Overfed adult colubrids....

[MarcB]

Are we feeding our full grown adults way too much?

A few observation with my animals, in 2002, I had 2 full grown female hondurans give me clutches of fertile eggs and slugs. These females were fed heavely from wake up in the spring to copulation and egg laying. I beleive the general consensus to be standard heavy feeding out of brumation in order to stimulate ovulation.

This year I fed all my breeding females a maintenance diet out of brumation consisting of one rodent of appropriate size every 7 to 10 days. The females all produced fertile clutches and very few slugs compared to previous year.

I've discussed this experience with a few keepers who beleive we are feeding way too much and too often and consequently affecting egg production.

I realize this represents a very small pooling sample to conclude anything but wanted any insight/comments/arguments on the poorly understood adult colubrid feeding regime.

Thanks for reading

[crimsonking]

I think you'll find the "smaller" breeder to feed much more agressively than the "larger" one simply because it's much easier to feed/overfeed a small number of snakes. In my case, I have kept with weekly feedings for the entire life of the snake and have neither skinny nor obese snakes. I may have to wait an extra year to get mine to breeding size, but I am in no hurry. Perhaps if I produced more rodents, I would feed more often. When I have an abundance of food items, my snakes get treated to extras. I do see a lot of overfed (to me) snakes lately. Some novice keepers tend to think that they should feed as often as possible and sometimes huge meals. I believe some just like to watch the whole thing and end up feeding more often out of the "thrill" they get from it. -you've heard..."Wow, my corn just ate two huge rats!"...
Some of my yearlings look like they're hatchlings compared with others' snakes. I honestly feel an overweight animal is not the best choice for breeding. I also believe the breeding life of the animal is shortened. MHO.
:Mark

[Vanan]

Good posts both of you. :) I agree with most of your points.

Also we've seen too many breeder animals which we've received from others, who've had fatty lumps galore! the worst case was an albino male corn who looked like he had two "balls" at his cloaca. I mean two big tumour like growths which looked like they would be where testicles would be on a snake, if they had them! Kid you not! Upon the intial aspiration, we found fats. Gloops and gloops of fat. I wish a had a digicam then to have pics of it in my archives. It was more than disgusting. Presumably from whoever it was, having fed it as much as they'd feed a breeding female and since males don't use up fat much... I mean this thing was shorter than 4ft and thick as a rope! Very stunted and obese. And people think that they can get away with it, just cos corns are more active than boids.

[reverendsterlin]

I feed my young snakes fairly heavy, but adults other than breeding females are on 10 day schedules. Older snakes can't use the calories for growth like the young ones and will turn it to fat. lol, while it's fun watching them eat, I prefer the money I save on food when they hit mostly full size anyway.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Personally I feed my adult colubrids out of brumation small meals, but a bit close together, usually every 6-8 days. Being that they have not ate in 14-16 weeks they have to get used to meals again. After they gain some weight , I start to increase the meals and feed every 10-14 days after they have gained some healthy weight. Same applies to females while gravid and after given birth.

For young snakes, I try to feed them smaller meals as well to start off on, and about every week or so as well. After a bit of growth into adulthood I decrease how often they are fed. All my snakes get an apropiate sized sized meals for their size, such as a 6' foot boa gets a couple med rats every 10-14 days, an adult Cali King a full grown mouse or equal sized rat every 10-14 days. They all have good healthy weight, make it through brumation for nearly 4 months in good condition and generally perfect for what they get.

[dr greenlove]

Hi there, long time lurker here:)


I just felt that i had to put my tuppence worth into the pot (so to speak).

In my opinion it is very easy to overfeed our animals. But it is quite difficult (assuming that aren't some kind of sicko) to deliberatley starve them.

By nature they would appear to be designed to survive on whatever (little?) comes their way. In captivity they get lots of food and not really that much excersise...(kinda like most people these days;) ).

I think erring on the side of caution has got to be better than just chucking in whatever they will eat as often as they will eat it (im not saying that this is done...just making a point)

Anyway.

Back to lurking i will go.....

[eyespy]

Pop out of the shadows more often, dr greenlove, that was a great post!

[MouseKilla]

I'm still trying to imagine the snake with a set of nuts LOL! That's too funny.

[Simon]

To be honest I feel the same way as MarcB, crimsonking and Vanan.

