I hope this is not a threat to the future of herping...

[Invictus]

I just read this article about our friend Dr. Bryan Fry. While I'm proud to be acquainted with someone who is truly on the cutting edge of reptile research, I have serious concerns about the way the press is presenting his findings. Here's the article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031216075937.htm

It contains absolutely nothing that we have never read before here, but please read it and tell me what you think - then re-read it pretending you hate reptiles and want to get even the common ratsnake banned. See if you get the same sick feeling that I get.

OBVIOUSLY, Dr. Fry cannot abandon science just because someone might use it as fuel to get herps banned - the research and the findings are as important to our understanding of reptiles as ANY other research. It just has me worried, that's all. We as herpers are going to have to become that much more active with educating people than ever before to be allowed to keep our beloved creatures.

Either that or, this will become a strictly underground hobby.

[Vanan]

Yikes! When you put it that way, it does sounds scary. In fact, it was one of those things I was worried about when Dr Fry published that paper. First thing I thought about was, what's gonna be classified as venomous and what's not?

[Scales Zoo]

Wow.

Yeah, I don't like the way it was written either. I'm anxious to hear Dr. Fry's comments about the article.

I hate interviews. I've read a few of ones done on me that turned out sounding terrible, not like this one mind you.

I do think in the future, this will be brought up somewhere to try and enact or push a bylaw. It is up to us to educate people about harmless snakes, and provide facts to do so in a good way.

Ryan

[sapphire_moon]

well crap, that sucks. I hope herps don't get banned at all. America seems to be a "follow who ever advances first and then take credit" for it country....

[Nicky]

wow how wierd would it be if my corn got re labled as venomous actually maybe since rats and corns are closly related. I hope they don't ban reptiles all togther. Hopefully people won;t responded in fear and kill any snake they see. saw it at my cottage once kids found baby milksnake and were stepping on it soo sad:(.

[marisa]

I don't know much about venom. Actually o.k. I know less about venom than probably everyone here. LOL. But I don't think this will cause anyone to label them as venemous/danger to humans.

Look at other species who have toxic properties to other animals, but not humans. I.E. cane toads are poisonious to creatures that eat them aren't they? But pose little to no threat to humans.

I dunno. Frankly these PETA/reptile hating jerks should keep themselves busy trying to ban something REALLY dangerous like smoking.

Marisa

[Vanan]

maybe since rats and corns are closly related

I just want to clear this up, since this is a pet peeve of mine.

Another name for cornsakes is red ratsnakes. Corns are a species of ratsnake, so not only are they closerly related, they are one and the same.

[Gaboon]

Who cares...

Considering no one has ever died from a rat snake bite i dont think any current non venom snakes will be banned.

[MouseKilla]

I can sorta see what you mean, this could be twisted out of context to mean all snakes are deadlly, venomous creatures. It would take some ignorant politician to take it up as a cause though for it to drive herp keeping in Canada underground. We already have some dumbass local bylaws in nearly every city in the country that limit the size of our collections and which totally benign species we can keep, and you can point to that and things like this article or the odd one in the newspaper as reason to panic but I honestly think it's as bad as it's gonna get already. I said the same thing when there was someone panicking about so-called "guardianship" laws, it would suck if that happened but I don't have any reason to believe that it will.

The reason I don't think we need to panic is that it seems the hobby is getting progressively more popular, maybe I'm wrong about that, I can't back that up statistically but it looks that way to me. I figure the more popular herping gets the less likely someone will want to stop it. It has become an industry and if anything the governments of this country ought to support that. Why persecute someone for running a profitable livestock based enterprise? Lots of people have a problem with the beef and poultry industries but there is too much money in it now, too many stake holders to stop it, no matter how many good reasons there are to do so. Look at the fossil fuel industry for another example of that, tons of reasons why we should stop it for the sake of the human race itself but there is too much money in it.

I guess my point is that it does us no good to fret over every little thing that is bad PR for the herpers or the herps themselves. Some snakes ARE dangerous, some keepers ARE idiots and that will always be the case but what we should do is just stay the course we're on. We should all be safe and responsible keepers so it isn't us that is to blame for bad publicity and we should keep investing in the industry. Buy and sell enough snakes and the market grows. The bigger the market gets the more influencial it becomes and that's what we should be doing, growing the industry because it will give us the influence to maybe divert some attention back to those who own other potentially dangerous things like pit bulls and snowmobiles. I don't advocate picking on those people either but better them than us I figure. I hate that we have to attack this problem in a "dollar democracy" sort of way but as many people who have checked out their local bylaws have found out, logic and reason don't always win the debate.

[Nicky]

oh opps ..thx for clearing things up vanan. I dunno i can see the human society getting involved aren't they agaisnt reptile keeping or something i could be wrong wasen't there like a huge discussion about this a while back on ssnakess i dunno i can't remebering hearing it somewhere and while the herp trade is get bigger and bigger the human society is alot bigger and if they want to ban reptiles they sadly have alot more power than us but hopefully they'll just stay out of this and mind there own business.

