Frosted Ghost?

[Invictus]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd share a picture of Kitiara, a gorgeous and HUGE ghost corn snake I got from Mark IsBell. As she grows, a really interesting thing is happening to her saddles - they are getting these fades that resemble a frosted creamsicle corn... except that she is very much a ghost:

http://www.invictusart.com/images/Kitiara2.jpg
http://www.invictusart.com/images/Kitiara3.jpg

[Invictus]

Just thought I'd add - she doesn't look "huge" in and of herself, but when you consider that she's only about 6 months old, believe me... she's a big girl. She dwarfs all the other baby corns I have.

[Simon]

LOL
nice addition!!!
lovely ghost~
and yes you are really starting to get a nice collection of corn snakes~~~~

and she's 6 months old and she's huge!!!
My 6 month olds are still like hatchlings....hahaha
that is a great big fat ghost you have there!

[Invictus]

Thanks Simon. :) My corns are all very healthy, and pounding back fuzzies like they are going out of style, but this girl in particular just amazes us with her size! She was selected from among the offspring of some GREAT breeding stock though - Mark's adult ghosts are some of the nicest I've ever seen.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Wicked looking ghost guys. :)

[vanderkm]

Very pretty ghost - I will have to post some photos of her siblings I have. Which of Mark's females is she from - Beauty or Little Girl? Looks like there is some yellow starting on her chin as well. Our male and one female are just beginning tot get some on their necks - very pretty. Do you see much color difference in your male and female ghosts - ours are quite a bit different in amount of pink tones (boy has a lot more pink). They are beautiful snakes and we are really happy with the ones we got from Mark.

I believe the fading of the centre of the saddles is quite common in many color forms of cornsnakes without the influence of grey ratsnake hybridization that is usually designated by 'frosted' terms. I often don't see much difference between 'frosted' and regular corns in terms of color shading or frosting and think the term is often included to let people know they are buying a hybrid in the same way as 'creamsicle' is used for great plains rats intergrades. Hard to get much information on the corn intergrades and hybrids -

Regardless - very nice ghost, glad she is doing so well for you and thanks for sharing photo,

mary v.

[Katt]

I have heard and must agree, that the ghost morph is somewhat sexually dimorphic. The males tend towards much nicer colour. I'll post mine and show the huge difference I've seen.

[Invictus]

I have totally seen a difference in my little Ghost colony. I have 2.1, and the males are starting to get their fleshy tones in between saddles, whereas the female is still quite grey.

Mary - I don't remember for the life of me which female my little Kitiara was from. I know it was a Ghost/Ghost breeding, and was NOT the Ghost/Ghost clutch that yielded the snows. So, whichever one didn't have snow babies was this girl's clutch. Also, I'm aware that "frosted" usually implies the ratsnake hybrid, but I've seen it used to describe pattern before, and I was merely alluding that my ghost's pattern is similar. :)

[MouseKilla]

Ghosts are hypoamel and anery right? Still trying to sort all the names out. I have a snow but get ghost and blizzard mixed up when it comes to what traits they show (or don't as the case may be).

[Invictus]

Yes, Ghosts are Anery (no red) and hypomelanistic (reduced black). Blizzards are Anerythristic and Amelanistic, and hypo-xanthic. Some blizzards have flecks of yellow, but have no red or black pigment.

[MouseKilla]

So blizzards are only different from snows in that they are hypoxanthic explaining their appearent lack of pattern in comparison? Is that the same as anery type B(plus amel of course) or am I lost? What I'm trying to understand also is why this wouldn't be called just amel/anery/hypoxan. all these bloody names are just confusing and don't tell you what traits, as I said, are being shown or inhibited.

[vanderkm]

Blizzards are homozygous for both amelanism and Anery B (charcoal corn) and Snows are homozygous for both amelanism and Anery A (the more usual black and white corn). Anery A and B are inherited independently of each other so are not directly related or linked. Typically Anery B has less expression of yellow but it is not completely eliminated. Our blizzard corn has quite a bit of yellow outlining his saddles and some people market this variety as a 'lemon peel blizzard' - anything to coin a new name!

As Invictus indicates, ghosts are homozygous for hypomelanism and Anery A. When Anery B is combined with hypomelanism I believe it produces a Phantom - I think Simon has some of those.

