Attitude towards "commoners"

[skinheaddave]

I was wondering what experiences people had with attitudes towards keepers of "common" herps? I have found myself on both ends of some pretty short-sighted behaviour.

When I first mention my savannah monitor, I find that experienced herpers tend to assume that I am keeping it incorrectly. I realize that this is statistically probable, but I still find that I have to go into my enclosure size, substrate choice, temperature gradient, diet etc. Even then, people usualy aren't convinced until they come and see my setup and monitor.

On the flip-side, I find that I am guilty of the same assumptions with people who keep green iguanas. I also find that when someone mentions corn snakes or leopard geckos (or even beardies these days) I automatically think "novice" in my head -- until I find out that they are knowledgable etc.

Anyhow, it is something I have been thinking about recently and trying to fight against in my own mind.

Cheers,
Dave

[Katt]

I too have encountered a snobbish attitude towards the "cheapie" snakes. I find myself slightly insulted when people care to inform me, that the would not waste their time on $20 snakes. I can understand if you are a breeder and rely on "high end" herps to keep yourself afloat, but for average keepers that's not an excuse.


I keep a lot of corns, but I'm not a barely hatched herper. They're just one of the species I really really enjoy having. I have other more "experienced required herps", but they're all snakes, and I love them all!

Take a look at the large corn breeders in the states. They work almost exclusively with corns, but no one would say, they are novices.

Just like all things, people like to pat themselves on the back and think they are "elite" b/c they keep rare indo/australian pythons, or bamboo ratsnakes or mangove snakes or glow in the dark snakes.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I agree. This hobby is strongly becomming an interest I care not to have much longer because of many of the people involved in the hobby. It no longer seems to be about the animals for the animals themselves. It seems, where I stand that its all about the dollars involved in the animals..
Xain

[reverendsterlin]

I have it on both ends, I keep some animals (like Bitis) that some folks think is crazy, and others (my corns) that some folks think puts me into the novice class lol, starting a discussion on breeding and genetics ends those silly assumptions. I keep for myself so the opinions of others means diddly to me, the little contact I have with other herpers is usually me helping them so I ignore the aholes in the hobby.

[Siretsap]

Some people got caught up in the popularity of reptiles. I mean just check the evolution.
When the iguana became popular, everyone had to have one. Same thing with cornsnakes.
Now it's surinames and chondro pythons...
Some people will only look at it as the popularity of the moment and try to get a buck out of it.
I too love the cornsnakes I have and leopard geckos, they aren't worth much money wise, but damn they are so fun to keep.
I didn't start keeping reptiles for money, and I never will. I spend well over 300$ of food for my reptiles a month and the minute I will think they cost more than they give me, I will not keep them anymore.

[arachnomania]

Not about herps but I don't see this problem in the invertebrate hobby. I think that even the most experienced keeper has at least one Chilean rose (Grammostola rosea) in his collection. Just taught I'd mention that.
On the other hand my favorite snake is the red tail boa and own a pair. Personnaly........they could be worth $20 or even $2000 each, they'd still be my favorite. I think there is also a hint of personnal taste in what you keep.

[Lisa]

I find it depends on the number of animals a person has. If they have 1 corn or boa I'm more likely to think they're a novice off the bat.

[Invictus]

For the time being, my most expensive/exotic snake is my blood python.. but frankly I don't care what people think about that. Of course I do plan to get into the more rare and expensive snakes, but no matter what, I'm still going to enjoy my 6 common boas, my 8 corn snakes, etc., and in fact, I will NOT be stopping there. I have a deposit down on another common boa, and I'll be keeping these things as pets until the day I die, simply because I adore them.

[BoidKeeper]

Keep what you love and love what you keep.
Cheers,
Trevor

[skinheaddave]

Originally posted by arachnomania
Not about herps but I don't see this problem in the invertebrate hobby

You are correct, but I have noticed another type of snobbery, if you will, in the invert world. The thing with inverts is that the prices never get THAT high and space and care requirements are rarely an issue. The result is that you end up with something of a "he with the most inverts wins" mentality among some. I have a fair number, so I am not a victim of this, but John (Kugellager on AP) had very few scorpions up until this point. Still knew twice that of almost any other board member, but others (no names) thought that they were the cat's meow because they had bought more inverts over the years.

Cheers,
Dave

[BoidKeeper]

Don't ya just hate it when one group of people thinks they are better than another group. How ironic that you should raise this kinda of complaint given the nature or your log in name and avtar pic.
Trevor

[marisa]

I have noticed this problem myself as well to some degree.

My main love is kingsnakes. Now, they might be cheap, etc. But you must keep what you love the most. But often people don't even want to see or talk about my kings because they are just kings. Frankly, if I have my choice between a foreign GTP, or a native kingsnake who can kill a rattler, I am picking king! LOL. But because the "market" has put a cheap price on them and because they are so available, they are less desireable.

