pinkie death

[marylyn101]

what is the best way to kill piinkies. their skin tears so easily so smashing is out of the question and co2 they just don't die!! i had some that lasted 3 HOURS before i killed them myself. i just want a fast way to kill them that is extreme minimal bleeding and pain.

[seann]

Freeze them!

[djc3674]

why bother killing them first? I don't see how they pose a threat if you just feed them live to your animals. I'm not sure what animal your feeding them to, but most likely they will die pretty quickly.

[Zoe]

Freeze them!
Obviously, you've never tried freezing a pink mouse. When I first started breeding I froze one, assuming it would die within a minute. Twenty minutes later, it was still moving! I ended up killing it myself. Oh, and freezing is EXTREMELY painful. Have you ever had your blood crystalize in your veins?

why bother killing them first?
It isn't always a question of being humane. If you don't have mouse pinks all the time, yet need a several every week, you'd need to kill and freeze them so you have them when you need them. Also, some people like to start their babies off on f/t pinks... that way there is no problem switching them later on. Why go through the trouble if you can avoid it from the start?

Anyway marylyn, I've always killed them by hitting on the ground and they almost never break. You don't need to hit them that hard to kill them. Every now and then I break one when I forget how small they are and throw him as hard as I can, but other than that it's pretty easy to get the hang of throwing them with the right force without breaking them. There is no other way that I can think of, except maybe drowning them.

Zoe

[reverendsterlin]

I must be a cruel person, I don't give much thought to humane treatment when 'killing' animals, freeze them, drown them, co2, or feed them live, dead is dead an I'm not going to get my panties in a wad over a mouse.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Zoe
Have you ever had your blood crystalize in your veins?


I would love to see some proof that this actually happens while the pink is still alive. Sounds like BS to me.

[snakehunter]

crush the spinal chord at the base of the skull with pliers

[asphyxia]

If you did not want to feed live Pinkies (I do) then you can place them in a bag (I use the ones newspapers come in) and swing in against the floor hard.

Cheers
Brian

[Auskan]

Originally posted by asphyxia
If you did not want to feed live Pinkies (I do) Brian

I think what Marilyn was saying was that if she doesn't have an immediate need for pinks, she wants a way to freeze them for future use.

[mykee]

put a few in a ziploc bag and whack 'em. They don't explode when done right, and they die damn near immediately.

[seann]

This is a funny debate! anyways you blood doesn't crystalize before you die! so bite me! and if you have alot you are going to end up freezing them anyways no matter what you are killing them they dies there life is over !! and if you freeze them you dont half to deal with wacking the animal till it dies doesn't semm so awful in comparrison

[daver676]

Originally posted by seann
This is a funny debate! anyways you blood doesn't crystalize before you die! so bite me! and if you have alot you are going to end up freezing them anyways no matter what you are killing them they dies there life is over !! and if you freeze them you dont half to deal with wacking the animal till it dies doesn't semm so awful in comparrison

What the hell man, take a pill. Sure they're going to die, but I would try to make their passing as easy and pain free as possible. Sheesh.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by djc3674
why bother killing them first? I don't see how they pose a threat if you just feed them live to your animals. I'm not sure what animal your feeding them to, but most likely they will die pretty quickly.

One word comes to mind when feeding live "parasites".

Less chance of parasites living in the mouse when you freezed them. It's not 100% guarintee when freezing, but it's better than not freezing them first.

Sorry don't have any extra advice from what has already been given. I used to flick them in the back of the head (the dislocation thing) and they would be out right when i flipped them. I buy frozen now so i don't have to worry about that anymore.

[reverendsterlin]

seann, your another one that makes the iggy list lol

[vanderkm]

Pinkies and small fuzzies can be killed humanely without breaking the skin by snapping them on the top of the skull with your finger or tapping them with a blunt object. It is fast, effective and easy to do and you can be sure each one is dead before freezing them. Freezing live mammals is not humane.

You want to use enough force to produce immediate unconsciousness and this will result in a dark spot forming on the skull when done correctly. The skin does not break and there is no external bleeding, but the dark spot is from brain hemorrhage that indicates they are unconscious immediately. They may continue to kick due to reflex action from massive nerve stimulation.

mary v.

