Handling BCI's

[BoaBoi]

I just bought my BCI from the petstore, and found again like I did with my bal pythons that I'm constantly worried about my snakes temperature while I'm handling him. I keep them out of their cage alot and their temperature always drops fast, I'm wondering if this is harmful to the snakes or if they will be fine like this. They don't get REALLY cold, but cool to the touch. They seem to stay active and act fine, but I just don't know if they don't know any better themselves :P Any replys are greatly appreciated.

James~

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

They are fine, this is normal, they will remain active because of your body heat. Dont worry, just let them heat up when they go back in.

[BoaBoi]

Thanks, I really appreciate the reply. One more question, will having them out for an extended period of time hurt them? I like to have them out with me around the house which is kept at 70-75 during the day while my mother is at work.

James~

[Invictus]

Well, no handling session should ever exceed 15 mins or so. If you're talking about having him out all day, that's mauling, not handling. :) 15 minutes at those temps won't hurt your boa at all. They are always cold to the touch, because they are cold-blooded critters that don't produce their own body heat.

[BoaBoi]

Well, My friend has a female BCI that roams his room 24/7. It even sleeps with him, yet the snake itself is in perfect health. I was just wondering about those temps, his house is a bit warmer than mine. Then again mine doesn't roam the house 24/7.

James~

[Invictus]

If your friend letts his BCI roam his room and sleep with him, for starters, I can guarantee you the snake is NOT in perfect health, and secondly, your friend does not deserve to be owning a BCI. It is a SNAKE, not a fricken DOG. The entire reason to have it in an enclosure is for the SNAKE'S safety, as well as yours. Not to mention, it aids in making sure you have the right temperatures for the snake. Pass this information onto your friend for me, and please, DO NOT learn from his utter stupidity.

[BoaBoi]

Well, the snake I own is going to have one the best enclosures that you can get pre-made. I should arive sometime next week, for right now I have him in a ventalated critter box with a small hide, human heating pad, and water dish...He really seems to like the hide.

James~

[BoAddict]

Letting a boa or any reptile roam around freely is just plain stupid and your asking for problems.
and to let a boa sleep with you is just plain stupid again as it could constrict your friend while he sleeps and there would be nothing your friend could do about it.

[BoaBoi]

I hear alot about people argueing that they are wild animals and will always have some instinct to kill. Once I see a snake eating p/k rats from you hand without even constricting it I beleive that the boa is tame as a dog for life. I also agree with you that sleeping with a snake is dumb because you never know when a snake is dog tame. If your asleep your not going to wake up to a lack of oxygen as that itself induces sleeping.

James~

[C.Marshell]

Well, My friend has a female BCI that roams his room 24/7. It even sleeps with him,

Sounds like another up and comming news story LOL!

[BoaBoi]

LOL, That was a good one.

James~

[zouleous]

Your friend needs to have that boa taken from him. He is NOT responsible owner and is exactly why laws are passed that punish the rest of us.

Z

[Invictus]

I agree with Zouleous, and BoaBoi, if you think that ANY boa is "puppy tame for life", you are practicing a DANGEROUS belief that also gets people attacked, and gets laws passed that affect the rest of us. No wild animal is EVER guaranteed to be completely tame. Your friend needs to realize a few things:

1) If he rolls over onto that boa, he's going to hurt it. If you hurt a boa, it will bite, or do worse.
2) Unless he keeps his house at 95 degrees, the boa is COLD. A cold boa becomes an aggressive boa.
3) A mauled boa also can become an aggressive boa.

Also, you say in one breath that when a boa eats P/K from your hand without even constricting, it's puppy tame for life, then you say you never know when it's puppy tame. You contradicted yourself.

I'm not trying to come down hard on you here, but you seem to me to be young and naive, and your beliefs are going to lead to carelessness, and your carelessness will inevitably lead to an attack someday. It is not tame for life, and will react to stress just like any other wild animal.

[djc3674]

:eek: Where are people's common sense??? Maybe when he wakes up next to a huge load of crap and some urine, he wont let it sleep with him anymore!!

[BoaBoi]

Some points there I totally agree with, and I always try to keep all of my pets, not just snakes, stress free. It's very hard to do and in some cases impossible, but never the less I try constantly. As far as him needing to have the snake taken away I see no point in that, granted it's dumb to do that with a wild animal, but it's still his baby. Pit bulls and Rottwhielers aren't any different, but some people live with them a long time w/o one "misshap". Thanks for all the posts guy/gals~I didn't realize this was such a contraversial topic.

James~

[C.Marshell]

Pit bulls and Rottwhielers aren't any different,

MUCH, different!

[djc3674]

Pit bulls and Rottwhielers aren't any different, but some people live with them a long time w/o one "misshap".

Are you freakin kidding me???? Pit Bulls and Rott's are TOTALLY different. They are warm blooded domesticated animals that are obedient to there owners, with the exception of those cases when a Pitt or Rotty turned on someone. But you can make just about any dog mean and aggressive. A cold blooded reptile has no sense of love or devotion to its owner, it is a wild animal living in capitivity and has certain requirements that need to be met. MAN...the depth of people's ignorance kills me. I cant believe he said that dogs are no different!!

[tHeGiNo]

Once I see a snake eating p/k rats from you hand without even constricting it I beleive that the boa is tame as a dog for life. I also agree with you that sleeping with a snake is dumb because you never know when a snake is dog tame. If your asleep your not going to wake up to a lack of oxygen as that itself induces sleeping.

LMFAO that has got to be the most ridiculous, utterly stupid thing I have seen in quite a while. Again, LOL! First of all, feeding from your hand #1 shows me your friend is a moron, and so are you if you plan to follow in his footsteps. Secondly, I am not even going to bother...Actually a few more things to say. What University of BCI did you go to which allows you to assume a boa is tame because it does not constrict dead prey? LoL I find that rather amusing. Also, if I am not mistaken, his snake not constricting the prey is not a good thing...

Oh and another thing. Dogs have been domesticated for years now. They have grow accustomed to living and interacting with humans. Snakes do not have the capablity for emotions or anything of the sort such as dogs to, and there are a billion other things which explain how snakes are different from dogs. One more laugh, LOL!

