture of a crocodile's life history and how it interacts with its environment.
e) Information about the risks associated with living in or visiting a crocodile habitat is
essential to help visitors behave safely.
f) Park visitors should not be presented with examples of inappropriate behaviour that
might be copied by some people. Explain that the presenter is an experienced
handler and that it would be unsafe for a member of the public to copy the actions of
the presenter.
g) Only crocodiles under 1.2m in total length should be used in mobile displays. The
crocodile must at all times be under the supervision of an experienced crocodile
keeper and, when not being used in a demonstration, must be returned to its display
or transport box.
h) At no time can a park visitor be granted access to a crocodile enclosure, or be
permitted to feed a crocodile over a fence. 42
42 Page 43 44
i) Entry to crocodile exhibits by authorised people other than keepers is permitted,
provided the following conditions are observed:
i) In the opinion of the employer, the risk of crocodile attack has been
minimised;
ii) The person is accompanied at all times by a guard;
iii) The person has been instructed in relevant safety issues and has indicated
that the or she understands the instructions and agrees to conform to all safety
directions given by the employer or company representative while in the
enclosure; and
iv) Entry follows all procedures stated in the Division of Workplace Health and
Safety G uide For The Crocodile Industry.


7 Health and safety Refer to the Division of Workplace Health and Safety Guide For The Crocodile Industry.


8 Provisions of other Acts The above exhibit standards of the QWPA are to be taken as the recommended minimum
standards for wildlife parks to achieve, and are not in derogation of the provisions of other
relevant Acts and Regulations including the Nature Conservation Act and Workplace Health
and Safety Act. 43

[marisa]

I am sorry but thoughts like this are the exact reason the world today is slowly wrapping itself in protective knee pads and making sure anything fun is outlawed:

"In any case, if this *is* a case of child abuse"

How in the world could this even be CLOSE to child abuse? Are you serious here? Do you even know what REAL child abuse is? Have you ever talked to children who have been mentally, or sexually abused? Frankly they would LOVE to go feed crocs at Steves park. That's not abuse. That's an opportunity. And the fact you are calling THAT abuse is really offensive considering some children have gone through REAL abuse.

I am glad you guys aren't my parents. I wouldn't want to grow up in a padded bubble.

Marisa

[Yness]

The problem that people are having with this thread is the confusion of "child abuse" with "parental negligence". I don't think that Steve was doing either one. As has been said again and again the man knows what he's doing with crocs, more specifically this one croc who has been in his zoo for some length of time. If it was a freshly acquired croc there would be a problem, but it wasn't so there isn't IMO

Yness