Thread closed? (forbidden discussion topics)

[MouseKilla]

A thread with a discussion of Christianity was recently closed because it wandered into the forbidden areas of religion and politics.I don't quite understand why these areas of discussion are not permitted, particularly in a "General Discussion" part of the site, but that's none of my business, the rules are the exclusive prerogative of the operators, I would never dispute that. The difficulty I have is that it isn't clear what "religion & politics" exactly means. A while back a post was hi-lighted marked "important!!" and kept at the top of the first page in the General Discussion area. This post was VERY political. It was in regards to guardianship pet laws. What could possibly be more political than a proposed law?? Laws ARE politics. The thread was something that was relevant to all herpers, regardless of what an individual's opinion on it was. The point is that herp keeping in itself is an activity that has a definite political side to it, laws regarding the hobby are frequently discussed on this site without any suggestion that these discussions are offensive. So simply saying "no politics" is sort of meaningless in my view and it seems to result in the arbitrary closing of threads. The same is true when saying "no religion". There were many 9/11 anniversary threads with many responces that had discussions of Islam and other faiths as well as general discussion on morality. Morality also comes up in the discussion of herp keeping in general (most frequently I've found on the topic of how to put down prey items. Is it cruel to feed live mice? Is it cruel to freeze rodents to death? Cruelty is a moral subject.) The reality is that it's impossible to seperate these topics from the threads that are actually about herp keeping let alone the general discussion area. As I have already said I respect the operator's right to make whatever rules they like and I'll obey them to the full extent of my ability (do you realize how hard it is not to swear sometimes?LOL) I would just ask that they are clear and evenly applied. If you can't discuss politics then there should be no discussion of laws of any kind. If you can't discuss religion, (which is actually just a form of existential philosophy), then it follows that discussions on the morality of different herp related topics (like how you kill a rat) also can't be allowed. The problem with having these blanket rules is that they cannot be evenly applied and the result is that they aren't enforced at all in some cases but they are unfairly applied in others. I think the goal is to stay away from fighting and stupid bickering that hot topics can sometimes bring. I think that the way to do that is to just ban personal attacks or threats of any kind directed at other members, anything else is just too complicated. These rules seem to translate in practice to "no debate", maybe that is closer to what is intended, but I hope not. Debating and attacking or insulting are different things and that's where the distinction logically should be made. It's much easier to understand that than to try to decipher what the words "political" and "religious" mean. Sorry for the long rant but I am quite confused about this.

[JonD]

Politics.....we have to live with :( Religion.....we don't:) Both are topics that there is no right and wrong, only grey areas between extremes. I'd personally like to not see any post on either of these subjects.;)

[lordkovacs]

i understand what mousekilla has said. the reason that such topics are banned is because SOME people don't understand the art of "debate". They resort to name-calling, defamation, and are just plain ignorant. If everyone knew how to stay on-topic, and argue with factual information, I think there would be no need to have any sort of limits to what can be discussed. however, that isn't the case. We do still have people that aren't inclined to debate properly. oh well...
good post mousekilla.

[daver676]

Originally posted by JonD
Politics.....we have to live with :( Religion.....we don't:) Both are topics that there is no right and wrong, only grey areas between extremes. I'd personally like to not see any post on either of these subjects.;)

You got it!

[T.O-SK8TER]

I agree, its something you can not change there thoughts or beliefs on!

[MouseKilla]

Religions are systems of ethics and morals. Ethics and morals are discussed all the time on this site both in herp related areas and the general discussion area. I gave examples that illustrated how it's impossible to totally ban these things without banning discussion altogether. Does it not make a whole lot more sense to say that you can discuss what you like as long as you aren't insulting or threatening? I would sooner see a rule that says that says that the first time you attack another member you will be banned for life. This is something that we can all understand, what exists now is too ambiguous in my view.

[JonD]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Religions are systems of ethics and morals. Religions are clubs that people join to feel secure about our purpose in life...... see now this post will be closed because alot of people don't share this view and might be offensive to some religious members here!!!! Nothing personal here....:)

[AshleyL]

Originally posted by JonD
Politics.....we have to live with :( Religion.....we don't:) Both are topics that there is no right and wrong, only grey areas between extremes. I'd personally like to not see any post on either of these subjects.;)

this is why you're my hero...lol. I don't understand why people feel the need to bring up such topics on herp forums. There are other, more appropriate, places to debate these issues.

[lordkovacs]

ditto... that's a great point. religion is more then ethics and morals though. For some it's a way of life. It is what runs their everyday lives, from the decision to not drink milk, to practicing various other rituals. Therefore, if I was in that category, which I'm not, I might get a little aggressive if someone argues that what I have based my life on for the past 25 years is completely false. I believe I can have a debate with ANYONE on ANY topic, until I am insulted or made to feel like a lesser person in any way. In that situation, I lose all interest, and respect. I hope I was clear... I'm in the middle of writing report cards! haha...
cheers

[lordkovacs]

and, i don't see why non herp stuff can't be discussed. I mean, look at all the people you have met online... are you saying that the only thing you want to associate with these people is about snakes and lizards? I personally enjoy the general board cause I like to learn more about the people I am talking to. IMHO of course!