[BoaBoi]

I'm glad you're so good at complaining and demeaning others, and if you don't think enough of the animals to give them the binefit of the doubt however wrong you may be, you don't deserve the right to speak about them.

James~

[tHeGiNo]

What exactly do you mean by not thinking enough of the animals to give them the benefit of the doubt. Heh, thanks for another laugh.

[tHeGiNo]

Whoops, I mean giving then the binefit, not benefit.

[BoaBoi]

I dispise people who get their post count by flaming legit posts.

James~

[djc3674]

LMAO...id love to see him give the benefit of doubt to an 18 ft Retic........UMMM.... has anyone seen boaboi ????? lol

[C.Marshell]

Boaboi,
I think you will find the people here do think highly of the animals, in fact most are very pasionate about them,Thats why they react the way they do. I don't think anyone means to attack you/or your friend...and alot of the people are more than willing to give you proper husbandry advice if asked for. Wich i believe your friend is in desperate need of!

[BoaBoi]

An 18 ft retic?? Treat them right and 95% of the time they will be very nice animals, the other 5% are snakes that just want to be left alone. Hence the hissing and pulling away, if your not smart enough to leave it alone after those warnings, your DUMB. I give all animals the binefit of the doubt, while using common sense. I have handled copperheads and what not I find outside every chance I get, I'm an animal lover plain and simple. Of course you use common sense and secure the head till you know wether or not it's in a bad mood or not.

James~

[tHeGiNo]

I am sorry that you DISPISE (despise ;)) people who make flaming posts, but you still haven't answered the question. How is anyone not thinking enough of the snakes to give them the benefit of the doubt?

[BoaBoi]

Didn't realise that question was in the air so to speak. If you think that the animal will attack someone sooner or later then you don't. Same EXACT thing with vertain dogs(ie. Pit Bull) Many people own these beautiful animals without any misshaps, while other more stupid people misstreat the animal and end up getting hurt or killed themselves or others.

James~

[BoaBoi]

Certain*

James~

[tHeGiNo]

Well when people get pitbulls, they are either stupid are smart. The smart person would understand these animals, as beautiful as they are, HAVE THE ABILITY TO INFLICT SERIOUS DAMAGE, EVEN KILL us. The owner would take this into consideration and treat the dog with this in mind, making sure he/she is properly trained, making sure he is caged up in the backyard and can't escape, making sure people do not pet the dog if we know he might bite. The irresponsible person just wont give a damn. They will get the animal to be 'tough' or 'cool' and they are the dogs which end up being killed and owners fined. Now just put that all into correllation with your boa. You UNDERSTAND it has the capabilty to inflict SERIOUS damage, or possibly KILL you. You understand there are other people out there who love these animals, treat them properly, and do everything possible to make sure no one gets hurt due to irresponsibility. They understand that their irresponsibilty affects everyone. If your friend gets hurt from his snake, and it goes public, say goodbye to your right to own this animal. The RESPONSIBLE owner knows the snake is from a much warmer place, where it may retreat to areas of 95 degrees and up so it may properly digest. They know a freeroaming boa is a stupid idea. Period. There are numerous reasons why, and I hope I do not have to lay these out for you.

[Snakemancole]

I have a Hog Island boa who will take P/K rats from my hand and seldom constricts. Do I sleep with her,,,,no. Do I trust her,,,,,no. She is a snake, not a pillow! Tame is a term used to much in this hobby. There are no tame snakes.

[BoaBoi]

Good point dude, but then again he has a human heating pad set on medium in the corner, if the snake wants it goes there. As far as the other comments about the responsabilities I agree with you 100% but you have to realize that the snake itself isn't and possible threat if treated correctly. I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault, it's always either doing that stuff with a non"tame" snake of SFE(Stupid Feeding Error). Which in that case It is the owners fault as usual, about the same thing goes with any animal.

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not. Now a retic can do such, and talking about snakes like that is another story but remember we are talking about Boas, and at that BCI which remains smaller.

James~

[djc3674]

I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling)

How do you know they "like" being handled, just because they tolerate it without hissing or striking????

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not. Now a retic can do such, and talking about snakes like that is another story but remember we are talking about Boas, and at that BCI which remains smaller.

Dude, you need a reality check. Have you ever handled an 8-10 ft girthy BCI. They are powerful as hell. If you think for a second that you will be able to pull it off of you (easily) if it constricts around your neck or torso...YOU ARE MISTAKEN!!! However, it is not as common when dealing with boas that this happens, but dont underestimate the power of a full grown boa.

Its your kind of thinking that enables accidents to happen.

[tHeGiNo]

Amen. And I really apologize if I came off as a prick. However, you must understand this is wrong, understand that for what it is, and change accordingly. Why is it wrong? First off is safety. This is clear as a freshly cleaned window (:)), in that having a loose snake means accidentally rolling over him, scaring him, possibly causing an attack. You risk the boa mistaking a moving body part for a prey item, and again an attack. As Snakemancole said, there is no such thing as a tame snake. There is a level to which they tolerate us, yes, and that varies with each animal. There are several other cases where the snake may injure you, and I will let your imagination take care of them. If you don't mind getting hurt from this, or ignore the REAL possibilty and capability of a fullgrown BCI to kill you, then one would have to think about everyone else on this small planet. Like I mentioned earlier, accidents because of irresponsibility like this example infront of us is what leads to bylaws, stripping responsible keepers of their right to keep these beautiful animals due to unecessary stupidity. After considering personal well-being, think of the snake. He cannot digest properly in 75 degrees, nor will he be comfortable living in this environment. Improper temperatures leads to MANY other health problems, stunt growth for example. Not being a vet, I cannot list everything. Then think of all the items in a room with a free-roaming snake that could injure him. Then the possibility of the snake getting into vents, getting stuck, and dying. You must also consider the fact that this snake is going to be defecating on the floor, on furniture, etc. This is definitely unsanitary. It is also very difficult to keep a room clean and bacteria free then it would to a properly kept cage. Again, there are MANY other things which may injure the snake, but I will leave that to your imagination once again.

