Stoping burns from Heating Lamps

[Vengeance]

What is the best way to stop a snake from getting burned by the lights? I'm in the middle of setting up the cage and I'm finding the Plexi Glass lid very Hot too the touch and I'm worried that if the snake ever makes it up and touches the lid that he is going to burn himself. I know other people put the lights directly on the wire top which I did, but it melted the plexi glass a bit because it was so hot. I have since suspended the lights just above the cage to stop that from happening. So what do the people who use heating lights do in order to prevent their snake from burning himself?

Just as a side note before this starts another 11 page post, the following answers are not helpful.

1) Get a Rubbermaid
2) Get an UTH (I already have one it doesn't provide enough heat, I'm looking into getting a stronger one)
3) Stop using lights

If you are going to reply with any of those answers, don't bother I've already heard it all in the last thread.

Thanks in advance

Vengeance

[foman]

Try a lower watt lightbulb,even a low wattage bulb can give off a good amount of heat.

[Vengeance]

Tried using a 100W bulb for the Hot side, couldn't get it past 87 even with the UTH, I found I needed a 150W bulb to get it to 90. But im still useing the 100W bulb on the cooler side of the tank.

[daver676]

Well I'm assuming your using the 50 gallon right? Well, all I can say is that in order for me to properly heat my 15, I use a 100W infrar-red (?) bulb. It is more than adequate, and I leave it on 24/7. This might do the trick for one side. For a tank that big, I don't think you can get away with using an everyday 100W bulb. Try a 100-150 watt reptile basking bulb. It can concentrate more of it's heat downward. You are using a reflective dome type fixture right? If not, get one. Also you may have to get a space heater in order to raise the room temperature.

And make sure the fixture is OUTSIDE the cage. Then you have no worries of the snake burning itself.

[elevation24]

How are you measuring your temperatures?

[Big Mike]

Make sure you are measuring the temp right on the floor of the enclosure...over the UTH and under the lamp.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well, to state the obvious.... <b><u>DON'T</u> use a lamp</b>. Then you'll never have to worry.... buy a heat pad and save your self the trouble and your snake the inevitable burn.

But you don't want good advice, you just want whatever will make YOU happy.....

[Vengeance]

Actually if you can provide me with an example of an UTH that will adequately heat my enclosure I'd be more then happy to use it. I bought this one thinking it would be enough

http://www.superpet.com/shoppingcart%20database/www/showitem.pl?prodid=5567

But the temp never gets high enough. Too measure temps I am using this

http://www.theallergyreliefcenter.com/store/moreinfo2.cfm?Product_ID=74

Only thing I could find with the Hygrometer as well as Thermometer.

I'm going to pick up a temp gun this friday, the one being advertised on this site, so that should help as well. But if you can suggest a better UTH that will keep the tank adequately heated I'd be more then happy to use it, may have to change substrate which is no big deal either.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Not sure. I use heat tape andI control the temps myself and the range is pretty good....

[Weather1]

That is the UTH I use. It keeps the substrate temp at 85-90. Just place the temp gauge right on the substrate and you will see that your temps are higher then you think.

[maiden_canada]

hey cranwill it would have been nice if you said not to use a lamp when 10people called me an idiot for saying that...LOL..but anyways since you insist on using a lamp uth and tank, try using a low wattage heat bulb inside the enclosure like 25watt, and put a little caging thing around it, cover the roof with a damp towel also to keep some heat in

[maiden_canada]

oh yeah, make sure to measure the GROUND TEMP not air

[Will]

Even though this violates 'rules' 2 & 3... :)

Forget about lights. I played around with them when I first started out too, and I was left with half a dozen different wattage bulbs that I still have in a drawer and temps that were hard to control.

First off, is your thermometer able to measure surface temps(does it have a probe, I don't see one), or does it just measure the air temp...?

If it just measures air temp, a UTH will never reach the temps you want, since to heat the air to the mid to high 80's, the surface will more than likely be way too hot for their liking. Since Balls live on the surface, not up in the air, you want to heat the surface and don't worry about the air temps. Belly heat(heat coming from the bottom aids in digestion as well.

If it can't read the surface temp, run to Walmart(or a similar store) and buy one with a remote probe. Attach your probe to the surface of the glass tank, don't measure on top of the substrate - a lot of snakes(I assume Balls are similar) will bury themselves under the substrate more than they will stay on top, so the glass temp is more important.

Any UTH should easily be able to get the surface in excess of 100F, which is obviously too hot for a BP, plus eventually the glass will crack if you don't control the temperature(not good :)). In fact, I use that exact brand of UTH and it has served me well.

