chondro morphs? is it possible?

[RachelS.]

I was thinking about this in my sleep... yes, my sleep. I am a weird dreamer. Now I was wondering... why aren't there any chondro morphs/phases? Usually these weird variants come from inbreeding, right? And green tree pythons are a tough species to breed. So is that the possible answer? I have never once seen an albino. But it could surely be possible. Maybe it's because of the different localities... you can breed them together and have a mix, such as (for example) lereh x womena or something similar. But no morphs. What about the blue chondros? Is that a locality or a morph/color phase? Tell me your thoughts on this. I'm curious to know... and if there are such morphs out there, let's here about them. Thanks!

[ohh_kristina]

there is an albino

http://www.albinochondro.com/

[reverendsterlin]

which chondros? you should know the Barkers(right outside of San Antonio) sold Salecies(Albuquerque, New Mexico) some imports that produced the albino. Talk to Tracy at VPI(she responds to email, Damon probably wouldn't). Hopefully Damon will begin producing this or next breeding season but don't expect a price that wouldn't buy a house.

[RachelS.]

Alright thanks guys! Since just normal colored chondros can be more than 1K I bet the albinos are 10x's more! Very very cool looking.

[reverendsterlin]

probably more like 1000X expensive, I doubt they will hit the market for under $100,000 USD if I know Damon.

[reverendsterlin]

er 100X's

[RachelS.]

wow no kidding! What a price!! I did just email the Barkers, hoping to get an email from them soon. Thanks again!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Usually these weird variants come from inbreeding, right?

No. They come from the wild, and are then bred to supply the market. New morphs don't magically appear after breeding related individuals together.

[Julian Garcia]

http://www.finegtps.com/GalleryAdult.htm

Here's a list of some of the proven "morphs"

I I say "_" because besides the albino, chondro genes are not as simple as say ball pythons. IE. blue x blue will not always give you blue offspring or het offspring for that matter.

[Clownfishie]

Through selective breeding, some "morphs" have been produced... these are basically just animals that have been bred for high yellow, or high white, or blue, they're not actual "morphs" in the sense that you would use that term for most other snakes (ie. recessive/co-dom/dominant genes).

There's been only one albino produced so far, by Damon Salecies ... I believe that it's just over a year old now, so it will still be a while before he's old enough to breed. Sure be interesting when it happens though!

[Double J]

Why not just leave chondros the way they are? They look fabulous naturally...so why fix it if it isn't broken? Perhaps I have no place to say this.. I am a frog breeder not a snake guy... but the philsophy in dart frog keeping is that we do not want to artificially create any morphs...we want to leave them relatively alone in terms of selective breeding...well I guess everyone unconsciously selectively breeds as when buying frogs... they pick the fattest, longest femured frog with the nicest pattern. That said.. none of the reputable breeders of darts are attempting to create new morphs. Why? Well, the idea is that we do not know how long we will be able to get these frogs out of the wild because of exporting bans...or for that matter..how much longer they will exist in the wild due to habitat loss, chytrid fungus etc etc. So, dart frog breeders want to keep the blood as pure as possible such that we can kepe these frogs the way they are in the wild. I hope that nobody takes this a personally, or as an attack on the snake hobby itself... I just want to get opinions from the other side of the fence. For that matter.. I do not really know the status of chondros in the wild... so I could be completely off base.... but anyway.. I just thought I'd post for a little food for thought...
Thanks... and I hope this leads to some interesting discusison.
Double J

[GTPman4]

G.Maxwell explains this very well in the chapter about morphs and locality debates in the Complete Chondro.

[Sonyr]

I think it's the case of "different strokes for different folks". While I enjoy locale specific type animals, for the most part, they don't really do it for me. I have had locale animals in my collection, and still have biak types.....so I am not bashing them....I just prefer designer morphs that are really unpredictable. There are plenty of breeders who like to keep their chondros bred true to their own type. I think there is a strong market for both, and there probably always will.

As far as inbreeding goes, I don't think it's that bad. I think it's overrated. When you are breeding designer animals that share the same trait you are looking for, even if they are somewhat related somewhere in their lineages, it's not a big deal. Sometimes to prove a trait, you have to do this. It just goes back to what you are looking for when it comes to purchasing or breeding you chondros.......If I am looking for high blue or high yellow lineaged baby, I wouldn't bat an eye if I knew that the parents were related.

From my understanding, Damon has the albino male paired up to a couple of females. Not sure if any female has taken, but he is actively breeding. The price of $100,000 for the male is probably right on the money.....even if a little low. He wouldn't sell it even for more money than that though. But when you think about how a true blue line or calico bloodline baby is going to cost you from about $2k-$10k, a $100k isn't that bad....is it?*lol*

Just my 2 cents...............