Moral of the story: accept the advice. Help your friend to correct where he is wrong. I am guessing the snake is fullgrown if it is freeroaming. Tell your friend to get a nice 4 foot long enclosure. Stick some heat pads underneath and acheive a basking spot of 95 degrees. Keep him on a good substrate, newspaper would work brilliantly. Give the snake a nice big water bowl, and a hide on each side. You two provide the proper home for your snake, which it seems you are interested in doing, and call it a done deal. I will end this with a question: could you tell me one good reason, key word there was good, why to have a snake free roam. I am sure you cannot answer this question. As a good buddy of mine advised me while discussing this thread (;) you know who you are lmao) your friend needs our help, not to be ridiculed against. He was right. Me bitching at you was not helping anything. So now I hope I came off a lot nicer, and worked to fix the cause. Now I can just hope you take my advice. Have a great day.

[tHeGiNo]

Again, I must correct you. Not critisize, correct so that you may learn.

I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault

There is no such thing as a tame snake. Get that word out of your vocabulary. You will be much better off without it. Second, there is NO such thing as a snake that likes handling. NONE, what-so-ever. The snake TOLERATES you handling him.

Lesson: there are no tame snakes. No snake likes being handled. The snake rather puts up with you, and again this varies from individual to individual (snake). Improper husbandry is taking unecessary risks. Your friend is taking an unecessary risk. Period.

Second. Do NOT think that a boa cannot hurt you. DO NOT FOR A SECOND THINK THAT. You could not be farther from the truth. I have put one of my four foot ball pythons around my neck, and you would not believe how much they can constrict. I am confident, if this ball python wanted to, he could have squeezed tight enough to choke me to death.

On another note very rarely does a boa get big enough to do any major harm to someone giving that they are over 16 or so, even the true boas do not.

Saying things like that will make people lose a lot of respect for you. Or at least I lost respect for you when I read that. I was thinking you were a smart guy. Maybe you are, but believe me, an adult BCI could do plenty harm to you. Thinking otherwise is stupid. You must learn to respect the power these creatures have before you can properly care for one. That attitude will get yourself in trouble.

[tHeGiNo]

Like he said, have you ever held a full grown BCI? A healthy one, I should say. If your speaking in reference to your friends boa I wouldn't doubt you living in the conditions he is, I am suprised the snake is still alive.

[BoaBoi]

I for one do understand the power thes beautiful animals poses, and do have a 4'x2'x17" cage in the mail as we chat. As far and have I ever handled a full grown boa, no...But I have handled a 9' boa before, and an very nice albino reticulated python which was 13' when i handled her. As far as being smart, I have no idea, I'm told I am constantly but isnt everyone? I do know ALOT about snakes, much more than your average person, but I will not assume that I know all there is about them. There is ALWAYS something new to learn, thus the main reason for these forums.

James~

[tHeGiNo]

Awesome man, I am thrilled you are providing the proper care for your boa. As long as you take our advice, and learn from it and change because of it, your are the biggest one here. Now, make yourself even greater of your person and change your friends mind on husbandry. Do us all a favor, including yourself.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I do know ALOT about snakes, much more than your average person, but I will not assume that I know all there is about them.

I'm sorry James, but thus far you have proven to us beyond any shadow of a doubt that you lack even the most BASIC knowledge about snakes. Now, I am personally sick to DEATH of people saying that snakes merely TOLERATE handling, because not one person here is an expert in animal psychology, and not one study has ever been conducted on this. I personally own a few snakes that get VERY stressed out if they are not taken out of their cages and interacted with on a semi-daily basis. So on this point I will defend you - until someone shows me their degree in animal psychology, assuming that snakes only tolerate handling is equally ridiculous to assuming that they require it.

HOWEVER, you seem to lack basic knowledge, namely the number of things that can go wrong from having a free-roaming snake in your house. You seem to lack the knowledge of the sheer power of even a 6 foot BCI. You seem to lack the knowledge of a snake's capabilities. You seem to think that snakes are just like dogs, which are a PACK animal and will obey whoever they feel is the alpha. So far, I'm sorry James... but you have a LOT to learn before you can say that you know "A LOT" about snakes.

And though I disagree with theGino's assessment of likes vs. tolerates handling, the rest of his advice, as well as the advice that others have given you here regarding getting the word TAME out of your head is extremely sound advice. Tame is simply a relative term. I have a "tame" blood python - I call her this because she has never hissed (until very recently, and it was only because she was hungry), struck, bitten, or jumped. But you know what? I treat her as though she could snap my finger off any time. In expecting this, I am preparing for it. In preparing for it, I'm not making the classic handling mistakes that tend to lead to bites. See the point here? You make assumptions that are just plain WRONG. ANY snake can and will bite you if it feels uncomfortable or stressed in any way. Your friend is a moron, plain and simple. He is going to get boas banned for all of us. PLEASE do not follow in his footsteps, and take the advice that is being given to you here. Thanks.

[djc3674]

I agree. Our CB snakes do (to an extent) like the interaction. They have grown up not knowing anything else. They were born and raised in captivity and kinda get used to being handled. However, I am unsure Invictus how you know your snakes get VERY stressed if not handed on a semi-daily basis. After all, noone here is an animal psychologist. What signs do they give you that lead you to believe this? I know for myself, my 7FT BCI will appear to want to come out of his tank, but when I go to pick him up he tries to get away. Once I have him out he is fine, he settles down and will relax on me. As a matter of fact, when I try to put him back, he is a pain in the butt, he fights like heck and doesn't want to go in.
However, its not the same as that of a cat or dog, that will actually seek out attention. I think we as snake keepers enjoy the interaction with them more than they do with us. Overhandling can stress them out just as much as neglecting them.

BTW Invictus, in no way am I belittling (sp) your experience w/ reptiles. I have been keeping snakes for over 2 years now, and I am a kindergartner compared to alot of people on this site. I'm just curious what signs you see that make you feel that they get stressed if not handled every few days??

