Ok, whats going on????

[BigPlaya]

My veiled(Probably 8 or 9 inches from head to tail) is walking around shooting his tongue around at NOTHING. Its like he's eating but theres nothing to be had. He has been doing this for a few days not that I have noticed before but I have already fed and watered him. What is he doing this for? Im baffled.

[Bartman]

No expert but i would guess as long as hes eating fine and drinking fine its no biggy...hope its noting serious! good luck eh

[gfisher2002]

??? not sure. Wait till trace reads the thread. She might know.

[johnnym1972]

Chameleons sometimes exhibit that kind of behaviour when they have parasitic worms in the ocular cavity behind their eyeballs. You can sometimes see this as little squiggly lines under their eyelids that move and wiggle. Sometimes they will exhibit inflamed eyes, or bulging eyes, but not always. I hope that you have the ability and the resources to get to a Veterinarian, because otherwise you may end up with a dead chameleon. I hope that I didn't offend you in any way. :)

Take care, Johnny.

[BigPlaya]

How would this sort of thing happen??

[Collide]

Yes that is weird I personally have had no problems with parasites b4. but that does sound very weird. He could hurt his toung, or worse. how old is your veild where did u get him... what is he eating. THat is very bezzar behavior id get some tests done for sure...

[johnnym1972]

Did you buy your chameleon from a breeder or a pet store? I'm not making accusations, I'm just asking. :) Sometimes wild caught animals come into contact with cb babies when they are held at wholesalers, dealers, or importers. They then get infected and sent off to the pet store that orders them from the dealer. After that, the purchaser ends up with a sort of ticking time bomb... at least as far as chameleon health issues are concerned.

There is one other thing that could have happened to your chameleon... incorrect UVB sources. Some dealers/stores use pure black lights...BLB type bulbs, to try to produce a CHEAP UVB source. The problem occurs when the extremely high UVB/UVC levels damage the cornea and retina in the eyes of the animal kept beneath them. This can result in shadow blindness, which is similar to having cataracts. I hope that this helps you.
Take care, Johnny.
Take care, Johnny.

[Trace]

OK before we all panic about ocular parasites, let's all take a deep breath and review our husbandry. Johnny is right, they do occur, but I find it hard to beleive in CBB Veiled Chameleons these days.

Are you sure he's not hungry? They eat like pigs at the size you describe. What kind light are you using? Are there mirrors or shiny areas in or near his cage that will reflect things that he will mistake as food? What kind of enclosure is he in?

If you are concerned though, there is nothing wrong with a trip to the vet for a check up.

Cheers!

Trace

[BigPlaya]

I would say that he is about 4 or 5 months maybe 6. I got him from a petland, which aquired them from a local breeder. I have him in a custom built cage made out of 2x4s, plywood and normal screen door screen. I have the plastic vines inside and the fake plastic aquarium plant inside and I just lay the bottom with newspaper. He only does this to the newspaper(tongue thingy). He probably eats about 8/4 week old crickets per day. Oh he is under a repti-glo 8.0 uvb florescent bulb and I use a zoomed nocturnal infrared heat lamp for a heat source.

[johnnym1972]

Hey Trace, I'm not being sarcastic, but if you read the thread you will see that nobody said that these Veiled were CB!!! That's why I asked where they came from and what their known history was. Just some food for thought... don't just assume that you know all the details!!! Ask first, and then give your opinion. He already said that he just fed and watered it, so why would you think that the chameleon would be hungry enough to do that now?!?!?
:)
Take care, Johnny.

[Trace]

Of course, you know what I would do... I'd take the newspaper out and see if he still does it. Plain and simple.

How big is a 4 week old cricket? Sorry I have no idea... I buy them by size. A Veiled Chameleon, or any chameleon for that matter can eat an insect the width of his/her head without the risk of choking. They chew their food before swallowing so larger prey is not a problem. Feed him big food and see what he does.

And Johnny... I don't assume anything. That's why I asked some basic husbandry questions and went from there.

Cheers!

Trace

[BigPlaya]

Ok, then there would just be a plywood bottom. Would this be ok. Should I maybe get some spagnum moss to put on the bottom. And there is a mirror close by but it is facing up, not towards the bottom of the cage. I will remove the paper. What do you put in the bottom of your cage Trace?

[Trace]

What do you put in the bottom of your cage Trace?

