View Full Version : Pine vs. Aspen
I used to use pine shavings for my breeder rats until about a week ago. I recently traded over my colonies to shredded aspen shavings. I find that the prices are the same, with the aspen being a little cheaper. My question to all of you out there is this; aside from the obvious phenol problems, can I have your opinions on which bedding you prefer; (ease of cleaning, odor control, preferred bedding for babies, etc). Thank you much-ly in advance.
Where are you getting it that is cheaper? I would prefer to mix it half and half with the pine. I pay $4 for a 3.5 cubic foot (compressed) bag of pine, cheapest I have seen aspen was a bag a fraction of the size going for $10 :confused: The size of bag would'nt have gotten me halfway through a cleaning :/ It is much healthier, same absorbency, however it sucks at dampening any odour.
I'd LOVE to know where aspen is cheaper too!
I also mix pine and aspen most of the time, but sometimes I just use pine. Haven't had problems but that doesn't meant there aren't concerns with pine. But for now it seems to be fine and works great.
Marisa
OK, allow me to explain. I usually pick up my pine shavings at Superpet, where I get I'm guessing about 2 and a bit cubic feet for $10. Now, on my most recent trip to Ren's Feed for dog food and Mazuri, I noticed that they also had pine shavings for like $7 a bag, BUT they also had aspen shavings for $10. The bag says 3 cubic feet, but it weighs three times what the bag of pine weighed, and it's only slightly larger. I picked up the shredded stuff. I've only used it for one complete cleaning (12'x20' total floor space and maybe 3 " thick) and I haven't even taken a smidgen outta the bag. I'm liking this stuff, glad I didn't end up dishing out the $39 for the same size bag at the above mentioned store. I may be a convert if I can get some positive words about the stuff.
Marisa, to be honest, I probably wouldn't have switched, but I noticed that a few of my oldest breeder rats that have been on pine the longest, have some scabs on their bodies, and are losing their fur in areas. I'm guessing that pine might have something to do with it.
It's a good possibility. My gerbils actually don't do well on pine. They get 100% aspen. I haven't owned rats in ages, but the mice are o.k. with it. So yeah I guess it just depends.
Marisa
vanderkm
12-18-03, 12:59 AM
We had skin and respiratory problems keeping rats on pine but mice seemed to tolerate it well. They didn't live as long either though and the scabby coats you describe are similar to what we saw. Pine was much better for odor control and was more absorbant than the large flake aspen that we were able to get cheap enough to use for rodents. The shredded aspen seemed to absorb equally to the pine, but was much more expensive here. Both types of aspen had less dust than the pine and with spot cleaning with rats we didn't find the odor was much of an issue, but would have been with mice on aspen.
mary v.
reverendsterlin
12-18-03, 01:10 AM
as far as I am concerned any aromatic wood is verboten, good or bad until to final call I won't put animals that go into my snakes on any aromatic wood products, right, wrong, no difference until the facts are established.
Originally posted by mykee
Marisa, to be honest, I probably wouldn't have switched, but I noticed that a few of my oldest breeder rats that have been on pine the longest, have some scabs on their bodies, and are losing their fur in areas. I'm guessing that pine might have something to do with it.
Scabs could also be mites or other parasites
Nope, clean. They would have run over into the other racks, but I noticed that only my 4 oldest rats suffer from this affliction.
BurmBaroness
12-18-03, 01:28 PM
I also agree with revsterlin, I wouldn't want to feed my snakes rocents kept on any aromatic wood shavings. When I used to keep rodents, I kept them on aspen. To alleviate alot of the odor, you can put a few drops of vanilla extract (found in the cooking baking section of most grocery stores) into each water bottle. Don't know why this works, but it does help with odor, and has no adverse side effects.
Feeders on pine bedding is not a concern of mine, it's more the breeders, for they are the ones who are on the bedding for a sustained amount of time, hence my concern for them. If anyone has a link to actual PROOF that the phenols in pine is bad for SNAKES, NOT RATS, I would love to read it. Aside from the fact that I have trade all my beddings over the aspen from pine, would still be a good read, and would FINALLY put this topic to bed for me.
I started layering the bottom of the bins with pine (1/2" deep)for absorbancy, then filling the bins to the top with shredded newspaper. The paper also makes great nest material, I find that the mothers are less stressed when people are in the room if the babies are in a well hidden nest. The only problem is not throwing new unrecorded babies in the garbage on cleaning day.LOL
As to the aspen? I cant help you (never used it before)
C.m.pyrrhus
12-18-03, 05:58 PM
I just prefer the aspen over the pine any day. Pine seems to me to be a bit to 'cheap' to use. Although I do use it in a pinch myself. I seem to think that the aspen keeps smells away better and lasts longer. Even though aspen here is slightly more spendy, over time it pays for itself, and less of an annoying problem. It also is a bit more asorbant....the pine gets 'soggy'. My rats will use anything, so to them it does not matter. I just like aspen due to what I see.
sapphire_moon
12-20-03, 03:32 AM
mykee what are you feeding your rats? I have been on a "pet rat" website and have learned from a few people that rats can get protiene (sp?) scabs if fed anything over 15% protiene. I have a bag of ol' roy that I am going to finish off but after that it's nutro light dog food that has 14% protiene supplemented with kitten formula (For the mother) and fresh fruits and veggies.