[J-Man]

JonD.... your post is different than any religious post I've seen.... that I can recall.

I haven't seen a religious post presume something about somebody else's beliefs like that. It's usually (almost always) about the beliefs of the person posting.

DISCLAIMER: If there ARE religious posts attacking somebody else's beliefs then they SHOULD be shut down as it could cause a heated argument and I'm sure it has no purpose.

[T.O-SK8TER]

Originally posted by JonD
Religions are clubs that people join to feel secure about our purpose in life......

This is not the question here, and what an ignorant response, please moderators close down this thread its headed in a bad direction!

[AshleyL]

I didn't mean that you shouldn't talk about other things, but topics that are as volatile as religion and politics are likely to offend some people...people who are looking for info about their herps, not for religious/political doctrines. All I'm saying is that these things, although extremely important, are perhaps more appropriately discussed elsewhere.
I don't however think that IF these topics are brought up that they should be closed. If people feel that this is an appropriate place to discuss something, then they should be allowed to. We can't please everyone, but if there is a need to debate religion, I'm sure there are forums elsewhere to do so, but that's only what I think of course.
People, by nature disagree :)

[MouseKilla]

Oh come on! This is a discussion about the site itself, not a debate on the forbidden topics themselves. This thread isn't a debate on those things so what "bad direction" is this going in? Is discussing the rules of this site now forbidden too? What is wrong with a civilized debate especially if it directly relates to this site or the hobby it is centred around? If a discussion deteriorates into an insult contest then maybe then it should be shut down but it makes more sense to let those who want to have a rational, adult debate to do so and to remove the offending person. It isn't the topics that offend people, it's the people that insult instead of debate. Some people can debate any topic without resorting to childish attacks and I would say this group forms the vast majority of the membership of this site. There are also those that cannot be civil and respectful even if it is just a discussion on herpetology and I would say that these people are a tiny minority of the membership of this site. Instead of forbidding subjects why not just ban those who cross the line into insults and attacks?

[Corey Woods]

I'm not a religous person at all. Infact, I view most relegions as brain washing. Most religions you are told what you can and cannot do, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot think.....etc. However, a reptile site is NOT the place to discuss this.

I think the people of this site have lost sight of what is an acceptable topic of discussion. If the general forum was truly an "anything goes" type of forum then that means "everything goes". But, common sense would dictate that some topics aren't allowed. Some topics that come to mine are rape, torture, murder, child abuse, weird sex fantasies.....etc. This is just my personal view but this is a reptile site........it should be kept as close to reptile related as possible. I think that ANYTHING reptile related can be discussed and if you get the odd offtopic post such as the "Happy Birthday" posts, or "look at my new car"....etc can should be allowed but if you want to discuss other offtopic discussions please take them off the site or find another site relating to your topic.

Corey

[T.O-SK8TER]

This is true, JonD's remark was setting this thread up for disaster! Thess topics should not be discussed! We all know where it ends up cause there is no right or wrong answere!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I agree with Mouse completely. What makes me curious is why would someone who does not care to talk about Politics or religions click on the fourms that are stated what they are such as the one towards Chuck. What also boggles my mind is people who dont care to talk about it actually posting to the fourm. Complaining is easy to do, Not clicking is even easier..

[JonD]

Originally posted by T.O-SK8TER
This is true, JonD's remark was setting this thread up for disaster! Thess topics should not be discussed! We all know where it ends up cause there is no right or wrong answere! What I was doing was stating my view, of course people will get upset over it. That was my whole point. I am not trying to annoy people, just show how something said can be understood differently by different people. This topic is ingrained too deeply in people to have a light discussion about it.:rolleyes:

[marisa]

The other thing is some people seem to assume that these threads can be ignored by those who dont like them and that's that, they won't bother anyone. But the cause more work for Jeff and all the mods. Its not like o.k. ignore it if you dont like it and thats that...its another thread that the mods have to watch close in case someone goes nuts or a thread gets out of hand. Why should Mods from a reptile site have to spend their time doing that when its not even reptile related?

Marisa

[Slannesh]

Every forum I have ever participated in or run myself has a "No politics or religion" clause.

The reason for it is people have beliefs. Nothing anyone says or does is going to change a persons religious or political beliefs and most people will react badly to having those beliefs challenged or belittled.

People will say things via the anonymity of the internet that they would never say to someone's face. That makes the Trolls much braver and more apt to be offensive. There are a lot of topics that skirt the line. But at the end of the day this is a forum for discussing Herp and herp related stuff. If you want do discuss religion or politics i'm certain there are many other places you can do that.

