best substrate for box turtles

[LISA127]

I'm looking for a new substrate for my box turtle. Has anyone found anything that they feel works good for these guys?
Thanks.

Btw, this would be for the indoor winter cage.

[Hamster of Borg]

I use several inches deep of cypress mulch myself. I pull out the big chunks and they seem to enjoy burrowing down into it.

Ham

[Reptiles4ever]

i would put some hay in there

[gfisher2002]

I've used cypress mulch and hay. I bake the mulch before I use it. Or you can keep it in the deep freeze. Warm moist Cypress mulch has a reputation for bacterial growth. Hay and washed coconut husk is also a favorite of mine.

[ReptileHQ]

I've experimented with different subtrates for a long, long time. I now use a mix of organic potting soil, peat moss, sphagnum moss and sand. This is kept moist enough where it will clump together. I keep the substrate 10 inches deep. I find this mix to be superior to anything else when it comes to captive husbandry of N.A. box turtles. I also provide them with plastic paint trays as water dishes.

Chris

[BoidKeeper]

Sounds really neat Chris. Do you have any pics of these set ups?
Cheers,
Trevor

[ReptileHQ]

Hey Trevor,

I'll post some pics as soon as possible...no camera right now...damn thing broke and I'm shopping for another one.

Chris

[Wu-Gwei]

Nice, Chris... I use the plastic paint trays as well. Works great, eh.
Anyway, I use organic soil, sand and spagnum moss.


Cheers,
JJ;)

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks Chirs. I'm looking forward to the pics. RES were my first herp when I was 11 or 13 and I never lost interest in turtles. As a matter of fact during my second year of University I actually moved into the dorm with two adult female RES. Long story short I sort of want to get back into turtles but I don't want aquatic ones. I much prefer land turtles like the box or small torts like the Russian but I know very little about their care.
Thanks,
Trevor

[LISA127]

Thanks everyone. This organice potting soil mix sounds good. My question is, is it safe for the turtle to hunt for worms in this? Or do u need to worry about them ingesting it?
Thanks much.

[SCReptiles]

I use hay. Works fine for me and its very cheap

[BoidKeeper]

Do you have any pics Chuck?
Thanks,
Trevor

[SCReptiles]

No, actually I have no interest in turtles. I occasionally find an injured one while road cursing for snakes and I attempt to rehab them. Usually within a month or so they are strong enough to return or they have expired, so I really have never kept them long tern. I have a huge Rubbermaid. I use hey as the general bedding and put a small Rubbermaid in with potting soil. I put night crawls in the soil. Also keep water on the other side. I used to use just soil, but they dirty the water daily on that set up and I do not have a lot of time for maintenance. This set up works much better for me.

[LISA127]

that's interesting, maybe ill try that :)

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks for the info Chuck.
Cheers,
Trevor

[eyespy]

I'm not a fan of soils and mosses. Both are perfect breeding grounds for fungi. About 2/3 of the herps kept on mosses that come through my rescue culture positive for aspergillosis. That's a highly toxic fungus that can cause pneumonia, digestive tract infections, and kidney failure.

[SCReptiles]

What is yout take on the hay?

[eyespy]

I use hay, combined with bed a beast. There is a slight mold risk with hay, but less because it contains less protein than soils and mosses. When combined with the higher acid content of ground coconut husk it minimized the mold risk even more.

I do avoid alfalfa hay, which does have a worrisome protein level. I use either timothy or orchard grass hay.

[ReptileHQ]

We are talking about box turtles here. Animals which are exposed to many different toxins in the wild. They live in rotting vegetation and swamps and soils. It provides high humidity micro-climate opportunities, which this genus of turtle needs to thrive. Hay just does not provide the proper humidity levels. ground coconut mixed with sand, is a much better choice.

I would be more worried about pulmonary aspergillosis in species which do not come in contact with loamy and decomposing soil substrates in the wild. Box turtles live in the stuff and eat highly toxic fungi, their bodies have evolved to cope with it.

Depth of substrate is also very important with NA box turtles. I would say 6 inches deep as an absolute minimum, for two reasons...1) a box turtle will "dig in" every evening when it retires until the morning, having only the top of its shell and its head exposed....and 2) it provides a deep enough layer for egg laying....many females will retain eggs when not provided with a deep enough substrate or the wrong type of substrate.

As with any organic substrate, change it frequently.

Chris

[eyespy]

Yes, that is very true that they encounter the stuff in the wild, but only wild-caught boxies have such immunities. Herps are not born with any immunities since they get no blood from their mothers. It is only by encountering and fighting off pathogens in their daily life that they acquire antibodies. Many die rather than form the antibodies that will enable them to survive. It is a small minority that survive long enough to form immunity from these toxins.

