Lets beat a dead horse! My BP won't eat!

[daver676]

Hey Everyone.

I would just like opinions here. Anyone that knows me knows I own a 7 month old ball python that has been nothing but problems since the get go. I got her in May/03. She has always been a sporadic (SP.?) eater. She last ate on Nov 5/03, a large adult mouse. Took her to the vet's office on Nov 15/03 where she measured 20'' and 160 grams, at 6 months of age. Had a fecal done - clear, so I can be fairly certain she is healthy.

Her enclosure is a 15 gallon tank with a screen top. Temps 95 hot, 75 cool. Humidity around 60%. Warm and cool hides, and fresh water. She is very active. Sleeps all day, roams all night.

I am attempting to get her switched to rats, but I'm getting nothing from her. Tried scenting the rat with mouse. Nothing. Clipped the mouse hair onto the rat. Nothing. Frankly, I'm sick and f'n tired of wasting rats.


My questions are these:

1. Could she be fasting because of the season?
2. Is the starving method of switching a good idea on a snake so small?
3. Should I give in and go back to feeding mice until she is bigger?

Here is a couple pics of her:



http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2286Img_0152ssnakess.JPG

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2286ssnakesspic.JPG

[sapphire_moon]

Maybe upgrade her tank to something larger. What type of heat does she have? Just a bulb? or do you have a UTH also? How do you measure heat?

[mark129er]

Sorry about the fasting but if it is any consolation she looks great.

[elevation24]

She looks nice, but she looks really small.

From what I hear babies do not usually fast their first winter, but it's only what I have read. None of my babies are fasting, or my adults for that matter. But it could be different with her, I am sure some babies fast at this time as well. With her size I would continue to try and get her to feed this winter rather than just assume she is fasting, though.

I also wouldn't worry about switching to rats right now. If she doesn't want them, with her being as small as she is, I would stop offering them. She's not of a healthy weight IMO, and she just needs to eat, even if it is a mouse. Mice are fine, anyway. They are said to be less nutritious than rats but it is not going to <i>harm</i> her to eat them, obviously. They are fine, so just feed her mice for now. When she is eating well and has gained some weight I would try to switch her to rats again.

But I'm not an expert :) I am sort of going through a similar situation, only mine is only a September hatchling so she is only 3 months old. She ate once for me a little over a month ago, and now doesn't even look interested when I offer. I've tried fuzzies, hoppers, and adults; frozen/thawed and stunned but not freshly killed (I don't have the stomach). But she's started to lose weight, and so I offered her live a few days ago. She hit it immediately. Fed her again tonight; again, immediately. She was fed live with the breeder I purchased her from, so I am not surprised, even though the mouse she did take with me was F/T.

Have you tried live? Stunned? Freshly killed? What "tricks" have and haven't you tried over the past few months?

Do you know what she was eating with her previous owner/breeder/pet store?

As long as her enclosure and temperatures are fine, unless she just doesn't like what you are offering, I don't see the problem.

[jfmoore]

Hope you won’t get too irritated with me, but may I re-phrase your post?

<i>I have a ball python which is hungry and losing weight. She eats mice but I refuse to give her any. What should I do?</i>

Okay, to address your specific questions:

1. Could she be fasting because of the season?

Sure, it's possible, but the odds are against that. Most young of the year continue to feed on through their first winter if kept at the proper temperatures. It is hard for me to see how you could have as wide a temperature gradient as 20 degrees in a cage that size. I’d say 95 is too hot and 75 is a little low for a hatchling. But maybe you’re measuring the floor temperatures at each end? If so, that would make more sense. Anyway, your question #1 might be answered quite simply – offer the snake a mouse and see what happens.

2. Is the starving method of switching a good idea on a snake so small?

I don’t know. I’ve never starved a hatchling snake on purpose. I especially like to see them take off and thrive. If any of mine turn up their noses at a rat, I happily substitute a nice jumbo mouse. There’ll be time enough for them to go on (normal) hunger strikes when they get older. Keep track of your snake’s weight. If the weeks go by, it won’t eat the rats you keep offering, and it keeps dropping weight, well, then you’ll be able to say that it was not a good idea. Or you could just feed the snake a mouse now.

