What kind of ???

[BigPlaya]

What type of bp's do you need to make piebald bp's??? And can someone explain how this happens. They are truly a beautiful specimen.

[Corey Woods]

Pieds are born that way...........they are a simple recessive gene.

Corey

[Will]

It's a recessive gene. So you'd need either 2 Heterozygous, or 2 homozygous, or 1 Heterozygous and 1 Homozygous to get Pied babies.

[BigPlaya]

Ok so bare with me. If I bought a 100% Het. Albino male and bread it with a "normal" female BP and had a clutch and bread those females back with the dad, would I get pieds or albino's. I am slowly starting to catch on but it is soooo confusing.

[Big Mike]

Piedbald genes and albino genes ar not the same. If you are breeding with albinos and het for albino...you might get albinos...you get no pieds. If you are breeding with pied stock then you have a chance of getting pieds but not albinos.

Got it?

[snakehunter]

albinos, but you woundnt want to do that...its inbreeding, and the genetics get weaker the more generations you do that

[BigPlaya]

Originally posted by Big Mike
Got it?

Well kinda but all this had to start somewhere. (With normal ball pythons). I want to know how you get to the point where you can have het piebald. AAAAAAHHHHH!!!! I am soooo confused.

[maiden_canada]

if you breed a het to a normal, you have a small chance of getting one

[joshm]

you need a pied to get het for pied, you breed a pied male to a normal female and you get het for pied or you can breed a het pied to a normal and get 50% pos het pied.
Thanks Josh

[elevation24]

100% het to normal breeding will produce 50% possible hets. You will get no homos, just more hets. Bare minimum you have to have 2 hets to get any homos. Otherwise it will just be hets.

[BigPlaya]

Ok but do you see what Im saying, the pied gene had to start somewhere. With imbreeding of some sort. The Piebald ball python is a product of imbreeding somewhere down the line is it not?? There is no "white" ball python, which means that the piebald wasnt created by breeding a "white" ball with a "normal" ball. Do you see what Im saying. What Im basically asking is where did this all start? It had to start with an albino and a normal bp. :( :( :( :confused:

[BigPlaya]

Originally posted by elevation24
100% het to normal breeding will produce 50% possible hets. You will get no homos, just more hets. Bare minimum you have to have 2 hets to get any homos. Otherwise it will just be hets.

Now your bringing homos into the picture. I think im gonna cry here!!! I just dont het it. HAHAHA I crack myself up

[elevation24]

http://www.pkreptiles.com/pdf/articles/piebalds.pdf

Does that help any with where they came from? It is a naturally occurring.

A homo shows it's mutation.

[joshm]

the pied is a natural ocuring type of ball python, it is not from the result of cross breeding. Bigplaya I'm in calgary to if you want call and I'll explain. email me or pm me
Thanks Josh

[joshm]

maiden that chance is so small it would not even be concidered, the normal would have to be a het of some type(50%, 66%, and so on)
Thanks Josh

[joshm]

maiden that chance is so small it would not even be considered, a normal would have to be a het of some type(50%, 66%, and so on)
Thanks Josh

[BigPlaya]

That was a good article. So let me get this straight. There is het for Piebald, there is het for albino, there is het for Hypo Xanthic, there is het for striped and there is het ghost and so on and so on. So the chances of finding a het for piebald under like $10000 is next to impossible right?? So het isnt just het, there are many different types of het.

[BigPlaya]

Can someone also explain the difference between Het. and Homo.

[elevation24]

Het piebalds aren't very expensive. I got my pair for $2500.

Heterozygous means that it carries the gene that can produce whatever morph it is het for. The snake will look totally normal but it will be able to produce that morph. Homozygous means that it actually shows the morph, like it IS a piebald.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Ok, I think there is some false or misleading information here... not to attack anyone, but just to clarify...

If you breed a het pied male to a normal female you will have NO chance of producing pieds. You would get all of the babies being 50% possible hets and when you bred the females back to the father, you'd get pieds form the ones that were actually het. But only 25% of the babies (odds are) would be pied.

Someone said that the female would have to be at least 50% or 66% het... not really true. Animals aren't 50% or 66% het. They either ARE het or they aren't. Period. We just call them 50% and 66% possible hets because they MIGHT carry that gene but it's not possible to tell if they do or not. Not because they carry a percentage of that gene. Big difference. The percentages come from the odds of them carrying that gene based on the Punnet Square.

Heterozygous or Het means the snake carries that gene but it does not show.

Homozygous or Homo means the snake shows the trait or is a pied for example.

- Het x Normal = all normal looking with a 50% chance of being hets.
- Het x Het = 25% Homo and the rest would look normal. 2/3 of the normal looking babies would be het so they all are called 66% possible hets.
- Homo x Normal = All babies would look normal but would carry the gene. All are hets.
- Het x Homo = 50% would be homo and the other 50% would be hets.
- Homo x Homo = All babies would be homo

That is for simple recessive genes.

Tough to wrap your head around at first but if you do a little research and try a few Punnet Squares, you should get the hang of it. I thought I would just set the record straight. It can be hard enough to understand genetics at first without having false information. Any more questions? :D

Oh yeah, and breeding offspring back to a parent is not nearly and "dangerous" as some poeple think. That is how almost all genes are proven out....