If kingsnakes laid only 2-4 eggs, suddenly, all use king/corn keepers would be on the other side. I believe most people truely do love what they keep but I feel what people want and love is HIGHLY dictated by others in the hobby. If something is desireable to big breeders, suddenly its desirable to everyone else in some cases.

When judging someones experience level I take lots into account. Some say numbers don't matter but I feel they most certainly do, numbers/and or years keeping. Someone with one corn just can't possibly have as large a range to draw info off of as someone who keeps 50. Just the way it is. BUT this has to go hand in hand with years of keeping and other types of experience. Someone may own 50 corns for a year, and another person owns 4 for ten years, I am talking to both but probably listening to the 4 for ten years.

Sucess over the long term, general knowledge and proper researching ,etc is what makes me decide if someone is novice or not.

Marisa

[Stockwell]

Being experienced doesn't have to mean you work only with leucistic Boelens and albino blackheads.

I'm one of less than 6 herpers globally that have captively produced schneiders skinks. I also still breed Ocellated skinks, and in the past few years, have bred flying geckos, crocodile geckos and Bibron geckos, simply because I wanted to.
These animals have a near zero wholesale value.
This year I hope to produce my first House snakes, because as odd as it sounds, mine failed to produce in 03.
Are you laughing yet?
2004 will mark my 25th year of breeding reptiles.(with no years off)
You don't have to get caught up in ONLY the "high end" to enjoy herpetology, and mark your tenure.
The thrill should come from seeing stuff hatch, and finding new babies in a cage. For me that's what it's all about. The price should have no real bearing on the sure thrill one can get from captive breeding.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Snobbery...pffffft. There is a young lady that works near me, and runs part of the reptile section of her employer. I went in for feeder fish for my garters (and crickets for a toad), and she tried to give me a run down on how to feed my snakes...heh. "I know plenty about snakes" she says, "I can help you out, I own 3 snakes and am very experienced in keeping them. I started out 2 years ago...." She went on to add how she only buys "common" herps with good credentials and that are a higher cost (assuming they would be better animals).

So..I asked her if she had happen to know how much the anoles are..."Not sure, are you interested. You know your snakes wont eat them?" I says "Sure, I need to scent pinkies for a few neonate Crotes I have at home and it has been to cold out to catch wild Sceloporus and Urosaurus to use" A blank stare took her face...

She just assumed since I mentioned garters, that I was just keeping some common snakes I found in by backyard and just kept them a glass jar at home, and that she could try to pass her abundant amount of worthless information on to me. So now she and some of her co-workers bug me weekly about how big my boas are, and what I will do when they reach 20 ft. If I use my rattlesnakes for skins and belts...etc etc etc.....

All in all, I get the most flack from the folks that just started out with a few common herps and automatically firgure they are the next MK.... To me, the more experienced folk tend to be a bit wiser on how they address other folks and herpers.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Snobbery...pffffft. There is a young lady that works near me, and runs part of the reptile section of her employer. I went in for feeder fish for my garters (and crickets for a toad), and she tried to give me a run down on how to feed my snakes...heh. "I know plenty about snakes" she says, "I can help you out, I own 3 snakes and am very experienced in keeping them. I started out 2 years ago...." She went on to add how she only buys "common" herps with good credentials and that are a higher cost (assuming they would be better animals).

So..I asked her if she had happen to know how much the anoles are..."Not sure, are you interested. You know your snakes wont eat them?" I says "Sure, I need to scent pinkies for a few neonate Crotes I have at home and it has been to cold out to catch wild Sceloporus and Urosaurus to use" A blank stare took her face...

She just assumed since I mentioned garters, that I was just keeping some common snakes I found in by backyard and just kept them a glass jar at home, and that she could try to pass her abundant amount of worthless information on to me. So now she and some of her co-workers bug me weekly about how big my boas are, and what I will do when they reach 20 ft. If I use my rattlesnakes for skins and belts...etc etc etc.....

All in all, I get the most flack from the folks that just started out with a few common herps and automatically firgure they are the next MK.... To me, the more experienced folk tend to be a bit wiser on how they address other folks and herpers. I keep some common herps along with some not so common, and simply get what I prefer to have. It would be nice to see more folks follow the same route, and not feel as if they are in a popular contest race for the "Best Herper Award."

[skinheaddave]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Don't ya just hate it when one group of people thinks they are better than another group. How ironic that you should raise this kinda of complaint given the nature or your log in name and avtar pic.
Trevor

Don't you hate it when people open their mouths when they are ignorant? Read this (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8592/sh.html) for starters. It isn't exhaustive, but it covers a lot of the basics. Afterwards you can tell me if you still see the irony.

