Brumation fluctuations

[marisa]

Hi guys!

I am brumating four adult snakes (two corns, 1 cal king, 1 mexican black) in a spare bathroom. I regulate the temp by opening or shutting the window more or less. (Everyone in there is WELL protected from drafts)

But with this stupid fluctuating winter weather I am having a hard time keeping the temps as stable as I'd like.

Right now it ranges between 48 and 60F. 48 is extreme low, and 60 would be a high for a couple hours if I can't cool it down enough. Most of the time, I'd say 70% of the time the temp is between 52 and 56F. Are these fluctuations going to harm the snakes? I am trying my hardest to keep the temp more stable.

They have been brumating for almost a month now, and all four are holding weight and non-active. thanks

Marisa

[vanderkm]

We had that kind of variation last year and have had similar this year too. If temps are too much above 60 you may see more weight loss than you might like and I am careful not to let them go below 40, but some people maintain that the fluxuation is actually closer to what happens in a natural situation and not a problem. We do locate our males where the temps are lowest so we are more confident the sperm development will be enhanced.

I am sure they will do great for you,

mary v.

[marisa]

Thanks. I am totally nervous because its my first time brumating anything aside from a bearded dragon once. Anyways since they seem to be doing good so far I will just work on keeping it at least below 60.

Marisa

[reverendsterlin]

neither the corns or kings 'need' brumation for breeding, other than saving on food bills or adjusting to their seasonal schedule there is no reason for brumating. That said temp fluctuations become irrelevant.

[marisa]

They don't need it but it can definitly help with the males. I am brumating my cal king and my mexican black because both go off food this time of year anyways, regardless of temp like MANY male king.

So to me, its not irrelevant, but thanks for your opinion of it being so.

Marisa
BTW. I don't need to save on a food bill for four snakes??? Talk about "irrelevant"

[reverendsterlin]

>They don't need it but it can definitly help with the males.

do you have any research that backs this? everything scientific(meaning with research) I have read says no. Sorry if you thought I was belittling you in some way, actually I never considered you in any way, just stating the facts as I know them.

[marisa]

The males eating "rituals" is what I was referring too, as in going off fed. Wasn't clear though now that I re-read.

As for sperm count I am actually on your side if thats believing it is not needed, as I had a very fertile good sized clutch from a non brumated pair this past season, so I definitly know not brumating also works!

Marisa

[reverendsterlin]

np, just note in my original post "or adjusting to their seasonal schedule"

[Simon Sansom]

Hi folks,

I have heard from herpers more experienced than I, that if fluctuations continue or are too great, it can wreak havoc with the female's ovulation cycle, basically causing her to ovulate too early.
Something to think about.

I think most of us try to keep our brumation temps around 55 degrees F. for our temperate-climate colubrids.
It can be difficult to provide a place cool enough.

Good luck with your animals. Keep us posted.

Simon

[vanderkm]

Interesting point Simon. So the females would ovulate before being brought out of brumation? Would you expect to see a pre-ovulation shed during brumation that would tip you off that something like that was likely? Seems there is more info on ovulation in boids than colubrids, at least from what I have been able to find.

I have gone almost entirely from the 'general knowledge' that is shared on the web about the benefit of brumation for males - and like Reverend says - it helps with my feed bill and time off for short holidays!

Something more to think about - really wish there was more scientific assessment to rely on - but with so many species that may have variation - hard to know if what works best for corns can also be applied to milks or kings when they come from such varied environments originally. Always lots to ponder,

mary v.

[Vanan]

As for sperm count I am actually on your side if thats believing it is not needed, as I had a very fertile good sized clutch from a non brumated pair this past season, so I definitly know not brumating also works!

What species would that be? If you're talking corns, they don't even brumate in the true sense of the word for most part of their range. Plus, it is general knowledge that spermatozoa does undergo mutations and degeneration if exposed to prolonged high heat.

[Invictus]

I made the decision this year not to brumate my corns, but from what I've read, heard, and seen, it can only help. Last spring, my big male corn mated the female constantly for a couple of weeks - and nothing came of it. Would brumation have helped? Who knows. Maybe they're both infertile. I'll give them another try this spring, but without brumation.

With the Kings and milks, however, they have been put down, because I heard/read that they usually will not breed without a brumation period. Because of their cannibalistic nature, I decided not to take a risk.

[marisa]

O.k. I am utterly confused now.

But first I would just like to say I ALREADY have them in brumation, so any discussion on if I should be or not doesn't matter at this point. They are already being brumated. That's the choice I made and obviously, I am sticking with it.

