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View Full Version : Thamnophis radix "haydeni" PIC


Vanan
11-06-03, 01:03 PM
Just thought I'd share some pics of the only plains garter I photographed this fall. The rest were just tails going down the dens.

The taxonomy of T. r. "haydeni" is still up in the air. Some say both ssp ( T. r. radix and T. r. haydeni) are one and the same. Some are insistent about the distinction.


The reason why they were segregated was due to the fact that the western "race" exhibited brighter colours and very prominent orange dorsal stripe. The one pictured is not the brightest of specimens and not very orange all the way down, but still gives you a hint of what I'm talking about. The eastern "race" tends to have more of a yellow dorsal stripe.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196pgarter1.jpg">

Another very important reason why they are thought to be different is that "haydeni" show 21 scale rows across the neck and the nominate ssp shows 19. Normally it would only be the mid body scale rows which are counted.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196pgarter4.jpg">

The reason for me bringing this up, aside from the chance to post pics (Hee hee), is to see if anyone else know more about this taxonomical debate. I've been looking for info on the most current change and haven't turned up anything conclusive yet. Also if anyone on here, has seen and noticed how many scale rows there are on the eastern "race's" neck, or have noticed anything else different about the 2 ssp of T. radix, please feel free to contribute.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196pgarter3.jpg">

In any case, might give some of you out there something to think about. :)

Vanan
11-06-03, 01:06 PM
P.S. The greenish look is not due to the snake itself but more of my camera's spastic problem in renditioning colours in the shade. :)

JD@reptiles
11-06-03, 01:30 PM
cool snake man! nice find. i love the plains garters. they have such a nice coloured stripe. thats one of the things i wanted to find when i was there! oh well. Steve gave me a dead one he found on the road, lol.

Jeff_Favelle
11-06-03, 05:07 PM
I love how that stripe changes colors as you go down the snake!! Cool!

Scott Wahlberg
11-06-03, 09:54 PM
Awesome pic dude never get tired of thamnophis pics. He sure does look similar to the Western Ribbons Thamnophis Proximus Proximus, that I see down here in Houston.Scott Wahlberg

Clownfishie
11-06-03, 10:41 PM
Those are some awesome pics! :D Thanks for sharing Vanan...

TheRedDragon
11-06-03, 11:15 PM
Wow Vanan! You always find some awesome looking colubrids!!

Removed_2815
11-07-03, 12:13 AM
Here's an unidentified Thamnophis that I encountered in Missouri.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2985plains_garter_snake.jpg
Enjoy!
Nice pics Vanan...
RMB

Tim_Cranwill
11-07-03, 12:14 AM
Nice pics guys!

Linds
11-07-03, 01:08 AM
Wicked pics!! :D

Vanan
11-07-03, 11:00 AM
Found another pic of a western plains we found on another occasion (earlier during summer). Note the orange stripe again.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196plains2.jpg">

This one was too squirmy to get any proper shots but you can still see what I mean by orange.

Ryan, that looks like a radix to me but that red stripe throws me off. But I'm pretty sure it's a radix and not an eastern. Hmm...have to look up scalation again.

Edit: My bad. It IS an eastern (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) because the lateral stripe is on scale rows 3 and 4 not 2 and 3 for radix.

Sean_.E.
11-10-03, 08:04 PM
Very interesteing. Vanan, that stripe is phenomenally orange!

JD@reptiles
11-10-03, 09:54 PM
looks kinda like that "ribbon" snake you sold me sean, lol :p

Sean_.E.
11-11-03, 10:14 PM
LOL Jordan, I didn't even look at the snake, It was a friends. Do you still have it?

JD@reptiles
11-11-03, 10:20 PM
hehe, just buggin ya man. yeah i still have it. its doing great

Vanan
11-11-03, 10:24 PM
Ok you got me curious now. So what did the "ribbon" turn out to be?

eyespy
11-11-03, 10:49 PM
The folks at Penn teach that there are no subspecies of T. radix. Isolated instances of haydenii type snakes have supposedly been found well outside of "western" plains natural range. DNA testing on these guys as compared with "true haydenii" suggest it's a mutation rather than a strong genetic trait to have those extra scales.