[hip]

“Tolerates” versus “likes”

Hmmm…… How about changing the word “likes” to familiar
, might be a better description of Boa/ keeper interaction. Regular interaction coupled with a Boa’s excellent olfactory sense and the unique pheromones of the keeper could lead to familiarity for the boa. (On the molecular level we all have a different and unique scent) I have two boa’s that fit into the two descriptions perfectly. Female Bci will hiss once and a while and wants to be left alone will tolerate some handling but prefers to just hang out on the floor. Never wants to come out of her enclosure and goes back in like a bullet when I put her back in. Male Bci on the other hand will stay right on me for as long as he is out. I can place him on the floor (while I am on the computer, always in my view) and within a few minuets he is right there working his way up my leg wanting to hang out with me. (First time I have seen this in many years of keeping boa’s) He always wants out of his enclosure and never wants to go back in. So two boa’s who live in similar conditions and have the same environment and the same surroundings both display two totally different behaviors.




I fully agree with everyone who has made it a point to point out the sheer power of any type of constrictor. You get a 6 foot boa wrapped around your arm that does not want to let go it is very difficult to get them off (I don’t care how big or strong you are) Respect and caution are two of the greatest tools that can be used by any keeper of large boids. When I say large I mean 6 feet and up (no does not mean 4 or 5 feet are not included in the respect and caution category) Keep long enough and you will get bitten buy even the most docile snake , and you will have moments of concern if you handle big snakes alone. Be safe big stuff should have 2 people if you are not experienced with proper handling. Just don’t put yourself in a position of compromise if you are alone and use common sense and in certain situations proper tools.



Caterpillars never never never wear brown boots




Hip

[MouseKilla]

It's true. I also hate the brown boots, that's why the toes have gone blue... and I say my name: RedShoe

[Linds]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
Once I see a snake eating p/k rats from you hand without even constricting it I beleive that the boa is tame as a dog for life.


Quite a few of my snakes do not constrict their prey, and (handfeeding is a bad and possibly dangerous habit to get in to) many of them will not even strike at it. Some of the babies I will not bother with the tongs on occassion and they will just take it from my hand (caution- bad habit, and shouldn't be done with medium and large sized animals) gently and gulp it down. Guaranteed if I tossed a live one in their they would strike and constrict without hesitation. Snakes are not thinking/feeling animals, they are missing that part of their brain, hence they act purely on instinct. They can never be considered "tame".

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I have head of NO injuries from "tame" snakes(Meaning snakes that liek handling) that were the snakes fault, it's always either doing that stuff with a non"tame" snake of SFE(Stupid Feeding Error). Which in that case It is the owners fault as usual, about the same thing goes with any animal.


Accidents like that are never the animals fault, as you said, but they are not necessarily all SFE. Most, if not all, human fatalities involving snakes have been from snakes that were deemed "dog tame" by their handlers. Most common incidence is the handler wearing the snake around their neck and having their snake contrict. There are many things other than scent that can provoke a feeding response, even something like feeling you breath and the pulse in your neck.

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Also, if I am not mistaken, his snake not constricting the prey is not a good thing...


Captive snakes not constricting their dead prey is quite common, and nothing to be alarmed of.

[Invictus]

Hip, you bring up an excellent point about familiarity instead of "like", because all of the snakes in question that I have that have a smiliar reaction to lack of interaction have been handled their whole lives, and arrived in my collection as adults. A couple of others have acclimated to being handled often.

djc - We're talking the classic signs of stress - cage cruising, hissing all the time, sometimes even refusing food dangled right in their face in favor of just coming out of the cage! My big boy Hades (the one I posted a pic of doing the stairmaster, hehehe) is the best example I have of this. He indicates to us that he wants out by either putting his nose right against the sliding glass doors, or cruising all the way to the top of the cage trying to climb out the top. The reason why I know he likes the interaction with people is because if I take the top off instead of opening the glass doors, he'll still come straight to me, instead of trying to get away from me... and in fact, he'll only come out so far, and if I walk away, he hisses LOUDLY. But then as soon as I pick him up, he's totally calm, and often times literally just sits there - occasional tongue flick, but he's quite content just being held. After about 15 minutes, sometimes as much as half an hour of handling, he puts up a fuss when we put him back in his cage, then he gives us the "I want out" indicators for about an hour, then he's fine.

Another example would be my adult corns who will do the same thing - take the lid of their rubbermaid off, they will come straight to me - not trying to get out on the other side of the cage. When out, they are typical corns - cruising ALL over the place. :) But, when handled directly, they calm right down, and are quite content being in their cages for a day or two afterward. Because they are naturally active and are absolute machines at feeding time, their signs of stress are far more subtle, but because I handle them a lot, they are easy for me to read. Morpheus, the biggest corn I own, has some dead giveaways of stress based on how tightly he holds on when handled. If I go more than a few days without interaction, he'll cut of the circulation in my hand, easily. When he gets handled every day or every couple of days, he'll fall out of my hands if I don't hold on.

The bahavior of my snakes and their own preferences / reactions to stimuli is something I pay extremely close attention to. Because I treat each snake as an individual, I know when they are stressed or content, and when they are about to give me a clear signal to leave them alone. (*CHOMP!*) In doing so, I've probably avoided quite a few potentially painful situations. :)

I have many more examples, but I figured I'd just use these 2.

[BoaBoi]

100% what I'm talking about, get to know your animals. Learn when they are or aren't stressed and wether or not they want to be handled. I consider a snake that NEEDS to be handled as tame, however there are different interpratations to the word tame. Use common sense with the animal, it may be tame but at all times they are wild animals and have the possibility to go straight into the instinct part simply because of a certain stemula. Even something as small as a jerky movement can make a somewhat "tame" snake have a feeding responce.

James~

[BoaBoi]

Originally posted by Linds
Most, if not all, human fatalities involving snakes have been from snakes that were deemed "dog tame" by their handlers.

Hello~DOG TAME...That's exactly how they are, most of them very good pets, but even dogs have attacked and killed people.

James~

[Invictus]

Still BoaBoi, I don't assume that he's "dog tame". Even my big boa could turn on me at any time. And I didn't say he "needs" to be handled. If I left him alone for a few weeks, he'd probably adjust to not being handled. It's not a NEED of snakes. However, I do believe that some snakes can adjust to it to the point of "liking" (or as hip pointed out, being familiar with) human contact.