Just to complicate things, it is becoming clear that there are a bunch of different hypo genes in corns, just as there are different anerys - so ghosts may be made up of different hypos with anery A and phantoms may be different hypos with anery B.

The names of morphs really are confusing and there is a lot of inconsistency with people developing new names for morphs that are already well established. Many of the corn breeders who first developed the lines are being suprised even now (with the hypo thing) so there is still tons to sort out with corn genetics. Much of what makes them so much fun to work with!

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

Is Anery B associated with axanthism? Is that why blizzards have less yellow than a snow? This stuff is so confusing. I imagine I'll spend the next several years reading and annoying people with dumb questions until I'm satisfied with what I know. Then I will create blasphemous freak snakes and sell them to the highest bidder! HA HA HA! Then we'll see who gets to make up the stupid names!

[Invictus]

According to Kathy Love, you're correct - the difference between Anery A and Anery B is that Anery B also includes Axanthism.

[vanderkm]

I want to be first on your waiting list for 'blasphemous freak' corns! Sounds like a must have color phase!!

mary v.

[Simon]

Mary is right again.
To make things look easier
We now have:
Amel
Anery A (the regular anery)
Anery B (Charcoal Anery)
Hypo A (regular hypo)
Hypo B (Translucent Hypo)
Hypo C (Dream Hypo This is kind of like the regular hypo. Haven't proven out yet)
Hypo D (Ultra Hypo)
Hypo E (Sunkissed Hypo)
There are properly more hypos and anerys and amels lurking around but don't think that we havve actually proven this out yet.

Here are some photos of the snakes that we have mentioned:
Amel:
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/p7659455e28830601394a85f319f764cf/fca30192.jpg">

Anery (Sorry this is an anery motley...don't know why I don't have photos of my anerys...lol):
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid71/pea51d846653f961fd064a4c9408adb8b/fb92c906.jpg">

Charcoal:
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid87/pbf9aa9a93ffd6d03a4245e20c85932e4/faa1d741.jpg">

Snow (with different colors)
Snow (regular white snows)
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p74b2924a24bfd37aba9cf0155d8f9178/fa65ab20.jpg">

Snow (Green Phase)
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p3512450382d252cdee3dd668ab6fcfbf/fa65ac89.jpg">

Snow (Pink Phase)
<img src="http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pd09cfc89f7fae00062af4f76424d5f74/fa65ade6.jpg">

Tried to take photos of the phantom...but it wouldn't sit still and it kept biting and pooping all over me....so didn't take it...hahaha will try again later~

Hope these photos explain better.

As you can see the anery a and anery b is really hard to tell the difference by looks. You'll really have to breed these two 'morphs' out to be certain which is which!

[MouseKilla]

Once again Simon's got one of everything to look at. You're right about the Anery A/B thing, I don't see much difference even in the amount of yellow. That green Snow is crazy, I've never seen one of those. Are the green and pink snows proven traits or are they just random occurances? All of this Hypo business means it's worse than I thought, I always thought that corn morphs were something that had been reduced to simple equations. It seems there is a lot left to learn for everyone and I have more catching up to do than I thought. This is another case of the more I learn the less I seem to know.

Mary,

You're first on the list when I hatch out my Phospherous Corns. I'm experimenting with weapons grade plutonium and corn eggs 2 weeks before hatching, they should be bright green and emit a small amount of light... maybe I should be wearing gloves or something... why do my teeth keep falling out? lol!

[Invictus]

Simon, you confuse me more and more every day.

How would you "prove out" those charcoals when all you would get is babies that STILL look like Anery A? How can you even say that those are charcoals? Did they tell you? If there is absolutely no distinguishing between them, how can you possibly say that your charcoals are not Anery A?

Here is a quote, once again, from Bill & Kathy Love's website:

This strain of black albino corn is far less common, and is one “ingredient” of making blizzard corns. They are almost totally axanthic, meaning they lack even the residual yellow pigment on their throats that’s typical in type A anerythristic specimens.