[Zoe]

This is a funny debate! anyways you blood doesn't crystalize before you die! so bite me! and if you have alot you are going to end up freezing them anyways no matter what you are killing them they dies there life is over !! and if you freeze them you dont half to deal with wacking the animal till it dies doesn't semm so awful in comparrison
my my, that was coherent. And the "bite me" remark certainly won you lots of respect! I'm impressed.
But seriously, I don't think you're aware of the fact that freezing a body causes massive damage to cells and blood vessels. Why do you think they can't revive frozen bodies, even though they can revive drown victimes or suffocation victimes (even though the outcome may be a diminished mental capacity). As a matter of fact, according to Professor David Pegg of York University, "The problem cryonics has is that they're taking someone who is dead and freezing them which destroys the body's cells. In mammalian tissue, ice forms at quite a 'high' [relatively high] temperature, causing massive damage to the complicated cell structures which make up the internal organs."

Moreover, I think you are missing the point of the argument. YES the pinkies are going to die and YES they are going to be frozen, but that's beyond the point (not to mention, blindingly obvious). The matter at hand is HOW the killing can be done, as humanely as possible. Freezing is NOT humane. I don't know if you've ever been locked out of the house in 30-below weather, but I assure you it isn't pleasant and yes, your cells and veins are ruptured (again, unpleasant) because when water crystalizes (let's not forget, seann, how much of our bodies are made up of water) it increases in volume (you can see that when you freeze water in an ice cube tray).

Zoe

[Nett]

Originally posted by vanderkm
Pinkies and small fuzzies can be killed humanely without breaking the skin by snapping them on the top of the skull with your finger or tapping them with a blunt object. It is fast, effective and easy to do and you can be sure each one is dead before freezing them. Freezing live mammals is not humane.

You want to use enough force to produce immediate unconsciousness and this will result in a dark spot forming on the skull when done correctly. The skin does not break and there is no external bleeding, but the dark spot is from brain hemorrhage that indicates they are unconscious immediately. They may continue to kick due to reflex action from massive nerve stimulation.

mary v.

Yep all u have to do is flick them on the back of the head ;)

[daver676]

Originally posted by Zoe
my my, that was coherent. And the "bite me" remark certainly won you lots of respect! I'm impressed.
But seriously, I don't think you're aware of the fact that freezing a body causes massive damage to cells and blood vessels. Why do you think they can't revive frozen bodies, even though they can revive drown victimes or suffocation victimes (even though the outcome may be a diminished mental capacity). As a matter of fact, according to Professor David Pegg of York University, "The problem cryonics has is that they're taking someone who is dead and freezing them which destroys the body's cells. In mammalian tissue, ice forms at quite a 'high' [relatively high] temperature, causing massive damage to the complicated cell structures which make up the internal organs."

Moreover, I think you are missing the point of the argument. YES the pinkies are going to die and YES they are going to be frozen, but that's beyond the point (not to mention, blindingly obvious). The matter at hand is HOW the killing can be done, as humanely as possible. Freezing is NOT humane. I don't know if you've ever been locked out of the house in 30-below weather, but I assure you it isn't pleasant and yes, your cells and veins are ruptured (again, unpleasant) because when water crystalizes (let's not forget, seann, how much of our bodies are made up of water) it increases in volume (you can see that when you freeze water in an ice cube tray).

Zoe

This is all well and good Zoe, but if the body temperature is getting low enough to crystalize water in the blood (if that is indeed what you're saying), then I can bet you that those animals were already dead BEFORE the freezing took place. And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives. Give me some proof that water can freeze above 0 degrees.

However, I do agree with you in the fact that freezing (not to mention drowning) ANYTHING to death is cruel, irresponsible, and cowardly. Just flick the stupid thing in the back of the head.

[AlexPan]

Hey every one. I did not see any 1 using my method. I poot the pinkes in a ziplock bag, then cloth it, and live them there for a night. What will happen is before they will run out of oxigen, there will be too much (other thing which we exhail) they will simply fall asleep with 100% no pain and never will wake up again.

[Auskan]

Originally posted by daver676
And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives. Give me some proof that water can freeze above 0 degrees.

0 degrees celcius. 32 degrees fahrenheit.

[daver676]

Originally posted by AlexPan
Hey every one. I did not see any 1 using my method. I poot the pinkes in a ziplock bag, then cloth it, and live them there for a night. What will happen is before they will run out of oxigen, there will be too much (other thing which we exhail) they will simply fall asleep with 100% no pain and never will wake up again.