3. Should I give in and go back to feeding mice until she is bigger?

Guess it depends on your reasons for holding out and not feeding the snake. It IS easier and cheaper for the keeper to be able to feed rats to ball pythons. And yours isn’t going to keel over dead next week from starvation. But she is small for 7 months old. You did say that she was a sporadic feeder. I would suggest you work to get her feeding reliably on mice. It doesn't sound like you're having too much fun with the starvation program, anyway. Ditto for the snake.

Good luck,
Joan

[marisa]

I am no expert on BPs either and I have had troubles with mine sometimes. Somethings have helped out:

Don't handle her at all, she won't need her cage cleaned badly enough that you'll have to hold her either.
Wrap like 75% or more of those glass sides with a dark towel, all the time, until she is feeding regularly.
Offer a smaller than normal prey item, at night, overnight.

That's what I would do.
Marisa

[sapphire_moon]

You might also want to take some of the water out of her bowl. If she ever does decide to go to soak she is going to get water everywhere.

[Soul_Reaper]

I would go back to mice until she grows more and gets a more voracious appetite...then i would try rats.

She looks great tho!

[Ron]

It's nice to get a BP to feed on rats ASAP but it's not always the easiest thing to do. I would go with mice until she is on a steady feeding schedule. After she has taken say 10 meals at the same interval, I would try a rat with no scenting. The BP's that I hatched this year all went on to F/T rats without any trickery. Also you can just stick with mice. I have a BP who will eat 2 mice every 3 - 4 days. It probably would be cheaper to switch her but why mess with a good thing. I got her last Christmas eve and she weighed 300 grams; I weighed her a couple of days ago and she's 1782 grams. 1482 grams in a year, not bad for a mouse feeder.

[lilyskip]

if she's eating mice, give her those. I didn't switch hux to rats until he'd eaten enough mice to get big enough for a small adult rat. the important thing is that she eat, since she's so youn.

[daver676]

Thanks for the replies everyone. In hindsight, I shouldn't have been so eager to get her onto rats. She had 4 feedings 5 days apart up until her trip to the vet, so I was thinking she was ready. I guess not.

I offered her a mouse last night, but she showed little interest. Usually when I put the food item under the heat lamp to warm up, she starts going nuts, like flicking alot and moving around the tank really fast (as fast as a bp can go, that is), but I haven't seen any behavior like that out of her since the last time she ate.

I haven't handled her in about 3 weeks, with the exception of that picture I took. Her current heat source is the bulb. Maybe I'll try a smaller food item.

[elevation24]

Her only heat source is a light bulb?

[mykee]

Again, in response to someone's comment, the enclosure your bp is in is MORE than adequate for it's size. If you were to throw her in a larger enclosure WHILE she's not eating, it could only stress her out more. Leave her where she is. Also, for those who say that hatchling bp's don't fast their first winter, kiss your balls, because I have 6 2003 babies, and 4 of them are taking the winter off. Stick with mice until she is a consistent eater, and don't play with her all that much. She'll eat eventually.

[Vengeance]

How are you measuring the surface temps in the tank?

[daver676]

The lightbulb is the only source of heat, and it's more than enough to get the temps where they need to be. It's a red "reptile" heat lamp. Surface temps are measured with an indoor/outdoor digital thermometer.

[sapphire_moon]

what are they under her hide? And again, size of enclosure is always a personal preferance, as long as you have enough hides then you should be fine. I'm not saying it's the only way to go. It's just personal preferance. Just as long as your not throwing a hatchling into a 2ft and up enclossure, it should be fine. Just a personal preferance that every snake owner has to make on their own. :) :)

[Vengeance]

Does it have a Tempature probe? I made the mistake of buying one without so I was only getting ambiant air temps and not surface temps. Once I picked up my Temp gun I found out just how scrwed up my surface temps actually were.

[marisa]

Actually if a snake is not feeding its NOT a choice for the snake owner to make on their own.