My question involved knowing how much fluctuation is too much. Like I said 70% of the time the temp doesn't change from 52-56F. Its the spikes that do down to 48 (hasnt been lower) and up too 60F. One person said they will be fine, another person said I am possibly causing my snake to ovulate too early (or thats a possibility) so I am unclear on this. Since I am having fluctuations should I take them out sooner than planned, or are those fluctuations small enough they will be fine?

Thank you.
Marisa

[Vanan]

It depends on snake to snake and species to species. It may cause a snake to ovulate too early but I doubt it when it doesn't go past 60F. In the past (when we didn't have a cool basement) we've brumated snakes at 60F-68F. Noone ovulated too early or anything. Just got more loss on body weight. This year I'm aiming for 45-55F.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I feel if your going to brumate your corns, that it should be done at around a temp gradient of 50-55°. With the fluctuations your having I would say those are normal and no problem as is. Anything above 60° is at risk of RI and of course a bit of weight loss. There is a fella near me that brumates all his snakes together at 40-45° respectively (mostly montane species), only changes the amount of time a given species is 'under'. His brother lives in a hotter climate, and brumates his at about a 12° increase in temp, also not having any problems. Both of these temp gradients are under 60° during the whole prosedure. I have been brumating this year at a gradient of 42-55°, but no corns, mostly montane species, thus the lower temps I prefer. When it comes to corns, it is up to the keeper to brumate or not, but I feel the temps should be at a gradient not exceeding 60° if your going to go with it. IMO, I feel it only helps to brumate.

[MouseKilla]

I'm having the same issue using a spare bedroom to cool them, sliding the window more or less open depending on how cold it's been in the last couple of days. Here in S. Ontario our weather is so bloody crazy in the winter it's impossible to have anything close to consistent temps. At least those of you on the prairies can rely on a total deep freeze between say Hallowe'en and March. lol! I've been wondering the same things about how cold is too cold for them to survive and how warm is too warm for sperm production and ovulation. This breeding business is stressfull!

[Vanan]

How cold is too cold? I did read somewhere ( can't remember for all I'm worth) that the critical low temps for snakes are around 32F-35F. It varies between each species though. Critical highs are somewhere around 112F-115F. But don't quote me on this and try testing to see if your snakes will brumate at 36F! I did read that in a book but might be off by a bit.

[tai_pan1]

Marissa, I wouldn't worry about those temp fluctuations. In the wild the temps are going to be fluctuating much more than that. Mother nature is wonderful, and has planned in advance for short periods of high and low temps. In my opinion, you don't need to worry about your female ovulating too early unless your temps reach the low 70's for a period of a couple of days or longer. I have no scientific facts to back that up, so if people want to disagree, feel free. Temps into the low 40's and into the low 60's for short periods (a day) are not a problem. Relax, enjoy your time off from feeding and good luck with the mating in the spring.

Mike

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Natural hibernaculum will not necessarily fluctuate that much. In most cases, the area used for brumation is almost at a constant temp. Much like permafrost, the temp stabalizes at a given gradient for a period of time. This is also dependant on what is being used. For montane species lets say, they will find a deep hole, den, etc that will stay above the freezing point during winter. These areas are far from any drafts or rapid temp changes and usually will remain the same temp year round as well. Species that take a short 'nap' through a cold spell or part of the winter will find areas that are more easily acceptable for wider temp gradients. Yet overall, snakes will not choose an area if they feel/know the temps are going to rapidly change on them. Does not make for a good brumation if the temp gradient is to wide. This leaves to much of a risk for them while they are vulnerable to freezing, infection, disease and even predation.

[crimsonking]

Well, down here in FL. I usually have to run an A.C. to get my temps anywhere near 60.F. There are times during the 2 mos. that the temps reach that high, and there are cold nights when the temps near 40F-- I've not lost any snakes and I do save $$ by not feeding. Montane ssp. may benefit from a brumation period (sperm count and/or ovulation) but I have bred successfully pyros and graybands w/no cooling. I would think if you keep them under heated conditions during the year, they would respond to a cool off period. I really think they are quite adaptable and will come around to your seasonal changes and breed successfully. As for the fluctuations-- yours seem to be minor to me.
:Mark

[reverendsterlin]

numerous folks double clutch their corns. do you think they throw their animals back into a brumation prior to the second mating? If brumation was "necessary" would the animal be capable of double clutching without it? back up statements with fact.

[Vanan]

Isn't double clutching a result of the onset of ovulation after parturition? Like in most animals which go into heat once giving birth. I think it's more the fact that it just layed/gave birth which set off ovulation rather than just ovulating when it feels like.

BTW, I do agree that brumation isn't necessary to breed alot of the colubrids. Just that I think the double clutching thing isn't a good example. :)

[rynwilliams]

In the corn manual i have it says you should be aiming for a temp at about 65, bun not to go above 70, mine are around 60-65 and have not lost any visable weight so far (almost 2 months in)