Maternal incubation

[672]

Does maternal incubation succeed in reproducing balls often, if so, how would you go upon doing this?(temparatures and stuff like that)

[mykee]

Maternal incubation means you let the mother incubate her eggs after she's laid them instead of taking them from her and doing it yourself. Your question was a tad confusing, care to re-ask it?

[Tim_Cranwill]

In the wild, ball pythons only use maternal incubation. However, in captivity, I'd say most breeders don't allow the eggs to be maternally incubated. Mostly a control thing. As far as temps and such, the female would likely lay her eggs on the warm side and she would maintian the temps needed to incubate the eggs. They know what to do all on their own....

[672]

So there's actually no need to remove the eggs from the mother, since they will hatch anyway without problems?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Maternal sucks for Ball Pythons. It take a TON out of the females, too many things can go wrong, and artificial is so damn easy, the question is moot.

Maternal is helpful for snakes like Chondros where the eggs can be tricky to hatch, and we don't fully understand how to incubate them. But Ball eggs are so simple, even a monkey could do it (and some do!) it makes maternal an obsolete subject.

[Derrick]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Maternal sucks for Ball Pythons. It take a TON out of the females, too many things can go wrong, and artificial is so damn easy, the question is moot.

Maternal is helpful for snakes like Chondros where the eggs can be tricky to hatch, and we don't fully understand how to incubate them. But Ball eggs are so simple, even a monkey could do it (and some do!) it makes maternal an obsolete subject.

Its not moot to someone whos not breeding for profit and would like to do things the way nature intended in the hopes of adding a few more snakes to thier collection.

[Tim_Cranwill]

If you want to do things as in nature, don't keep your ball pythojns in a box. :) There's no way to do the "natural" thing in captivity. Keeping them captive isn't natural.... :)

[Derrick]

hehe ya I knew some one would say that as soon as i hit the post button:). But you get what I mean. If you're breeding to sell it would be silly to go the maternal way but if not there is no harm in giving it a shot.

[Tim_Cranwill]

So you're just breeding and putting your snake through the whole process for... ???? Your own entertainment? To see if you can do it? Why bother breeding if you're not going to do what you can to ensure the eggs hatch????

[Derrick]

well i was just hoping to get this back on topic. Its already been said maternal is isnt the best way to go but maybe someone has some info that may be of help with out totally dismissing the whole idea.

the only time I've come across any info on maternal was at this here http://www.morelia.ca/jbreed.htm . It's with JCPs but its someplace to start

[eyespy]

It's not unusual for mothers to eat the neonates. That in itself is a good reason not to keep the eggs in with mom.

[mykee]

Maternal will work for the most part, tricky though. Real hard on the mom. Why put her through that? Not cool. If you can own a BP and be responsible enough to breed them, you can be responsible enough to incubate the eggs yourself.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its not moot to someone whos not breeding for profit and would like to do things the way nature intended in the hopes of adding a few more snakes to thier collection.

Funny, I NEVER even mentioned profit. Hmmm...thanks, that's ANOTHER reason.

Thanks for the help! :D

[Ron]

When my female BP laid her eggs last year she had lost a third of her weight. I wanted to get those eggs away from her ASAP so I could get her feeding right away. Now why would you want to let your female sit around without eating for another 2 months after she has gone through the ordeal of producing eggs.

[jfmoore]

Someone said “It's not unusual for mothers to eat the neonates.” That shouldn’t be an issue with ball pythons.

There’s someone over on the Ball Python Forum on Kingsnake who claims he uses only maternal incubation. He posted a picture of an albino wrapped around a clutch this year, so I guess he doesn’t have any qualms about it. He posts under the name BallBoutique and would probably be happy to talk to you about it.

I think everybody should try it at least once as long as the female is in good shape going into it (and you wouldn’t be breeding her if she wasn’t, right?). Some females just refuse to resume feeding, or feed in such a desultory fashion, until around 60 days pass anyway, that it’s little additional hardship. And it is a lot of fun to observe her behavior and then see the babies’ heads emerge from her coils.

I came home from a long trip once on April 2nd to find a female already coiled around 9 eggs, and I wasn’t sure how many days previously she had laid them. So, figuring it might be tough to get her feeding right away, I left the eggs with her. During incubation, I took her off the eggs eight times to weigh both her and them; she always went eagerly right back around them. On April 4th, she weighed 1725 grams. When the first egg pipped on May 26th, she weighed 1719 grams, a loss of only 6 grams. Amazing! I never saw her drink, but surely she must have. All 9 eggs hatched successfully. Okay, I left out one little detail. So that I wouldn’t have to worry about constantly monitoring the temperature in her cage, I stuck the mother with her eggs into a big incubator. The following year, this female produced 8 eggs, all of which hatched (without her help this time). One of her offspring from the 9-egg clutch produced 17 eggs this year.

-Joan

[Jeff_Favelle]

long as the female is in good shape going into it (and you wouldn’t be breeding her if she wasn’t, right?). Some females just refuse to resume feeding, or feed in such a desultory fashion, until around 60 days pass anyway, that it’s little additional hardship

This will be my NINTH season breeding Ball Pythons and I have never seen that. In fact, within a week of laying their eggs, I found those females Ball Pythons to be the best feeders ever. Ever single time. Not sure where you get your information, or if you are just making it up.

[eyespy]

jfmoore, in 2002 my friend who runs a herp and avian vet practice had 19 females brought in for nutritional workups after they ate their neonates because the owners were afraid they did it to make up for a lack of calcium, protein, what have you.

It does happen fairly often and no significant nutritional imbalances were picked up in most cases.

[jfmoore]

If this is “fairly common” for ball pythons, I would say that is EXTREMELY significant and should be broadcast far and wide. I’ve never seen anything in the literature about that. Did your friend ever publish anything about it, say in an ARAV publication?

Nineteen female ball pythons in a captive situation(s) were being allowed to do maternal incubation? Do you know any more of the circumstances? For instance, were these wild-caught animals in already debilitated condition? How many days were the neonates allowed to remain in with their mothers, or did the owner(s) try to removed them as soon as they left the eggs? Were the brooding females housed individually or communally?

I’ve always felt that the artifice of captivity can produce many anomalies, both in behavior and conditions, simply because the confines of the cage preclude escape (i.e., cannibalism; non-stop combat between males; explosion of mite populations). And cannibalism during feeding sessions due to carelessness of keepers is well-known. I’ve also seen live-bearers eat the infertile masses they have passed, but scrupulously leave the (moving) neonates alone. I don’t know what would have happened if I had left the mothers and young caged together for extended periods, however.

More information, please!

Joan

[eyespy]

You really don't get that kind of detail from owners most times, and when you do patient privacy laws in the state of Pennsylvania preclude publishing them except for educational purposes to licensed healthcare professionals, unfortunately.

Anyhow, 19 cases isn't a large enough sampling to be considered "publishable" by most journals. Cannibalism has been documented sporadically for many years, so it's not a groundbreaking enough case to override the statistical sampling standards.

[jfmoore]

Sorry, I was unclear. When I said, “I’ve never seen anything in the literature about that,” I meant about brooding ball pythons eating the resultant hatchlings, not about your friend’s specific case(s).