[MouseKilla]

Corey,

The problem with what you're saying is that you've arbitrarily decided that one kind of off topic debate is ok and another isn't. Again, instead of having all these complicated restrictions on topics why not just restrict insults and attacks? I have seen just as many (probably more actually) personal attacks in threads that are directly related to the herp keeping as I have seen in ones that are off topic and in the end isn't that what all the rules are there to stop? Sure people come here to learn about, buy, sell and trade herps only but this General Discussion area is more than that. It's a place where members can socialize with eachother. We know we all have one thing in common so it's natural to see what else we agree on and also what we don't. I want to point out that those who are only interested in strictly herp related topics have the whole remainder of the site to look at, no one is forcing anyone to read off topic posts or threads so why spoil it for the rest of us? If debate or off topic discussion is to be discouraged then what is the sense in even have a General Discussion area?

[T.O-SK8TER]

I think it was being pointed out that just these topics should not be discussed!

[MouseKilla]

T.O,

I have already illustrated why these subjects are impossible to avoid, read the original post again. People have strong beliefs about herp related topics also and it is therefore possible that some will get too emotional and stray from debate into insults, haven't we all witnessed that? Isn't it this behaviour that the operators are trying to prevent with these rules?

Marisa,

Isn't it more work for the mods to try to decide when something is a political discussion and when it isn't than to simply say that no personal attacks are allowed, anywhere, in any thread, on any topic? The way I see it is General Discussion, that is non-herp discussion must simply be banned altogether or you have to have clear rules about conduct within all the threads without making a distinction between topics.

[JonD]

Mouse,

The fact of the matter is that the topic of religion really does offend some people. This off topic forum's examples( favorite cars or music, or oh, I just saw two squirels doin' it on my neighbours fence) Music, cars and animals getting busy really don't offend a large group of people and nobody would disagree if I like Ferrari's. But, in one of my statements yes people disagreed with me and got angry because it didn't fit their values.;)

[MouseKilla]

The problem is, Jon, that as I showed earlier, you cannot isolate politics or religion as subjects. They are things that bleed into any and all other topics. People disagree on all sorts of subjects, strongly, but it isn't disagreement that insults and offends, it's personal attacks that do. I know people that are religious and others that aren't, both types are willing to discuss their point of view so long as they are not attacked for how they feel. Guys like Chuck for example have to defend their minority opinion but that doesn't mean he has the right to insult them nor they him. We already have a debate going here with people on both sides, neither side is insulting the other and that's good conversation. This conversation isn't a strictly political or religious one but it is lively enough that someone could get carried away and cross the line into the realm of insults. The rest of us can't control that so instead of making a new rule that says we can't discuss the site's rules why not just say anything goes but personal attacks? What is the point of discussion if no one can disagree or say contraversial things?

[JonD]

Well the thing is unless you are situated within a group, be it online or other place, that have the same beliefs as your self, discussion is futile. Everyone's beliefs are NOT going to be changed in a discussion. People want to get their point and views across. Discussion involves active listening and response. When religion is discussed, all parties involved respond, but don't listen unless they have similar views.

[Shane Tesser]

Here is the rules as they will be defined! Part of the Job as an administrator, or a Moderator is to deem what is suitable and what is not. Yes...its alot of work...i know..ive been here since the sites inception. As MouseKilla noted, alot of things can and will cross the line between politics and religon. Part of my job is to decide when its crossed the line to far. We as mods have been given the ability to decide what stays and what goes based on our definition of what is viewable, allowable, family oriented and generally in the best interest of the visitors to the site. We are not perfect...sometimes we make bad calls. Fortunately for us we have an admin team that understands that ppl make mistakes. I myself have made huge mistakes during the time this site has been up and running and ive used them to correct myself in future handling of problems.

As Corey pointed out, sometimes topics are let to slide as we deem them okay for the viewing public. The hard part of this job is sometimes deciding what is debate and what is an all out argument. Often its easier to just step in and say tone it down. But sometimes this doesnt work so we are forced to close the thread. I personally hate having to police anything, and having to move something that i think is unsuitable is sometimes an extremely hard decision for me. Often, behind the scenes in parts of the site that the rest of you cannot see, we as mods discuss and decide together. From there we take action.

We once thought about being a 100% herp only general room. But just like the chat room, we realized that this is a community of ppl who want to say happy birthday. Who want to be friends, who want to show off their new car...and yes, some want to relay their beliefs and political views. I guess before i ramble too long...my point is this. You can never 100% stray away from the two topics. But we can as a community try our best to get along first off...and secondly understand that sometimes mods will make rules that you wont like...just like life. I think what should be done instead of trying to rally the entire site to comment, is to simply ask one of us why something got closed or moved. I myself am available in the chat room...and or i check my emails regularily. I cannot speak for other mods 100% of the time, but i will try my best to give you a reason or definition as to why something was done...hope this makes sense.