Wow. That is also a very cruel method. Stop being a wuss and whack 'um!

0 degrees celcius. 32 degrees fahrenheit.

Thanks for the clarification genius. :rolleyes:

[Zoe]

but if the body temperature is getting low enough to crystalize water in the blood (if that is indeed what you're saying), then I can bet you that those animals were already dead BEFORE the freezing took place. And despite your quote from blah blah university, I can guarantee you that water will ALWAYS freeze at 0 degrees, pending any additives.

Not necessarily. The animal would be dead before the full effects kicked in, of course, but pinkies are very stoic and can survive long periods of time in the freezer... they are still alive and moving when their limbs have begun to freeze. It's not as though they simply fall asleep and THEN freeze all in one shot; it's a slow, painful process.
Thanks for the physics lesson (I think we're all aware that water freezes at 0C...), but no where does it say that water freezes over 0 degrees C. The term "high" was placed in quotation marks to indicate the fact that the speaker was refering to relatively high, which means high in relation to another number. If that other number is -30C, then 'high' could very well mean 0C.

Zoe

[mykee]

Children....

[daver676]

they are still alive and moving when their limbs have begun to freeze.

You were talking about blood crystalizing in the viens, not whether the limbs freeze first.

but no where does it say that water freezes over 0 degrees C.

I realize that, but the surrounding area of the blood vessel/vien/artery would need to be at or below 0C before the blood were to begin to freeze.

My arguement here is the fact that you say that blood will crystalize in the mammal's body while it is still alive. It won't. If it can, then show me where you found this information, and I will gladly read it.

[Zoe]

Limbs freeze long before the rest of the body does. The body of a mammal will allow limbs to freeze sooner in order to protect the internal organs with as much blood as possible.
Blood DOES crystalize in veins, and quite rapidly in veins in arms, legs, tail. The feet of a pink mouse will be 0C and their internal organs may almost be normal.
If the leg is frozen, then obviously it's at 0C and there is no more blood circulating in the limb > the blood has frozen > frozen = crystalized > blood is in veins > blood has crystalized in veins. That HAS to happen for a limb to freeze. You can't have a frozen finger if there is still blood moving through it.

Zoe

[marylyn101]

thanks..... also with freezing you lose a lot of the good cells that make up most of the feed. it's just the crappy none nutritional stuff left.

[AlexPan]

That is soo true marylyn101! :)

[Kimo]

just some thoughts, and perhaps a question...in regards to freezing pinkies

first off, i was under the impression that the nervous system of a pinky is not fully developed at birth, hence why pinkies need their mother to stimulate their bladder after feeding, to make them urinate, and secondly whats the big deal with freezing a pinky? or even whacking it on the head, or breaking its spine, or just feeding them live to whatever herp you may own? either way i see it, dead is dead your killing the animal one way or the other am i right or wrong here? point is if you really cared about the mouse, why are you feeding it to a snake/lizard/amphibian whatever you may own? personally when i had my burm i froze em and they where generally dead within a few minutes, yes it may be uncomfortable for the pinkie for the first few minutes before it falls asleep to conserve body heat and energy, but at that point i think their brain has pretty much stopped registering "pain" assuming of course that my previous theory is incorrect, not saying i know anything factual here, but just thought i'd bring my "two pennies" to the table :P

Kimo

[mykee]

Kimo, I understand what you are saying, but look at it this way, if it doesn't matter how it's killed, and that it'll end up dead either way think about this: Your dog is terminally ill and needs to be put down. Do you stick it's head in a plastic bag, and hold it's body from shaking for 6 minutes until it suffocates? I'm hoping you say no. So, why not the same respect for a mouse or rat? Being snake owners, we get enough flack. Why increase that flack by killing our pets natural prey items slowly and painfully? It's our responsibility as snake owners to kill a food item as quickly and painlessly as possible. Cervical dislocation (which I am not a fan of, simply because it's much too hands-on for me), CO2 chamber or a quick whack seem to be the most humane.

[Dani33]

I also believe that any animal should be put down as QUICKLY and HUMANLEY as possible. Think about it this way, when it comes time for you to die - would you like to be SUFFOCATED, DROWNED or FROZEN to DEATH!!!! I think not, I hope to god that when it comes my time that I die peacefully. I would prefer to die instantaneously (preferably asleep). This is rediculous. Haven't any of you read about accounts of frost bite? Anyone who has suffered it would tell you that it was extremely painful. How would any of you like to die alive while your limbs are freezing? I think that it's disgusting and cowardly. Although we feed them to our reptiles, they are still life and deserve respect. I don't kill my own, I buy frozen just so that I can avoid doing this myself. Where I purchase them, they are killed using CO2.