Captive bred boxies are no more able to fight off aspergillosis than something like a uromastyx. In fact, they get pulmonary aspergillosis at much higher rates.

[ReptileHQ]

box turtles born in captivity most definitely aquire antibodies in much the same way as wild ones.

Ones kept in more sanitary conditions on proper substrates do very well. I have never lost a box turtle which I have hatched. 100% of them have thrived...

Uromastyx, bearded dragons, so on, as I mentioned above are more prone to pathogens such as aspergillosis because they rarely encounter it in the wild.

The biggest killer of captive box turtles is dehydration....which is directly linked to substrate choice....I have never encountered a case of aspergillosis in any of my box turtles. If kept correctly, an animals immune system is much stronger and can fight these nasties off....

A good strong earthworm will thrive in aspergillosis filled earth....but take him out of the earth and keep him in hay and see what happens....he'll look like a piece of beef jerky in no time.....LOL

Chris

[eyespy]

I looked up the diagnoses for the herps that came through our rescue clinic in 2002. We had 154 cases of aspergillosis in box turtles, 231 in redfoot tortoises, 9 in uros, and none in bearded dragons.

Out of those 154 cases, 139 were kept on peat and/or sphagnum moss. When switched to hay/coconut husk mixture many cases resolved with limited or no antifungal usage. Only 8 turtles required longterm systemic meds after removing the mosses.

Kidney failure is the usual first sign that a box turtle has aspergillosis, very few develop noticable respiratory symptoms as it tends to lodge so deeply in lung tissue that rasps and wheezing are seldom heard without a stethoscope. We detect our cases through culturing a nasal swabbing. Bloodwork usually reveals kidney strain in even mild cases with no respiratory system involvement.

[ReptileHQ]

If you run a rescue clinic, I would imagine that the majority of the animals you receive are not in the best of shape when they get there in the first place, and I would point the finger at this first.

Dehydration is the #1 killer of box turtles, this can then lead to a number of other ailments because of a weakened immune system.

You received 385 redfoots and box turtles with aspergillosis in one year? Wow, you said 2/3 of them had it which means you receive 600 per annum??? You must run one of the biggest reptile rescues in the world, do you have a website?

Chris

[eyespy]

It's one of 3 clinics that are run by the Veterinary Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania where I work part-time that gets the majority of the cases, the Special Species Clinic. That clinic sees around 2,000 cases a week. Roughly 500-700 of those are reptiles.

My own rescue is funded by a grant through Penn and takes in post-ops from that clinic plus VHUP's 3 hospitals that are not able to go home yet. I take in 5-15 herps a week. Most had surgery on Saturday and will go back to VHUP or their owners on the following Monday.

Most of these animals are neither neglected nor surrendered, they are just too sick to go back to their owners and that is why they need me. I don't take any cases that require rehoming as I find that too stressfull. I just keep them while they need feeding tubes, IVs, injections, wound drains, an d other stuff the owners don't feel confident doing on their own.

[gfisher2002]

Wow, you gotta post some picsa for me. If you go through that many herps in a week, I'd love to see the facilities. You must know alot then. Are you a Vet? Biologist? Just curious. Sounds like the world's best herp job ever!

[eyespy]

I was a certified veterinary surgical tech until I became disabled by a latex allergy in 6/2000. Now I'm a licensed wildlife rehabber and don't actually step foot in the hospitals or clinic because of my allergy. But since it was my work that caused my disability, my rescue operation is funded through the hospital.

I'll see if one of my vet friends has some pics to share. It might take a while though. Here in PA the code of medical ethics is not split between veterinary and human medicine. So we're bound by the same patient privacy laws and need written permission from the owners before publishing pics or case histories, except in limited academic settings.

[LISA127]

Sooo......should I just stick to the Eco Earth bedding I've been using so far??

[eyespy]

I love Eco Earth for turtles and torts but I also give them a mound of hay in one corner because many of them seem to prefer burrowing through that.

[ReptileHQ]

Hi, oddly enough when I contacted the fine people at the "Special Species clinic" at the University of Pennsylvania, they told me that in an average week they see about 12 reptiles in total through emergency and appointments......yes I said 12...1 dozen. This is a far cry from...... 700 reptiles a week you said? They only make appointments for reptiles twice a week because as they put it "it is a small part of our practice". They don't see reptiles in any other clinic at the university either. So, are the other 688 reptiles a week treated by you?

Eco-earth, being organic, decomposes in much the same way as the other substrates mentioned, thus potentially harboring aspergillosis.