That is why most of my adults are on a 10-14 feeding schduel. I also take the females out to 'excercise' a bit. Kathy taught me a way on how to take them out once in a while and basically make them run (curl) on the palm of my hands. This helps them 'excercise' a bit and decreases the chance of getting any egg bound. So everyday I take a few of the adults out and just make them move. At least they're getting a bit of a run. I dont think that I have too many fat snakes right now. But I too have seen a few with a lot of fat deposits...

[Simon Sansom]

Excellent posts, everyone!

Welcome, dr. greenlove. I agree, you definitely shouldn't be lurking!

I honestly feel that most of our snakes are far too obese. When you find a snake in the wild, it's usually not stuffed with fat deposits, is it? I find that wild snakes are usually "lean 'n mean".

I have also started to feed my colubrids a bit less than usual.
Looks like a trend.

Cheers!

Simon

[Ace]

But I too have seen a few with a lot of fat deposits...

I just like to make some people aware that lumps on a snake are not always fat deposits. I recently lost Angel to what I thought were fat deposits. I took her to the vet to be examined because her "fat deposits" were increasing in size and area even though she wasn't eating and was loosing wieght. She was diagnosed with a strep infection causing her "glands" to swell on the lower half of her body. Long story short....she died of a hemorhhage while at the vet for observation.(still waiting on biopsy results). So, lumps can be a sign of infection in snakes too. Here's a pic of what Angel's lumps looked like before she passed.
http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/1033Angellumps-med.jpg
It was taken around her vent area.

Thanks for looking

[Vanan]

Sorry to hear about your snake Ace. Guess it's one of those thing you can't really do much about.

As for being able to tell if they're fatty lumps, well if you get ones which DON'T grow then you can almost be sure. Also usually the general condition of the snake itself will tell ya. If the snake's tame and is very limp in your hands. Cos "buff" snakes are pretty hard and not soft and squishy.

I also noticed that most of the fat snakes I've seen have been the really tame ones which just go limp in your hands. The ones which attitudes tend to get more exercise when they tense up I guess. :)

[Invictus]

I think underfed snakes are way more common and way more tragic than overfed ones. We try to feed all of our adults every 7 days, and they get big meals - even our little 4 foot miami corn gets gets two HUGE mice every week. She is so slender it's like holding a noodle. :) If I saw any fat deposits happening, I'd definitely cut back though.

[marisa]

I can't stand seeing people overfeeding kings and corns. These are active snakes and in the wild I have never seen one so fat as most peoples in captivity. Again not saying its wrong, but I feel most people feed their corns WAY too much in the long run.

I feed anything under a year old quite often. But once they are a year or older the males get fed twice per month (1 prey item) and the females get fed once per week. I don't want any fatty *anything* even happening in the first place because I have heard once they are there they sometimes don't go away (fatty lumps) but I am not sure if this is true.

I believe thinner males are normally better breeders as well. Is this true from what most of you have seen/experienced/learned?

Marisa

[marisa]

Oh yeah also our Mexican Black kingsnake has a couple lumps like Vanan mentioned.

Even though he is fed normally now, they haven't decreased in size.

Marisa

[Ace]

.Sorry to hear about your snake Ace

Thanks Vanan, it was really hard when she first passed away. She was the first specific phase of snake I actually searched for.

As for being able to tell if they're fatty lumps, well if you get ones which DON'T grow then you can almost be sure

From what the Vet had told me, the snakes glands are from about mid body to about the vent. Any lumps concentrated in just this area should be suspect of possible infection. She also told me the swelling will be somewhat symetrical down the length of the side body.

I think underfed snakes are way more common and way more tragic than overfed ones

I think I'd have to side with Dr. Greenlove here. By they're very nature, you would have to severley neglect it to underfeed it.

[Classic]

My Tangerines that are currently in their winters nap are large hondos. My male was a rescue from a lady that was feeding 1-2 mice per week and his scales were unhealthy looking and dull. He was also very thin. I immediately put him on 1-2 medium size rats/9-11 days and he jumped from 600 grams to 1150 grams in 6 months. He now is very shinny and healthy looking. My female is also 1140 grams but both these animals are long and able to distribute the weight very nicely. These were the weights at the onset of burmation for this season. Another female tang that is burmating is much shorter and very thick. She will be with the same male as already mentioned. I will post some pics when i get the chance and will keep you updated as to the results.