beginners

[Lrptls]

what do you all think the best venomous snake would be for a venomous snake beginner? (who has had alot of experience with non venomous snakes including medium sized boids, but never venomous) thanks :)

[jim mcallister]

I have no experience with hots, but i just want to be sure you know you want to do this. There is no room for error!!!! I'm sure you have thought about this alot but be sure!!! thanks :)

[Crotalus75]

Agkistrodon contortrix (copperhead) and Bothreichis schlegelii (eyelash viper) are two species that I recommend. Copperheads are moderate in size and temperment and are very easy to care for. They hook like champs! Eyelash vipers are also smaller and moderately toxic but can be a littlle more tricky in the husbandry department. Try to get well started captive bred specimens so that you can focus more on safe handling and less on medicating sick snakes or fighting to get them to feed.


....also make sure that you have all the proper equipment (hooks, hemostats, tubes) and secure LOCKING cages well before you acquire your specimens. Practice by using these tools with your nonvenomous snakes first.

With some of these animals you don't get a second chance. One mistake could cost you your life.

Here are some helpful links:

http://wwwDOTkingsnakeDOTcom/snakegetters/

http://www.tongs.com

[earthmover]

i would think i copperhead would be a good choice. i would not under any circumstance start with an eyelash though, they can be hard to keep feed and if you are a beginner handle, arboreal venomous can strike a great distance so i would definetly prepare with something different. also if you could sit in on someone else handling venomous reptiles and then participate some

[atheris]

what do you all think the best venomous snake would be for a venomous snake beginner?

There is no such thing.

Nobody cant recommend actually any venomous snakes. Dont take "practise" individuals, get the one you are really interested on. Starting point would be best if you have opportunity to shoot the breeze, plus see in practise what its like to hande such thing as venomous snakes. But best advice is, dont get any.


Just my opinion.

Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[Mustangrde1]

Please tell me i am reading this wrong!!!!!!!!



Dont take "practise" individuals, get the one you are really interested on.

So are you saying if a person is interested in a Black Mamba that is what they need to get first???

Nobody cant recommend actually any venomous snakes.

Actually we can make recommendations! A person living in North America would be far better off starting off with a Native venomous of low aggression and low toxcicity giving a person a chance if a bite occurs to survive it.

As for your Opinion on But best advice is, dont get any. You have a right to your opinion. However people that wish to get in to venomous keeping most likely will and the best advice is to tell them to work under a experianced handler.

[BWSmith]

One thing to also remember, you should know where the AV is located for your snakes. So naturally it is "safer" (NOT "SAFE") to choose a species that the AV is readily available, such as CroFab for North American Pitvipers.

And PLEASE, Venom 101 should be your bible! Read it, learn it, read it again. It far from complete, but the best so far.

[atheris]

So are you saying if a person is interested in a Black Mamba that is what they need to get first???

Basically yes, but using your own commonsense. My argue is that if this new beginner takes for example some Trimeresurus albolabris etc. only cause somebody did recommend this for a good first hot. But actually this beginner is really interested on Crotalus cerastes etc. So he/she will dump the albolabris pretty soon and cause he/she dosent have any interest to this species, also the handling could be unguarded. So when you get the one you really like, your interest will go on.
Hope you get the idea.


Actually we can make recommendations! A person living in North America would be far better off starting off with a Native venomous of low aggression and low toxcicity giving a person a chance if a bite occurs to survive it.

Still im not in the same boat with you in this issue. Giving advice is better than giving recommendations.

people that wish to get in to venomous keeping most likely will and the best advice is to tell them to work under a experianced handler.

Like i mentioned on my previous message.


Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[Mustangrde1]

Kert

It is far better to start with a native venomous to a persons country as the AV is most likely easier to obtain. If someone is interested in a specific herp yes in time they will get it . But far better to start off with proper trainning on less lethal animals.

Wouldnt it be far better to tell people get trainning first then work with a few native species to get some degree of understanding of what you will be dealing with. Who knows after seeing what they are going to have to deal with might turn them off hence the training first. But after training its far better to work with species with AV more available.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Well Michelle,

I know ya from another room, er chat room that is. So to you I say it would be a good idea to read, research and get some experience from an experienced venomous snake collector before you get into it yourself. Here is a good short idea (http://ophidiafanaticus.bravehost.com/keepingvenomous.html) of what you need to understand. All in all you should have a great understanding of venomous snakes before you attempt to keep them at home. Honestly, I do not want to suggest any snake for you frankly because I feel you are not experienced enough about it yet. But if it is something you seriously want to do, there is no stopping ya, but would hope you understand how serious that kind of move is on your part. Being bit and squeezed by a large boa, having your hand tore by a monitor or what have ya is nothing to having a lil prick of some fangs from a venomous to teach you what pain means....if not a very good lesson on life. Do yourself the favor and research first eh. :)

[cantil]

I agree in principle that it is preferable to start with either native snakes or at least with snakes which have readily available antivenin and a low rate of mortality to begin with. However, by the time you begin keeping hots independently you should have sufficient experience working with them that the risk of a bite from any of the less aggressive more tractable ones is all but none existent. By that I mean that when your keeping hots, you should be prepared in case of a bite, but from the small stuff vipera, coppers, most arboreals, if you got nailed you screwed up. With most venomous snakes their is NO reason for you're hands to be within strike range.