As always, if anyone would like to contact me for this or any other questions regarding the site, please feel free to email me, Shane@ssnakess.com. I will reply as soon as i can :D

[Slannesh]

The bottom line is the owner of the site can make up whatever rules they like.

The obviously don't want to have to get involved with religious or political debates so it's against the rules to discuss. While I haven't gone over the usage agreement point by point i'm sure harrassing, threatening and demeaning comments are not allowed either. It's their sandbox, we just get to play here.

I do sort of agree that it's impossible to completely eliminate ANY political or religious talk of any kind, but that's not the point either. There are instances where politics could have a direct effect on our primary focus, herps. In that case i'm sure discussing the political aspect as it pertains to herps would be fine. But general political discussions are not. Why are you so hung up on wanting to talk about politics and religion on a Herp forum anyhow? That's the part I don't get.

[JoeBradley]

I was banned yesterday for discussing religion. The debate arose out of a thread were a young guy asked how snakes were demonized. The evolutionists and Christ bashers were given free reign to say what they wanted, but when I defended Christianity, immediately I was told we do not discuss this here. Why were the Christ bashers not told that before I posted? I do not know how the policy is written, but a “a not religious discussion” policy is not enforced. What is enforced is a no “pro Christian discussion.” I would like to point out that I have never started a religious thread, and the only time I have posted in them is to defend my beliefs when they are bashed by others. If there was truly a “no religious discussion” rule, then I would never have to defend my beliefs, and I would not be banned now. Thanks ------------Chuck (chuck@SCReptiles.com)

Correction....you were banned for your constant harassment of others on this site and your unwillingness to let a topic or argument die even after you had been warned by either the admin or moderators on this site. You have be warned several times and yet still can't seem to understand why you have been removed. Chuck, i think your a very smart individual. Your passion for herps shows and i think someone with your knowledge on the subject is a great asset. However your attitude for not obeying the rules of the site have made you a constant thorn in the side of the moderation staff. In the future i hope your able to one day come to a peace within yourself and find that its not necessary to bash or bother or intice others. Once you realize this, i think you'll be a greater person. Shane.

[MouseKilla]

Who cares if anyone changes their minds as a result of an adult, rational discussion? And if you truly believed that discussion was pointless then why have you posted to this thread several times? I can say that I have personally changed my mind about a couple of things as a result of discussions on this site. The views of others have enriched the ones I already had just as other's knowledge of snakes has enriched what I already knew about them. Discussion and arguement is how we learn things, only the truly closed minded will only express what they think and not acknowledge the thoughts of others. But we aren't talking about the usefullness of debate, we're talking about whether certain topics must be forbidden from being discussed. I'm saying it isn't necessary, in fact it's impossible to actually do this and what is truly needed is a ban on personal attacks not on debate itself.

[MouseKilla]

Shane,

Thanks for responding on behalf of the administators and I must say that I agree with your goals and in the end, as many have said, it's your site and you make the rules. I did not intend to put the Mods down in anyway or to organize some sort of rebellion in the membership, I simply wanted to discuss the application of your stated rules. I didn't mean to step on any toes so if I have done that by starting this thread I appologize. Having said that though I think it's clear that in the General Discussion forum the basic rules of the site apply except the topics aren't restricted. You have acknowledged that you can't keep people's views out completely so I have to wonder why the politics/religion rule is there at all. What is the need for a rule other than one resticting personal attacks?

[J-Man]

If there was truly a “no religious discussion” rule, then I would never have to defend my beliefs, and I would not be banned now.

[Slannesh]

I assume you're talking to me MouseKilla,

You will never change someone's Political or Religious beliefs by arguing the other side with them. Those are the two things that people feel most strongly about if they express an opinion. You might be able to sway someone who doesn't have an affiliation one way or the other, but you'll never convince someone with strong Christian beliefs to give Satanism a try and you'll never make a Reform party member hop on over to the NDP. People simply do not discuss those two topic rationally. You can start out trying to, but even in this thread where we haven't directly discussed anything specifically religious or political people are getting heated.

You definatlely can change people's minds when they've been given erroneous (sp?) information about herps. That's why this site exists in the first place. However keeping a herp has very little to do with Faith. Which is what what most Religion and politics are based on. Belief and faith in the ideas of the church or political party of your choosing. Those people have already chosen thier stance. That doesn't make them closed minded as you've implied. It means they've made a choice and don't appreciate people trying to tell them they're wrong.

As i've said before in this thread. this site is run by the owners and they are allowed to make and enforce any rules they like. Those topics have been disallowed. If you don't like it, discuss them on another forum and use this forum for what it's intended for.

[Shane Tesser]

Its exactly that....to restrict personal attacks. Alot of the topics on here can sometimes border line on adult content. Being that a large percentage of our member base is under the age of 18, we decided along time ago to protect those members where possible. I guess the goal is to keep underaged members from seeing what we believe is unsuitable. From our past experiences, and trust me, we are not new at the web game, religious and political posts rarely come out as pleasant in the end. The problem is that all it takes is one negative comment from one negative individual and the whole thing snowballs. I personally am one of those ppl that just dont read and respond to posts like those...and i think a couple ppl mentioned the whole..just dont click idea. I try to remain unbiased where possible and only read the threads for potential problems.