Nothing. All of my cages are bare at the bottom. I don't use spagnum, papertowels, anything that can be accidently ingested.

Cheers!

Trace

[johnnym1972]

Hey Trace, again... no sarcasm intended but; How do you effectively clean a bare plywood cage bottom?!?!? Also, how could paper towels or newspaper be accidentally ingested? I kept and bred Panther and Giant Spiny Chameleons for 6 years, not to mention all of my friends that kept and bred them, and I NEVER encountered or heard of an adult or a hatchling eating newspaper or paper towel!!! I always used newspaper for the adults, and paper towel for the hatchlings and it worked PERFECT for me!!! Just some more food for thought, I guess. :)
Take care, Johnny.

[Collide]

Yea i would take the news paper out too. See what happens I have 2 cages with bare plywood bottoms they are fine although it might be a good idea to seal it. Well i hope everything works out. keep us updated.

just a thought on newspaper i know alot of people use it but dont u think that the inks in it would cause problems?

[johnnym1972]

Hello Collide, what did you use to seal your plywood? Was it oil based or water based? I tried using a sealer that was oil based and it stunk forever! I also tried a water based one, but it didn't last very long. I'm currently building some Tortoise tables and I would love to know what you used so that I could try it.
Take care, Johnny.

[BigPlaya]

Originally posted by Collide
Yea i would take the news paper out too. See what happens I have 2 cages with bare plywood bottoms they are fine although it might be a good idea to seal it. Well i hope everything works out. keep us updated.

just a thought on newspaper i know alot of people use it but dont u think that the inks in it would cause problems?

Well I am a little worried about the ink thing also. And what would I use to seal the plywood thats not toxic?

[Trace]

How do you effectively clean a bare plywood cage bottom?!?!?

Maybe my cages don't have plywood bottoms? Maybe they are screened as well so the excess water drains out the bottom into a catch pail?

We all have different approaches to our husbandry. I do not like substrates in my cages. Papertowel gets wet. So does newspaper. When it gets wet it disintegrates and I don't want my chameleons accidently eating that. Most likely it would pass through their digestive system without a problem, but I'm going to risk it.

What works for me, doesn't necessarily make it right, or will work for you. And vice versa.

Trace

[johnnym1972]

Hey Trace, you told him to take out the newspaper... you didn't suggest a replacement!!!!! He posted that he had a bare plywood bottom, but you didn't offer any advice about that either!!!! What should he do now, take apart his cage?!?!? Maybe you ought to work on your approach a little. This time I am being sarcastic, but you deserve it for trying to play knowledge war in this thread. Nice try though... Johnny.

[BigPlaya]

Ok you guys, no need to have a tiff here. Please just answer my questions. I am worried about this little guy. He doesnt do this all the time. He just does it once in a while and I have now noticed that he will target only a couple of spots on the newspaper. So does this mean that he thinks he sees something that is not there?

[johnnym1972]

QUOTE:
"What works for me, doesn't necessarily make it right, or will work for you."

Hey Trace, why do you offer your opinions then?!?!? If it may not be right, and may not work for others why do you present it as "knowledge"?!?!? I think that the proper word for your postings is "OPINION"... not fact or knowledge, just OPINION!!! Try to keep that straight from now on!
Johnny.

[BigPlaya]

Oh and no one said whether my uv light was ok for this little guy.

[johnnym1972]

Sorry Bigplaya, I didn't mean to turn this into something, I just tried to help!!! If you want to talk about true information, you are more than welcome to PM or email me. I'm through with this knowledge war!!!
Take care, Johnny.

[johnnym1972]

Your UV light is fine, as long as it is no more than 12 inches away. If it is farther away, you need to move it. The closer the better, since the strength of the UV diminishes over distance. By the way, some screen tops can diffuse up to 90% of the UV light output of your bulb. Just a thought.
Take care, Johnny.

[J-Man]

Johnny... you need to just settle down ok? lol

I'm very happy to have Trace a part of this board and I've learned a TON of stuff from her, and I know many other people have too.

All she said was "I'd take the newspaper out and see if he still does it. Plain and simple. " That's plenty of information, and if it isn't, he can ask. He's a big boy. Why are you hassling her about not giving every bit of information that is humanly possible?

[johnnym1972]

Do you know how to read J-Man? Go back and do that first, and then you can whine to me!
Johnny.