[hip]

Son I think you are missing the point that so many keepers have posted here. I have been bitten more often by so called tame snakes than I ever have been by others(that includes w/c I have posessed in the past.) I have tried to get to know my boa's I have learned they are crappy playing cards. they prefer arnold movies to Tom Cruse movies and can hold thier own with me drinkin beer up to a 12 pack then I pull away while they snore off the beer.Snakes NEED proper housing proper temps proper humidity and proper feeding. They also do quite well with a proper light cycle based on the time of the year. A litle vitamine supplement on a prey item ever once and a while and a vet check up once or twice a year will just about do all that is required to keep them healthy and long lived. Save the "Hello" for some one who is not trying to help you out tude only gets tude.


Hip

[tHeGiNo]

Now, I am personally sick to DEATH of people saying that snakes merely TOLERATE handling, because not one person here is an expert in animal psychology, and not one study has ever been conducted on this. I personally own a few snakes that get VERY stressed out if they are not taken out of their cages and interacted with on a semi-daily basis. So on this point I will defend you - until someone shows me their degree in animal psychology, assuming that snakes only tolerate handling is equally ridiculous to assuming that they require it.

Thank you for agreeing with me on most things, but your contradicting yourself there. Your right, no one is an expert in animal psychology. Not me, not you. So how then can you say your snakes are stressed out if they are not taken out, and how would you know they like when you are handling them? I hate this debate, simply because there is not enough information out there to allow one to say firmly that they do or do not like being handled.

Hip, I think your familiarity theory is a good one, and may make sense. However, a snake being 'familiar' does not me it will still not strike at you, bite you, or defend itself from you. As long as one understands that, they are good to go.

I fully agree with everyone who has made it a point to point out the sheer power of any type of constrictor. You get a 6 foot boa wrapped around your arm that does not want to let go it is very difficult to get them off (I don’t care how big or strong you are) Respect and caution are two of the greatest tools that can be used by any keeper of large boids. When I say large I mean 6 feet and up (no does not mean 4 or 5 feet are not included in the respect and caution category) Keep long enough and you will get bitten buy even the most docile snake , and you will have moments of concern if you handle big snakes alone. Be safe big stuff should have 2 people if you are not experienced with proper handling. Just don’t put yourself in a position of compromise if you are alone and use common sense and in certain situations proper tools.

Brilliantly said, I specifically like the quote below:

Respect and caution are two of the greatest tools that can be used by any keeper of large boids

[Invictus]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Thank you for agreeing with me on most things, but your contradicting yourself there. Your right, no one is an expert in animal psychology. Not me, not you. So how then can you say your snakes are stressed out if they are not taken out, and how would you know they like when you are handling them? I hate this debate, simply because there is not enough information out there to allow one to say firmly that they do or do not like being handled.

Ah, but now you're contradicting yourself as well, because you said, very definitively, that there is NO SUCH THING as a snake that likes to be handled. I mentioned that I have some observations and experience with my own collection that would lead me to believe that some do. As for knowing when they are content, you're right - it can sometimes be hard to tell, depending on the snake. But when they are stressed, it's VERY easy to tell, and that is how I know they get stressed when they are not handled. Believe me, when my big Hades doesn't want to be handled, he lets us know that too. It's also pretty easy to tell when they are content, given their level of calmness, speed of breathing, frequency of tongue flicking, strength by which they hold on to you, etc. It's all about observation, and even a bit of speculation, I must admit. But I think it's irresponsible as well to be dismissive and say that no snake "likes" handling, end of story. Because there is still the possibility that this is an incorrect statement too.

[Oliverian]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but...
I give all animals the binefit of the doubt, while using common sense. I have handled copperheads and what not I find outside every chance I get, I'm an animal lover plain and simple. Of course you use common sense and secure the head till you know wether or not it's in a bad mood or not.
I seriously hope you aren't saying you go outside and secure copperhead's heads, and if you think they're in a good mood, you release the head and continue to handle them? Even if that's not what you meant, at the very least tell me you use snake hooks. I sincerely hope you don't freehandle the local venomous. Most (if not all) good experienced venemous keepers don't even do that. Could you mabye fill me in?

So are you going to help correct your friend's husbandry mistakes? I for one would respect you if you went and did that.

-TammyR

[tHeGiNo]

Ah yes, I guess I did say that, and I did contradict myself. But again I still think there is a lot of truth to that.

But when they are stressed, it's VERY easy to tell, and that is how I know they get stressed when they are not handled. Believe me, when my big Hades doesn't want to be handled, he lets us know that too.

Not really, and not always. Some snakes hide it, some show it. Like you said, we cannot log the psychology of the snakes, so we do not know for sure if they are stressed or not.

It's also pretty easy to tell when they are content, given their level of calmness, speed of breathing, frequency of tongue flicking, strength by which they hold on to you, etc. It's all about observation, and even a bit of speculation, I must admit. But I think it's irresponsible as well to be dismissive and say that no snake "likes" handling, end of story.

Again, just because they are not breathing fast, are smelling the air, and are gripping you tight, that STILL does not mean they LIKE or WANT to be handled. It means they are tolerating the handling. Right?

[tHeGiNo]

Oliverian, no actually I did not see that. I didn't notice he said to secure the head.

I give all animals the binefit of the doubt, while using common sense. I have handled copperheads and what not I find outside every chance I get, I'm an animal lover plain and simple. Of course you use common sense and secure the head till you know wether or not it's in a bad mood or not.

You are either really really irresponsible, and a few other choice words I would like to use in this situation, or you are lying. I hope to God you are lying, and don't go outside picking up copperheads and holding onto their heads until you THINK they are 'calm.' *sigh*

[Oliverian]

Gino, my thoughts exactly. I truly hope I am mistaken as well.

-TammyR

[hip]

Sweet J E A S U S I missed that one two I miss stuff when my beer level dips below 100 parts per million. Doesen't matter what mood a pit viper is in venom is venom.Coper head bites I have read are very painfull and some people experence pain for years due to nerve damage and loss of tissue. Well for some the best way to learn is by making a mistake. I hope boa boi dosen't fall into that category headlines like "boy bitten by copperhead" in the newspaper only give all snakes a bad rap which is something none of need in this politically correct anal retentive (fine line between the two if you ask me) world we live in. Like I said before respect and caution are great tools for all herpers if used correctly.