For a healthy, feeding BP yes you are right a choice each owner can make. But telling someone to move a non feeding BP into a bigger enclosure was terrible advice. Its a step backward not forward.

Marisa

[elevation24]

Originally posted by daver676
The lightbulb is the only source of heat, and it's more than enough to get the temps where they need to be. It's a red "reptile" heat lamp. Surface temps are measured with an indoor/outdoor digital thermometer.

So you are getting surface temperatures of 95°F? Surface temperatures as in the bottom of the enclosure ("surface")? In that case it is probably too hot in there, because if the heat lamp alone is making the BOTTOM of that tank 95°F, what is the air like in between that?!?!

I'm willing to bet that it is either too hot in there, or you are not being entirely honest about the temperatures or the way you are measuring them. That just doesn't sound right.

In either case I would get an under tank heater or heat tape (and a digital thermometer with a probe if you don't have one) and try that.

[daver676]

I put the probe directly under the heat lamp (on the floor of the enclosure), and that is where I get the 95. Yes, it's digital.

I'm willing to bet that it is either too hot in there, or you are not being entirely honest about the temperatures or the way you are measuring them. That just doesn't sound right.

What reason would I have to be dishonest about the temps? I would never lie about something so important.

I'll double check those surface temps tonight.

[BurmBaroness]

Dave,

I currently have a het pied late o3 baby that is semi fasting. So it's not unusual AT ALL. Also, I agree that moving her to another enclosure would also increase the feeding problems. Another thing, lights as heat sources for BP's are terrible. Not only does it dry them out, causing bad sheds, there is no under tank heat source, which they need for good digestion. Toss the light and get an under tank heater. I use human heat pads, set on low to get the right temps. Now, about those temps. 95 is too hot, and 75 is too cool. I have kept many BP's, and have found that they do best when the warm side is 92 and the cool side is no lower than 82. 20 degrees difference is too much of a gradient. I used to keep mine in glass aquariums, then I wised up and got rubbermaids. I don't use them for all my snakes, just the balls. And I have to say that humidity is great, sheds are great, and they are only semi transparent, so the snake feels less stressed.
I actually moved this little guy to a rubbermaid when he wasn't eating, and after a week to settle in, he ate. As for the rats, I also agree that as long as she's eating mice, don't stress her by trying to switch. Especially since she had such a rough start.

Good Luck!

[Auskan]

My BP fasted last winter from like October to, believe it or not, June of this year. I force fed her in March when she was still showing no signs of eating. She is my first snake (I now have several others) and had initially been living at my ex's house, where the temp fluctuated a LOT. Once I moved her to my house, I started keeping her at a very consistent temperature. Also, I have tried very hard to keep the humidity level up. I recently purchased a humidi-mat and can't praise it enough. Her tank is now very consistently in the tropical range on a hygrometer (or whatever those things are called). I also added hides to her enclosure which she hadn't had at my ex's. I have a heat mat under one end of the tank and a black light in top. I leave the light on during the day, the heat mat at night, which means her tank is several degrees warmer during the day than at night but always a consistent humidity level. She has a hide in the cool end and the warm end and regularly moves back and forth between them. I also get her out to exercise often. Since she voluntarily started eating in June, she hasn't let up. She's accepted food every single time I've offered it, and we stick to a very regular feeding schedule. Now, in mid-December, she is showing no signs of wanting to fast. I'm no expert, but getting her conditions as close as possible to "perfect" for her, seems to have made a difference and she is definitely thriving now.

[IMO]

I would suggest 2 things.
1) Get some belly heat under the tank. You can use a UTH or a human heating pad (set on low).
2) Try feeding in a smaller shoebox size box, lights off, but doesn't have to be pitch black. I had a problem initially with my snake not eating. I was advised by the seller to try this method and it worked on the first shot. Mice are just as nutritious as rats, just a smaller meal. I feed mine 2 mice per week. I got mine in May 03 at 2 or 3 months. Now its 8 or 9 months old, 27inches, and 2inches in girth. Good luck.