[reverendsterlin]

thanks..... also with freezing you lose a lot of the good cells that make up most of the feed. it's just the crappy none nutritional stuff left.

funny a closed system (the animals body) doesn't allow loss. Sorry marylyn101 but your statement makes absolutely no sense and is wrong. Put a batch of green beans in a ziplock and beat it/freeze it to death, all the nutrients are still there(in the ziplock), no where else to go.

[Siretsap]

Actually, that is false too, evalute your frozen vegetables once you thaw them, you will see they have less nutriments in them. Open a can of vegetables and you will have more nutriments in it than your bag of frozen veggies becuase the veggies are kept in a saturated water base solution.

As for flicking a pinky on it's head, I still find this a cruel way, you can't have a 100% success ratio while doing this so a few are bound to suffer from hemmorage to the brain.

[northernsnake]

What a f%#@ing jocke stop playing with the food and just feed your animals. Put them in a ziplock open the freezer door and put them in and walk away!!! mabe some of you should get rid of your hreps so you can play with your rats!

[Zoe]

That was a very closed-minded statement, northernsnake. I breed rats to feed my snakes, but they are also pets. I have a lot of fun working with them and raising them. Eventually, many must die to be fed to a snake. Just because the food chain works that way and because I'm raising rats for that particular purpose, it does not mean that I should kill them inhumanely; they are still living creatures that feel and they deserve to be put down accordingly.
Not to mention that for different people, different animals mean different things. Just because YOU have no problem with brutally and cruelly killing an animal, it doesn't mean that other people don't.

Zoe

[northernsnake]

I have pet rats to all are rats get spoiled by me and the kidds. but some times you just do what needs to be dun and get it over with!

[reverendsterlin]

Actually, that is false too, evalute your frozen vegetables once you thaw them, you will see they have less nutriments in them.

sorry but you have to back this up with something besides your opinion, show the reasearch that backs your statements that fresh+frozen decrease nutrition without any other cooking/treatment. I have played this same game with folks that say freezing meat reduces nutritional values, bottom line is the assumption doesn't make it in the research papers. you have the science/research to back your claims I'll quickly apologize and change my statements/opinion/advise until then...

[Siretsap]

well in taht case same as you find me the research that proves your theory.

[reverendsterlin]

http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/nutrit/pubs/myths/
Myth: Fresh fruits and vegetables are more nutritious than frozen or canned.

Fact: Most fruits and vegetables (produce) are naturally low in fat and calories. Frozen and canned fruits and vegetables can be just as nutritious as fresh. Frozen or canned produce is often packaged right after it has been picked, which helps keep most of its nutrients. Fresh produce can sometimes lose nutrients after being exposed to light or air.

you want more?

[Siretsap]

yeah, I want the proof frozen are better than canned.

[reverendsterlin]

how about you put up some proof the it isn't. Your mouth is running but your not posting proof to back YOUR claims. Whats up with that, stop focusing this debate on me, back your stuff up. Sure I can keep posting back-up papers on my stuff, where is your stuff?
Hey Jeff, this get me into the put up or shut up club lol, flower or not the Rev don't play.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Fresh greens, fruits and veggies will loose their nutritional content to light and air. Also, after time, they begin to break down (rot) and loss of nutrients happens as well. Frozen veggies, greens and fruits are a good choice, as this stops the natural break down of plant material. The cfrozen temps also will 'lock in' nutrients into the plant material, with a slower loss of them. Just like your milk in the fridge...it also looses vitamins due to light and air. Thats why the healtheir choice is to purchase cartons over plastic jugs. Light destroys vitamins. Light destroys nutrition. Go to the vet and get a prescriptioon for lets say....Antibiotics. Light will also destroy the content here as well. Heck, light bleaches if given enough time to do so.

For those who say frozen foods are a bad choice, I feel it is wise to pick up a book and read. Myths are only that, myths....

[reverendsterlin]

thanks for the back-up there Cm, surprising how many folks talk without knowing what they speak of lol. Glad to see others do their research, I would hate being a loner lol.

