Timber vs Canebrake

[Crotalus75]

As far as taxonomists are concerned Timber and Canebrake rattlesnakes are the same species. Timbers being the northern population and typically having a darker color with some wider more irregular blotching across the back and usually a darker region toward the tail. Canebrakes being the more southern population and having a lighter color with chevrons and some rust red thrown in. In MO we have specimens that fit both of those descriptions as well as yellow populations. What I am wondering is where does the distinction between "canbrake" and "timber begin"? When they were considered subs where was the line drawn? Just curious.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Rattlesnakes have been discussed in taxononic values like this over and over. There are some variations between the two, but genitically who knows where the line will be drawn. I see both species that look like the other, so it all depends on how ya feel I suppose. I for the most part find them as the same species at this time, but still refer to them by their common collective names.

Like here in AZ with the viridis complex. Some consider C. cerberus a viridis subspecies still, but has been placed taxonomically as a seperate species of its own. The Hopi Rattlesnake formally known as C.v. nuntius was placed back as C.v.viridis (Western or Prarie Rattlesnake), but still commonly named the Hopi Rattlesnake. With the common name, you can still adhere a recognition with the snake in referance.

[SCReptiles]

We live in the cross over region. We have both timbers and canes. There are some that say if the background is black or yellow, then it’s a timber. And there are some that say if you can see the vertical strip, it’s a cane. As of now there is no scientific distinction, but we recently provided DNA samples to Dr Gordon Schuett who believes his next paper will change that, actually recognizing the cane as its own species.

Timber
http://secw.bravepages.com/Chuck/pics/field_timber.JPG

Cane
http://secw.bravepages.com/Chuck/pics/field_cane.JPG

[reverendsterlin]

just a little ot, aren't the cane/southern species more rapidly being noticed for neurotoxic changes in their venom than is their northern counterpart?

[SCReptiles]

Yes, that is the way I understand it. I kicked this around with Dr Fry about two weeks ago. I think that is because they are from a much warmer climate. They have excess heat to aide digestion. The northern specimens, I feel, need the Hemotoxic venom to help breakdown prey in those colder climates.

[atheris]

There is big differences at the morphological characters, and also in number of scales too.

C. horridus horridus has a 23 (21-26) midbody scale rows and 15-34 dorsal body bands.

C.horridus atricaudatus has a 25 (21-25) midbody scale rows and 21-29 dorsal body bands. (Brown&Ernst, 1986)



Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[reverendsterlin]

very small differences and huge overlap Kert, the experts are debating after long research. You make your conclusions based on what research?

[Mustangrde1]

I am not near as up to date on the timber vs canebrake debates as I would like to be . from the little i see here we have a differance in both venom's and scale counts. Has any one done any DNA work or blood work to show any type of major differances?

[atheris]

Brown, William S. 1993. Biology, status, and management of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus: a guide for conservation. SSAR Circ. 22. 78 pp.

And

Brown, Christopher W. and Carl H. Ernst. 1986. A study of variation in eastern timber rattlesnakes, Crotalus horridus. Brimleyana 12:57-74.

Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[C.m.pyrrhus]

The simple little differences between what the surface looks like as to the genitic make up is far from making any call on species seperation. As science has proven, alligators and crocs are further seperated in genitics than we are to chimps, but they look a lot more a like than we do our hairy cousins (which IMO should be placed in the Homo group from the Pan genus). Looks can be desieving and/or misleading.
Simple coloration and scale numbers are not all that important, as it is genitic make-up that makes the difference. Scientic folks also differ on where to draw the line as to what incorperates a new species. Interesting to see where it all goes from here.

[reverendsterlin]

and the overlap in all aspects allows you to conclude where crot specialists won't touch come from where? Do you not see that the overlap makes for the same problems that Bcc experts find? Again where do your conclusions come from? If either of the Browns or Ernst had 'solved it' do you really think this discussion would be happening? Back your conclusions.

[atheris]

Well, in my opinion is that the C.h.atricaudatus should be as a subspecies as it is now.

But i recommend to read those documents written by Brown etc.
I just wrote what was told on their research, and at the end of my topic was reference .

Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[reverendsterlin]

that is fine and maybe as it should be but all you references are 10+years out of date. Herp research is finally getting somewhere with new methods/studies but passing on old studies isn't best. A quick look at what was the "real deal" even 10 years ago shows major problems and misinformation.

[SCReptiles]

Has any one done any DNA work or blood work to show any type of major differances?
Yes, Gordon has done extensive research and is convinced when this research is complete and published, the cane will not be a sub-species of timber, but will be its own species. He intends to show there is that much genetic difference. He also plans to divide cottonmouths into at least two species.

[Crotalus75]

Here is a link to some info on Dr. Wusters site

http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Updates/Crotalinae2003.htm

Gotta run..........

[atheris]

Well well, according as this NEW research, the differenses of genetically are so minimal that C.h.atricaudatus should not be even a subsp. of horridus.

In DNA is only 1.1% differenses at mitokondria (316 b.p.)

Clark, A.M., P.E. Moler, E.E. Possardt, A.H. Savitzky, W.S. Brown & B.W. Bowen (2003) Phylogeography of the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) based on mtDNA sequences. Journal of Herpetology 37(1): 145-154

Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[reverendsterlin]

thats better, know if there is an online copy of the study? And you are saying that canebrakes are not timbers right?

[atheris]

There is still differences at the morphological characters !!
I belive there is going to be a long "arm wrestling" about C.horridus ssp.
But this Crotalus genera is not so familiar to me. And thats why i quote researches whats done so far !


.And you are saying that canebrakes are not timbers right? I said that it should be a subsp. as it is, not a new species.



Ps. Im not aware any online copy, found these at the university

Kert Lipponen

WWW.HOTSNAKES.ORG

[reverendsterlin]

best place to find curret stuff by far. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, I think even venom differences should be considered when the genetisist get going but thats only going to support the sub-species stance anyway. Must say Kert, when I asked that you step up and support *bang* you did. Wish more beliefs/opinions would do it too.

[herpetological]

I've collected specimens from throughout the range. IMO the southern form of "Canebrake" is markedly different from the forms close to the "overlap range" of the two. The venom structure is quite different as well. I would expect that any specimens collected near this overlap would be similar and or related. However, the forms at the Northern extreme and the Southern extreme would show "cleaner" traits in both morphology and venom complexity. I think it could only be answered with a LARGE sample from throughout the range of both. Just as in Mojave's there is a hot belt in the outer banks where the Cane's are quite "Hot". However, that brings up the question of wether "venom components" should be included in considering taxonomy.??

[reverendsterlin]

lol, herpetological is that what I was saying?

[herpetological]

...Seems strange that someone would be argumentive when someone is stressing the same points and issues. My post was being typed before you had gotten up with that particular post. I did not view your post until after mine went up. I assure you that it was not meant to"overshadow" your post???? Having a bad day? Thanks Ray G. HBR

[reverendsterlin]

geez, my abject apologies. my day has been great. couldn't find a free download for a sense of humor though

[herpetological]

Maybe I just took it wrong???? Thanks Ray G. HBR