Chris

[LISA127]

hmmm......so, organic potting soil? eco earth? hay? i still don't know what to go with....:(

[ReptileHQ]

my point is....it's basically all the same....but include some sand.....and hay provides nothing in the way of micro-climate opportunities(too dry). I would definitely exclude hay from any Terrepene enclosure....much better choices to be used....

My mix....organic potting soil 30%
peat moss 30%
sand 20%
sphagnum moss 20%

I have experimented over the years with substrate and found this mix to be most effective. I have kept box turtles for 20 years and bred them for 15 years.

Chris

[eyespy]

Penn also sees many private patients that are referred by other doctors for outpatient procedures, diagnostic testing, etc. that are not part of the patient census as they are not Penn staff members' patients. The Special Species Clinic is only open Mondays and Wednesdays for their own patients but is available 24/7 for referals from other vets. So officially they see around 800-900 inpatients per year. Many more animals actually come throught the door though.

Penn doctors staff many of the rescue clinics in the Delaware Valley through grants and volunteerism, not as hospital employees. So those animals are not included in the census either as the University does not cover costs. Most of that money comes from the federal government and corporate donations.

That can be very confusing to people who are used to getting info from a vet office, but it's fairly standard hospital accounting. Only those patients for whom the hospital provides veterinary care are counted as "patients". Those who come in for bloodwork, cultures, MRI and CT, etc. from a referring veterinarian don't make the census count. But we techs still see that volume of cases.

[ReptileHQ]

sure...thanks for clearing that up.....

so officially they see 800-900 reptiles per annum...but unofficially they see 36,400 per annum?

your story makes sense to me now.....

Chris

[eyespy]

When a human goes to the doctor and needs labwork, he is often sent to a hospital for tests. He is not a patient of the hospital unless a doctor works on the case. It's not any different in veterinary medicine either.

Only the cases where a doctor either treats the patient or interprets the testing is a patient, results that are sent without interpretation to the referring vet is merely a diagnostic test. See the difference?

[ReptileHQ]

Yes, of course....thanks for clarifying that for me...36,400 cases but 35,600 cases are referals...right...got it now.....

Chris
Lockheed F-117A Stealth fighter pilot

[eyespy]

Your free to think what you like. I'm well used to breeders who launch personal attacks rather than have their methods questioned. It's no skin off my back.

What I will not tolerate is abusive language used to the staff at Penn. Admin is tracing 2 of their recent calls. I sincerely hope that was not you and merely a lurker having some fun.

[ReptileHQ]

I was very polite and merely asked questions when I called. All of my contact information is on my website. I don't hide from anyone, nor do I try to portray myself anywhere as someone I am not. I am myself....always...like it or not, but at least I live an honest existence and never have to remember lies to cover up lies.

I did not launch a personal attack, I tried to justify MY methods through experience. Your methods, I questioned because they do not provide the proper habitat for these animals....then you started talking about how many thousands of reptiles come through your rescue and clinic...and I am highly skeptical of the info you provided with good reason...I don't know of any rescue or clinic that sees that many reptiles, or anywhere even close to that many a year, in the entire world, and I've been in this game for a long time......

Chris

[eyespy]

Calling people a liar isn't a personal attack? Getting nasty to hospital staff when confidential personnel information wasn't disclosed is not a personal attack? Sorry, but I feel quite differently. So does Dr. Rosenthal's assistant.

[ReptileHQ]

1. Never called anyone a liar, even though some info you shared with us would merit such an accusation....

2. Never got nasty with anyone. The person I spoke with was very polite and helpful, and I was polite back. So you either have the wrong person, or you are trying to discredit me and get this thread off-topic......

3. I think I've proved my point, and I am done with this thread.

Chris

[eyespy]

I'm a moderator. If I wanted the thread gone, it would be. Again you make accusations.

[JD@reptiles]

im on Chris's side with this.

[LISA127]

this thread got off topic a long time ago...lol. sorry i brought it up.

the only thing i will say is, according to everything ive read and everyone ive talked to the most important things for boxies are humidity/moister substrate and deep enough that they can burrow. i just wanted to know what others have found that makes providing these things simple and safe.

[gfisher2002]

Ok, look "Calm the hell down"!!! Chris was not directly saying you were lying but merely questioning your numbers. Please don't start fighting on here. You both are wonderful sources of information. Eyespy you obviously know alot about herps, as you've proven in many a post, so don't defend yourself. And Chris, I was thinking the same as you, that many herps is unlike anything I've ever heard of in any clinic or rescue. Like WAY more than the biggest rescues combined. But let's not fight. Please. If you want to continue this please take it to your own mail boxes. Us "less than 10 years experience" guys/gals don't want to watch our favorite sources of info go at it.

Let's just all get along.