Specifically I agree that coppers are the best choice for a starter for some reasons other than the availablility of anti-venin and the low toxicity. Its better to start with something a little wiry and prone to strike occasionally because this will keep you on your toes so to speak. If you start with some trimeresurus for instance they'll let you get bloody close before they do anything then...pow. Animals that are more ambush oriented make bad choices as starters because they encourage carelessness and complacency. They let you get away with errors and this compounds them until one day they catch you on that mistake you'd gotten away with a hundred times before.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

With all the venomous talk today, I wanted to add. I think it is a great idea to know how to deal with venomous in the wild long before your working with them in a captive situation. I know for some this is harder said than done, but it seriously is something that should be done IMO.

I am a "Mountain Mans" son , it was just something I grew up around. Part of everyday life. We had to trap and hunt for food, no such thing as a shopping center till I was way into school. I remember running into rattlers while checking trap lines with my dad, and even just going to the outhouse to do my 'duty.' I have relocated and removed snakes for years, dealt with them on a constant routine. Otherwise, I would not have the natural responce and understanding I do towards hots. I suggest that folks learning would understand the nessesary development of understanding the snakes before they even think about sharing space in their homes with one. Only after 'knowing' a snake will you fully understand what it takes to keep it.

[mark129er]

This debate is well and fine, but the best piece of advice I have seen in this thread yet recommended to get a well started captive born. I don't know about you but I sure as he!! wouldn't want to force feed a baby copperhead.

[Mustangrde1]

Captive Born are deffinately a good idea for anyone to begin with, It is a very royal pain in the butt cleaning up a wild caught animal and giving one Oral treatments is extemely dangerous. The bussiness end is never a fun place to be around.

[snakehunter]

[QUOTE] Giving advice is better than giving recommendations.[QUOTE]

arent these the same thing?

i would say go witha copperhead, it is a widley known species, and AV would be readily available

[BWSmith]

Well, I think the debate is moot since the only thing that can be kept in Maryland without a permit is a Copperhead.

[chas*e]

I like to tell people to work with Amazon Tree boas(1yr) and take some hits then move to whatever...read and talk to lots people first...my opinion only....hots are hots ..they are really something unto themselves....

[Mustangrde1]

Figured i would put this one in both post as it applies to both.....

This hobby was once about guarding secrets and sharing little information with others in it so that if someone had breeding secrets they essentially had a market corner. This was also true in the captive care and maintenance of species for the same reasons. We were all beginners at one time and some of us started out in the time of secrecy and hiding information and knowledge. All we had back then was a few books written by people that looking back now you can see how much was left out of them.

Now we have the Internet, forums, research sites, scientific universities, breeders home pages, etc., etc., etc. All now sharing information giving out advice and tips making recommendations. More and more books with better advice and authors that are more assessable because of e-mail. You have at your finger tips the ability to learn about the country of origin the natural climate and in some cases real time weather of the country.

The first and foremost thoughts should always be on the proper care for the animals be them venomous or nonvenomous. These animals are in reliant on us for all thier life sustaining requirements, they no longer can crawl out ot a basking spot or hunt for prey as they do in the wild. They relie on us to provide these for them and it is our respociblity to provide this for them.

When you get people asking about beginning to start with venomous animals it would be irresponsible of us not to point out species that would best suit a starting level. As I have pointed out before its NOT a graduating experience by any stretch of the imagination. Venomous keeping requires a level of dedication and skill and mental attitude. I could not even in good conscience recommend what I know to be highly aggressive or lethal animals to start with. Nor would it be responsible to advise someone to get an exotic animal who's care is of a higher degree of difficulty. And never refer an arboreal of any type for the beginner.

Looking for good advice the recommendation would be post to forums and ask current keepers its easy to weed out who has experience Vs those who do not by simply reading all the post. At that point the originator of the posting could start asking more direct question and the experienced keepers can help within their knowledge scope. Perhaps we should help people find experienced keepers in the person area so as they can connect and go see what truly is involved in working with venomous reptiles. At that point it should fall then on the persons responsibility to find a trainer and put in the time needed to safely learn how to deal with and work with venomous reptiles.

It should be the goal of any hot keeper to try and give good quality training to anyone interested in learning. This will serve two purposes, First it could and should cut down on the unnecessary bites do to untrained unqualified persons Second it could weed out those people who should not keep venomous at all. This part it really takes a State that requires a permitting process to help with as if you decide in your opinion the person is a Danger you do not sign off on their hours or the letter of recommendation needed for the permit. Now I know some people perceive things different so also this gives you the ability to have another keeper come view the trainee in question if both agree then its time to tell the person that they may need more maturity or whatever. But it can cut down on the bad press of venomous snake bites by hot keepers.

