The morals , ethics and legalities of venomoids

[Mustangrde1]

This subject always raises its ugly head. So here is my thoughts and opinions on it. As a person who once had and worked with venomoids I am can see both sides of the story. Fortunately with a lot of research and advise I relised how wrong they are and how horrible the alterations are to them in physical characteristics and fatalities that would not occur if it were not for people seeking pure profit for these animals. I will never again own one as I believe it to be an abomination and there are far better ways to display venomous reptiles for education as I have pointed out below.

Here is anyones chance to state their points on the subject. Try to keep emmotion out of.

Below is a copy from another thread I wrote on.duh

We all see and hear the stories from other countries where animals are slaughtered for their internal organs or skins. These animals in some cases are slaughter for the mythological belief that their organs are an aphrodisiac or medical treatment for any number of diseases. Medical Science has proven time after time this to be false yet it still occurs. When we here of this it is upsetting and disheartening for us.
_
It is very difficult for some of these countries to enforce laws regarding these practices yet they try to with the little resources available. There should be however no excuse in large countries with better resources to enforce cruelty laws and prosecute person in violation of laws regarding cruelty or neglect or practicing surgery without a license on animals which can and does cause loss of life and undo suffering.
_
In The United States alone there are 17 states that have enacted "PET LEMON LAWS" to protect buyers from receiving animals in poor shape or health.

Arizona - Title 44, Chapter 11, Article 17 of the Arizona Revised Statutes "Pet Dealers" section. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 15 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 60 days.

Arkansas - Section 4-97-105 of the Arkansas Code. Applies to dogs and cats only. Health problems are covered for 10 days.

California - HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE, SECTION 122045-122222. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 15 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year. This lemon law is for dogs and cats only.

Connecticut - Section 22-344b of the CT Code. Dogs and cats are covered for health problems for 15 days. Reimbursements for veterinary bills cannot exceed two hundred dollars.

Delaware - Section 4005 of the DE Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 20 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 2 years. The animal can be either returned for a full refund of the purchase price, exchanged, or retained. Reimbursement for reasonable veterinary fees cannot exceed the original purchase price of the animal. Parasites are covered if they make the animal clinically ill.

Florida - Florida State Statute 828. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Maine - Title 7, Part 9, Chapter 745: SALE OF DOGS AND CATS. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 10 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Massachusetts - 330 CMR 12.05. Health problems in dogs and cats are covered for 14 days. Requires a refund or a replacement animal -- no veterinary bill reimbursement.

Minnesota - Section 325F.791 of the MN Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 10 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year. This lemon law is for dogs and cats only.

New Hampshire - Section 437.13 of the NH Code. Refunds or substitutions for up to 14 days; does not cover vet bills. Includes dogs, cats, and ferrets.

New Jersey - NJ Statute 56:8-93. Contagious or infectious diseases are covered for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered up to 6 months. The consumer has the right to return the dog or cat and receive a full refund or replacement plus reimbursement of veterinary fees; or retain the dog or cat and receive reimbursement of veterinary fees plus the cost of future veterinary fees.

New York - Article 35-D Section 753 of the General Business Law. Health conditions in dogs and cats are covered for 14 days.

Nevada - Section 574.490 of the Nevada Code. Covers health problems for up to 10 days. Provides refund of purchase price, replacement of equal value, or reimbursement of vet bills, in an amount not to exceed the purchase price of the pet.

Pennsylvania - Contagious or Infectious Diseases are covered: 10 days; Congenital or Hereditary Defects: 30 days

South Carolina - Section 47-13-160 of the SC Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 6 months. Pet store liability for veterinary fees must not exceed fifty percent of the purchase price, including sales tax, of the animal.

Vermont - 20V.S.A. sec. 4302. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 7 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Virginia - 3.1-796.80. Health problems are covered for 10 days. Must return the pet to receive refund or exchange.