Next thing you need to do is run out to your local Home Depot or similar store and ask around the lighting department for a plug-in dimmer(or go to the petstore and buy a rheostat, but you'll pay more and it does the same thing) if they need more description, you use them to plug in and dim reading lamps.

Plug your UTH into that and use it to adjust the temp accordingly, no worries.

[daver676]

I would think that with an enclosure than big, you would need some type of heat lamp just to keep the ambients at the proper temps. I guess we'll find out....

[daver676]

Originally posted by Will
Attach your probe to the surface of the glass tank, don't measure on top of the substrate - a lot of snakes(I assume Balls are similar) will bury themselves under the substrate more than they will stay on top, so the glass temp is more important.


This all depends on what substrate your using, and whether your snake will actually burrow in it. Did you ever think that the only reason your snake burrows under the substrate is because thats where it's warm enough. If the temperature on the glass is 95, then the temperature on top of the substrate (were the snake is) could be much lower, depending on type of substrate and the ambient enclosure temp. Something to think about....

This may also be helpful. (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31334)

[Vengeance]

I'm going to assume that since the Unit I have does not have a probe that it is taking temps from the air and not from the ground. I guess will have to wait till I get my Temp gun tommorow to figure out what the temps are on the ground.

To fix my burning problem I suspended the lights above the cage, the plexi glass top is still warm to the touch but I am able to leave my hand on the top without burning myself, I assume that should take care of that problem.

For substrate I use this

http://www.superpet.com/shoppingcart%20database/www/showitem.pl?prodid=5763

Once I have the Heat Gun I'm sure I'll have a much better idea on what my actual tempatures are like.

Thanks for the info.

[Tigergenesis]

Since I too use a 50 gallon (breeder tank) I'll tell you what I use:

I have a sliding screen lid.

I use a Repti-Therm UTH (8"x18") set on a Rheostat. In order to keep temps right on the warm side I have the Rheostat set to the absolute lowest setting or it gets to hot.

Lizard Liner Substrate

I use infrared lights on the cool side of my tank (100watt during summer & 160 watts in winter) housed in hood light fixture (otherwise my cool side seems to get too cool). I also use a low wattage (15 watt) moonlight bulb.

I monitor temps with a single probe hygrometer/thermometer - the probe measures temp on the warm side and the unit sits in the tank and measures both temp and humidity on the cool side. My BP is unable to get under the substrate so I rest the probe on top of the Lizard Liner.

I'm able to maintain temps of 90-92 warm side & 80-82 cool side during the day. The temps drop 2 degrees on each side at night.

To maintain humidity I put duct tape on the screen covering most of the top except where the lights are and use a Tropic-Aire Humidifier & Air Exchanger attached to an air pump. Humidity stays between 60-64% w/o any spraying. I only have to refill the unit with water maybe once a week.

Hope this helps.

:)

[daver676]

Originally posted by Tigergenesis


To maintain humidity I put duct tape on the screen covering most of the top except where the lights are :)

Now THAT is an idea! Thanks!

[sapphire_moon]

Ok I use both UTH and lamps. If you are using plexiglass on top of your tank.......how well is your ventilation?

Try cutting part of the plexi glass off and makeing a screen part over it. Don't know how you would do it.....but it's just an idea. Also put a temp probe on the very bottom over the UTH....it is amazing how hot they really are......hope this helped.

Oh if you are still having problems you could try using a ceramic bulb. But from what I've heard ceramic heaters could dry out the enclosure, so be sure to keep an eye on your humidity if you do decide to use a ceramic bulb.

[Vengeance]

Ventalation should be ok with the Plexi Glass lid, I drilled about 200 holes at about a 45o Angle so that the hummidity wouldn't escape as quickly. To insure that the snake wouldn't just push the Plexi glass lid off and escape on top of the plexi glass I have a wire top. What I originally did was placed the lights directly on the screen top, but thats when the lid melted and warped a bit. So I guess I made a mistake thinking that there would be enough space between the plexi glass lid and the wire top.

[Soul_Reaper]

So far what i've been using for both my snakes is a heat pad on the right side, where the burrow is and the heat lamp on the left side just above the water dish. Having the heat lamp above the water helps a lot with humidity as well, because water evaporates, therefore it creates humidity.

And i also have a room heater in the basement for two reasons, one is because i sleep there and it gets cold, two: It also helps with the warming of the enclosure.

So far these methods have worked perfectly.

[mykee]

Why a UTH and a heat lamp? If the UTH is set at the correct temperature, there really is no need for a heat lamp.