I should mention that i wasnt suggesting that you were attacking mods...i think i projected that wrong..sorry. What i was trying to do is explain how things are defined. We get alot of backlash sometimes and it comes with the job i guess. Im sure those who know me will say that i am actually quite a nice person and very easy going. Like i mentioned before, i hate having to edit and police..but again thats the job. All i can hope for is one day to have the site working to the point where my job becomes obsolete. Nothing would please me more then to not have to step in. But if you will allow me one comment i would like to say this. I belong to other boards. I belong to other types of web based forums, and am a webmaster myself. What has always blown my mind is the inablility of herpers to really see the big picture to the hobby. This hobby although in recent years has made leaps and bounds...is still on the whole not understood. In some cases its frowned upon and grossly and unfairly stereotyped as being wrong...or un-necessary. With this in mind, why can herpers not unite. Its you verses the statisquo. Members of this hobby will one day i hope realize that herper unity is the real goal here. Once thats achieved then we can make the world understand its importance. In the meantime all i can do it sit at this screen and shake my head. Unite for your own self worth, for the hobby as a whole, and mostly for the animals that we all love. Everything in the hobby depends on our ability to show the world what it truely is to be a herper.

[MouseKilla]

I totally aggree Shane, herping itself is a political activity. We are all representatives of eachother to the rest of the world. One irresponsible keeper reflects badly on all the others. The same thing happens in discussions that aren't necessarily only political or religious but just contentious, like this one for example. This discussion isn't either political or religious but it is just interesting enough to have the potential for stupidity. I believe you when you say that you wish you didn't have to police at all, your lenience toward those that have occasionally crossed the line proves what you say. We've agreed that the rules are there to prevent the personal attacks but what I'm saying is forbidding certain, select topics isn't an effective way of doing that. The way to do that is something you are already doing anyway which is removing those who can't be civil. You would know better than most of us with your experience that some people can behave like idiots no matter what the topic of discussion is.

[Shane Tesser]

Exactly :D

[Sean_.E.]

I completely respect the moderators but that doesn't mean that I agree with every decision or rule they make.

First of all I just wanted to point out that in the desvription of the general forum it says, " Anything goes.. (If there isn't another forum for your thread)" things like this can be very misleading and if I didn't know better I would think that ANYTHING was aloudd to be discussed here.

Religion and politics are two things that everyone is effected by daily. I see people talking about politics here regularily and on occasion religion. I, myself, enjoy learning about different religions. I also like to hear peoples oppinions on politics but I can't stand when people begin to turn nasty, making personal attacks, ignorant comments or just say stupid things to purposely make people angry.

I think that the moderators should enforce a one-warning system. If people make personal attacks etc. on the forums they should get one warning. If they do it again then they should get banned.

If people are going to do anything to purposely offend someone then they should at least do it in private and in respect for the rest of us. If they really have a bone to pic with someone then that should be done in private aswell. We need to open our eyes and realise that as individuals what we do will effect EVERYONE.

The moderators obviously work very hard but I think a plan needs to be made and rules need to be posted so that as a community we can fuction properly. Also, If we are going to complain about something I think that we should make suggestions on how the mods can make things better. They have lives outside of this forum and is really alot of work. If we can help 'em out, I think this forum could become a better place.

Just my oppinion.
Sean

PS: please excuse any grmatical errors etc.(or if things are weird, silly) as I just finishes 4 hours of sports and it is fairly late. :)

[chas*e]

BECAUSE.....There is no winning or even logically discussing Religion

[asphyxia]

ah, like wow man, ah, like this is like sooo yesterday, ah like lets move on or like go shopping, or somthing like that.

[J-Man]

lol

[mykee]

These are topics that get very heated very quickly. A hot topic for sure, and MouseKilla, your initial post was brilliant. In order for this site, like others, to remain 'status quo' and 'PC', you stay away from hot topics. The less feathers that are ruffled, the better. God (oops) only knows that there are enough ruffled feathers (on occasion) on this site without the need to bring religion or politics into the fray.

[Grant vg]

I think Marisa brought up a very good point.

When heated topics arise, i see many people who are quick to say "if ya dont like it, dont read it".
The fact of the matter is, are members dont have to read it, however the mods do...
I for one, cant stand talking about religion, cant stand talking about politics, know nothing about cars, nor could i stand picking up a magazine on any of these topics and reading about them.

