Dang cloudy tank problems

[sophia]

Folks,
For four weeks in a row now I have been fighting this cloudy arrowana tank until I'm ready to scream. We don't over feed, he eats about 1 to 2 shrimp per day, I feed the cory cat once a week about 3 pellets (very small), the pleco eats the algae so I don't feel the need to feed him, there's no ammonia problem according to the tests, no Ph fluctuations, etc...

A few weeks ago I noticed the water was cloudy and I did a general cleaning including taking off the power filter and cleaning the inside and the uplift tubes and the impeller, while cleaning the impeller, I found that the magnet had captured a tiny piece of metal and it was rusting and in general outrage and shock, I set about cleaning the entire tank with a python hose and because it was so cloudy, I did a half water change. I was running pure synthetic filter media and I changed it out and washed out the relatively new media and placed it back inside the filter. This did not fix the problem and so after another water change and no luck with that, I tried adding a Tannin based poylmer clarifier called Insta-Clear which sometimes will turn the water yellow, but usually does the trick on the clouding. THIS DIDN'T WORK EITHER and I did yet another change and application of the product and again, changed filter media. I have done that yet again and it was another half tank water change this time, generally for regular cleaning purposes I only do a quarter change but the clouding is drastic and I can't see anything (parasitically speaking) floating in the water in the tank or in the test tubes!

I am at my wits end, but mind you, the fish are extremely healthy and eating well so I don't know what else to do!

Please, suggest something, I know that some of you are well versed, I think it was Shane whose posts I read several weeks back and I've even tried carbon to clean up the tank to no avail, I'm mad enough to throw the tank out the window and put the fish in the bathtub! *kidding* but I am frustrated.

Thanks in advance fo any advisement you can offer:confused:

Tay (who is going to clean the tank yet again):bugged:

[Youkai]

Sounds like a bacteria bloom to me. Any other suggestions? Changing the filter media and doing such a drastic water change probably worsened the problem if it was bacterial. Usually, a normal water change fixes the problem. Or in new tanks waiting it out, but this tank doesn't sound new, so.....

Yeah. Other suggestions please!! ^^;

[corr]

Yes, it defintely sounds like an algae bloom.

Changing the filter media is part of your problem. Simply rinse it in old aquarium water and put it back in. By removing the media, you are also removing the nitrifying bacteria which break down the amonia produced by the fish. The algae is using it instead!

However, doing a 50% water change is a good thing. Do them every five days until the problem goes away. It may take a few weeks. How big is the tank and how big is the arowana and the pleco?

Don't get discouraged, it WILL go away!

[sophia]

Thanks to both of you, for the advisement. The arrowana is probably about 7" and the pleco is tiny still, about 3" in a 29 gallon tank which is shared by a cory catfish and an amazon sword plant, I use a 330 Penguin filter. I replaced the filter media once since it all started and just rinsed out the media boxes and put them back in. I'll do another 50% water change tonight and see where that gets me, do you think I should treat the tank for bacteria? I've been putting that off because I don't like to medicate when it's not absolutely necessary, I have bio wheels and such in and I hate to lose that colony of good bacteria. The tank is over a year old and doesn't seem to be going through another new tank syndrome, it continually tests negative for ammonia and the Ph is balanced at neutral.

Oh well, going back to the changes! LOL

Again, thanks to both of you.

Perhaps a new algae eater, mine is lazy!

Tay

[Shane Tesser]

I remember seeing a picture somewhere here of your tank and i believe if memory serves me correctly yours is the one that is in a kitchen? lol, just a guess, hoping im right, sorry if im not. I agree with the above diagnoses of an algae bloom, or a bacterial bloom. I would keep doing the water changes personally. I had a freshwater tank that this happened to one time and it took me months to figure out that the combination of the coral sand in the tank and the other sand, i believe it was silica sand was the cause. The tank ran fine for the longest time and then boom, cloudy water. I figured out that the coral sand still had pieces of rotting shell inhabitants and it just took a real long time for them to break down. I know your frustration. Perhaps it could be in the substrate. Even gravel if it gets compacted enough can cause this, and even undergravel filters can sometimes clog and give you the same thing. Other than that, lets try and see why you would have a baterial bloom. Your feeding and water change habits seem correct, but the only thing that bothers my honestly is the fact that the p.h. in the tank is neutral. Neutral ph is very tricky. Not only to maintain, but also it seems to have a tendency to crash really easily. I think that this is really your problem. First off, make sure that this is suitable for your arrowanna species. There is several types as you know, and i couldnt thing of one that would be really suitable for this level off the top of my head. Are you using r.o. water to acheive this, or a chemical buffer. If is chemically done, turn off all equipment that churns the water. Ie filter, air pumps etc. Leave for a day and see if a thin film forms on the top of the water. If it does, this is your problem. If not, or if you dont chemically maintain the tank at all, bring the water in to the 6-7 degree range if possible, this is provided the water changes dont work. Now please, if you play with the ph, change very slowly over a couple of weeks. Either way, please let us know how it is going, or email us if you still have problems. If you cant reach me, Youkai, and Corr are more than knowledgable on the subject and can help easily. Shane.