[Vengeance]

Well because the Digital thermometer that I was useing didn't have a probe, so when I thought the temps were not high enough that was the ambiant air temp, not the actual surface. I'm picking up a temp gun tonight so I will be able to get a better idea of what my actual surface temps are. But with just an UTH my ambiant air temp is no where near close to what it needs to be so I'm going to need the lamps still I think, but I'll just use that home made rheostat that I saw posted in the enclousre forum to adjust the power levels.

[Invictus]

I use lamps in several enclosures, and have never once had a problem getting temperatures to where they need to be. I use 60 watt light bulbs, and it gets the basking area into the 90s, and about 80 degrees ambiently throughout the whole cage. This whole "Don't use lamps, they suck" thing seems to be to be another one of those trendy opinions that have no real weight whatsoever. Lamps have been used for heating for decades in this hobby, because they do work. You do have to be careful with over-ventilating though. If you use a screen top, heat AND humidity are two good reasons to block off at least half of the top. Remember, lamps create ambient heat - the laws of diffusion will cause this heat to dissipate into the surrounding cooler areas. Blocking off most of the top will still allow good ventilation, but will trap a lot of the heat inside.

The reason why people recommend UTHs is because the heat is localized, and constant. So yes, they are better, but dismissing lamps as a heating method and saying they suck is both wrong and unfair.

I hope you are pleasantly surprised when you get your heat gun. UTHs get VERY warm (I've measured the surface temps of those things around 130 in some cases), and are very good for the snake. But by all means, use the lamp to raise the ambient temp if you wish.

[Soul_Reaper]

Originally posted by Invictus
I use lamps in several enclosures, and have never once had a problem getting temperatures to where they need to be. I use 60 watt light bulbs, and it gets the basking area into the 90s, and about 80 degrees ambiently throughout the whole cage. This whole "Don't use lamps, they suck" thing seems to be to be another one of those trendy opinions that have no real weight whatsoever. Lamps have been used for heating for decades in this hobby, because they do work. You do have to be careful with over-ventilating though. If you use a screen top, heat AND humidity are two good reasons to block off at least half of the top. Remember, lamps create ambient heat - the laws of diffusion will cause this heat to dissipate into the surrounding cooler areas. Blocking off most of the top will still allow good ventilation, but will trap a lot of the heat inside.

The reason why people recommend UTHs is because the heat is localized, and constant. So yes, they are better, but dismissing lamps as a heating method and saying they suck is both wrong and unfair.

I hope you are pleasantly surprised when you get your heat gun. UTHs get VERY warm (I've measured the surface temps of those things around 130 in some cases), and are very good for the snake. But by all means, use the lamp to raise the ambient temp if you wish.


Right on.

[jfmoore]

I could be mistaken, but in all the many posts in threads initiated by Vengeance, I’ve not seen any reference by anyone posting (Vengeance included) to the temperatures in the rooms where they keep their snakes. That’s kind of like asking for information on how to heat your home without specifying whether you live in Toronto or Los Angeles. Okay, slight exaggeration.:) But do you get my point? Some people (especially renters) live where the overnight temperatures inside may drop to the low 60’s or cooler; others keep their homes in the high 70’s. That makes a huge difference in the wattage you need to raise the temps even 4 or 5 degrees either in your snake room or in the snake cage alone. And that holds true whether we keep our pythons in Rubbermaids, aquaria or plastic snake cages. We can all agree on that, right? Individual situations guide your solutions!

Vengeance - You are gonna love your infrared temperature gun! They are SO helpful. I could go on at major length about how cool they are (kind of like TIVO), so I better stop on that subject now.

Originally posted by mykee
Why a UTH and a heat lamp? If the UTH is set at the correct temperature, there really is no need for a heat lamp.
See my paragraph #1 above for a partial answer. See the photo below for an example of the all-too-common result for ball pythons when the air temperature is too low and the belly heat supplied is too high.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/507/3573Ball_Burn-med.jpg

Photo courtesy of Stephen L. Barten, DVM, Vernon Hills Animal Hospital, Mundelein, IL. Sorry, I do not know what the outcome was for this animal.

-Joan

[mykee]

Correct me if I'm wrong but MOST people have a hide over their UTH or heat tape, right?, which increases the air temp. in the hide that these balls spend 95% or more of their life in, right? Is that not sufficient? It seem to me that a heat lamp in a BP enclosure is USUALLY trying to compensate for poor husbandry, rooting from either an over-vented top, lower room temps, glass enclosures, etc. If your husbandry were dead on, as it should be (takes some time to play around, but take the time to do it) there would be no need for a heat lamp, the UTH in a PROPER enclosure would suffice. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure for OTHER species of snakes they are almost mandatory, but this is a bp forum right?