[reverendsterlin]

Siretsap where are you, where are your research links, what happened to your vehement support for your beliefs? Come on, I like folks showing me to be an idiot(note spelling for idiot for your next posts), so prove me wrong. The Rev likes these silly games so don't quit playing I want to allow you to make youself seem the idiot ;). Ok mods I understand, go ahead and delete this post enough folks probably have already seen it to make their call on truth lol.

[Siretsap]

lol ok let's see who will be the idiot.

http://www.kidney.ab.ca/kidneys/diets/tips/canned.html

Canned Foods
Canned food is the original convenience food. It is easy-to-use, versatile and readily available. The canning process itself preserves the food sealing in freshness, flavour and nutrients for up two years, preservatives are not needed. Anything added to canned food is simply there as flavour enhancer. Salt and sugar are often added but they are not necessary for preservation. A wide range of low no-sodium and reduced sugar or sugar-free varieties are available for individuals special diets. These are a great option to increase variety in the diet.

Frozen Foods
The technology to freeze certain foods provides you with the ability to
buy a variety of out of season produce year round, without a large difference in nutrient composition.

Most vegetables are “blanched” before they are frozen (to stop enzymes from spoiling the produce). This means that they are boiled at a very high temperature for a short time. This process can sometimes lower the nutrient values (including phosphorus and potassium); however, there is not a large difference in nutrient composition.

So here you go, happy now?

note that I never intented to make you look like an idiot, I just said that frozen don't have all the nutriments. Canned is better, but got to be a saturated water solution like I mentionned.

[reverendsterlin]

ok, back to the original post on this thread. I don't know of anyone that blanches their pinks before freezing them. Again we come back to the point of you saying frozen loses nutritional value, again I ask you to back that claim. We don't parboil, we don't do anything but toss a mouse into the freezer. Where is the nutrition loss and back that with research?
me happy? never I like to argue too much.

[drewlowe]

Next on the market:

Canned Mice- I'll be lined up for that one!!!

[Siretsap]

ok and I don't know anyone who cans their pinkies either,

but you are talking of general freezing, so there you go

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by reverendsterlin
Put a batch of green beans in a ziplock and beat it/freeze it to death, all the nutrients are still there(in the ziplock), no where else to go.

Why would I be off topic? you are the one who started with the damn veggies,.

I only told you it's not the case with frozen vegetables.

[reverendsterlin]

ok and I don't know anyone who cans their pinkies either,
but you are talking of genera freezing, so there you go
There I go? General freezing, sorry but I was responding to this specific post no general. Are you saying you can't or won't back your claim, you saying you were perhaps mistaken, you saying sorry Rev for dissing you? Obviously I like agruments but your seeming to try to back out without making a firm statement one way or another, you wanted to make me seem the idiot and I challenged you on it, now you want to slink out without making your point or an apology?

[Siretsap]

Omg you are such an ***,
You posted you damn ziplock bean bag comment so I only said that your bean bag wouln't have as much nutriments as a can of vegetables. And I even posted the webcite that proved it. So you swallow your damn pill or shove it where I think,

[Siretsap]

And take any frozen item, when you let it thaw, juices extract from this item so you loose part of the nutriments.
Even if your mouse is a closed system , like you said, you will still loose nutriments when you thaw it, either by putting it in hot water, or letting it thaw on your counter, either way, it will loose nutriments by the juices that will come out of it.
try it, take a mice, freeze it, and then take it out to thaw it, Oh my! there is a wet spot where it was standing, hummm wonder waht that is?! a closed system that had a leak!!!!

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by reverendsterlin
funny a closed system (the animals body) doesn't allow loss. Sorry marylyn101 but your statement makes absolutely no sense and is wrong. Put a batch of green beans in a ziplock and beat it/freeze it to death, all the nutrients are still there(in the ziplock), no where else to go.

Also, you say I tried to make you look like an idiot, well I wonder who's statment was worse, yours telling her she had nonsense or mine right below yours???
I was polite but you are a dummy.

[reverendsterlin]

well again my ziplocked green beans were never blanched, you haven't posted any proof that freezing degrades nutrition in any way, and this 'dummy' has a whole lot more education than you do. Here we sit, back your claim that freezing mice degrades nutrition, you seem to avoid that and doing it the first time I asked you to would have prevented most of these posts. Again I say you have stated your opinion as fact, back it up and this ends with my apologies.