I didn't accept this position to spend hours of the day reading off topic threads like "my girlriend dumped me" or hurting my eyes going through pages of threads on religion looking for one "out of line" sentence or someone acting improper.


i joined the moderation team because it's needed if things are to run smoothly, i believed in jeffs vision of what he wanted it to become and because i enjoyed reading about reptiles as well as having enough time to lend a hand.
I now find myself with little to no time to really enjoy many of the "herp-related" threads this site has to offer.
I now find myself spending waaaay to much time in the GD then id like, as well as not enough time in other forums where i think the best knowledge is shared.

It must be nice to have the ability to ignore any thread you wish.
for us, we have to visit queensnake if we want to know what that feels like.
Maybe we should scrap the GD all together? While were at it, the joke forum too??? believe me, ite been considered....

But no, Jeffs been persistent that these stay up, as he knows all you guys and girls like em! And hes here to please.
SO, is it not fair to ask that a few topics not be discussed??? to make our lives a little easier???
In my opinion, this is the most smoothly run website with the largest amount of non-herp related material out there.

We try to keep as many threads up on the forums, but a few topics have NEVER ended good, so why allow them?
if every time a certain topic of a thread led to a flame war, we'd ban those topics as well. luckily we have a great group of members who do a fair bit of moderating themselves and it hasn't really come to that.
Unless its an outright conflict with the TOS, every deleted thread is a judgement call.
If you cant understand that, then thats toooooo bad, causes its going to remain that way.

Its interesting how a majority of the complaints come from members who arn't site supporters.
Your support goes to keeping the site up and running, not to any of the mods or jeffs car insurance (no matter how high it may be now :p).
Ppl should feel lucky enough that jeff pays out his a$$ for a site that has turned into a discussion mainly on "someone getting dumped by someone" , or "opinions on sleep disorders". let alone to have to deal with ppl constantly challenging the way the site is run.
if we were charging a fee to be a member, perhaps we could reason with you. luckily no ones being charged a fee.
So be thankful this site is here and just respect the rules.
This isn't directed at anyone one individual, its just my opinion as a moderator on a subject that has been dragging for way to long now.

We can outline the rules time and time again, believe me , it doesn't work 99% of the time.
even if it popped up in bright flourescent letters each time you logged on, the amount of stuff that ends up in the bad threads forum is unbelievable!!!

theres always going to be ppl who are going to have flame wars on religion, post links to porn sites, swear like mad men in there posts, and we'll delete em as we see them.
that's it.


gvg
(sorry for the long post)

[asphyxia]

theres always going to be ppl who are going to have flame wars on religion, post links to porn sites, swear like mad men in there posts, and we'll delete em as we see them.

Umm, err, ahh, where are those porn site links by the way?

Edited to say "there for a friend" ;)

[Grant vg]

lol brian, your too much! lmao

[Shane Tesser]

Nicely put Grant :)

[J-Man]

yeah and please don't PM them to asphyxia... please just post them here.... I don't really know why.

[Sunrunner]

I am sorry to see Chuck banned, personally I learned alot from his very well wriiten and accurate posts as they pertain to herps. Is there anyway he may one day be able to return to the site?
As for the religion/politics stuff I'm with the staff in that it's left better for some where else...to many "cyber-balls" on these types of sites. We should all be a tight-knit community since our passion of herps is threatened constantly from every corner, we need to work together and topics like religion/politics unfortunately tear us apart. In that light and since like you say this is a family site I think relationship issus (such as the dating a married woman thread) should also be shunned. No need for us to add to the crap the net already flounders in. Herps, friendly news, and concerns should be the focus here. Sorry if I added to the pot in that religion thread. It IS a touchy subject especially for a christian as we feel the need to bring others to our faith. There is no way we can't debate. Leave it for some where else. I don't want to be banned but even more I cannot leave my Faith undefended...it's impossible. So rather then make a damned if you do/damned if you don't choice I would prefer to see the problem eliminated before it manifests. Not all problems can be halted (as seen in the work out thread and dozens of others) but they can sbe ignificantly reduced if we all realize we are a community united under a common interest and we work together as such. Also Mousekilla is one hundred percent correct in the banning of ppl who feel the need to bash others for no reason at all. These ppl are a disgrace to the site and make us all look bad. Why hurt some one feelings for nothing...just keep it to yourself.

Thanks,
Kim

[corr]

I don't always agree with Chuck's tactics and I respect admin's decission to ban him. However I feel that Chuck's statement is true that Christian bashing is allowed here and that "What is enforced is a no “pro Christian discussion.” "

[V.hb]

I cant believe its so hard to apprehend that religion, war and politics are all around off limits on boards like this? I recieved PMS saying why do I not hassle birthday threads? I Only commented on this one as it was so out of place. I myself, like to talk about current events in war, and politics but never once spoke about it here, its far too racy and can lead to disaster that the mods dont need to deal with and some individuals just dont deserve to be offended even if it isnt done intentionally these topics can offend people.

I never knock people for believing in something or following what they feel is right thats great, but publically posting for everyone to read on a reptile forum isn't.