[BigPlaya]

:bugged:Tim you are the man!!!!!!!!! I totally get it. So if I was to buy a male het piebald, within approx. 5 years with imbreeding I could have some piebald bp's. Are there gonna be any degenerates due to this imbreeding. But when you say that the odds are 25% of getting piebald from the father/daughter combo, what happens if you dont get piebald/ where do you go from there. Just keep on breeding the father and daughter till you get them???? Or do you take one of the granddaughters and breed that with the dad or do you take the males from that clutch and breed it with its mother. Do you see what Im getting at?? This is all too clever. I feel like a mad scientist in training. And tried following the punnet square from Ralph Davis's site and I got lost real fast. Its all coming in clear now. :D

[joshm]

You are right Tim sorry I new what I was thinking just didn't type it properly, thanks for pointing that out my bad.
Thanks Josh

[BigPlaya]

Oh one more thing. If you were to breed a het pied male with an albino female would you eventually get albino/piebalds?? I have never seen one of those. And I remember seeing a pure white piebald once, would that be from breeding 2 piebalds.

[Will]

Big Playa check out this site (http://www.serpwidgets.com/cornsnakes/Genetics/genetics.html) .

It's a corn snake site, but basic genetics is basic genetics. Just to get you started, if that helps.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Let's say you bought a het pied male, when he is old/big enough to breed(which could be his 1st winter), you'd want to breed him to at least one normal female... more if you have them. Then, when the eggs hatch, you'd keep most or all of the females and raise them until they were old/big enough to breed (2nd or 3rd winter generally). Because all of his offspring only have about a 50% chance of being het, you'd want to keep more than one to improve your odds of getting one that is actually het.

So now it has been a few years and you have your nice big het pied male and 5 or so of his 50% possible het females. When you breed him to the 5 girls, the clutches of eggs that hatch and have hets came form mothers who were het. The ones that didn't have pieds aren't (but you may have just gotten bad odds on those).

So the more possible het pied females you have to work with, the better your odds are. If you just bred your het male to one possible het female, you're only shooting 50%.

You wouldn't get any ill effects form that amount of inbreeding. That is how tons of breeders got into the high end morphs.

So, the parents have the pied gene which is represented by the lower case "a" and they look normal with is shown with an upper case "A". Here is the Punnet Square showing the odds of the offspring being homo, het and normal...

The female is represented by the <b>Bold</b> "A" and "a" on the top row and the male by the <b>Bold</b> "A" and "a" on the left hand side...
<table border="1">
<tr>
<td>.</td>
<td><b>A</b></td>
<td><b>a</b></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>A</b></td>
<td>AA</td>
<td>Aa</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><b>a</b></td>
<td>Aa</td>
<td>aa</td>
</tr>
</table>

AA = Completely normal and not het
Aa = Looks normal but carries the gene (het)
aa = Homo, or in this case pied

So the one square is pied. 25% chance. the two het squares can't be differentiated from the "AA" normal so all three are called 66% possible hets....

Keep asking until you got it.... once you get it you'll know what kind of odds you want to be working with... :)

Thanks,
Tim Cranwill
www.cranwill.com
cranwill@mts.net

[Tim_Cranwill]

Two pieds bred together would just make More pieds. aa X aa on the Punnet Square would give you all aa babies. The pure white snake you saw was a Leucistic Ball Python... totally different genes...

Pied Albinos don't exist yet but I'm sure there are double hets out there and we'll see them in the near future... :) Save your nickels and dimes now!

[BigPlaya]

So when you did get a couple of clutches from the "daughters", would it be ok to breed the cousins that were piebald? I am finally getting this down. One thing that is a little unclear, is when you have a double het (piebald/albino)that is why its called a double het. Because they are 2 different hets. And yes they are out there cuz Ralph Davis has a double het(piebald/albino). I guess I just answered my own question there didnt I?

[maiden_canada]

cranwill you're the man. i learned alot on this thread too. if you breed a het to a normal (lets say piebals) what are the chances of getting one piebald in that one clutch? like 1%?

[joshm]

0%, you don't get pieds from breeding a pied to a normal. You woul get 50% pos hets if you did that.
Thanks Josh

[joshm]

sorry I ment het pied to a normal, guess I should read before I hit post.
Sorry Josh

[Tim_Cranwill]

No problem guys. :)

Breeding two of the pied offspring would be fine. It's been done by breeders for years. I can't say with any authority that you'd NEVER run into any problems line breeding but in the scenario we've been talking about, you'd be fine and so would the snakes! ;)

Clarke, with simple recessive genes (Albino, Piebald, Ghost, Genetic Stripe and etc), both parents need to carry the gene for any of the offspring to come out pied. It's a different story all together with co-dominant genes though...

With Co-dominant genes, you get to see results with the first clutch. If you breed a Mojave or a Pastel Jungle to a normal, 50% of the babies will be Mojave or Pastel. Pretty cool.

If you really want to get into some crazy snake genetics, start reading about corn snake genes... :D