[chas*e]

I wonder what natural venom-like qualities that the common house Cat or Dog have, not to mention the toxic effects of being bitten by a human...it does cast a shadow over Reptile keeping for sure if some uneducated anti-reptile moron uses this research in a bias light.

[mark129er]

That article could have some serious ramifications on herp keeping. especially in the hands of herp fearing people.

[liltattyprinces]

It is scary if someone who is uneducated takes this research the wrong way but that is why education is so important, as well as being responsible herp keepers.

MouseKiller just wondering you say snowmobiles are dangerous? I've been doing it since i could walk basically, never had an accident. Like with keeping herps, It all depends on the person in control. just my 0.02 from an avid snowmobiler....

[MouseKilla]

I'm actually pointing out other hobbies that have potential for danger. Snowmobiles are potentially dangerous as are large constrictors and hots. The difference is that you can just licence your sled, or even your gun for the love of God. But snce more people are into snowmobiling and hunting than keeping potentially dangerous species of snakes guess who doesn't even get an opportunity to act responsibly?

That is why I said that growing the market for snakes is the best and maybe only way to keep the stupid laws away. Cars, smokes, guns, booze, all these things kill way more people than snakes ever will but there is too big a market for them to just outlaw them, you can only hope to regulate their use and hope no one gets hurt. The same thing would happen if enough people had enough snakes. Thishobby will become a less attractive target politically the more money it generates and that would be true even if snakes were as dangerous as those things I mentioned that are legal now, which of course they aren't. How many times have you heard of a guy getting drunk and killing his wife with a cobra? lol!

[Tim_Cranwill]

Hmmm.... could turn out to be bad news if the wrong people get behind it.

A bunch of us here must have had numerous Elaphe bites. Anyone ever have ANY effects of ANY type from a rat snake bite? Makes you wonder...

[liltattyprinces]

Point well taken MouseKiller, thanks for the clarification. I taken a few bites from ratsnakes as well as other elaphes never once had a bad reaction.
Laura-Lee L

I would type more but am so tired that i can barely read what i'm writing.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

I really do not see anything coming out of this in a bad way myself. Most of the laws and misperceptions on herps is generated by myths and "wifes tales" IMO. Also, the idea of governments establishing laws towards "monitary leaders" is correct. If anything, I see a good future due to the findings. And heck, if push came to shove, which one of you would not break the law in order to keep something????? (No need to answer!):D

As for pushing the correct information in herpetoculture and the surrounding establishment, good deal. Nothing wrong with striving to make the herp world a better place for all. I just do not see anything becoming illegal or less tolerated because of it.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well, I'm not too worried about the ramifications on the hobby. This is why I always like to see a definition of 'venomous' in the text of a law- something medically significant to humans.

But, I see a sudden demand for Elaphe antivenin! I'm planning to start milking our corns and rats to produce some, starting next week. I'm sure my neighbour will let me use her horses....

Sorry, couldn't resist:-)

BTW, I believe ingesting cane toads can be fatal to humans.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Lisa]

When Bryon was discussing his findings online in a chat he mentioned that North American ratsnakes, king snakes and milk snakes had evolved to the point that they nolonger were producing venom. So it's safe to say that we have nothing to fear for these snakes. Now I'm not saying that they won't cause a reaction, but you won't get a reaction from venom because there is none.


Jeff I'll take 10 of those antivenom vials please.

[Yness]

It scares me because the first thing listed in the City of Winnipeg By-Laws regarding which "exotic animals" are banned is "all venomous reptiles"....

[MouseKilla]

You could look at it that way, you could say that since this research almost erases or renders obsolete the previously accepted distinction between so called "venomous" and "non-venomous" herps that our currently legal animals may suddenly be lumped arbitrarily into the out-dated "venomous" catagory, putting us in violation of the law.

On the other hand, since this research has destroyed the venom distinction between the legal and illegal species it could be argued that the such laws are invalid unless they go on to define the term "venomous", sort of the way Jeff has above. Without that definition the term itself is antiquated and essentially meaningless making the law unenforceable even in cases of potentially lethal species. In other words this research may actually benefit us in that it should, by making the old laws unenforceable, creating a sort of legal vacuum. Hopefully this will encourage lawmakers to seek the facts so they can make new laws that are up to date with current scientific knowledge of snakes and venom.

[BoidKeeper]

I think it just means there are more hots now that's all. As long as people are keeping cobras, gaboons and puffs and don't think we have anything to worry about. If someone is aloud to have a rattle snake who cares if they have a rat snake.
No worries,
Trevor

[Soul_Reaper]

Ok so let me see if i got this right...that article pretty much said that i could get envenomated by taking a damn corn snake bite? That makes no freakin sense! How's that even possible?

I agree with what Invictus said about the weird gut feeling when i was reading the article, but i won't go as far as to say that the hobby will be affected by it. Classifying a corn snake as venomous is just plain ridiculous. Something like that would never be approved i think.

[BoidKeeper]

There are still more non-venomouse snakes out there than there are venomouse. All this means is that some snakes that were once thought of as safe may now be considered dangerouse. However, like someone already mentioned no one has ever died from a rat snake bite.
Trevor