Well time to get that beer level back up to were it should be



HIP

[tHeGiNo]

Despite the very serious topic, LMAO!

[HetForHuman]

Originally posted by hip
Sweet J E A S U S I missed that one two I miss stuff when my beer level dips below 100 parts per million.



Well time to get that beer level back up to were it should be



HIP

OMG man that is the funniest thing i've heard in awhile.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

C.MARSHELL:

Yeap I hear you on that, that is all we need more negative news reports on large boids, lol.

Cya...

Tony

[BoaBoi]

Originally posted by Oliverian
I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but...

I seriously hope you aren't saying you go outside and secure copperhead's heads, and if you think they're in a good mood, you release the head and continue to handle them? Even if that's not what you meant, at the very least tell me you use snake hooks. I sincerely hope you don't freehandle the local venomous. Most (if not all) good experienced venemous keepers don't even do that. Could you mabye fill me in?

So are you going to help correct your friend's husbandry mistakes? I for one would respect you if you went and did that.

-TammyR

More or less you are correct, I wouldn't just pick it up and release the head as you put it but more like observe it for a few days. Long enough handling it for it to know I'm not goin to harm it. Then and only then letting it have free range, I have done this with 2 venomous snakes(copperhead) and have not been bitten yet. I do understand the severety of this and how dangerous it can be, but I simply don't care. It's about the same as finding a black widow inside and picking it up and putting it outside. Most people would "Squish" it, I simply move them. Although with snakes my interest are peaked and I tend to mess with them for a while before letting them go.

James~

P.S. I really don't care what your opinion is of me, this is just how I am. I am recless, I admit it, but this really isn't any more dangerous than alot of things people do when you use common sense.

[HetForHuman]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I do understand the severety of this and how dangerous it can be, but I simply don't care.

James~



This has got to be the most stupidest thing i have ever seen anybody say. You have to grab a clue man.

I'm sorry but this is the kind of attitude that gets people hurt and possibly killed when messing with venomous snakes. And also sheds a very bad light on all reptile keepers.

In my opinion you should'nt be able to even look at a reptile, nevermind own one.

[Invictus]

I agree, Het. James, you need to extract your head from your arse and start taking a look at the real world, and I mean the SAME VERSION of reality that the sane world tends to acknowledge. You're not Reckless, you're not a daredevil, you're a fricken moron, plain and simple. I hope that when a copperhead tags you (WHEN, not IF), that the poison jars you back into reality. Idiots like you have no business whatsoever owning herps. You're just going to get them banned for the rest of us. WAKE THE HELL UP.

[Yness]

Interesting....We seem to have a Darwin Award Contender here...

[ranmasatome]

Darwin Award contender....lol!!!

After reading all this...i really dont know what to feel...some people eh? lol

[BoidKeeper]

I'm sorry but this is the kind of attitude that gets people hurt and possibly killed when messing with venomous snakes. And also sheds a very bad light on all reptile keepers.
My thoughts exactly Het. Well said.
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Ah geezes, you've done it to yourself now man... I knew you were headed for a big "WAKE THE HELL UP!" from Invictus, it was but a matter of time. Congratulations, you've earned it!lol!

Now I expect a lot of people are gonna say not to handle venomous snakes, that it's dangerous, that your ensuing death will look bad on those of us that keep snakes responsibly, well I'm not one of those people. You see I am a man of faith, I believe in the will of God and I think that if you feel compelled to "mess" with copperheads then maybe it's your destiny to do so. Yes perhaps The Almighty has his reasons for putting you in the express lane bound for the afterlife, who are we to second guess Him?

[MajickSprings]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
Pit bulls and Rottwhielers aren't any different, but some people live with them a long time w/o one "misshap".
James~

Whoa whoa whoa....I own pit bulls AND snakes and let me tell you....there is NO compairing snakes and pit bulls. I would trust my son with my pit bulls long before I would trust him with any of my snakes no matter how long I've had the snakes.

Originally posted by djc3674
Pit Bulls and Rott's are TOTALLY different. They are warm blooded domesticated animals that are obedient to there owners, with the exception of those cases when a Pitt or Rotty turned on someone. But you can make just about any dog mean and aggressive.

I actually have yet to meet a pit bull that just "turns" on someone. Heck, I have yet to meet a human aggressive pit bull period. 95% of the darn "pit bull attacks" are not even "pit bulls" to begin with but dogs of other breeds....including mix breeds.

Originally posted bytHeGiNo
Well when people get pitbulls, they are either stupid are smart. The smart person would understand these animals, as beautiful as they are, HAVE THE ABILITY TO INFLICT SERIOUS DAMAGE, EVEN KILL us. The owner would take this into consideration and treat the dog with this in mind, making sure he/she is properly trained, making sure he is caged up in the backyard and can't escape, making sure people do not pet the dog if we know he might bite.

I have to point out something here...the smart owner will socialize their dog and make sure as many people as possible do pet their dog! If a dog becomes a man-biter it needs to be put down ASAP. Period. I get so sick of people saying that pit bulls are dangerous animals when they are not. I would rather have my 4 year old son around pit bulls than golden retrievers or any other breed of dog.

*gets off soap box now*

[foman]

HMMM.. this thread reminds me of something....Hmmm......so what do you guys think of rubbermaids.:D

[Auskan]

Originally posted by BoaBoi
I for one do understand the power thes beautiful animals poses, and do have a 4'x2'x17" cage in the mail as we chat.
James~

What happened to the concept of getting the cage all set up, temps worked out for cool/warm ends of the cage etc prior to even bringing the snake home?

[Linds]

I'm all out of opinion on this topic... everyone's said all that can be said and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse.

Originally posted by MajickSprings
I would rather have my 4 year old son around pit bulls than golden retrievers or any other breed of dog.