Though many of these States specifically cover dogs and cats the same laws can be argued for other pets as well. All 50 States and The Federal Government have Laws again pertaining to Cruelty and neglect of animals and conditions for Surgery and Captive living requirements.

http://www.animal-law.org/statutes/index.html_Great State by state brief

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/legislat/awicregs.htm_ Federal laws

This being said it shows that we as a civilized society appall such violations to animals. So when I here the word Venomoid which is a SURGICALLY altered animal for no other reason then profit under the assumption it will be safe to handle it appalls me. The persons performing this alteration are for the most part NOT licensed and therefore violating laws regarding who/whom may perform surgeries. Without proper facilities and narcotics this can and does cause undo fatalities and stress upon animals and is a crime under numerous state laws. Again these people if not licensed are also using narcotics that without the licensing are illegal to own posses and administer.

_I have said that there are only two reasons that I could ever condone these animals and that is in education and research use. However I place it under the stipulations that. "A" The person doing such research or education be licensed for these practices and that they must do a required number of educational demonstrations per year so as to keep persons from acquiring said permit/license just to own a venomoid. " B " That the surgery be performed by a Licensed Veterinary doctor only and only after proof and permits furnished to the Veterinary clinic have been issued by the party wishing to have this surgery performed. I even had a venomoid at one time and was going to use it for educational lectures but with time in my life being what it is I could not. I therefore allowed the animal to be sent on to someone that could. After much research from that time I have learned just how horrible this procedure is and could never again own one as I feel it supports the slaughter of numerous animals for no reason. Proper handling of the real animals or display behind locked cages and allowing an audience to view them via large screen TV during a lecture and then close inspection from in front of glass is far safer and better for the animals.

When we as a society see person doing things we feel are Morally and Ethically and Legally wrong we have the right and responsibility to try and change laws or have laws enforced. Sitting back with no opinion or stance on a subject that is known to cause fatalities and stress for no reason other then profit makes those who stand by and do nothing just as guilty as those who are causing the deaths and stress.

The arguments the people performing these alterations range from they are perfect for training for venomous to they are safer pets. This in itself shows they are purely looking for the all mighty dollar and sell. There is no substitute for proper training with the real animals under supervised instruction from seasoned keepers with knowledge of the animals a person wishes to work with or own in the future.

With mortality rates as high as 90% in some verified cases this shows just how deadly these alteration for profit are to the animals the procedure is performed on. This is part of the reason behind laws to allow for only "trained licensed veterinary doctors to perform a surgery." The Average person possibly could perform this surgery but would have a high mortality rate. The care needed for Pre-op, surgery and post operative care is best left to professionals not back yard butchers. As well as guidelines of established medical laws regarding the surgical standards.

Where we as Keepers fit in is when we are aware of people committing such acts it is our Moral and Ethical along with Legal responsibility to inform the local authorities of their actions and DEMAND action be taken against these people.

Demanding action is a must sitting back passively will do nothing but condone these peoples actions.

Morally and Ethically it is our Duty to inform other Members of the Herp community to these people and their actions. Boycotts against their business and business that do business with these people can in the end stop the needless deaths of animals and their pain and suffering.

We are not 3rd world countries and we do have laws and morals as I provided above. Now it is up to you and I to make certain that when these people who are performing the alterations without the proper legal training as prescribed by law are held accountable



OK that was that. Now some in the hot community will say that taking actions such as this will limit or possibly destroy our ability to own and keep venomous. I look at it a different way.

It shows to the lawmakers WE as a community are willing to police are selves and to not allow practices in our community that are illegal or dangerous. We go to the measure to report people mutilating animals and selling animals they tote to be safe for handling when in fact they can become again venomous if the operation was not performed properly. Also the babies of venomoids are definitely HOT and dangerous. When we as a community are willing to stand up and be counted for what is morally, ethically and legally correct we do not detract from our rights to keep animals. We actually strengthen our ability to do so by showing the potential powers that be our responsibilities and maturity and safety ethics.

It is very hard for people to argue evil against people who have proven we will not allow certain actions in our community.

[Crotalus75]

That about sums it up. Great post! Those of us that value these animals and our right to keep them need to make a stand against these damaging practices. I look at venomoid surgery as being in a similair category with rattlesnake roundups and other anti-education/anti-conservation actions. I think that the key word here is EXPLOITATION.