[RachelS.]

I agree with Double J. I think our animals should be of pure blood. I mean, after all the inbreeding and other breeding to create different color phases and such there will always be the normal/regular colored animal out there... or will there? Wouldn't you agree that they are the most beautiful?

Here's an example... Nelson's Milksnakes!! 2 years ago at a Petco (yes, a petstore, can you believe it?) my friend Simon (aka d/c on this site) and I were in the back of the store taking care of a nelsons milksnake that had RI (I used to volunteer). It seems one of the employees "found" it in a sticky trap and had no idea it was the store's so I innocently asked one of the managers if I could keep it. A few days later I went to a reptile expo to find out what type of milksnake it was. A breeder I was very fond of asked me how I could get a pure nelson's at a petstore. He was very surprised. I wondered what he meant by that and did a little research of my own, finding that most if possibly not all Nelson's milksnakes are either albino or het for albino. I hadn't seen any site selling normals that weren't hets. I also went to a few more reptile shows and noticed the same thing. I probably found, hmmm let's see, 2 maybe even 3 pure nelson's in the last 2 years. If you know anyone selling the pure bloodline, let me know... Please!

With all this breeding and producing new morphs, how do we know all the pure bloodlines are going to still be there? I believe a lot of breeders buy a lot of these wc reptiles to produce new genes more for money than their own pleasure. Take Bob Clark for example, he is a really cool guy, I mean he is totally awesome and I even told him so personally... and I'm not trying to make him look bad by saying this... But look at how he keeps most of his large constrictors... packed into tiny 6 maybe 7 foot long cages. And how often do you think he takes them out for a stretch? Of course he has to do that to save space for all his other snakes, but couldn't it be taken care of differently? And look at all the new wc snakes he buys and then breeds and sells the babies for over $600 to maybe $1000. Does he really do it because he loves the animals or for the money he earns (it could be both!)? You be the judge.

And about all this inbreeding... Did you know that the green burmese python dies at an earlier age (and I think stays smaller) than most of the other color morphs? Green burms were an accident caused by inbreeding. Some of them end up having defficiencies. But did you know that? Of course not... no breeder is going to tell you that. Barely anyone even knows.
Let's have another example... Cocker Spaniels!! Yep, that's right... dogs! From so much inbreeding to make profit and not caring about the real bloodline, even purebred cocker spaniels have ear problems, skin problems, even eye problems. Some dogs are even allergic to their own skin, simply from inbreeding... Sometimes it gets so bad they have to be put down! Is that really fair to the animal? No way! What did it do to deserve this? Nothing. It's purely because of the breeder, all they wanted was profit. Maybe they just didn't know it would come to this. Maybe they weren't smart enough to realize animals can die from something as simple as inbreeding. Did the breeder even know... or did they just not care? Again, you be the judge.

Just my thoughts...................

[Sonyr]

Rachel:

You do bring up valid points, and like I stated, different strokes for different folks. You asked if we kept inbreeding to achieve certain morphs, would there still be locale specific animals. I seem to think so. I haven't been in this hobby too long, just about 3-4 years now. But from my observations, I think that for every 1 person who likes designers, there are 5 who prefer locality pure animals.

Another point, there are plenty of chondros in the wild in their native habitats. So we can't say we're taking them all so there won't be any left. That's pretty asinyne. You can state that the green burmese have shorter lifespans and what not, but can I ask you where you got that information? I'd like to see that in writing somewhere. As far as chondros go, I've asked quite a few breeders the question about the genetic problems chondros have had in regard to inbreeding, and no one has ever even remotely mentioned anything about this. I have chondros in my collection whose lines have started in the mid 1970's..and between then and now, they have been crossed back and forth to achieve some kind of trait........ and all the ppl I have known that have any of the animals from these particular lines, I don't think anyone has had problems, including me.

Once again, I am not saying designers are better than locale animals.......It's just what I like is different than what you like.
And as far as the mentioning of people doing it for profit, I think in every hobby there are ppl who do it for the money aspect of it, and some that do it for the genuine love of it. BUT.....I don't think that the majority of ppl do it for money. Sure, some of these designers might go for alot of money. But that's only because the breeder has made a name for himself, and most of the higher end traits have taken 20-30 yrs to accomplish.

[reverendsterlin]

and a big difference between morphs and enhanced line bred traits. A candycane corn is an albino, just line bred for pattern. High white, high pink, high yellow are line bred traits, albino is genetic. Many of these thing may occur in the wild, but if 1/10 normals survive it seems obvious that natural mutants won't be common. Damon got his on a fluke breeding that could have happened in the wild, now he's saving/enhancing the genetics not abusing them.

[RachelS.]

Very good points Sony.