[Lizzy]

I agree that you are having a bacterial problem. you need to get a stronger culture of bacteria going in that tank. I'm sure some will disagree with me, but the biowheeles suck! You have a large ammount of bio load in that tank with that arowana. They're as bad as goldfish and that means they are messy no matter how little they eat. I have a 22 or so inch silver arowana. Your tank is essentially too clean. Give cleaning a reast for a while. I would recomend looking into a filter with a better surface for beneficial bacterial growth. The Aqua Clear filters have a great sponge that has a lot of surface area for bacteria to live, and it never srops...like the biowheles stop turning eventually. Plus you are able to put a decent ammount of charcoal in the filter and replace it without destroying your bacteria. Even a canister filter or something that has a bio surface INSIDE the filter would be great.

I would highly recomend looking for a bigger tank for the arowana. The tank is way too small. Get something over 100 gallons. No offence intended, but I cringed when I read what you're keeping the arowana in. It's already outgrown the tank in my oppinion. They are an active fish and need space.

Get your water tested for any levels on Nitrite and Nitrate. That'll let you know if your tank is re-cycling again. Refer to the Nitrogen Cycle when you get your results. Let me know what happens.

Lizzy

[corr]

I agree, the bioload is high. And yes, there probably isn't enough surface area for the required (good) bacteria to grow. This makes for a very delicate situation. I second Lizzy's recomondation for an AquaClear. They have a large filter basket that is great for bacteria colonies. You'll need to get a larger tank anyway so why not increase the filtering in the mean time?

"Ph is balanced at neutral" means, to me, that it is at 7.0. That's perfect.

[Shane Tesser]

lol corr. I was hoping someone would challenge me on that. I didnt wright my response really well, so ill clarify it here. And you guys are right about the bio wheel, i hate them too. I use aquaclears for small tanks, but the time you get a proper tank large enough to house the arowanna, and they grow big fast....even the aquaclear 500 wont be big enough.

k, here now that ive slept and am more clear headed was what i was trying to say about the ph. i wont get into a whole lesson but ill just give some breif points. I was really worried about the ability to sustain the proper buffer at 7.0 and yes that is perfectly neutral water and yes, the majority of fish are perfect in 6.5 to 7.0 water but........

k, basic lesson on water. A ph of 7 is as corr stated neutral. If there is a measurement below 7. the water is said to be acidic (most amazon water fits into this category). If the ph is above 7 it is alkaline. Now the difference between one degree of ph is actually massive....well ten times, ie 6.0 is 10 times more acidic than 7.0.

So, why would shane be alarmed at a perfect 7.0 ph. Well this has to do what is call the buffering capacity....which is one of the most important and most over looked problems in a tank. Buffering capacity is basically the ability to keep the ph stable as acids or mineral bases are added. Thing of it like a sponge, it basically holds the changing of compouds in it, and as they change it soaks up. The problem is, that alot of people never establish a proper buffer. So what happens, is the buffer in the tank gets used up. And this cause a very rapid change in the ph as acids are added. Now very hard water has a strong natural buffer...until the composition of the water is changed by chemically treating it....or r.o. water, distilled water etc. I use hard water as an example because this is what the majority of homes have.

So, imagine tap water perfectly neutral....probably doubtful, but yes in some areas very possible. That would be definatly excellent water to host a large majority of different fish with no problem. And being directly from the local water table the natural buffer would obviously sustain perfectly...unless tampered with. Now unless you have an extremely expensive test kit, you will not be able to see the difference in .3 change in the ph. Or the water may read 7.0 but actually be something like 6.7. and a change of more than .3 in less than a weeks time can kill some fish.