[reverendsterlin]

oh to clarify my education, BA sociology, BA psychology, MA education(with a sociology minor). Wouldn't want you to think I was blowing smoke.

[northernsnake]

I think your little wet spot is more the result of a frozen animal and warm air i.e condinsayshun like a hot breath on glass!!..............leaking LOL...........is that how you spell condinsayshun?

[Siretsap]

http://waltonfeed.com/self/nutrdehy.html

frozen foods loose 30 to 60percent of their nutritional values.

so we were both wrong.
bot items do loose nutriment values.
and yes the condensation thing is true, but the water came from
the rupture of the cells, most liquids, when frozen will expand, thus your cells breaking. this is why at the moment we cannot freeze a live human body and thaw him live again, too bad for Walt disney.

[northernsnake]

Any budy have a scale we could settle this.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Fact of the matter is that you will lose nutrients no matter how you cut it. Rarely is anything given 'fresh', unless you kill it or pick it yourself. If you take something as fresh as you can, the best way for the common person to store it is by freezing. Canned goods after time release minerals and vitamins as well. Not like you are going to use up the water within the can as part of the diet (being that is where a lot of the nutrients are now).

For instance, those that keep iguanas. They feed their lil' lizards a diet of foliage. Foliage (greens) will spoil rather quickly in a fridge, if the produce is not used up fast enough. The light, air and moisture in this environment within the fridge will destroy nutritional content rapidly. If it were divided up and froze, it would have much more nutritional content as the stuff in the fridge after the same amount of time. Frozen produce/food does not break down as fast. And true, cells do break down when froze. Yet, we are talking about minerals and vitamins here, not cells.

Anyhow, back to part of the subject. To sum it all up. Best way to assure that your food is best over time is to freeze it. Buy fresh, prepare and freeze if need be. This way you know what is in your food content. Or, simply raise your own and offer it fresh if you can.

[Siretsap]

your cells are what contains your vitamins and minerals,

[reverendsterlin]

http://www.exoticflock.com/parent_diet.htm
There are breeders who frown on freezing soft food citing that nutrients are lost. However, human nutrition research indicates that nutritional loss during freezing is minimal as long as the freezing takes place quickly.

http://www.xenicalmd.com/weight_loss_faq.php#weight_loss_tips8
Does freezing affect the nutritional value of food?
No, freezing does not affect the nutritional value of food nor does it affect the protein value of meats such as chicken and fish.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/qa-sto2.html
Does freezing affect the level of nutrients contained in foods?
Fortunately, the freezing process itself does not reduce nutrients, and, for meat and poultry products, there is little change in protein value during freezing.

Research Findings on the Application of Warming and Freezing
Imme W. Kersten, Dr. Sita R. Tatini, Kaushik Subramanian
Increased research devoted to finding...
Freeze/thawing as a viable method
little start-up capital compared to pasteurization
minimal to no nutritional loss possibly no change in sensory characteristics i.e taste, smell, appearance

http://mailman.u.washington.edu/pipermail/phnutr-l/2000-April/004015.html
Freezing is a very efficient method of preserving the nutritional value,
texture and flavour of many vegetables. Most vitamins will keep well in
frozen vegetables. Carotene (a compound that is converted to vitamin A in
the body) may actually be better preserved in frozen produce because
packaging keeps the vegetables away from light (which destroys carotene).
For example, frozen peas typically have about 60% more carotene than 'fresh'
peas (that have been exposed to light during their trip to the market and
while awaiting sale).
http://www.vegetarianorganiclife.com/7.htm
On the other hand, cooking and freezing certain plant food can provide more nutrients and make more nutrients available to the body. Broadly speaking, frozen fruit and vegetables can be just as nutritious as fresh. Nutrient losses in frozen vegetables are not necessarily due to freezing but to the blanching process of vegetables that usually happens before freezing. The loss of nutrients in vegetables during blanching is not more significant than loss of nutrients due to cooking.

I could go on and on but this thread has lost it's appeal as has the silly argument on nutrition, believe how you want to believe but bottom line is no one has proven freezing changes nutrition, and a lot of reseach says it doesn't.

[mykee]

Sorry to jump in here, but what's a nutriment?

[Siretsap]

and no one has proven it doesn't either
so we both were wrong, just admit

[Burm crazy]

it does not realy matter if you feed your snake did pinkeysor not because that will not afect your snake if you wont to feed him dead food.