After we have trained a person to the best of our knowledge and ability it becomes a matter of then recommendation of first hot for them to keep in their collection. Lets face it a Native Venomous is a far better choice to start with then an Exotic. Native venomous AV is far more assessable as well as the proper treatment for their bite. Also starting off with something that has a lower mortality rate is a wise idea. In North America Copperheads "Agkistrodon ssp" Along with Pigmy's Rattlers" Sistrurus ssp "are a far better choice then would be the Eastern Diamond Back "C. adamenteus"or the Mojave Rattlesnake "C scutulatus." The Copperheads and Pigmy's bites are painful and can cause damaging effect but the likely hood of death is very low whereas the Eastern or Mojave are definite killers.

After the recommendations are made and hopefully followed the person can work with this species and gain the self awareness and confidence to move on to other species with knowledge and safety and more training. A person who has worked with rattlers does not make them ready for cobras for certain. This is where continuing your training with that species keeper comes in. From my own experience there were animals that I had no clue about I was just lucky enough to have a person that worked with me to take the time to teach me right and properly. Working with an importer I did not have the luxury of picking and choosing what came in. However if I or he was ever uncomfortable with my abilities I just did not work with that species until he instructed me. That goes back to the mental state of mind and maturity that both teacher and student must have. It is an Honesty from within you must posses. I know in medication orally of venomous I was not comfortable with the smaller arboreal and made it clear when I was not and my teacher to his credit did not tease me or make jokes about it but did it himself till I was comfortable restraining the smaller animals. This is something that must be remembered when you train someone "Never make them uncomfortable or do something they do not feel ready to do.

It is very important when training people that proper tools should always be used. Hands on is at times required but knowing when and how is the major key. Hook use is best learned on non-venomous and then put to practical use on less aggressive venomous that ride hooks readily. the same goes for learning how to use tongs or tubes. When it comes to the time to have to work with restraint holds the student as well as the teacher need to be 100% sure of their skill and knowledge. Keep in mind a head restraint for medication or other needed manipulation is not free handling in my opinion its a sometimes needed way to work with an animal. Only should it be done when no other option is available. Also it should be important to teach a person proper packing and unpacking of species. I know of many bites that have occurred during this process. Also how to properly open containers be it a cage or shoe box is another highly important thing a person needs to know. A finger under a shoe box lid or wrapping fingers around sliding glass is just inviting a bite and something most of us take for granted but to a trainee with no experience it can prove deadly.

It should also be a part of ones training to discuss what is and is not proper caging and room safety. Proper caging is very important in we know that screen tops are dangerous there have been instances where snakes have bit and injected venom through a screen cage top from people leaning on or putting their hand on it. With the amount and variety of caging now available these accidents should not occur. If your going to have venomous and want to show them off in nice display cages get ones that are safe on all sides and top and bottom and be certain they are locking and only the keeper himself / herself is the only person with the keys to the cages. Room safety includes knowing where every tool is at all times. Security and integrity of it being escape proof and locking is another issue. The room should have screens over all windows inside and out if possible, screens over all vents both interior and exterior. Doors should be lockable from both sides and have some sort of stop on the bottom to keep snakes in the room in the event of an escape along with having a sign on the door at both the 2 foot level and 6 foot level informing people that their are venomous reptiles inside. I say 2 feet encase of fire and a person is on their knees.

Also it is important that you let the fire department and even law enforcement know of the fact you do keep these animals. I have done this and found they were very receptive to that knowledge and thankful that I took the time and consideration to inform them of this. If for some reason a bite occurs and all you have is a few minutes to get the animal secured and dial 911 having the EMS personal know where you are and what room you may be in is an important life saving tool. Also knowing this in the event of a fire or other disaster lets them know there is a danger and to take needed precautions even if it means staying out completely.

Working with venomous is not a school house mentality or a graduating experience or a keeping up with your friends "The Jones's " syndrome. Keep what your comfortable with and enjoy working with. The joys and pleasures of dealing with some of natures most beautiful and deadly animals can give you hours of relaxation and joy. But it must be tempered with Knowledge and Skill and ongoing training for each species you decide to work with.

[kevyn]

Why on earth would someone with no experience with hots jump right into keeping a species nutorious for their aggression and toxicity? The sname type of thinking that is applied to keeping giants should be applied here, that one needs to gain some experience first with other snakes (namely midsized boids) before moving on to a true giant. Education is the best form of prevention. I couldn't imagine getting a king cobra as a first hot when I myself am still learning how to work with hots and handle them. My first and only hot is a Wagler's Temple Pitviper and though its venom is very weak I still treat it as if it can kill. I am learning how to work with hots with a relativly mellow animal. As my comfort level, confidence and saftey procedures grow, so will my hot collection; not the other way around.