Cheers,
Garrett

[yellermelon]

yer jumping to some wrong conclutions about eyespy there, guy. When my beardie got sick with a fungus last year and my vet coudnt' fix it she found me a vet down near here in north carolina that sends stuff up there to their labs. He did a couple biopsies and sent her the slides. Sure enough he had the dreaded yellow fungus disease. eyespy ran a bunch of the labs herself and found it got into his guts and liver.

eyespy's rescue saved my beardie with the help of Penn even though they dind't see nuthing but a couple scales and a frozen bit of liver and blood and stuff. Not every critter she saves walks through her doors. Lots are just samples and stuff. Some of the folks go a long time without ever seeing a living breathing critter. I called Penn to see if my Buddy was listed as a patient. He weren't, cuz he dind't see any of their docs. but i can send ya bills that show he got his labs done there.

she helps lots of people here and for her troubles some idiots are cussin out her friends over the phone and somebody hacked her website. you people should be ashamed.

[LISA127]

wow!

[gfisher2002]

Originally posted by yellermelon

she helps lots of people here and for her troubles some idiots are cussin out her friends over the phone and somebody hacked her website. you people should be ashamed.

This stuff happened over this arguement in this thread?
I sure hope not. That would definately be grounds for being banned. I hope nobody here has made personal attacks on eyespy through her website or on the phone. Arguing on a forum is one thing but when you get into someones personal life, you're playing with fire. If it happened to me it would only happen once. You never know what kind of person is sitting behind that computer.

I hope this is resolved quickly and quietly, because, I don't know about everyone else, but this sh*t is NOT what I'm all about. I hate seeing two so informative and intelligent people biting at eachother's necks. Shake and make up. :)

Cheers,
Garrett

[eyespy]

Yes, it's true. Phone numbers and IPs are being traced and I am still deciding whether I will be filing criminal charges. Confidential medical records were accessed and some were deleted. Some person(s) used phone numbers on those records to place harassing calls. Those records were the joint property of myself, the vet of record and the animals' owners so more charges may be filed later if those people choose to do so.

[Grant vg]

You've got to be kidding me??

I sure hope those phone numbers and IP addy's turn out to be Chris' (for your sake..anyways) because those are some pretty big "implied" accusations your throwing around.

Perhaps you should mention that the phone calls took place yesterday (sunday) before all this began.

And shall i add that if "smarts" were measured by knowledge of computers and hacking.....Chris would have a peanut for a brain!! (haha Chris...I couldn't resist!)

See you at the court hearing bud!!! hahaha.

geeze............................................. ..too funny.

and Lisa.... take all this debating into consideration and draw your own conclusions. Not everyone will agree on the best way to do things.

[eyespy]

Had I known the phone calls took place starting Sunday I definitely would not have voiced my suspicions so strongly. Chris, I owe you an apology for that. I've spent enough time on the web to know that lurkers often are the culprits.

I didn't learn when the first phone call took place until the person who received it came to visit me this evening. I learned about 10:00 pm tonight that at least one of the calls was placed from California.

[marisa]

<img src="http://8snakes.myftp.org/marisa/boxturt.jpg">

Marisa
P.S. Apologies in advance. I tried to resist but I couldn't help trying to bring this thread back down to earth guys. :D

[Dani33]

LOL Marisa!

[gfisher2002]

lol funny stuff Marisa. Did you make that?

[Linds]

LOL great pic Marisa :p

Originally posted by SCReptiles
What is yout take on the hay?

I would definitely be concerned using hay in a damp environment. I've worked with A LOT of hay throughout my life to know that it molds very easy when wet.

Originally posted by eyespy
Yes, that is very true that they encounter the stuff in the wild, but only wild-caught boxies have such immunities. Herps are not born with any immunities since they get no blood from their mothers. It is only by encountering and fighting off pathogens in their daily life that they acquire antibodies.

If these animals are exposed to these pathogens day to day in captivity then it wouldn't really be any different from the wild in that they still form some sort of resistance to their surroundings. I keep my animals in far from sterile conditions so they do build up some sort of tolerance (mind you they aren't living in their own filth). Any healthy animal is capable of building up resistances if it is exposed to a controlled amount IMHO.

[tHeGiNo]

LMAO, this is the funniest thread I have ever seen in my life. So this whole time, EyeSpy was a fake eh? I think she is making that whole hacking bullish up.

[gfisher2002]

I'm a fake too. Really I'm a midget with no toes and an IQ of 58. I like to pretend I have animals and a life but I don't. I live mostly in My Maytag box behind the Walmart and have no friends. Will someone please be my friend? Please??!!

I'm so lonely. 'sigh'

[meow_mix450]

lmao ha ha wow.........:p

Meow