So, lets say we chemically bring the water to a perfect 7.0. And thats what our test kit reads (or is able to read) As we have forced a rapid change in the p.h. of the water, there is only a very weak buffer. So when this buffer is used up, and it will probably change very rapidly the ph of the water. But since we are perfectly at 7.0, we are at greater risk as the water could go either way, and without a proper buffer, it could go there extremely fast....deadly fast infact.

So, how is the buffer measured. It is the kh scale in your test kit. Basically the higher the number....the most resistant to ph changes.

So what the heck does this have to do with a bacterial bloom Shane?.......Basically this. If you have a rapid change in the p.h. fish will either do one of three things. Become really stressed....or suddenly develop a disease...or eventually die! So what about those microscopic organisms in the water!!! Well same thing...or the opposite...now their conditions are just perfect...they have always been there....dormant somewhere in the tank, and you have just happened to have a slight change in the water chemistry. The fish aren't bothered, because it is such a small increase/decrease....but your bacteria, they get triggered, and boom....cloudy water...

I hope this make sense, lol, let me know if you have questions, or arguments, ive tried to make this as basic as possible, Shane.

[sophia]

Thanks Shane, for all the wonderful advisement. I see now that I should have followed my first intuition after having read your posts, and just pm'ed you. Very, very good advice and very well received. I see 'why' you're a moderator.

As to the PH, this is one of those rare occasions; and I realize how lucky we are, that the PH just comes out of the tap at 7.0 - and I have tested via 3 forms of test.

The tank went for nearly a year without a cloud problem. The fish has about 5 more inches to put on before I will be moving him to 75 gallon bowfront. I usually start all my baby fish out in smaller, less stressful environments. Just this cloudy water thing... blew my mind; and yes, that IS the tank you saw 'in the kitchen'. {G} I like to have something nice to watch while I 'have' to cook!

Again, I thought it was you I had read previously. Good advice without all the negative B.S. involved.

Thank you,

Tay

[corr]

Okay, I'm glad you cleared that up, Shane. LOL, I almost lost faith in you :p .

Yes, Kh is critical, especially in a high bioload tank and relatively low Ph. Keep up the water changes!!! :) Adding a small bag of argonite to the filter is a good way to bring the Kh up... try to bring it to at least 5 degrees.



I wish I had the patience to type as much as Shane, maybe I could be of more help around here... :D

[sophia]

He really does put a great deal of work into it doesn't he. It's good that he takes the time, most folks won't, but I do appreciate the help Corr. I had thought it was Shane's posts that I had read previously, but in all honesty, I didn't feel like reading them all again to be sure!

Tay

[reverendsterlin]

You would expect there would be some commercial type ionizer for this type problem but not being a tank person (least with that much water lol) I wouldn't have a clue.

[Shane Tesser]

Thanks for the kind words. I do put a fair amount of time into the site for several reasons. One is due to my close affiliation with the webmaster, who forced me to join in the beginning, lol, now im stuck! And of course for him, i want nothing more than to see the site successful. The second reason is that i know all too well how frustrating it can be to get info from time to time. Even some of the largest sites are often trying to be so diverse that they don't focus on one subject long, or hard enough to make sense...to answer the questions you really want to know. I have a pretty diverse, and long list of stuff ive kept over the years, and if i can pass up some help i do. If not, there is always another member who may know the answer. I just feel sometimes that too many people try and then fail and completely give up the entire hobby due to lack of education...or knowing where to obtain it, so out of frustration they call it quits. Id like everyone here to succeed in what ever they keep, and i think so far, everyone is. As far as being helpful, i think that the fellow members on our site all deserve credit. Corr for one, you should not say you wish you were more helpful....you have been extremely helpful. Every response ive ever seen you give has been right on the money and you expertise and experience shows very well with the pics ive seen of your tanks. So, before this turns into a love fest, cheer to you, and everyone else that takes the time to pop in and visit the little thread on the big site, Shane.