[Collide]

Yes ur UV light is good mine are on top of my cages and the chams can get right close to then via sticks ect... the plywood botton should be fine for now if u can take it out temperarily just seal it with polyurathane (ahhh spelling lol) make sure it's ingredients are just polyurathane. if u cant just make sure u dont get too much access water on there during waterings sometimes on the 2 cages i have i have too use a towl and just get all that extra water soaked up. My cages have yet to be sealed im working on a free onw right now and once it is done ill rotat a cham and start on the next.... watch him with that paper gone see what happens ... chams are not the brightest things on earth lol

[joer]

Well from what i learned in the past was that newpaper has ink and yes i have seen a Cham miss a bug and hit the ink. I dont know if that was bad for him but as soon as he saw that happend he took the paper out of the cage.

[Collide]

johnnym1972

in addition to polyurathane (in your case several coats mabey 3) and just seal the corners with silicone that should work well u can even stain the wood b4 hand (for looks) the polyurathane will seal it in. I want a tort one day wating till i can dedicate the space to one though.

BigPlaya

another solution to the bottom would be to creat a box at the bottom mabey 1'deep and line it with a drop sheet (plastic painting sheet) put rocks/pebbles on the pottom for drainage, cover with soil and plant some plants. This is my favorite method works very well for me as i love plants too and since i live in a basement apartment its the only place plants will grow down here.

[johnnym1972]

Hello Collide, thanks for your advice! I have tried a few different products, but never Polyurethane. I like the silicone idea as well, you should post it in the enclosures forum. I bet that there are many people who would love to hear about it. I also used plants in one of my 6 foot tall by 3 foot by three foot Chameleon display enclosures, with the plastic sheeting stapled into a 12 inch high box for waterproofing. The only problem that I had was removing all of the waste products effectively. I ended up taking out the top 6 inches of the soil once a month and replacing it with new soil. That was the only way that I could be sure that it would truly be clean. It's a really cool looking enclosure though. Live plants and chameleons are an AWESOME match!!!!!
Thanks again Collide!
Take care, Johnny.

[Collide]

no problem johnny id like to see some picks of your setup and chams u too BigPlaya. Got any?

and lol i know im gonna get bit for this but i cant hold my toung:(
cant we all just be friends:D ;)

[johnnym1972]

Hello Collide, I agree with you COMPLETELY... 100%!!! I even tried to sort this out with Trace via PM's, but to no avail. I hope that this was worth it because I'm through with open forums. There is way, way, way, too much competition in these threads, and all I was doing was trying to help. I'm sorry again Bigplaya, but I just wanted to help you out!
Take care, Johnny.

[Collide]

Too bad we need some new people in here, trace is a extremly nice and helpfull person. Mabey u just got off on the wrong foot. im not going to take sides. I think u just might have come on a little strong. I would like to see some of you chams grab my email if u wish otherwise sorry to see you go..


Sorry things have gotten off topic here i hope we are still answering your questions big somewhere in here at least

[johnnym1972]

I think that I still have some pictures of my Chameleons, but I sold everything to concentrate on Turtles and Tortoises, Parrots, and Leucistic Sugar Gliders. I used 150 litre rubbermaid tubs as enclosures for my Chameleons. They are easy to clean, durable, opaque, and cheap. The entire top was screened for ventilation, and they each had a potted Pothos plant for hiding in and humidity. I mounted 24 inch UVB lights on the inside wall of each rubbermaid, at about the 18 inch high mark. That way, they were always close to the Chameleons. I kept my hatchlings in open topped 60 litre rubbermaids with the same UVB bulbs, but mounted over the tubs instead of inside them. I used 60 + 75 watt black light heat bulbs for 24 background heat, the UVB bulbs provided visible light on a timed cycle. I hope that this helps, and I'll try to go through my pictures to see how many good shots I have. I know that I have many many individual pictures of Chameleons. But they usually went to the purchaser, or people that were interested in purchasing a Chameleon from me.
Take care, Johnny.

[gfisher2002]

Just a bit of info, to the best of my knowlegde, almost all major newspaper companies use a vegtable oil based ink. This was introduced to prevent sickness or dying if an infant was to consume a newspaper page. Which makes the ink pretty safe for chams. Also I've heard of people using 2 part epoxies to seal the plywood bottom. The kind used for pools and childrens water toys are non toxic. Look for stuff using around babies, its USUALLY non toxic and safe for animals as well.