[Mustangrde1]

Conservation and Education are two of the most important tools any persons dealing in any wildlife have. We need look no further to how effective this can be than to simply look at The programs Hunting and Fishing organizations have implemented, and the great success they have had at restoring animal population if not for their efforts would not be here anymore. Look at the Turkeys or Deer. Those are two of the greatest success stories.


We as well can teach these two great principles in our own hobby and with captive breeding programs in our country severally limit the need for importation. With that accomplished here Other countries can look at perhaps farming the animals instead of destroying wild populations. Look no further then Alligator and Crocodile farms already in use.

[Crotalus75]

Exactly. Alligator and crocodile farms are a perfect example of sustainable use of reptiles and these models can be modified and used for many reptile species. Programs like these also have the potential to provide much needed jobs for indigenous people. Look at some of the programs that Rom Whitaker has started to promote reptile conservation and give local peoples jobs and an opportunity to appreciate these animals as an alternative to making money by exploiting them.

[JoeBradley]

Using alligator and croc farms seems a bit contradicting. Those animals are raised for the purpose of being made into wallets, belts, boots and lunch. Sure this keeps people from harming the wild populations and some can be released but most of these animals are still raised to be killed. If we started raising hots for the sole purpose of making them venomoids would they then be acceptable? If the person performing the surgery has a license and is doing it legally and humanely (not burning glands out in the garage) I see no problem with it. We have animal shows with dogs, cats, skunks and other animals that have been altered to either make them easier to manage and care for or to make more valuable. We clip boxers tails and ears, remove claws from cats, and descent various skunks and ferrets. Not to mention where neutering and spaying come into play. Again I am not condoning "BACK YARD CHOP SHOPS" but the human race genetically alters all sorts of animals including ourselves.

Also, I do not see where venomoids and conservation tie together. Unless someone is pulling mass numbers out of the wild to be operated on these two topics do not go together.
Joe

[C.m.pyrrhus]

This in itself is a big debate. It is hard to associate the nueter/spay of a pet dog (or cat) to venomoids, as this actually benifits to the health of the animal. Female dogs commonly get pyometra due to not being spayed, male dogs tend to be more aggresive and also have a higher risk of some cancers. Then, to add to that, these animals are domesticated. Being clipped and altered is also part of the worlds need to have beauty in their animals, which I think is a bit rediculous. Most breeds are also proof of what altering and bad genes does to a species.

Skunks being de-scented by all means is somewhat of a "chop-job", but also no big ill effects are known, nor does 90% of the animal die due to complications. Also, these procedures are done legally by qualified folk. These animals are being altered, but do the applications even closely resemble removing needed organs much like venomoids?

To me there is a line between altering domesticated animals, and then ultterly destroying a natural species just for sale. Then there is the manner in which the procedures are done, why they are done and what is being done to what. Nuetering/Spaying a dog is benificial. Clipping the ears and docking tails is pointless and cruel IMO. <b>Removing venom glands from venomous snakes is pointless. How can one argue that it is nessecary by any means, even if all the procedures were to be done legally with no ill effects? What benifits the animal by removing the glands, absolutely nothing. If anything, it desroys what measure of life it would of had otherwise.</b> The only reasons I can see why it is done is to make some money, and for those that do not want to take the time to research and respect the animal able tobe cool and safe all in one.

It would be nice to see venomoids get some respect from herpetoculturists. The folks that favor the procedure often come about as just plain redneck-uneducated-egotistical-monitarily focussed morons with no desire to understand the animal, but rather profit from them and take the roll as the big kid on the block. Look at me, I can handle this gaboon viper....
Who the hell cares? Seems to me you have no care or repsectable bone in your body. Why can you not take the time it takes to understand and respect the venomous creature for what it is? Are you afraid of being hurt, then dont get into it, simple as that.

[Crotalus75]

We are talking about the difference between apples and oranges between venomoid surgeries and sustainable use of wildlife that is raised on farms or in captive breeding programs. By that same token we could say that raising cattle for beef, milk and leather are morally wrong. Any sane individual knows that these practices are essential for human nutrition and general living. It is the order of the natural world. More people in the world get their daily protein from reptiles than from beef.