Note - they lack the yellow throats. Yours very much have yellow throats, yet you still insist they are charcoals. I'm not trying to bash your expertise here, Simon, but I think most people consider the Love's to be the world's foremost authorities on corn snake morphs. Not to mention every true charcoal I've ever personally seen has ZERO yellow, even around the throat.

So please explain to me, Simon, why yours are these miraculous Anery B's, even though they do not fit the description of what constitutes an Anery A/B distinction. According to the Love's, you don't have to "breed them out" to find out which is which. One has yellow, one doesn't. Very simple.

[reverendsterlin]

easy to prove out, anery A X anery B will give normals, anery A to non-het blizzard still normals, anery B to a non het snow and you get normals again, phantoms and ghosts can be used as well to prove them out. The hypo mess is beyond me an I heard there is a possible 6th hypo trying to get proved as well, and I think that both anery genes have and can give the frosted appearance to saddles but is more noticable in the charcoals. Problem is trying to prove 2 unknow single morph animals by breeding them together, get the same morph you know they are the same but still not which they, if you get normals you know they are different but still not which is which which takes at least a second breeding to a known animal or morph and why a bunch of folks use combo morphs like blizzard ect, blizzard or snow to either anery gives a definite answer as long as your combo morph isn't also het for the other. Example breeding my charcoal to my amel surprised me by showing the amel was het charcoal but mostly ruled out the male being het amel for lack of blizzards, charcoal also showed my normal motely to be het charcoal as well, I'll be breeding my charcoal to a hypo to see if it's possibly het hypo. Now I'll bred my ghost to the normal motley to see if any hypo is is there. Big problem with most multi hets is the years it takes to prove out parents and offspring even then you can only state phenotype of the animal without testing it over multiple breedings. this is why so many animals are sold as **% possible hets because by the time you tried all the combinations to a single possibly multi-het animal to prove or disprove it's genetics you've invested so much time and money into that selling it only comes at a loss. sorry this was so long winded but hope it shows why accurate breeding records and long term breeding projects are what makes experts like the love's and others, this is also why some collectors are willing to pay more for a known genetic line than for possible hets.

[MouseKilla]

Seems to be some disagreement here on what Anery B means.... if I understand correctly Anery A and B both cause no red to be shown but only type B may cause yellow to be reduced, but there is a dispute as to how much it is reduced... is that about right? Is there not an entirely seperate gene that controls the production of xanthin and therefore the presence of yellow colouration?

[reverendsterlin]

anery just means lacking the red pigment, A & B means the anery gene is located in a different area of the dna chain and are not compatible for breeding purposes. Anery B is sometimes considered to also carry a phenotypical axanthism (not proven genetic could well be only the different location of the B strain on the dna chain) my charcoal in not axanthic he has a tiny bit of pale yellow on the bottom lip edge and 1-2 inches down the neck but much less than any Anery A I see. same as the sharp and kahl strains of albino boa, they do not produce albinos when bred together and have a slightly different color tone that so far is only attributed to their different location on the dna strand. the hypos are all hypo but different strains located in diffent positions give some color variation and breeds true. hope this helped you more

[marisa]

I was under the assumption that most people totally agree almost all Anerys B or A can have amounts of yellow.

Go ask on the big corn forum, you'll see. Almost everyone has an Anery A with yellow and Anery Bs with just as much. Also some people with both anerys missing yellow entirely. Kathy love is correct but that is by no means a set in stone standard as we have seen lately.

They don't tell you what they are, but you can easily know anery b from anery A by simply looking at what the parents were. Other than that, if you buy a misc anery you'll have to breed the trait out to see which it is in most cases today. The lines are all being blurred.

Marisa

[marisa]

This is by FAR the best genetics site for cornsnakes available IMHO and explains FAR more than Kathy Loves book, or anyone elses website. It also mentions Anery B usually lacking yellow, but again not set in stone. This person is a great source of genetic information and if anyone is really curious I am sure shooting off an email about this topic would get a good response.

http://www.serpwidgets.com/cornsnakes/Morphs/morphs.html

I'd also like to point out almost all Blizzards have yellow pigment as they mature. I have seen plenty without it, but TONS with it.
Marisa

[vanderkm]

I can't add much more to the comments already on anery A and B except to support what's been said.