[marylyn101]

i just wanted to know a painless way to kil pinks and fuzzies. the fact that you two are so determined to prove to one another is kinda cool. i've never started a long forum before. but thank you for your contribution. i take both of your opoins(sp) and accept them both. but i wan to know how you "flick" it.

[Doug & Deb]

Put them in a zip lock bag and push the air out and them freeze them they will be dead within 5 minutes.

[vanderkm]

Marylyn,

Likely more detail than you want - should really take a picture because it is easier to show than to explain but - To kill pinkies or fuzzies by flicking or snapping their head, I grasp them firmly by the hindquarters, just over the hips, with my left thumb and forefinger and hold them firmly down so they cannot move forward. The tail is too delicate (it can separate) to hold at this age. I rest the fingernail of my right middle finger on my right thumb, direct it downward, and flick it off so that my fingernail will hit the rodent directly on the top of the head over the brain, compressing the skull beneath my fingernail when my finger snaps off my thumb. By using downward direction and holding the mouse firmly with the other hand, you make sure all the force is directed to the brain and you don't send the mouse flying across the room. You need some control to avoid rupturing the skull, so practice on fuzzies before doing pinkies - pinkies don't need much force. I place them in a container of shavings to absorb any urine, or blood that may come from the nose and remove them when they stop kicking and freeze or feed. If you hit too hard you will push brain material out the nose - they are dead immediately regardless, but it is a bit messy.

mary v.

[Neo]

this isnt really my argument but i just skimmed over this long thread and wanna offer an opinion. imo C02 is just as cruel as suffocation. They both make it so that the animal can no longer breathe and pass out. freezing is similar. we all know that temperature has to do with the movement of molecules (faster: hotter :: slower: colder) so before the blood crystallizes the circulation will progressively become slower. And we all know that the purpose of breathing is to provide blood with oxygen. So basically when the circulation is so slow that the rest of the body doesnt get oxygen, again the body will pass out from suffocation. Then the blood will continue to slow down till it crystallizes.

on that fruit topic... canned goods basically seal off air which can lead to chemical changes. like grape juice --> wine. dunno bout freezing. but what i'd think is that u know how when u freeze a bag of peas and u open it up u see a coating of ice? thats cause when u freeze it the water inside it expands out of its place. and when u thaw it out the water goes somewhere else (outside of the peas)

but yeah flicking it on the head will relieve it of consciousness. and we humans tend to define existence through consciousness. so instant unconsciousness= instant death.

oh yeah feel free to argue against me.. i'm just a highschool student and i bet u older ppl know more than me

[Linds]

A good arguement's great for anyone, but please refrain from namecalling (ie- dummy, idiot, etc). Thanks.
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Marylyn,
I end up exploding 30% of them if I wack :rolleyes: I used to do the flicking thing for a while, but I still feel a bit uneasy, not sure if they are actually unconscious or not (you cannot tell since they still move regardless). What I do now, is pinch their skulls right in. You have to do it on the right angle, or else you end up squirting their brains right out the nose, I make sure to aim it backwards to the brain seperates and shoots back in to their back and shoulders. They still wriggle a bit, but there is no way that they are conscious after such severe head trauma :/

The frozen foods debate,
There actually was a study done on the nutritional value of frozen feeders (so it is completely 100% on track). The link is http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Wh...inal02May29.pdf ,but it appears to be down right now :confused:
My 2cp on the matter... if indeed there is any depletion of nutrients in your frozen feeders, it is so insignificant that it wouldn't affect the animal's health, and should not be of any concern.

Originally posted by Neo
imo C02 is just as cruel as suffocation. They both make it so that the animal can no longer breathe and pass out. freezing is similar.

It is completely differnet from suffocation (strangulation/drowning). The animal does not feel itself being deprived of oxygen, it can still take air in and out of its lungs, and just eventually becomes unconscious....much like if you were really tired. Now if you are drowning or strangling the animal, it cannot take air in at all and will completely panic until it is renedered unconscious... big difference.

but yeah flicking it on the head will relieve it of consciousness. and we humans tend to define existence through consciousness. so instant unconsciousness= instant death.


See above response.

[Neo]

oh yeah when i said suffocation i meant like sealing it in a bag. not choking or drowning. those cause shock to the brain