Cheers,
Dave

[Vanan]

Not about herps but I don't see this problem in the invertebrate hobby.

Bang on! Nail on the head! I was just telling Katt last night how different the invert folk are. No uppity snobbish attitude with them. Newbies are treated well and educated not shot down.

Plus, I agree with every word of Roy's. One of those things me and Katt talk about all the time before going to bed. How sad this "hobby" has become. Oh well, at least there are still true herpers out there, by the looks of it. That's all we need to keep it going. :)

[BoidKeeper]

Very interesting. If that's what you believe than I stand corrected and owe you an oppology.
Trevor

[skinheaddave]

Trevor,

It is -- appology accepted. And now, back to your regularily scheduled program .... :)

Cheers,
Dave

[BoidKeeper]

lol
I find myself sometime wondering about the experience level of people who keep things that are on Mirdos cheap list.
I'm also weary of people who don't care where they get their stuff as long as they get want they want.
For me it's not about have a herp it's about having the nicest one I can find/afford of a perticular species. Those people that buy anything from anyone make me nervouse.
As for common animals I would love to have a RES and an Iggy but they are just too much work to keep corectly so I don't bother with them. I certainly don't look down at people who keep either species correctly. Savs as well. I'd love one but they are more work than I'm willing to put into. They may be comon but that doesn't mean they are for beginers.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Dragoon]

"Bang on! Nail on the head! I was just telling Katt last night how different the invert folk are. No uppity snobbish attitude with them. Newbies are treated well and educated not shot down."

This has been my experience as well, and its really opening my eyes... the lack of aggression is taking some getting used too... my introduction to the internet has been via the monitor world... skinheaddave, you will understand what I'm getting at. Major bickering, lying and hostility.

I'm starting to enjoy the computer again, this is a new experience. I thank Tarcan for leading me to the arachnoboards...what a prince he is...
D.

[Dragoon]

BTW, Look at my first avatar, everyone!

Much thanks to the generous Ms. Emily Fisher!!!
Yay!!
D.

[skinheaddave]

Originally posted by Dragoon
skinheaddave, you will understand what I'm getting at. Major bickering, lying and hostility.

I know exaclty what you are talking about. I have run into more nastiness in the online monitor world than anywhere else. If it weren't for the fact that monitors are so amazing, I probably would have been completely turned off them by the attitudes of some people. That being said, I have also run into some truely wonderful people who are willing to share their experiences and listen to yours.

The invert world is definitely a lot better. There is some bickering among some of the top people, but they definitely keep it to themselves. There is, however, seemingly more of a willingness to help out newbies, as it were. Part of that, perhaps, is that there is so little that is actually known about inverts in general. I have seen people join arachnoboards with the standard "got my first scorpion" post and within six months they can easily deal with 95% of the questions that come up. With reptiles, it takes a lot longer to gain that sort of competence, because the bar is so much higher -- or maybe I don't have a clue and am just blabbering on about nonsense. :)

Cheers,
Dave

[Dragoon]

Thank you Dave, its a relief to know learning about my inverts isn't going to be such a struggle.
The monitors throw curveballs at me monthly. They are all the challenge I need in my pet keeping! Good luck with finding a female sav, we desperately need some healthy CB savs here.
D.

[marisa]

I think attitude is also what you make of it.

If I come across someone who thinks they are "the shiz" and has this attitude problem, I normally fire back with absolutly no attitude of my own, or jokes. This usually causes the situation to fuzzle out and you end up talking to someone you might not have before.

I think on one hand its a problem, but on the other hand its like ANY profession....the people who have been in it for a long time have a hard time dealing with people who maybe are new. This may be wrong or right, but I am just saying its not exclusive to herps, its a part of life in general.

Merry Christmas everyone
Marisa

[Neo]

i dont think that you can judge someone's experience by what animals they keep but you can judge how much money they have. for example if someone's keeping leos or corn snakes they're not neccessarily a novie they could have read up everything there is to know about a more challenging animal or even work with them in a zoo or something. They might just not have the money to get one for them selves.

[nolagurl]

Are you guys talking about people online or people that you know in real life?

My local herp club is very laid back and there (seems to be) no competition. Online, however, it's easy for people to sit behind that screen and blow their own trumpet.

[skinheaddave]

nolagurl,

When it comes to poor conclusions, both, really. The difference, I think, is that the conclusions people jump to that are wrong tend to be sorted out a lot quicker in person. I think that people get pegged online and then left there. Basically, I think people tend to form and hold grudges online.

That being said, I think there is often a soap opera going on in real life too, it is just kept under the surface.

Cheers,
Dave