Invictus - I am interested in whether the charcoals you have seen have been from a breeder here in western Canada. I have been trying to locate some but with no luck without bringing them in from the states or waiting for Simon to produce some! I would be very interested in getting in touch with anyone who has charcoal (anery B) corns around here especially if they don't have the yellow on the throat.

thanks,

mary v.

[Invictus]

Mary - All of the ones I've seen have been in the states as well.

[MouseKilla]

Serpentwidgets is a great site, the very small amount of knowledge I have about corn genetics is mostly from that site (and some very helpful people on this site). I also read there about the occurance of hypoxanthism associated with Anery B. What I'm not understanding is if xanthin is produced by the same gene or mechanism that produces erythrin or if Anery B simply effects both the production of erythrin and xanthin in some other way...

[marisa]

Guys, could you imagine if there was as many Anery genes as there are hypo popping up now?!?!?! OMG! LOL lets hope not. haha

Marisa

[vanderkm]

Invictus - rats - I was hoping for a chance to get some locally! Also don't you just love where your original post has taken us!

Marisa - might really be the case - seems there are some who would make the case that lavenders and caramel (butters) are really just alternate forms of anery. Not an arguement I have seen put forward many times, but something to think about (and complicate our lives!)

Mousekilla - I don't believe there is a clear link established to the effect that Anery B has on red or yellow pigment development but the types of pigment are quite different and develop in different ways within the skin so I think it would be unlikely that is it the same mechanism. The possibility exists that Anery B may be a closely linked pair of genes that do not separate, rather than even being a single gene. I don't think it is clear whether butter is a hyper-xanthic effect yet either - the yellow influence seems less understood than the black and red. Really fun stuff!

mary v.

[reverendsterlin]

thought I would add a couple of pics
this is my adult male charcoal an looking closely at his cheek hopefully you will see the yellow with a matching patch on the other side, a Zuchowski produed animal
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272PICT0008_WEB-med.jpg
back to the original purpose of the thread this is his saddles showing the frosted effect I have noticed on most charcoals I can remember
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272PICT0011_WEB-med.jpg
this is my adult female blizzard showing her yellow again matching on the opposite side, this is a Love female

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272PICT0016_WEB-med.jpg
this is the same snakes back, even in full sun no even faint saddles show
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272PICT0017_WEB-med.jpg
but there are many other examples out there with much more yellow

[Simon]

Invictus,

LOL...sorry for bring this post way out of topic....hahah
but anyway
Charocals can have a lot of yellow.
Here is a link to the charcoal of Rich Zuchowski's.

http://69.57.150.235/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16166&cat=250&page=2

From left to right the fifth picture you can see a charcoal with tons of yellow on it.
At frist we all thought that charcoal reduces the amount of yellow that is going on the snake. But as time proves out we're actually wrong. Charcoals can have yellow. Some of them even with a lot of yellow marking on them too. So go figure.....
These genes thing is really making us rethink of a lot of things. The more we know, the less we really know about the genetics of corn snakes. It's very confusing...but that's what I like about them....lol

As you can see even in blizzards they can tend to have yellow on them too. Thus again proving that charcoals can have yellow on them so appearance doesn't tell anything at all. To be honest....the whole genetic thing is confusing...not just the anery a/b thing. As mentioned above, the lavenders and caramels are also 'considered' or at least talked or mentioned to be another morph of anery. Breeding a lavender het anery and anery het lavender there should be a chance of anery lavender (whatever you call this 'morph') But instead of this poping out....we see regular lavenders (???? why is this???) No idea at all.....that is why when we sometimes uses the corn snake projector (from Serp) we see a thing called "masking' that is one gene dominating the other. But at the same time...those genes were suppose to be recessive genes so one shouldn't dominate the other and should have shown both genes out in the phenotype but no....nature wants to play games with us to make us more confused the more we breed.

Isn't this fun~

[vanderkm]

In contrast to Rev's gorgeous, almost pure white blizzard, this guy has quite a bit of yellow. This pic is a couple months old and the yellow borders on his saddles have intensified even more now - yet there is no doubt he is a blizzard.