LOL...very true. You cannot get some types of insurance if you own a retriever (they make up the top reported human attacks in N. America). I also agree with the pitties agression towards other dogs, they weren't bred to be man-eaters, they were selectively bred for centuries to be loyal to their human companion, while highly aggressive towards other dogs. As with any animal, it becomes what you help mould it in to. I've yet to meet a pit that showed any aggression towards humans.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Ah geezes, you've done it to yourself now man... I knew you were headed for a big "WAKE THE HELL UP!" from Invictus, it was but a matter of time. Congratulations, you've earned it!lol!


ROFL!!!! I bet the trademark Invictus "WAKE THE HELL UP" done learned him, eh? :D

[MouseKilla]

He was on a collision course with your patented wake up call in much the same way playing with the copperheads has him hurtling toward the grave. When the inevitable happens though, and we read about it in the paper, don't get angry. Instead just send a copy of this thread to the papers, it illustrates just how responsible the real herpers are and how we are the first ones to intervene when someone is being a tool. Who knows maybe it will be a net gain for us as far as publicity goes, we may do well with a martyr.LOL!

[djc3674]

I actually have yet to meet a pit bull that just "turns" on someone

This is true in a sense. I for one, have been attacked my friends Pit. I do believe it was not full bred though. Nonetheless, it just snapped one day. This was a dog that was used to me and for some reason, he decided to bite me. Every since that day, the dog was not good around people. It was very aggressive and mean. This dog was not abused nor used in fighting. He doesnt have the dog anymore.

As for another friend, he has a Rotty that he has had since a pup. This was the nicest, gentlest dog I have met (still is pretty much). Accept one day, he snipped at my friends daughter. Any dog of any breed is capapble of biting at any given moment. For the most part, it pretty much falls on the owner and how the dog has been raised and trained.

I would rather have my 4 year old son around pit bulls than golden retrievers or any other breed of dog.

Come on now bro, thats stretching it. I have a pug that is the most loving dog I have owned. I would trust him before any pitbull. Maybe because he is mine and I love him, but still. If in the event that he did bite my son, his mouth is so small it wouldn't do much damage. On the other hand, if a pitbull were to bite a kid, their jaws are so powerful, it could be devastating. Now dont get me wrong, I like pitbulls, I think they are beautiful dogs, but you never put 100% trust in any animal.

[ceasar1127]

I am new to keeping snakes, that's why i'm here. I don't own a boa but my brother does and I handle her alot. I have a few balls, a coastal carpet and a cali king. I don't know ALOT about snakes but I know enough to tell this moron that lets copperheads have "free range" and then defends his idiot friend that sleeps with his bci, that I don't think either one of you should own a snake or any other animal for that matter! AND another thing, "I DON'T CARE' you made that very obvious! I belong to alot of snake groups and I can tell you that I have never until now ran across somebody that bragged about "knowing alot about snakes" and then ate his own foot! I think you should start caring and take the advice of some of the "real snake keepers" that have posted and learn something. Gary

[hip]

QUOTE]but I simply don't care[/QUOTE]




Sorry folks I have been pretty busy being a manager for the last few days so I have not been keeping up with this thread. The specific quote above gave me chills. Lets explore the simple statement above. Here is what I simply don't care about.

(1) How much Bill Gates is worth
(2) Britney's publicity stunt.
(3)How many calories are in a beer.
And so one and so forth

It would seem natural selection is at work here so we should all take notes as to what Boaboi says he does and not do it. What James does not realise is, Many others read this forum,and what he says he does could lead other less experenced herpers to do what he is currently doing. Thusly you are not only endangering yourself but others who may not know the dire consequences of your actions.Like Invictus said in a previous post on this thread "pull your head out of your arse" (perfect, simple bit of advice) not to mention the air will be much fresher and the higher oxygen content will help clear your mind.


Hip

[MajickSprings]

Originally posted by djc3674
Come on now bro, thats stretching it. I have a pug that is the most loving dog I have owned. I would trust him before any pitbull. Maybe because he is mine and I love him, but still. If in the event that he did bite my son, his mouth is so small it wouldn't do much damage. On the other hand, if a pitbull were to bite a kid, their jaws are so powerful, it could be devastating. Now dont get me wrong, I like pitbulls, I think they are beautiful dogs, but you never put 100% trust in any animal.

First...I'm a female thus not your bro ;)

Second...I'm not "stretching it" by my comment that I'd rather leave my 4 year old son with my pit bulls than any other breed. He's been snapped at by a greyhound and bit in the face by a malinois. A good friend of mine was attacked by a cocker spaniel and required 97 stitches on his face. I have another friend who had to have 56 stitches on the back of her leg from a chihuahua. And I have another friend who's daughter had to have cosmetic surgery on her face due to being attacked by a pug. In the news about a year or so ago a child was playing in his own backyard during a wedding reception and the neighbors golden retriever wandered into the yard and went over to the child. The child reached up to pet the dog and it attacked the child. Also in the news a couple of years ago a pomeranian mix killed a baby.

I never said I 100% trust any animal but I do trust my pit bulls way more than I trust any other breed or mix breed of dog. Also, I have zero tolerance for a biting dog of ANY breed.

[Invictus]

LOL@Hip.. you crack me up man. :D

[Oliverian]

Jesus... I'm glad we got that cleared up. I was thinking, he freehandles hots from his backyard and none of you care??!? Invictus, you're too funny.

Boaboy, we aren't usually this mean. (Well, sometimes) Most of us just don't want to see other reptile keepers dead, and more reptile bans put in place. I hope you give your head a shake after this and stop trying so hard to get yourself killed.
-TammyR

[tHeGiNo]

LOL...very true. You cannot get some types of insurance if you own a retriever (they make up the top reported human attacks in N. America). I also agree with the pitties agression towards other dogs, they weren't bred to be man-eaters, they were selectively bred for centuries to be loyal to their human companion, while highly aggressive towards other dogs. As with any animal, it becomes what you help mould it in to. I've yet to meet a pit that showed any aggression towards humans.

Why though? Because there are loads and loads more golden retrievers then pitbulls in North America. Also, people trust golden retrievers so they often to not hesitate to pet, etc. With the 'reputation' of pitbulls, I don't think there are many people out there willing to throw their hand in front of a pit and call him/her a good boy/girl. Thats why there are more golden retriever reports, not necessarily because they are more vicious or whatnot. By the way, I do not believe any dog is vicious really. It is generally the owners fault. Off topic, but aw well.