Venomoid surgeries on the other hand are a cruel frivolity. We are talking about removing important organs from these animals by the process of dangerously invasive "surgery" often without the use of anesthetic or proper sterilization. The sole motivation for doing these procedures is quick profit at the expense of the health and safety of these potential "pets". Most of these animals are "cheap" wild caught specimens that are bought in bulk for the sole purpose of venomoid surgery. Most veterinarians won't even consider performing these procedures. These animals hold special appeal to the inexperienced keeper that knows nothing of care and handling requirements.

Spaying and neutering dogs and cats has health and population control benefits. This practice cuts down on the risk of reproductive and other related cancers that develop in dogs and cats. Population control is essential with these animals as anyone who has been to a third world country without it can attest to. these procedures are always done by licensed veterinarians which is a stark contrast to venomoid surgery which is NOT and probably never will be properly regulated until it is outlawed.

Venomoid "surgery" has nothing to do with genetic alteration. It is an unnecessary and barbaric cut and hack process.

[Crotalus75]

Can anyone give me any reasons why venomoid surgery is a GOOD thing? I am interested to hear some of this sound reasoning.

[Crotalus75]

CONSERVATION

1) The act or process of conserving.

2) Preservation or restoration from loss, damage, or neglect

3) an occurrence of improvement by virtue of preventing loss or injury or other change

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I am simply going to add my feelings on this topic as I see fit.

In my opinion, I see no reason first off for the removal of venom glands in venomous snakes. To me, I see it as a way to fashionably produce an animal for sale to those that do not respect the animal, do not have any understanding or experience or to those that want something "safe", but still come off as dangerous to others. What self-respecting herpetoculturist would ever say that these fashionably altered creatures are benificial in any way is beyond me. Even for teaching and demonstrations it seems to be quite pointless.

I work as a Vet Tech for a Veterinarian. I had a discussion with one of my coworkers about venomoids for teaching dogs to stray from venomous snakes, particularly rattlesnakes. I could not see how a dog could tell the difference from one snake from another, other than the noise a rattle produces. To me, instinct 'should' carry over and a rattlesnake be avoided by any animal, but then again ***** happens. Personally, if a dog is bit, it it 100% at fault of the owner. Not at all times will a dog (or other animal) react as it should, but oh well, thats the way of nature. Sometimes other unplanned scenarios persist, but again nature wins over our own rules (or at least should). Other options are avaiable for teaching dog owners about safety and precautions when it comes to venomous and poisonous creatures. Here in AZ we have more problems with Sonoran Desert Toads (bufo alvarius) than we do rattlesnake species for both humans and pets. Same with our arachnid species. Simply put, there are better options to be looked at and to be passed along over the quick fix.

All in all, there is no rhyme or reason that these procedures should be accepted. Lets not accociate them with the altering of another animal, for this is pointless and takes away from the focus of this debate. Venomoids carrry no benificial purpose for that of man, nor of the creatures involved. Those that are interested in venomous creatures and sway towards venomoids should evaluate there reasoning and desision before they proceed in their interests. I do not see how one could learn about a creature when it had been altered in this fashion. This instills a loss of respect, understanding and experience needed to carry out this interest.

<b>Take away all the hype on both sides, and look at what is left. You have a creature that for one, is at a loss of a natural lifestyle. It is not what it should be. Many species (IMHO) need these devices for survival even in captivity. Secondly, you are left with persons entering this hobby with a lack of experience and disrespect to the hobby, which only impacts in a negative way. Folks boast of their newly aquired animal as if they have emboddied a deity. They are not learned, yet strayed from the consequences of what it takes to be educated. Even if they are a 'good person', they are painting the picture that herpetoculture is for folks without the desire for education. It allows for the public to be aware of more unreasonable attraction at our interests, and makes it harder to push for education in herps. It takes away respect from native species that are hard as is to keep in the public eye as a good part of the environment. In ending, I see no reason fit for any acceptance in this topic.</b>

[JoeBradley]

Can anyone give me any reasons why venomoid surgery is a GOOD thing?


If done correctly and legally it could help zoos and educational programs by taking out the risk of a lethal bite during routine maintanance and classes. Enabling us to take these reptiles into classes where true hots would not be allowed. It would give the people in those classes a chance to see and identify venomous snakes with more than just a picture.

