BLACK : King -vrs- Milk

[Classic]

Can anyone here give a difinitive distinction between a Black Milk Snake and a Mexican Black Kingsnake? Are there any scale counts or obvious features?

Thanks
Brian

[gonesnakee]

I'm pretty sure the biggest difference is when they are babies. The Black milks appear to be Milks in color/pattern & turn solid black as they get older, whereas the Mex Blacks are black from the beginning with the exceptions of some occassional speckling (correct me if I am wrong people LOL). If you want a REAL black snake, get an Eastern Indigo heh heh Mark

[Andy_G]

Black milks are tri-coloured as babies and turn jet black as adults, they are generally calmer than black mex's, and as adults black milks are much larger. Black milks can also be kept at room temperature (exactly like an Andean). They are both as close as you can get to an indigo without burning holes in your pockets! :)

Both are great snakes and have awesome feeding responses, but, especially since I obtained one today, I prefer black milks! :)

[Classic]

Unfortunately, the suspected juvi black milk is black already and the Mex Blks are neonates . If I put both snakes, side by side....Is there any difference?

Brian

[vanderkm]

A couple points to share but not based on personal experience with Black milks (there are a few people who post here who have them and hopefully they will respond), only with Mexican blacks.

It is my understanding that Black Milks will still have hints of the tri-color pattern until 2 years of age - especially if you look at them in under different light conditions - and they will be a heavy bodied snake that is easily 3 feet by that age. Mexican blacks have a very irridescent, blue belly and often have distinct scattered white scales and while ours was approaching 3 feet by 2 years, he was not as heavy bodied as a honduran of comparable length.

The photos I have seen of black milks show them to look a lot like Hondurans or Andean milks in body shape and size. I believe the Mex black have more of a neck distinction than the black milks as well - similar to the difference between a Mexican black and a Honduran of the same size - viewed from the top and from the side. In the hondos the head seems to form more of a blunt wedge from the side and in the Mexican black there is more of a dip where the head meets the body.

Would be great to see photos of the ones you have for comparison - but would be hard to compare when they are not the same size and maturity. Would love to see a side by side photo though and would be very jealous if you have a black milk - definately on my wanted list,

mary v.

[reverendsterlin]

a juvi(meaning under 2 years) black milk should still have plenty of pattern under a close look

[Ace]

From Ronald Markell's Book "Kingsnakes and Milksnakes" -

Mexican Black Kingsnake: Dorsal scale rows 23-25, ventrals 213-225, subcaudals47-56, Supralabials 7-8, infralabials 9-10

Black Milk Snake: Dorsal scale rows 19, ventrals 216-236, subcaudals 42-63, supralabials 7-8, Infalabials 8-10

Looks like the best way would be to count dorsals ;).

[Joe]

I have black milks that are well over a year old, one is almost solid black while the other only has slight tipping, Good luck with Identifying it

[Stockwell]

It should be easy...LgNigritus usually have white under the chins and are black at a much smaller size.(couple feet or less) some can be totally black as hatchlings, but often there is a vague speckling similar to splendida (which they intergrade with), especially along the sides and near the head and neck.
Black milks(Lt gaigeae), as already mentioned remain partially tricolored, like ugly hondurans, until they are at least a couple years old, and about 3 feet long. Females turn black before males.
If you have a shiny smooth, black snake smaller than 3 foot with no faint indictaion of triads(banding), then you have a Lg nigritus

Here's my yearling black milks for your observation
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/18011590Dscn0548-med.jpg

[jwsporty]

Well this is the snake that Brian is curious about?

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1149Dameon-25-11-03-04.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1149Dameon-25-11-03-05.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1149Dameon-25-11-03-03.jpg



Jim

[Joe]

it could also be a Black variable
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1384763-med.jpg

[Joe]

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/138blackvari-med.jpg

[Andy_G]

Not that I know anything but...that head looks an awful lot like a black mexi...maybe it's just me.

[vanderkm]

Joe - that variable is incredible!! as are Roy's photos of the Black milks - great to see photos of these as they mature and your description of the color changes indicate that the snake is not likely a black milk. The head and neck shape look more like a mexican black king than a big milk species. This has been a great thread to learn from!

mary v.

[Stockwell]

Agreed Mary! I couldn't swear by it, as no close up head or chin photo has been provided but I think there is a high probability it is a Lg nigritus from the info given.
It's definately NOT a Lt gaigeae, and given the size, and head width, I doubt it's a melanistic
mex thayeri either.
both melanistic thayeri and gaigeae are quite rare in Canadian collections. They aren't too common at shows or in the pet trade yet, and as far as I know they aren't yet being produced in any numbers in Canada, if at all.
I was producing Mexican black kings in the early 80's...They are as common as Cal Kings, and quite prevalent in the industry now, so the odds of finding them is great... They are fantastic getulas.. I actually missed mine so much, I got the Lt gaigeae, last year to fill the gap.
I like black snakes and tricolors, so I get both this way in one snake

[Classic]

Ok. I'm sold.

Jim: Can you see any evidence of the tricoloring left on the bottom scales?

Roy: Can you set me up with 1.1 Black Milk? Now or spring? Must be baby. It won't be worth having if i can't experience the change.

All: Thank you for your input.

Brian
HighWaterHerps

[Stockwell]

Brian, I can't set you up as I only have two myself. It will be 05 or 06 before I breed them.

[Classic]

I didn't think i was going to be that lucky.
Thanks

[jwsporty]

Brian:

Pretty sure the black is a Mexi, no signs of reduced banding.
Oh BTW, Kelvin picked you out a real pretty little baby from Marc B.

;)

Jim

[Clownfishie]

Awesome pics Joe! :D Gorgeous snake....

[Classic]

Right on. Thanks Kelvin. How does he look Jim?

[jwsporty]

Brian,

VERRRRRYYYYY NICE !!

[honduranfreekk]

Hey Brian it was my pleasure my friend anytime :)

[herpetological]

If you gently slide the scales apart the Black milk should have some evidence of yellow between the scales.(Yellow skin) The mex will not. Also as noted different scale counts. Thanks Ray G. HBR