[djc3674]

First...I'm a female thus not your bro

ooops my bad. I didnt read your name before I responded.

Your points are valid, any breed of dog can bite someone. As I said before, the damage from a pitbull bite will far exceed that of a pug or even golden retriever. Those dogs possess a brut strength that can't be compared to most breeds. My friends pit that he had for years was very friendly to adults. He wasn't raised around kids. I stopped by my friends house with my son (I stayed outside). This dog saw my son through the window and went nuts. He totally wanted to rip him apart. The teeth were showing and he was growling vicsiously. I never seen him act like that before. Can you imagine if your friends daughter was bit in the face by a pitbull instead of a pug??? ***shivers*** It would of been alot worse than plastic surgery.

I have zero tolerance for a biting dog of ANY breed.

Yes, I agree if its a dog that bites for no reason and is very sketchy. Now on the other hand, my son was playing with our pug one day and he was way to rough, he was laying on top of him and the dog yelped and nipped his hand....so who's fault is it??? The way you tell these stories, you portray these dogs as viscious animals that attacked (which in some cases that may be true) but sometimes its not the dogs fault.

[tHeGiNo]

I have to point out something here...the smart owner will socialize their dog and make sure as many people as possible do pet their dog! If a dog becomes a man-biter it needs to be put down ASAP. Period. I get so sick of people saying that pit bulls are dangerous animals when they are not. I would rather have my 4 year old son around pit bulls than golden retrievers or any other breed of dog.

I'm sorry, but as a canine-lover, I must point out your crude ignorance here. Who are you to determine what should and what should not be killed? In 90% of the cases, it is the owners fault for the outcome of the dog. So why should the dog pay for the owners mistake? How about we put the owner down, and bring the dog to a psychiatrist? It really pisses me off when people have this attitude. Really.

[ChokeOnSmoke]

"I have another friend who had to have 56 stitches on the back of her leg from a chihuahua."

Must have been one crazy chihuahua.

[Oliverian]

Lol, yea. That's pretty brutal for a chihuahua. You'd think they could just take the dog off the leg and put him somewhere else. Was it her dog?
-TammyR

[Linds]

Originally posted by MajickSprings
I have zero tolerance for a biting dog of ANY breed.

I think understanding needs to be given to many animals, moreso than it is. I have one dog (long-haired JRT) that has bitten everyone in our family at least once, not because he is mean, but he spent the first 8 months of his life being beaten by both women and men, and having to fight for his food being a small dog amongst a large group of much more sizable animals (9). He is scared of a lot, especially once night falls. He doesn't like loud noises/voices, hoods, hats, anything on your head, even if its your own hand. He used to pretend to eat his food when he was younger, and now will gorge himself if given the chance. He is by far the most messed up dog, but this is because of bad breeding and a bad start in life, not his fault and I don't hold it against him. Now we do not allow him to play with children and other situations that could be risky, but we aren't about to kill him or disown him for it either.

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
With the 'reputation' of pitbulls, I don't think there are many people out there willing to throw their hand in front of a pit and call him/her a good boy/girl. Thats why there are more golden retriever reports, not necessarily because they are more vicious or whatnot.

Hehehe I don't know about that. All the pitties I've been around have always been treated by everyone like a big suck. True their are many more golden's, but there are also just as many other popular dogs out there. The majority of bites I'm sure are with children, not adults, in all species of dog attacks. I don't blame them either, kids are clumsy and grabby, and often inflict pain on animals in play or curiousity.

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
I do not believe any dog is vicious really. It is generally the owners fault.

Not vicious, but definitely some have more of a propensity to attack, such as Shepherds. Many of the dogs that are highly trainable are "dog smart", they do not think well on their own and excercise their own logic. Three grandparents, one great grandparent, my dad, and my uncle, have all been attacked by Shepherds on different occassions (never the same dog). They are highly protective of their owners and are often incapable of distinguishing true danger.

[MajickSprings]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
I'm sorry, but as a canine-lover, I must point out your crude ignorance here. Who are you to determine what should and what should not be killed? In 90% of the cases, it is the owners fault for the outcome of the dog. So why should the dog pay for the owners mistake? How about we put the owner down, and bring the dog to a psychiatrist? It really pisses me off when people have this attitude. Really.

I am also a canine-lover and it's because I love my breed so much that I feel the way I do. I am not the only APBT owner who feels that way. Because Breed Specific Legislation is running so rampant through the world and banning the APBT from a LOT of places it is the responsibility of the APBT owner to make sure that man-biters are PTS. Ask any responsible APBT owner and they WILL tell you the same thing. I used to think the way you do....why blame the dog and not the owner? However because I would like to be able to continue having APBT's in my life for my lifetime it was important for me to change the way I look at man-biters.

[MajickSprings]

Originally posted by Oliverian
Lol, yea. That's pretty brutal for a chihuahua. You'd think they could just take the dog off the leg and put him somewhere else. Was it her dog?
-TammyR

They did try just taking the dog off the leg but the person trying to remove the dog from her leg got his hands bit up. They finally wrapped a towel around the dog to get it to let go but the damage was already done. It was not her dog. The dog belonged to her auntie. The dog had bitten other people before but nothing to that extent...all unprovoked. The dog was not socialized at all as she would lock the dog up in her room most of the time when people came to visit. The few times she didn't the dog attacked people :( Needless to say the dog finally got put down after this incident.

[BoaBoi]

Originally posted by Auskan
What happened to the concept of getting the cage all set up, temps worked out for cool/warm ends of the cage etc prior to even bringing the snake home?

The 422D Cage I ordered from http://www.theboaphile.com is HUGE, holds temps very very well. Good cerculation and perfect humidity at 67% which I try to raise to 80% or more during shed. Once again this cage is HUGE lol, but I love it. The boa looks sooooooo small in it, but it will hold him for life. Cost me $479.00 with the added features but Jeff Ronne also included an expandable end double heating and an extra light due to the fac that he had a cage premade basically like the one I ordered, GOOD deal for me. That was like $200 in free features. I want to get some reptibark for the bedding but for right now I'm using a towel, reptibark holds humidity awsome also.

James~