[eyespy]

It is law in both the US and Canada that newspaper must be made from soy and other vegetables and the ink must be non-toxic. It is THE recommended wrap for human babies that are coming too early to be born at the hospital because it is considered to be so safe.

Glossy supplements can be coated with chemicals that aren't safe to use, but as long as you are using the regular newsprint you're fine.

[J-Man]

eyespy, you're too smart.

[Collide]

Humm u learn something new everyday..

[johnnym1972]

As always gfisher2002 and eyesye, you are both a reliable source of good quality information. It's good to hear from people who do their reseach throroughly. You are both true assets to this online community and good role models for herpers everywhere.
Take care, Johnny.

[Collide]

Still poking the wound eh!

[gfisher2002]

lol, thanks johnny but I don't deserve that much praise. I just call it as I see it and say what I know. Nothing more. I wish you and Trace would stop arguing. Trace has helped me alot. When you have as many chams as her I could see how your own methods would seem like law to you. But she is very helpful, and never, I don't think, would give info that might lead to injuring a cham. I like BOTH of you. And BOTH of you are very informative. Everyone here is. If they were rude and unhelpful, I don't think they'd last long. And word would spread. I feel all the wiser just having met most of you here.
Cheers all,
'me tips my beer at screen' (wait, its only milk. lol)

[Wuntu Menny]

I use sand on the bottom of all my cham cages. It adds ballast to stabilize the tall cages, it makes cleanup super easy, and I always know when the females start rooting around for nest sites. It also holds any water that splashes around and releases it through evaporation through the day to boost humidity.
I've used it for years without incident or mishap.

Newspaper is fine as several people have stated, and I'm wondering if the cham in question simply mistook some text or image for prey. I've seen chameleons strike at really strange items for no good reason.

WM

[gfisher2002]

lol, ya Lucy my Ambanja likes to try and catch everything small that moves. I smoked my thumb with a shovel yesterday and half the nail is purple and black. When I fed her today, she was sitting on one hand and as I grabbed another cricket, she nailed my thumb with her tongue. lol. Must have looked a yummy cricket color.

'me turns to Lucy and smiles'

[Wuntu Menny]

JOHNNYM, yer PM box is full !

imagine that

[Oliverian]

you deserve it for trying to play knowledge war in this threadJohnny, it sounds like you're the one playing 'knowledge war'. From the very beginning all you did was bash trace, when she said nothing in the wrong. I'm not trying to offend, but if you have a personal problem with her, mabye you could have it privately, instead of trying to make her look like a fool when she did nothing wrong.

I would guess that mabye he sees something on the newspaper that may appear to be food to him. I know absolutely zip about chams though, but it's just a suggestion.
-TammyR

[meow_mix450]

Hey im sorry, i didnt read the last few posts, but i really think you took it hard here jonny, this fourm here, is for what people think and there opinion, its not like shes saying you MUST do this or that, like collide said, im not here to take sides. Trace is a great person, nice and very kind. Most of my posts are my opinion. Giving suggestion on what they should do to help the person out. Hey you never chameleons can eat anything if tey really wanted too. There was a thread that a chameleon ate an elastic, so anything thing can happen right??? no here is right or wrong, i not here to tell you off or anything, ii just want to say you were a little harsh. gfisher is right if everyone was rude, and mean, like i wouldnt be here anymore, i heard that kingsnakes, have very rude people there, thats just what i hear. im just 14, and you dont see me being rude to anyone. Trace, has also helped me a lot, shes helped me, and keeping giving me new ideas, and where to get stuff cheap(like a fogger at lee valleys) i never knew that. So i want to thank Trace, and please stop fighting

Im sorry to put everything off topic cause i really hate, how everything turned around in this fourm im really sorry. Back to the topic, theres always reptile carpet stuff???? i have used it and its fine

Meow

[gfisher2002]

Well put Meow. You know for 14 your very mature. Most the 14 year olds I've met online are goof balls. Thumbs up to your attitude and maturity in your posts.