Reverendsterlin - love that charcoal - gorgeous snake - I really have to get a couple of those!

mary v.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63boo_m_resized.jpg

[MouseKilla]

Well I'm more confused now than when we started... Looking at that pic if someone were to ask me I would say it was a Snow. Before this thread the Blizzards I have seen didn't show yellow, if anything they had a pink/purple kind of white colour and no visible pattern... maybe I was looking at some other morph altogether...

[vanderkm]

The white on this guy is quite purple, and was more so when he was under a year of age - hard to capture real color in photos - a lot depends on the influence of background color. People also tend to show off the 'best' examples of a color variety rather than ones that are considered less desirable. Again see Rich's comments on the variety at http://www.serpenco.com/cultivars/blizzard.html. Don at Southmountain also has some photos that show the yellow chin, but the bodies on his are quite white
http://www.cornsnake.net/new/cornprice.php3

I can't find the reference I had to someone who was trying to increase the yellow in the blizzards. The xanthic expression is really not as clear-cut as many of the other genes.

mary v.

[reverendsterlin]

another thing to remember is that most animals are sold with minimum knowledge of the genetics of the animal, someone breeds a couple of normal het charcoal/or some morph containing charcoal+het anything else will sell their animals phenotypically, after all a charcoal is a charcoal. I do not know of anyone that has spent time with high yellow charcoals and blizzards trying to prove out the animal's full genetics and it could as easily be some type of co-dominate effect in some lines. Corns are the worst snakes to play genetics with (but also the most fun), so many snakes bred by so many people most with little knowledge of proper recording methods or genetics(just ask your local petstore to provide you with the animals records). Even large well known breeders will sell big lots of their none keeper animals to petstore without giving any information about what breeding 'experiments' produced the animals. Buying direct from well known producers can usually get you that information, especially if they are cutting edge morph developers keeping extensive records to be able to reproduce new things at will(this is why inline-breeding is so often used). Buy an animal and understand genetics and in 8-10 years of diligent breeding/crossing you can have a pretty good idea of an individual's true genetics, but until then what to do with the offspring, keep them all, kill them all, start them on their own proving projects, or sell them to recoup some of your expenses? This is why there will probably never be a 'final answer' for corn genetics.

[reverendsterlin]

rereading my above post brought to mind a post long ago on that other site when some kid was saying he was going to produce some quintupal hets, I didn't have the heart to tell him that it could easily take 100+ offspring to produce one single true 5 way het and that it was probably going to take 20+years to produce and prove, including having to locate genetically pure animals of both sexes to use to prove with. A neat trick if he could do it, 5 females double clutching every year, constant renewal of genetically pure males and females to keep up with the exponentially growing breeding group, housing and feeding 100+ new animals every year, and starting year 2 on(if his original animals were breeders at time of purchase) 1000-100,000+ new animals a year, and gigs upon gigs of records that would need constant cross referencing. Bet you that would have smoked his pipe dream lol.

[MouseKilla]

Now that we seem to have hijacked this thread completely I might as well go ahead and ask if anyone has a template for the type of breeding/husbandry records you're talking about? I've tried to keep some records in a date book before but I'm not quite sure what statistics I should be tracking and the more animals we aquired the harder it bacame to keep up with the records. The records were hard to make any use of so I abandoned them. I think the card-per-creature method is probably the way to go I just don't quite know what they would look like... I guess it would keep track of things like dates of feedings, maybe weight and number of prey items, shed dates, length and weight of animal, stuff like this. I'm just not having any success at sorting the info efficiently.

[reverendsterlin]

I use snake tracker but find Brian Gollmer's site usually down, I do have a copy of this free download that might fit as an e-mail attach. there are other pay programs out there as well.

[vanderkm]

Very interesting points Rev - especially with reference to what becomes of the excess snakes produced through all the efforts to prove out genes and develop lines. Was easier to play god with genes in mice populations (I had a lot of different breeding programs going on there) when I knew all the excess could go for feeders. Especially hard decisions about what to breed with species like corns that have quite large clutches.

Mousekilla - Tim Cranwill has an excel program in his breeder forum that he uses. It looked quite good to me and I would be using it but I am lucky in that my husband is a detail person and keeps all our records. We track feeding, sheds and breeding and I will be including weights as soon as I get a decent scale. With as many as we have now, I am too old to rely on my memory for this stuff!

mary v.