Mazuri 6F. I've heard the same thing, but one would surmise that a formulated rat diet would be perfect for rats...no?
Oliverian
12-20-03, 07:58 PM
Yea, I've noticed that a high protien diet causes skin irritations and rashes, too. I used to feed my rats just ol' roy, but after I switched to a mix of dog food, oats, pasta, and seeds it seemed to eliminate this problem.
I found a really interesting site while looking for information. It's kind of a long read, but if you don't want to read it all, you can just skim it and get the main points. I read the whole thing, and found it very interesting. It's about how pine CAN be used for rodent bedding without ill effects. I'd actually like to know your opinions on this, as I recently switched to pine because it's much cheaper.
Here is the link:
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=exoticpets&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fheavyhitter1.g eo%2FPine.html
-TammyR
sapphire_moon
12-20-03, 11:37 PM
Sometimes! Just find out the protiene *sp* content. if it's over 14%-15% then that could be the cause for the scabs, if not then mites, lice, or internal parasites........I'm assuming you quaratined her just in case it is something bad that can jump to snakes (as i'm sure you know thats not usually the case) I hope everything gets better for you and you find out whats wrong with her.
Well pine can be used. I would be afraid of the phenols being frozen on the coat and being digested by the snake. Also housing a rat on pine for a long time can cause something called bumble foot. As can housing rats on wire floors.......I've got my breeders on aspen shavings for now, until I run out, then I'll go get something like care fresh.
Oliverian
12-21-03, 07:03 PM
Sapphire, aren't pine and aspen basically the same shape? If so, how could pine cause bumblefoot and not aspen? I'm guessing the aspen is softer?
Where did you get the information? I'd like to read the site if you have it.
Thanks.
-TammyR
Hmmm... many years ago I used to house pet rats on pine (now it's only Carefresh for the pets), and I never encountered any "bumblefoot" as a result. I even had a female breeder live in to her 6th year. Admittedly, none of the rest had as great a lifespan. I've almost always fed my rats a high protein diet. The only exception is my two current pet rats. They are fed mostly grains and veggies, with dog food once a week. They also get table scraps such as leftover chicken, bones, bread, pasta, etc. from time to time. The one developed scabs, and then when I retired the other, a few months later a few tiny ones appeared on him, though not near as many as the other :confused: No parasites or fungal infections. As soon as I get a hold of some, I'm going to try them on grapefruit seed oil (diluted well). Funny though how the animals housed on pine and fed dog food almost exclusively, showed no skin problems (although they do sometimes get respiratory problems that don't really have any impact on their production), and the ones kept on Carefresh and fed a varied, low protein diet developed them.
Tammy,
Pine is softer than aspen.
sapphire_moon
12-22-03, 02:45 PM
I don't think they are. And my aspen shavings are tiny, like little slivers of it. My pine shavings are like little square pieces of wood.
it is a "pet rat" type of site....http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/habitat/litter.chapter this is about the toxic part of it..... and another one from the forum part. http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/community/viewtopic.php?t=4335
I retract my statement about the bumble foot, I was tired when I wrote it and was thinking of wire floors......I'm sorry.
I think (I'm probably not right!) that real meat, like chicken and chicken bone in the whole (not ground up with other things) has more protiene in it.... Could be wrong, and probably am! Just a thought.....if you switched their diet immeidietly from dog food to the varied low protiene diet it, some of them could have been allergic to something, or got severly stressed from the move and the diet change all at once...But again I could be wrong.....
How long does it take for a new breeding pair to start breeding???( extreme small scale for now, just 1.1, I figure if they have 8-12 kits a month then I will be set for my snakes, for now!) lol. I've got my first pair, I'm waiting for them to give me some food! lol....
Oliverian
12-22-03, 10:19 PM
Quote from the first site you posted, sapphire.
Pine and Cedar shavings are one of the most commonly seen litters but in fact, there is evidence that suggests they are harmful to the health of rats and other small animals.
Now I am honestly very interested in this. Is there any actual documented proof of these woods causing resperatory illness? Or has anyone experienced it with their rats?
Quote from Linds:
Tammy,
Pine is softer than aspen.
Ok, thanks. I was just commenting on that because sapphire stated that pine gave them bumblefoot. (oops, its all good.)
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