For the green burm information, I found that out on the redtailboa.net forums and talking to people in a chatroom and through a breeder. I would also like to find that in writing to prove if it is correct or not.

As for chondros, I'm not saying any have genetic problems. I have not once seen a green tree python with anything majorly wrong with it due to breeding, except for maybe a slight kink in the tail ever now and then, but that usually goes away with age and growth in most snakes. I really don't have much of a problem with crossing localities... although if the animals are sold they should be labled as what they truely are. Again with the burms... I noticed some people lable an indian x burmese as maybe an Indian or a Burmese, not a cross. Such is true with most others.

I'm not saying I prefer locales over designers. I think most designer morphs are very attractive, such as the albino retic and high yellow chondro python. But sometimes it is taken to a point far beyond what it should have. Like the paradox albino burmese python... that is somewhat like a piebald. Some people might find it the most beautiful burm out there, I just believe it should have never been created. Also true for ball pythons, there are so many different variants out there... too many in my opinion. Some are just gorgeous, but they should really stop and concentrate on certain morphs than create so many more new ones. The prices may never go down to a point where the regular herp hobbyist can buy one for their own love.

Hybrids are another thing I am against. Although maybe a carpet python x chondro python may be spectacular in some people's eyes, I believe it is wrong. You would never find something like that in the wild. But on the other hand, I think borneo bateaters are awesome snakes, and I wouldn't mind paying the $$$ to have one. Still, I am against the breeding of species to species to create something "new and exciting" in our herpetological world.

Many breeders do, in fact, breed for the joy of it... but there are a lot who do it for profit and to make a name for themselves just as you stated. Again, that is a very good point I came across while reading your post.

Another thing I just thought of is... think about albino burms (I use burms for a lot of my examples). Bob Clark spent so much time on them and produced so many babies that the regular herp hobbyist can buy one for under $200 USD. If we could do that with more designer ball pythons, more people will have the ability to obtain some of their beautiful morphs. Same with leopard geckos. The albino leopard gecko, when first produced was rarely available and cost over $3000 USD in 1999. But now look at them. Because of extensive breeding you can find them at petstores for around $80 or buy them from a breeder for about $50. It's amazing! But then again, a lot of people might have lost intrest in them because they are so regularly available... that's the only downside of it.

[Sonyr]

yes, very good points!

in all sales and breedings, i think for themost part, if you are dealing with a reputable breeder, he/she will always be up front with you regarding the morphs/type that you are interested in. the ones you have to really worry about are the dealers at shows and on classifieds. those types of ppl are the ones that want to make the quick buck and will sell you an aru and tell you its a "wamena" just because they are popular at the time.

as far as the taking and mixing types to the limit. who is to say what the limit is? i hace never seen the albino paradox burmese, but it sounds interesting and beautiful. why shouldn't it have been created? does it have any sort of genetic problems?
too many morphgs? id have to respectfully disagree with you there. i like to see new morphs created. as long as they dont end up with 2 heads or problems, i dont think it hurts anything.
there will always be regular hobbyists and breeders who do it for the love of the animal. and not all big time breeders who produce these beautiful designers are into it for the money. yes, the money is a good incentive, but to have created something new is something that the breeder would be more proud of than the money, IMO.

As far as the hybrids are concerned, I dont like that one bit..but i also think that everyone has a mind of their own and can do as they please. You mentioned the chondro x carpet mixes. while they are neat looking, from what i read, they can't reproduce...they are sterile. So some things we think are cool or what not, will not survive and reproduce. so while someone might create one, that's not to say they'll be able to keep recreating them and exploit them.

im done babbling!

[RachelS.]

I agree with you on the breeders, every bit in that first paragraph.

Now as for new morphs.... I think it's great, too, that we keep creating new ones. But there are just so many!! I honestly can't wait until albino, pied, and pastel ball pythons get as low as maybe $500 - $1000... then I'd have enough money to buy them. But for now, they aren't really concentrated on... they keep making new morphs instead of focusing on the ones they already have. I am seeing that a lot of people are buying hets and such to breed and produce more designers. That makes me really happy. Maybe one of these days I'll come across a deal I can't pass up and be able to get my share of albino or pied ball pythons.

I'm sure a lot of breeders are thrilled when they come across new morphs. I would be excited, too. I would be bouncing off walls!! It's always a joy to see a new color out there! I really enjoy every bit of it, and I always get that feeling that someday I will have one lol. As for the paradox albino burmese python, It's just... not right, IMO. When you see something albino with specks or blotches of normal patterning, doesn't it get you wondering? They haven't even proved out their genetics, yet. So why go and have them available for other herp hobbyist to buy? They should make sure there are no problems with them first. And if there aren't... great! I didn't know that, yet. I just think they need to prove them out before selling them to the public. There are only a few, but you never know Who knows that could just be the next real burm morph. Here's a picture of one... http://www.markmlucas.com/images/pythons/burmese%20paradox%2010.jpg .