[MouseKilla]

Grant,

I wasn't trying to put anybody down or complain about the site. I was simply making an observation that the rules are somewhat ambiguous. It's been acknowledged that it's impossible to totally separate religion and politics from even the most strictly reptile related forums let alone the general discussion forum. What I was trying to do is offer a simpler rule. Simpler to understand for members, simpler to enforce for you guys. If you just say "no personal attacks" then you don't have to waste all that time you're talking about reading all the non-herp posts to screen it for forbidden topics. It's hard to say, as I'm sure you're position has shown you, when a conversation has turned political, philisophical or religious but it's quite easy to see when someone has crossed over to insults and attacks. Again, it isn't a problem with certain topics, it's certain people. Remove the idiots and the rest of us will be able to discuss nearly anything peacefully. I've seen other forums where it is possible to report a post, maybe that would be a way to take some of the pressure off you guys. If someone insults you report it to the Mod, they make their call and that's that. I understand the goals of the rules, I'm just saying that a simpler rule would be much easier for everyone but like Burger King, have it your way.

[jason h]

It is simply easier and in the best intrest to everyone if we ban certain topics then to start banning the members that cross the line while dicussing these topics.IF you thought that the GD was a free for all, then you didnt read the rules of the site, we like to keep everyone here in a postitive atmostphere,to be enjoyed by all not to get put down or bashed for there beliefs,there for these rules are in place.IF the rules were not here the forums would be overwelmed with arguement and upset members.This is not what we wish for the site to be.we want it to be a joy to visit for EVERYONE regardless of there beliefs or political differances.

[Grant vg]

mouse killa,

i understand your reasoning, and my post was in no means directed to you personally. We do have a report button if you look at the bottom left of each and every post on these forums..you will see it.
luckily enough ppl use it to to make are job a lot easier.

over the past year there have been tons of ppl who have acted out in a manner which should get them banned. however, we've rarely banned someone on there first negative post, let alone there second and third negative post, we warn ppl and do our best to keep members around as ive seen some of them change for the best.
others dont, they get banned.
Some are so caught up on there "freedom of speech" and reluctance to follow rules that the'll give us a very hard time when we try to fill them in on why we deleted a post, or whatever the case may be.
But id rather spend the extra time to keep members around, then ban ppl with the push of a button.
My point is, off topic posts like "happy birthday to X" or "check out my car" rarely bring about a flame war.
religion and politics always do. Rather then ban memebers, we delete posts on this, and spend the rest of our time browsing for other stuff that should be removed...

[Linds]

The difference between religion and politics and the most of the other topics discussed are that they are very personal and people are highly sensitive and defensive when it comes to discussing them. It would be nice to think that everyone resepected everyone else's religious and political views, but in truth, many do not, and in fact feel just as strongly against them as they feel pro their own. When allowed to be discussed in the past, these topics have ALWAYS ended up having to be closed. The site simply does not benefit in any way from them, but rather ends up having more of a negative impact than anything. It isn't like we banned the topics right off the bat, we learned from the past when we allowed them to be discussed - we go with what works and these topics don't.

[MouseKilla]

Grant,

I totally understand that the only reason the admin. has tried to steer people away from certain areas is to try to avoid some of the stupidity and that makes sense to me. The problem is that it doesn't work. One of the mods said that you can explain the rules 99 times and some people still won't get it. You can't prevent people from talking like idiots by limiting what the idiots can talk about. How many times have you seen people get out of line in a herp thread? I've seen it lots. I've been on the receiving end of some abuse in fact but it hasn't by any means been limited to off topic discussions. It just makes a lot more sense to me to forbid the abusiveness than to forbid individual subjects. I wonder what you think of this thread. It is neither political nor religious but it has brought more than 50 responses and over 800 viewings in less than 24 hours. There have been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread and a lot of people clearly feel strongly about what they are saying. So far no one has resorted to name calling or anything like that so what we've had is a good debate and, in my opinion, an entertaining conversation. We don't all agree with eachother and you can look at that as a negative thing if you like but I would suggest that if everyone always agreed then no one would waste their time talking to eachother in the first place. Should there be no discussing things that we don't all agree on? There is a difference between a debate and a fight. Whenever you have a discussion where there isn't total agreement you will hear the opposing opinions and that opens the door for that small minority of trouble makers to put others down based on their opinions. Now you can either forbid the put downs or you can go the other way and forbid everyone, no matter how well behaved, from talking about things that may inspire or give ammunition to that small group of jerks that in reality will find something to insult other people about regardless of how limited the conversation may be. You could cut all the forums out but one on this site, let's say that happened and all you could talk about was Ball Pythons, don't you think those same ignorant people would still cause problems? "You keep your enclosure at 70% humidity? Are you stupid?" If you really watch you will notice that it's the very same people that cause trouble no matter where they go. It can be a discussion on Christianity or a discussion on the humidity level of a ball python's enclosure, either way the idiots surface and then someone has to deal with them. Banning topics to avoid personal attacks is like banning cars to stop drunk driving, it's just clumsy.