[meow_mix450]

Thanks, what i learn is to repect people, and people will repect you back, i still have fun, hang with my friends, and goof around, just got to know when to stop:)

Meow

[BigPlaya]

Well if anyone even cares anymore*sigh*:rolleyes: , I took the newspaper out and he doesnt seem to be doing it anymore. I also turned the mirror around that was there.(Wasnt using it anyways). I also kinda moved the cage over a little. I think he could see my savannah a little bit. He actually looks greener and happier today and doesnt have the brown Im pissed off look to him. Thanks for your help Trace, Johnny, Collide and whoever else helped. I would just like to say, these forums are about reptiles and everyone does things different. Even the pros that take care of hundreds of snakes all do things differently. So lets not knock each others methods of care. The way I always see it, is I get everyones opinion then I form my own.

[Collide]

Im glad to hear that BigPlaya. silly chameleons are not the brightest. got any pic's of your little guy I love veilds they just grow soo very quickly.

[J-Man]

Originally posted by gfisher2002
'me tips my beer at screen' (wait, its only milk. lol)

Milk is where it's at

[BigPlaya]

Originally posted by Collide
Im glad to hear that BigPlaya. silly chameleons are not the brightest. got any pic's of your little guy I love veilds they just grow soo very quickly.

Im working on it.

[Wuntu Menny]

BP, if your cham can see any other herp in the room, its potentially going to cause stress and abnormal behaviour. Eliminate as many lines of sight as you can to other enclosures and give your chameleon the least amount of visual stress.

You've got the right approach as far as getting all opinions before forming your own. That's how I learned the ropes with chams too. And yes, its all about the animals and screw the hominids !

WM

[meow_mix450]

ey im glad to ear, tat everyting ok now, so wt are ou using, im guessing just ply wood??? rigt now im using towel, and wen i clean its cge i take it out and clean it, its working:)

Meow

[BigPlaya]

Ya its just plain old plywood but I think Im gonna put a towel in there.

[meow_mix450]

ya give it a shot you never know, it seems to be working for me, and plus when you spray that water it would lead it, going on the plywood and its goes all weird. You got some very good questions

Meow

[gfisher2002]

Good to hear you chams doin better BigPlaya. In my enclosure I use some WASHED coconut husk chunks. There is stuff not washed and full of dry dusty stuff. Bad. Also there's chips and chunks. The chucks are bigger than her head so she can't accidently ingest them. I just scoop the poop out once a week and change the whole works every 3 weeks. She seems to always poop in the same spot. Works for me. I've watched when she hunts free roaming crix off the bottom and every now and then she gets a chunk of coconut but she just shakes it off. I hand feed 98% of the time anyhow. She also seems to enjoy walking on the chunks in the bottom. Almost like its a challenge. Also makes the enclosure look way more natural which can't be bad for her.

[Collide]

just a note here dont leave the towel in the cage it stayes wet and that just isent good i just use to wipe up the mess after.

[meow_mix450]

oo ok thats a good idea as well

Meow

[katev17]

On the bottom of my cage, I've put down a layer of paper towel, then got 2 plastic garden trays from the ...garden store... (go figure) ... for about 4 bucks total... I cut 1 edge off both the trays, so now it's like... one big expandable tray. I put the tray on top of the paper towel, so I can empty it every day or two, depending on his pooing patterns, and if any water's been absorbed into the paper towel, I can change it without having to pick up pooey towel... works pretty well!

Also, I covered all of my wood with a water based seal/stain combo thing, and it's worked so well so far.

Good luck :) Glad to hear everything's gone back to normal .
Kate

[lanalizard]

[QUOTE][ I kept and bred Panther and Giant Spiny Chameleons for 6 years, not to mention all of my friends that kept and bred them, and I NEVER encountered or heard of an adult or a hatchling eating newspaper or paper towel!!!

well aint that sumthin'....because 3 of my chameleons have caught the paper towel and got it in the mouth and kinda choked on it. when i found it on time is the good part. so dont sit there and try to act "correct" when that has happened to me and about 10 of my chameleon friends.

[gfisher2002]

Hey lanalizard, no offence but johnny never said they wouldn't accidently get it while eating. He said they have never eaten newspaper. As in on purpose. He didn't say they couldn't catch it in the mouth while feeding on free-roamers. I think if they did get a peice it might be difficult to get it away before they ate it. But I don't know if they would intentionaly go down to the bottom and start chowin on the newspaper.

Don't take this wrong because I do agree with your point.

Also, My local pet dude uses something I have not seen mentioned here. He uses a peice of laminated aquarium backdrop on the bottom. It doesn't get saturated and soft so they could accidently eat it, it wipes and cleans easy and look pretty good too. Just a thought.