Btw, I had no idea condro x carpets were sterile. That just made my day, haha. I'm glad they can't reproduce with those. Hybrids aren't supposed to be made. That's why some, such as the chondro x carpets come out with defficiencies such as this.

[MouseKilla]

I don't think it's logical to say that you are against creating new morphs because it involves inbreeding while at the same time arguing that the bloodline should be kept "pure" by keeping a locality specific line. Seems to me that if you are going to breed only locales then you are just as likely to have to "inbreed" as someone looking to breed for a specific trait. In both cases a limited supply of specimens of the desired type will be available increasing the chance that inbreeding will occur to meet the demand for that type.

Dogs are a good example of how the desire to produce "pure breds" actually increases the frequency of inbreeding. Muts, while not genetically "pure" by definition also aren't inbred, at least not until a particular cross becomes in demand in the market.

Crossbreeding also gets a lot of criticism for being "unnatural". This is the opposite of inbreeding I guess, rather than refining specific genes it's introducing all new ones. The thing to remember about this is that only animals with VERY simillar genes can reproduce in the first place and the simillarity must be closer still to produce viable offspring. I've said before that I think we are flattering ourselves to think we are able to play God and create things that were never meant to be. Chimps and humans share something like 98-99% of their genetics but they still can't reproduce. (Confirming this cost me my job at the zoo. lol!)

Say what you want about any of these practices, maybe you agree with one and not the others or maybe you are all for whatever genetic meddling breeders choose to do, one thing that is true of all of these practices and that is that as soon as animals become captive bred they become different than those found in nature. Whether the gene pool gets really shallow from inbreeding for whatever purpose or whether it becomes murky from crossbreeding it is changed sooner or later when captive. The idea that you can have a wild bloodline in captivity is a false one.

The last thing I want to comment on in this impossibly long post is the profit/love breeding motive argument. I think it's foolish to try to draw an imaginary line in between those who breed for profit and those who do it for "love". Nobody sells anything for any other reason than to get money for it. For some breeding is more business than hobby, others are vice-versa but in the end they are still selling a product. There seems to be an underlying false belief that there is such thing as an unselfish snake keeper. The snake trade, and any other animal trade is founded,right or wrong, on capturing wild animals and exploiting them for profit. When someone buys their first "pet" snake at the shopping mall pet shop they aren't performing an animal rescue, they are purchasing a product. They don't want to be the animal's guardian, they want to posess this creature for their own reasons and benefit whether it's aesthetic or economic.

Hope that wasn't too long to bother reading.

[alexmedrano1]

Rachel, how exactly could creating discovering new morphs be bad? Uhh..think about it. Some of those morphs you see in Ball Pythons are started by imported animals! I wish I had knew more on ball pythons, but I don't. Now as for chondros, the albino was produced from F1 offspring from Locality Specific WC Meraukes. Those 'morphs/designers" are naturallly occuring. Besides, if you say you have a problem with Designers, then you have a problem with Locality Crosses, which you say you don't. That's all a designer is sometimes really. If you say designers are "inbred" snakes, that's not necessarily true with all of them. Rico Walder has a pair of unrelated snakes that have produced some of the best high yellows around.

I agree with mousekilla, let's stop playing the role of God....

As for inbreeding, here's my take on it. Inbreeding is wrong when you produce animals that are 8 grams and don't feed well. If you produce animals that are healthy, eat well, and are large, then I don't see a problem.

[MouseKilla]

I didn't say we should stop playing God, I said we should stop imagining we are capable of doing so. The fact that only certain animals can be bred to eachother while others will not no matter how hard we try proves that if God doesn't want a morph or cross to exist then it simply won't. The diamond/viridis cross failures have proven that there are mechanisms in nature, in the genes, that prevent disasters from happening. If the animals are too different to be compatible then nature won't allow breeding, same goes with inbreeding. Animals that are too inbred do not live long and are often sterile or never become sexually mature. We can pretend we have all kinds of power and therefore responsibility over the genes of the animals we produce but in reality we can't "create" anything we can only provide conditions conducive to breeding and from there nature will decide what is produced, if anything.

[Syst3m]

I just want to say that anyone who beleives the fud about localles is trying to fool them selves. For all of these localles I would like to see people actually have paperwork for where these snakes came from. Not to mention importers who are honest enough to not lie about it for a few extra dollars.

Inbreeding also happens in nature with snakes, they don't have large territories and some snakes even live in pits with offspring, take for instance rattle snakes. They may never stray far from where they were hatched their entire life.

We aren't playing god. We aren't playing Dr. Frankenstien.

It could happen in nature. It could happen without you knowing.