How do you get creamcicles?

[MouseKilla]

There are so many morphs these days it's hard to keep it straight what makes what. I was told a Great Plains Rat crossed with an albino Corn makes creamcicles. Is that right??

[reverendsterlin]

amelanistic strain created by crossing corns with Great Plains rat snake E.g. emoryi bloodlines

[MouseKilla]

So is that a no??? You lost me.

[marisa]

That is a yes. They are "hybrids"

Marisa

[mikem]

from your local grocers freezer! :)

[MouseKilla]

Of course the combination I mentioned is some kind of hybrid but do those two make creamsicles? Anyone know?

[marisa]

Yes that is what I am saying to you. A creamsicle is made using those snakes.

Marisa

[Bartman]

mmmmmmmmm
:)

[MouseKilla]

Perfect! Sorry, I'm a little slow.

[MouseKilla]

Is it still a creamsicle if you cross the GP Rat with a snow corn?

[vanderkm]

A creamsicle is an amelanistic result of breeding great plains ratsnake genes into corns because the great plains ratsnake has less red in it than the cornsnake, so the yellow coloration is less obscured by red.

A cross of a great plains rat with an albino corn will not give you creamsicles though - it will produce normal appearing offspring (often termed rootbeer corns because they are a bit browner toned than normal corns) that are het for the amelanisitic (albino) gene. These have to be bred to albino corns or to each other to get the creamsicle (amelanistic) coloration in the next generation.

Breeding a great plains ratsnake to a snow will give you rootbeers that are het for amelanistic and anery A genes of corns. When those offspring are bred together they have a chance of producing creamsicle, rootbeer and what have been called snowcreams (look pretty much like snow corns) - depending on how the genes sort out.

People use the term creamsicle or some variation of it to identify that a line of snakes is intergraded between great plains rats and corns, but it typically refers to the orangish amelanistic version. Many creamsicles are bred from long lines of creamsicles without new introduction of great plains ratsnake genes.

To complicate everything, there is an albino gene in great plains ratsnakes, but it is quite rare (and expensive) so while there is some chance that a normal great plains rat could carry that albino gene and produce creamsicles in a first generation cross, it is quite unlikely.

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

I was wondering how it could possibly occur in the first generation because of the absence of an amelanistic gene on the part of the Rat snake. The way I heard it was if you cross a GPRat with an albino corn you will get creamsicles. After doing some homework I learned that you can't have amelanistic offspring without both parent animals being at least het for amelanism. DUH! The problem has been though that until you explained it I still couldn't figure out exactly how they are produced. So it looks like I'm going to be a generation away from what I thought I was trying to breed this season but that's alright, I'm sure we'll learn a lot from doing it anyway and end up with a few different varieties in the long run. Anyone know of a good corn gentics site or better yet a book?

[vanderkm]

The best site for genetics info on corns that I am aware of is http://www.serpwidgets.com/cornsnakes/default.html - lots of background material on genetics basics as well as color and pattern inheritance info. There is also a downloadable genetics calculator that allows you to calculate what morphs you will get from various different breedings that is great to use. I got it through a link on Kathy Love's site (Micks Cornsnake Progeny Predictor).

So you must have a great plains ratsnake then - any chance of sharing photos. We have a female that we bought as GPRat that we are incorporating into our creamsicle program this year but I would be very interested to see more examples of them,

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

Yes, I do have an adult male GP Rat and I'm picking up the female Snow Corn tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to have them both probed by someone that knows what they're doing just to verify the sexes then start cooling them both immediately. We're excited to get started on our first breeding project and hopefully it all works out. I've already spent the better part of a day downloading that progeny predictor (we're in the dark ages over here, running at 28.8, good God I need a new computer!) and it's handy but it didn't have the option to add the Emoryi. I stumbled on serpentwidgets myself and learned quite a bit about the basics of recessive traits and so on. I'll get some pics of the GP Rat and get them dropped to a CD (my ancient relic here has no USB port) so I can upload them... if I can figure out how to get a pic down to the 25 K you need to attach them..? Anyhow, he's a cool looking animal (for some reason non-herpers that come by the house often ask if he's a rattler LOL! Who knows why.) He is very tame and seems to have no use for a hide, he's got one of those plastic fake rock hides which he lays on top of most of the time.

[lizardmom]

ohh you from da shwa,, where you gettin you snake-just curious,,
lizardmom

[MouseKilla]

Which snake? The GP Rat or the Snow Corn?

[vanderkm]

On the progeny predictor I just treat the Great Plains Rat as a normal corn - even though they have quite a bit reduced red, I don't believe they act as a form of anerythristic, although I could be wrong about that. The progeny in corn crosses certainly look like normal corns with a browner tint to the saddles. I suspect a lot of what circulates through pet stores as normal corns has some creamsicle influence as they are quite common here.

As far as attaching the photo, I find it easiest to upload the picture to your gallery and then link to it from the post - lets you put a bigger picture in. Looking forward to seeing your guy. We are picking up the female we have from friends in a week or so and will post photos when we get her before cooling,

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

yeah hopefully I can figure out this uploading business, there's obviously a way to do it LOL!

I had considered actually substituting the GP Rat with anerythristic in the progeny predictor but I figured that wasn't right because otherwise people would just make the creamsicles with those. I didn't consider normal either just because it was missing the red pigment, couldn't decide whether that meant anerythristicism or not ??. I am starting to uderstand the most basic gentic stuff but I still don't quite understand what the influence of the GP Rat is on the corn genes.

Also, what is the minimum weight of sexual maturity for corns (mainly interested in the females)? I know that they're supposed to be there by their second winter but that means very little if you haven't had them since hatching and don't know how it's been eating and so on. The reason I ask is that the 2 corns I have are at least that old but the GP Rat is way bigger. The corns are between 2 and 3 feet, the GP Rat is 4+ and way thicker in the body. I don't know if this is just a difference in between corns and rats or what. Help a rookie breeder out lol!

[vanderkm]

We are pretty much in the category of rookie breeder ourselves, but as far as body weight for female corns - I have been relying on 300 grams as a good baseline, though I believe some people have produced clutches from smaller females. I want our girls to exceed 3 feet in length and weigh at least 300 gms before breeding, but would not pass on breeding a smaller female if I knew she was over 3 years of age because I think some lines end up smaller naturally. Size for males is not an issue unless they are so small as to be intimidated - sounds like yours is a big male for a GPRat.

It is my understanding that GPRats coloration doesn't show the reds of corns, but that it is not anerythristic because the saddle color is still brownish indicating red pigments are present in the skin - unlike the anery corns (though some of them have faded saddles that look brownish especially in the centre). I think some of the features of the saddle shape and the markings down the sides may be more useful in distinguishing true Great Plains rats from anery corns - I still have doubts about the female we have being a true GPRat, so that is why I am quite interested in seeing photos of others.

Good luck with the breeding efforts,

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

I have now measured and weighed them and the female is about four feet long and about 550-600g (confirmed that she's a girl too!) The male GP Rat is about 4.5 ft and a chubby 1200g. I didn't realize how much bigger rat snakes get. The male is going down for cooling tonight and the female is getting a feeding or two first, then a break, then cooling. Hopefully it all works out properly and we get our first clutch this spring, we're virgins at it so we're super excited. I'll get working on the picture business too, I have some on the camera, just have to take it to a friend's place to put them on CD for me...