[foman]

That is just Brutal, poor snake.

[mykee]

Joan, allow me to correct you, what that picture shows is terrible husbandry. Whether it's too much heat, not enough humidity, non-escape-proof enclosures, the list goes on, that snake had it coming from having a stupid owner. Also, I completely agree with you that each case is unique in it's heating requirements. However, you also grouped glass aquariums and rubbermaids together when referring to heat retention. I have one large 75 gallon aquarium set-up and many many rubbermaids in racks, and the heat retention is MUCH better in the rubbermaids than in the aquarium. Again, my case is unique, as is everyone else's.

[Vengeance]

Yep, you guys were right, my basking spot is in the high 90's without a light on and just an UTH. Came home after getting the temp gun and had the light on, the substrate was past the 110oF mark. Makes me very glad I'm doing all this first and getting the snake later.

I've got to but a new piece of plexi glass unfortunatly, the lid I made got warped to hell because of the high heat and melting that happned to it. D'oh! oh well, live and learn.

Going to have to build another one of those home made rheostats to controll the UTH, replace the plexi glass lid, get 3 - 4 hides made, and a water bowl and I should be all set.

I guess my last question is, is the ambiant air tempature just as important as the surface tempature? For exapmle, I keep the surface temps where they are supposed to be, 90 - 92 for hot and then 80 - 85 for the cool side surface temp, should I be worried that the ambiant air temps are going to be a bit lower or is the surface temps what I should care about most?

[Vengeance]

To be honest I haven't really checked my Air temps in the room. I rent a basment apt and don't have controll over the thermostat. We have space heaters but barely use them. I guess I should test what the temp is around the cage.

Originally posted by jfmoore
I could be mistaken, but in all the many posts in threads initiated by Vengeance, I’ve not seen any reference by anyone posting (Vengeance included) to the temperatures in the rooms where they keep their snakes. That’s kind of like asking for information on how to heat your home without specifying whether you live in Toronto or Los Angeles. Okay, slight exaggeration.:) But do you get my point? Some people (especially renters) live where the overnight temperatures inside may drop to the low 60’s or cooler; others keep their homes in the high 70’s. That makes a huge difference in the wattage you need to raise the temps even 4 or 5 degrees either in your snake room or in the snake cage alone. And that holds true whether we keep our pythons in Rubbermaids, aquaria or plastic snake cages. We can all agree on that, right? Individual situations guide your solutions!

Vengeance - You are gonna love your infrared temperature gun! They are SO helpful. I could go on at major length about how cool they are (kind of like TIVO), so I better stop on that subject now.


See my paragraph #1 above for a partial answer. See the photo below for an example of the all-too-common result for ball pythons when the air temperature is too low and the belly heat supplied is too high.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/507/3573Ball_Burn-med.jpg

Photo courtesy of Stephen L. Barten, DVM, Vernon Hills Animal Hospital, Mundelein, IL. Sorry, I do not know what the outcome was for this animal.

-Joan

[mykee]

Stupid lag time......

[mykee]

Double post, only one comment. Read on....

[mykee]

Vengeance, if you're air temps are in the 80's you're rockin'. I would just keep an eye on that substrate temp, if there were a snake in there, woulda' been some serious damage done.

[jfmoore]

Originally posted by mykee
Joan, allow me to correct you, what that picture shows is terrible husbandry. Whether it's too much heat, not enough humidity, non-escape-proof enclosures, the list goes on, that snake had it coming from having a stupid owner.


I tend to choose my written words very carefully, son, so there is nothing here for you to correct.

My point in my prior post was that without knowing the specific conditions Vengeance had to work with, it was sheer speculation to tell him he needed X-watt light bulb or that there was “no need for a heat lamp” at all. No one knew at that time whether the room in which he kept the cage was 60 degrees or 80 degrees!

Regarding the burn case, I think anyone with eyes to see would agree with you that “terrible husbandry” was involved. Duh. However, even though the contributing factors which led to this outcome may have been multiple, primary was having a too-hot heat source in a too-cool cage that left the python no other place to try to stay warm (no one really knows why reptiles allow themselves to be grievously burned like this. Of course, they can feel pain). And although I don’t have a clue as to the I.Q. of its owner, I think we can be safe in speculating that he was not a "stupid owner,” as you described him, but an ignorant one. There is a big difference.

-Joan

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by mykee
Vengeance, if you're air temps are in the 80's you're rockin'. I would just keep an eye on that substrate temp, if there were a snake in there, woulda' been some serious damage done.

Yea I know, that's why im making sure everything is setup right before I put anything into this cage.