[sophia]

. "So, before this turns into a love fest, cheer to you, and everyone else that takes the time to pop in and visit the little thread on the big site, Shane." _quoting Shane


I don't think you have ' a love fest' to concern yourself with. I give credit where credit is due, it's that simple. I appreciate those who can 'discuss', 'debate' without debasing the person to whom they're speaking. It never ceases to amaze me how many people will seek to advise on the 'assumption' that the person to whom they are speaking must be a 'novice' or a 'know nothing' and thus they take upon themselves an air of 'surperiority' and respond in such a 'sanctomonius' manner as to make the original poster never want to post again because of sheer irritation and nothing else.

We own and moderate an e-list where I always try to show civility and respect no matter how much I disagree with the poster. This is not a sign of weakness IMHO, but a sign of maturity, for this reason I praised your ability to respond in this manner, mature adults are not abundant on the net whether you've noticed or not. So, before I finish this post, it was not the 'quantity of the advice' that I was praising, but the 'balanced response' that was given and nothing more because I am so tired of the god games people try to play on the net, megalomaniacal bunch of freaks that they are.

Tay

[corr]

Thanks guys but I was looking for any praise. I'll do my part the best I can and hope someone benefits from it. :)

Tay, what did you mean by "god games"? Playing God? Holier than thou attitude? Just curious, I've never heard that term before.

[sophia]

Yes Corr, i.e. "I am the God of all things snakes, birds, fish, religious, etc..." You find it in every forum on the web as in life. That's probably why I'm an anti-social deviate! LOL

Tay

[corr]

:D

[Lizzy]

I hope I didn't give that impression...the god games and such. If I have, it wasn't intentional...I'm just so used to dealing with idiots at work who have no clue about anything (they would try to keep that arowana in a bowl if they saw it as a baby). I have very difficult time seeing big fish in such a small tank too. Just one of my pet peves...no pun intended. Shane seems to be the most knowledgable fish guy around, so I am glad you are so happy with him. I'm still learning about the more exotic stuff, so I know if I post something wrong, I'll get nailed!!! He he! It's a learning process.
Anyways, if I was playing god games, it was unintentional.

[sophia]

Lizzy I appreciate that, this is a very hard medium by which to communicate, you have to do so much second guessing because you can't see the person's facial expressions. I appreciated all the information and advice, truly.

My mention of megalomania was in response to Shane's 'love fest' comment because anyone who knows me, knows that I'm very direct and compliments from me are earned, not given freely, I've never been one to 'a** kiss' for lack of a more acceptable term *G*. The manner in which Shane directed his responses were clear, concise and non-accusatory, without insinuation or any sense of redress and that was the reason for the complimentary nature of my post in regard to all that he had written, and honestly, I meant what I had said with regard to the fact that I originally meant to private message and ask him, but I'd had a hectic day and couldn't remember for sure if it was 'his' posts I had read previously. In essence, I didn't have time to go back and read 'all' the posts in the aqaurim forum to make sure, so I simply posted to see what answers I'd get. I also post like that to other forums to see who really knows what and who is willing to answer and share experiences. It's a means to know who you 'can' talk with and feel comfortable with.

While I agree with you that the 29 is far too small for a grown arrowana; it would literally stunt his growth and cause all kinds of health problems and physical defects, it is just a standard practice for me to start baby animals out in small enclosures to give them the security that they need. I have decided that since he is a black and will only get to 3' in length (if I'm lucky *G*), that I will be moving him into a 75 gallon Oceanic bowfront and equiping the tank with a Fluval canister filter, half the gravel required for the general fresh water tank, and one sword plant which I'll transplant from the original tank. I am also going to be giving him back his pleco (who I may trade because he's a lazy arsed fish!) and his cory cat and I'm looking at getting a Siamese Tiger. I'm thinking hard about recycling all the water from the present tank over several weeks, into the new tank and cycling that tank with a few goldfish which I can transfer to my mother's ornamental pond when I'm done, which is what I did to cycle the present tank. I know a lot of people think it's not necessary to cycle fresh water, but it's an expensive fish and I'd much prefer putting an expensive fish into a tank that has already experienced new tank syndrome and leveled off, with good biological growth already in place. I'm just paranoid most likely, but it's my preferred method.

You guys mentioned the bio wheels and while I prefer bio balls and other products to host bacterialogical colonies, I have to admit that I've learned a trick or two with those dang wheels. When they fill with goo, I don't wash them under running water and I don't scrub the fiber media, but I do put them down into a bucket of tank water and use a baby tooth brush to scrub gently around the pins to remove all the crud build-up (for lack of a better term) and so far (and I'm crossing my fingers here), that has worked pretty darn well.