An escaped venomoid poses no threat to the community. (there are people out there who allow their hots to escape and yes we consider them irresponsible but it happens)

Joe

[JoeBradley]

Take away all the hype on both sides, and look at what is left. You have a creature that for one, is at a loss of a natural lifestyle. It is not what it should be.

As soon as you put a snake in a cage you have taken away it's natural lifestyle. Snakes were not meant to be caged any more than a bear or tiger. The only reason we get very little hype from places such as PETA is because snakes are not cute and cuddly.

Is there a GOOD reason for keeping a snake at all besides our own enjoyment? I know educating the public is going to be the first response to this question so I will answer it now. What percentage of the herp community use their reptiles for classes and education? Less than 50%?

Joe

[Crotalus75]

I can't think of any reputable zoo that keeps or would keep venomoids for any reason. IMO taking a venomoid into a classroom where venomous are not allowed is a risky action. No one knows with 100% certainty if these animals are capable of regenerating parts of their venom delivery apparatus. Why does anyone need more than a picture or video of a venomous snake to make and accurate identification? I use photos all the time when I am trying to memorize genera and species. To a child in the classroom a ball python is just as neat as a venomoid gaboon viper (probably more so because they could be allowed to hold it. Now that has the potential to change a childs life!).

[C.m.pyrrhus]

If done correctly and legally it could help zoos and educational programs by taking out the risk of a lethal bite during routine maintanance and classes. Enabling us to take these reptiles into classes where true hots would not be allowed. It would give the people in those classes a chance to see and identify venomous snakes with more than just a picture.


There is as well risks with any large species, such as bears, Tigers, Reticualted pythons, etc..etc....and nature of the beast. The folks that run and are envolved with venomous snakes in zoos and educational facilities, for the most part are experienced and educated in handling of the species. I think they have more risk cleaning a Tiger or Alligator enclosure over getting a bite from a venomous creature. I am sure they know this as well. It also employs a risk of lifestyles to the species, which zoos and the like discourage from their facilties. Folks that employ any educational program also know the risks involved themselves, and I am sure would deture from using altered animals to educate the public. If a species is not alowed as venomous, niether would a venomoid of the same species, as it is still a species that has been lawfully kept from such institutions. Even though it posses no threat, by law it still merits itself as a venomous creature all the same.

[Crotalus75]

In the hands of a caring keeper the snake will never be without food, have a perfect temperature gradient, not have to worry about any predators, have access to medical care and probably have the chance to reproduce with a number of its conspecifics. In reality these little pea brains are quite content to be fat and well taken care of. Captivity is the only place that one is likely to see some of these species in the future. Habitat loss WILL claim many of the species we love in their natural habitat.

I keep them because I love them. I keep them because working with these organisms and studying their biology and behavior is my passion, profession of choice and the reason that I am grinding my way through higher education.


Often when people debate in favor of venomoid surgery eventually the only arguments they are left to resort to sound as though they are condeming the keeping of reptiles in its entirety. I have run into this phenomina during numerous debates on the subject.

[Mustangrde1]

As I pointed out with the use of TV for demonstrating venomous snakes in the wild for education there is no need to ever have one out or put it through the surgery. If the person doing the lecture wishes to bring in a specimen for viewing do so in a cage that is escape proof and also locking. This gives the audience the ability to view these creatures in the flesh.

As for them being good for training that's the biggest load of horse pucky ever. No Matter how much you treat it like a hot in the back of your mind you know it is not and will make mistakes or do something stupid. This takes away from the learning ability not aid to it.

With so many forums now online for people to post to and ask aid from there should be no reason for a person not to be able to find an experienced keeper to learn from and train under.

Years ago we had to learn by ourselves and now we can safely train the new generations. There is no need for venomoids. I cannot see one argument to show where it is better for them to be without their venom glands. Yet I can find plenty of reason to not allow this to happen chiefly the loss of life from botched jobs by unqualified persons in their garages.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

As soon as you put a snake in a cage you have taken away it's natural lifestyle. Snakes were not meant to be caged any more than a bear or tiger. Is there a GOOD reason for keeping a snake at all besides our own enjoyment?