[Simon]

Originally posted by vanderkm
With as many as we have now, I am too old to rely on my memory for this stuff!

mary v.

LOL....count me in!
I never remember anything....and I do mean anything....geeze...I am getting old...all my hair on my head is falling off.....lol...

Anyway what Rev just said is pretty true. and trust me....feeding 1000s of babies and knowing that maybe 30% of them don't eat (either non feeders, scenters, or deformed with kinks or whatever reason) then you'll have yourself 300 babies to force feed. After a few times of force feeding 300 then you see some kicking in and start chomping on pinkies. But then at the end they finally say that htey don't want to live anymore and just dies for no reason...kink of kills your heart when they do that. Then after a while you look at your records again and teh one that dies is actually one of the most important snake that you have that has either multiple hets or a rare morph. LOL....isn't this always fun~

With the amount of corn breeders around and tons of people breeding and not exactly knowing what they really have is always a pain in the butt. So that is why we should buy from big breeders. At least people that kind of know what they are doing and have great record keepings. People like Rich, Don and Kathy have really good record keeping ways and all three of them know what they are doing. They too are people, so there is no way that they're right all the time. As trail and error plus time they too find out that some of their things that they think are correct are actually wrong. Like the charcoals for insance, we all thought that the charcoals were corns that lack yellow. But as time tells...we're actually wrong. But before we know that we're wrong, some other stupid freak in the world decides that a charcoal sells more. So what he/she does is to sell something that looks like a charcoal for 10x more than the original anery a so he can get some $$ into his pocket.

Once again...it's always the more we know, the less we actually know~
sigh...

[Invictus]

Well, getting back to my original reason for posting this thread (not that I'm not enjoying the rest of the conversation! hehehe), here's a comparison pic from the day I brought her home until now.

Then:

http://www.invictusart.com/images/Kitiara1.jpg

Now:

http://www.invictusart.com/images/Kitiara3.jpg

It's amazing how much lighter she is now. In the first pic, you can see the blushing starting to appear on her saddles, but now they are VERY prominent. I'm so looking forward to seeing what she'll look like as she matures. :)

[MouseKilla]

Good for you Invictus, snatch the thread back! You can't have people running around derailing your conversation. LOL! That is a crazy transformation though, was it totally unexpected?

Mary & Rev.,

Thanks, I'll check out both of those sources. I'll probably make my own in the end, I just want to get an idea about what format to use.

[gonesnakee]

Holy Genetics Batman, now I remember why I just usually call them Corns & don't bother with any "fancy handles" LOL. Ghost is looking good Ken.
For the which Mother question (you & Mary V) well Beauty "throws" Snows out (last 2 seasons), but Little Girl did this year also. Both girls are bred to the same 2 males so the whole Snow thing has to do with which male "nails" em & they are both bred to both yearly so who really knows which male is the one causing Snows from the Ghost to Ghost breeding.
Ken you purchased 2 males from "L.G." a snow & a ghost & 1.1 ghosts from "Beauty" if that helps at all.
Anyhow THX for the comments on my stock people. Mark I.
P.S. I just read things again so if thats the female, Beauty is the mother & she is the lightest of all the breeding stock I have & she lacks the yellows that the rest of them have. If that little one turns out like her mamma, you'll be laughing. :w

[Invictus]

I'm sure hoping so Mark!

MouseKilla - It was half expected. I selected her from Mark's stock specifically for her head pattern, lighter color, and saddle blushing. I figured her saddles would blush a bit more, but not as much as they have. I sure wasn't expecting her to completely dwarf the rest of the corns though. But the great thing about this particular morph is that the hypomelanism can cause anything to happen. They just keep getting lighter as they get older, and eventually the grey in the saddles fades out to a gorgeous flesh tone. They're just beautiful animals at any age. One of my favorite morphs of corns.

[MouseKilla]

They are definitely very cool! I must try to find some simillar stock out this way. This thread's accidently become a big plug for that snake's breeder but the idea of shipping a corn snake across the country doesn't particularly appeal to me, especially if I'm on the receiving end.lol! The shipping cost, the hassle of going to Pearson Airport... I've never done it but I doubt I will ever have shipped to me what I can get locally but here I go again running away with the thread, I can't be helped.