So far I seem to be beating the clouding problem, in all the time I've kept aquariums I'd never had a clouding problem that tanin and water changes couldn't fix, so I was VERY frustrated when I posted to be sure. So I posted half enraged and definately in haste without clarifying what I had done and what I had not.

I have even thought about using the present 29 gallon to raise feeders once I move Hannibal to the new tank, but that dang fish is a fraidy fish, I can't get him to take worms or crickets because they wiggle and scare him, h*** the crickets rode around on his back like he was a horse, after three nights of trying to introduce a new food source to him and watching countless crickets fight for their lives and end up just going swimming! and having already been through this with worms, I gave up and set the crickets free!!! I keep attracting either neurotic pets or neurotic friends and I'm a very private person, so I wonder what the heck I have stamped on my forehead that only I can't see!!! Then again, maybe I'm neurotic as H*** and I just haven't owned that truth yet, who knows!! (G)

Anyhoo, I really appreciate the honesty and the good intentions Lizzy, this post has gotten so long that it may take to pages to view it as is, but I wanted you to know what I was posting in reference to. I try to be tactful and gracious when I post answers and questions about problems, and I tend to expect it of all others and don't often get it, when I do receive it, I make a point of complimenting it, that probably put Shane in an uncomfortable position and made him feel he was being put out there on the spot in some way, however, I'm just direct and honest and I've had to be, it's not only graciousness, it's a defense mechanism, long story that I won't go into here I promise! <G>


Tay

[Shane Tesser]

Lmao, im still looking up half the meanings in the dictionary. Tay you have an incredible way with words, i love reading your responses...i hope you write, if not, you really should....but if you do, id love to read some of your works, i wish i could be that eligant when i wriite, just kinda hard when you spend eight hours a day around mechanics and swearing truck drivers...i actually have to watch what i start typing out sometimes as im so use to the constant swearing, lol. You have made my day...and please send us some more arowana pics, i LOVE those things.

[sophia]

Awww For once I'm at a loss for words! Aren't ya glad! <G> and don't go cutting on yourself there Shane, you're no slouch with words to be sure.

Trucker huh? My dad was one for over 40 years, I could make sailors blush when you piss me off! <G>

I should have included

sophiagroup (http://www.sophiagroup.org)

Jon and I both have many articles on there and are 'trying' to write a book, we have be 'trying' for 6 years!!! LOL

Tay

[Shane Tesser]

Thanks, buy the way the love fest quote was actually to my compliment to corr for the work he has done here. I was worried that he didn't feel that he contributes, and its obvious that it is quite the opposite. I visited your site, and will return to do some more reading. I studied world religions and have a great interest in them....just alot to read at this time in the morning. The layout is absolutely fabulous though, excellent work! You must know the Reverend Sterling....if you don't i believe you two would have alot to discuss....he also has a very nice site, that ive also got to get back to finishing. I am a diesel mechanic, and trust me, have the uttermost respect for drivers....is a very difficult job, not to mention long and hard hours. So thanks again, and i did not feel on the spot with you compliments, you really did make my day, and i went to work....if you can believe it with a smile on my face. Thank you, Shane.

[sophia]

Thank you so much for the kind words with regard to the site, we have so much more work we need to do to it and so little time to accomplish it. Hopefully when winter comes on, I can get back to the Roman and Greek studies and update a bit on the Western Religions and the Philosophers, I have quite a bit I want to add to all of those and much, much, much that I want to add on Taoism and other Asian philosophies, there's just so much to do and only two of us to do all the research and writing and I have writings scattered to the four winds that need to be assimilated! OY and UG! Not to mention the editing of what's already there!!!

I'm glad I made someone smile yesterday, I swear when you see people on the group tearing other people down (threads to be left unmentioned), it just makes you want to turn all Hannibal the Cannibal on them, I understand and sympathize with Hannibal, there's many 'Rude' I'd like to kill myself, however I don't think I'd want to eat them, it would just give me massive indigestion to be sure!!! So to actually have a fruitful discussion where people come away happy with the content, now that's a great thing.

Ta ta
Tay (EG)