Very good and valid point. It is very true that once a snake is placed in captivity, you have taken it's natural lifestyle away. I am sure there are a million reasons why folks keep any given species of animal as pets, part of a collection...what have ya.....

I can only speak for myself. All of the venomous creatures I have are basically rescues (along with most of the native species I keep). These are animals removed from areas where they are not allowed to be released, or those that would have otherwise been killed off. I also keep for the simple pleasure of keeping an animal that I find facinating. I also believe in propagation of species that are at this point in a bit of danger in their native and natural surroundings.

All in all I do by best to acclimate the needs of any given species. There is not much anyone can do in their homes to create a natural environment or habitat. Although, snakes in general are adaptation specialists. I do not feel that any snake I have is a bit worried that it is kept in captivity. They feed well, breed and act naturally as best they can. I, one the other hand, do not manipulte any animal beyond keeping them in captivity. The way I treat my animals is by any means as close to nature as they could get otherwise. I know what it means to have an animal out of its natural habitat, but I also know what it means to chop away at it to promote something other than what was meant in herpetoculture as a respectable hobby and science.

[Campbellvenomou]

An escaped venomoid poses no threat to the community. (there are people out there who allow their hots to escape and yes we consider them irresponsible but it happens)

Joe


Problem with that statement.....adendectomy's do not render the snakes sterile, escaped venomoids could reproduce, and as we all know Lamarkian genetics never cut the mustard......
Also using venomoids for training is at best iffy. Problem is that "if" done by a proffesional and the snake is "harmless" (like gaboon fangs are not going to hurt or cause serious infection risks even sans venom) the Trainee does not treat the snake with the same defference he/she would if it was hot, leading to bad habits and eventual bites...
just my two cents

[Crotalus75]

"An escaped venomoid poses no threat to the community"


But what about the bad PR and legislation against keeping hots as a result of escaped venomoids? The media doesn't hear "harmless escaped venomoid black mamba" they only hear ESCAPED BLACK MAMBA - MOST FEARED SNAKE ON THE PLANET! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN! AAAHH!!!!

[Mustangrde1]

I guess I am lucky as my neibors son is a Warden with Florida game and fish. So atleast I have knowledgeable neibors, heck even come get me for snakes catches. But He knows the laws and my inspecting officer so he is aware the laws regaurding caging and room requirements here and it doesnt bother him i keep them.

In my families case it wouldnt be hide your children it would be Arm your kids with tongs and hooks were going collecting tonight kids. And pray we beat Hunter and Goushaw to the capture lol. Hunter is fast with those flip flops.

[JoeBradley]

All points well taken. I just do not have the same "hatred" for venomoids as some people have. However, I agree 100% that this surgery, if done, should be by a licensed vet and done humanely (which is possible). If both of those criteria are met I have no problem with it. As for reasons to have the surgery done on a snake, I see that as a individual matter. Same as our decision to keep these animals to begin with.

Often when people debate in favor of venomoid surgery eventually the only arguments they are left to resort to sound as though they are condeming the keeping of reptiles in its entirety. I have run into this phenomina during numerous debates on the subject.

Just for the record, I am by no means against the keeping of reptiles. I have a large collection from venomous snakes to tortoises and lizards.

I am outta here.
Joe

[Campbellvenomou]

"hatred for venomoids"
A good choice of words that misrepresents comdemnation for this practice. What I hate are the butchers. What I hate are the numbers of snakes killed because of the "proffit" margin from unscrupulous individuals. What I hate is the lack of long term scientifically qualified data as to the long-term effects to the snakes themselves. What I hate is the fact that adendectomied snakes are treated as harmless. What I hate is the fact that as herpers we spend more time fighting amongst ourselves than in union against an ignorant public opinion that our fueding only adds fodder to the fires of.
As keepers our reasons definately are diverse, as are the species kept. My personal feelings are if you want a species, then want it for what it is, in it's entire form, not diluted. Be able to meet the bare minimum of safety and financial responsibility, and then do more! Thankfully I live in the US where I have the liberty to have the choice of keeping so many taxa, talk to keepers abroad gentleman...they are blown away by how little it takes to legally pursue our passion..
Just my two cents(ok, fifty cents)