[marisa]

But abusive attacks ARE already not allowed. And personally the differance between a herp thread getting out of hand and a religion thread is that its a HERP thread. The mods aren't here to moderate discussions about religion or politics. They are interested in herps and that is why they offered to be mods in the first place.

It seems so simple to me. Keep religion off a reptile forum, keep politics off a herp forum. There is no reason to state you believe in jesus or not in a way thats related to herps. There is no way to say you dont like Bush in a manner that has ANYTHING to do with reptiles. On top of that the threads get out of hand and it turns ugly.

In any case this website runs a million times smoother than other reptile forums out there, and as long as the arguements are HERP related then things are going good IMHO.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

The General Discussion forum is specifically for non-herp related topics, therefore obviously there are mods to deal with more than just the herp stuff. IF what you were saying was true and no one wanted to have to moderate off topic threads then they simply wouldn't exist, there would be no General Discussion forum. Doing that would not, as I've said, eliminate personal attacks. You say it is "simple" to keep religion and politics out of the discussions, if that were so then maybe you could define what those words mean. You can't! And again, herp collecting itself is a political act. It's far easier to define personal attacks as insults or put downs directed at another member. A rule like that draws a clear line, it doesn't say you can talk about this but don't talk about that, it says express your opinion but don't abuse others. What can be simpler? I realize that a rule similar to that already exists, what I'm saying is that no more is needed.

[marisa]

It was NEVER for non related herp topics! What it meant was anything herp that didn't fit into a species specific catergory. It wasn't until people started posting religion and crap that it became the "do as you feel forum"

It was never a post anything forum. Ever. Maybe the wording is wrong but by "anything" it means anything that didn't fit into the catergories. I don't see why thats hard to understand considering we are on a REPTILE website.

You don't want anyone to define anything so what DO you want? You want no off topic posts because ssnakess.com cannot define religion? Thats a little ridiculous if you ask me. You want them to define it and then have them watch people CONSTANTLY cross the line? That creates MORE work for them.

Like I said, since the time this site opened the general forum was for things that didn't fit into the species specific categories. Not do as you feel, that idea came from members posting whatever they wanted, not the sites idea.

And I agree. More is not needed. But less complaints to this website from people are. (not specifically you of course, just generally) when they decide enough is enough, why can't people who aren't supporting this site in the first place agree with that and just let it go?

Marisa

[marisa]

And "collecting a herp is a political act"

But these people aren't talking about that! And if it was truely a herp related discussion then fine. But it CLEARLY wasn't in this case and it hardly ever is. It may start that way but it ends in fighting.

I am just saying all these complaints are coming from people who want to talk about this stuff obviously. And some of these complainers seem to think they can run a forum this size better (because they have a lot of problems with this place apparently, again not you at all but generally) so why don't they just abide by the SIMPLE easy to understand rules, or go make their own forum if this one is handling things in a manner they don't agree with? Jeff has asked like 55 times in a nice polite way but people just ignore him. Its rude and disrespectful if you ask me.

Again none directed at you but generally. ya know. lol
Marisa
P.S. Yes maybe just a ban on attacks (which there already is) would work, but the owner of this site and the mods have CLEARLY posted their position on it, they do not want it discussed. My point is how many times do they have to ask this until people just shut up and listen? ya know what I mean? Why are people forcing them to be borken records like they can't even read what they say? Its stupid. If I was Jeff I would have blown my top by now.

[Grant vg]

as Marisa said, abusive attacks and *****-disturbers wont be accepted on this site.

so say for a second we allow religion and politics to be on the forums again...because we have decided to adopt your view on how to moderate the forums.
I'll bet all my snakes that within the first 24 hours, there will be at least a few heated discussions by the time i get home from work, and after a hard day, ill have to spend hours, as thats what it normally takes to read these threads, just to have to put it into the bad threads at the end of it.
Not to mention, the group of ppl i have to start banning because they stepped out of line.
and who gets banned?
the first guy who jumped in with a sassy attitude and a swear word, or the next guy, who started off pleasent, but blew his top once stupid guy #1 jumped in?
So they all get banned.
stupid guy #1 never really offered anything to the site. so its ok to ban him.
but that one pleasent guy, had 1100+ posts of good solid information they shared prior to this little outburst.
So now were in front of the firing squad because other members felt pleasent guy should have been given a warning b/c he has so much to offer, but cant walk away from a debate gone sour because hes a proud catholic.
by letting these topics to be discussed were making a lot more work for ourselves...and a lot more troubles.
it wont EVER be allowed to be discussed on this forum, regardless of where this thread continues to head. thats not a prediction, thats a fact.

im going to stop there, as ill just be repeating something thats already been stated in this thread.

gvg

[MouseKilla]

I have tried to make it clear from the start that I am not complaining, just making an observation on the difference between the INTENT of the rules and the reality of what actually happens. I love this site and the reason for that is the good conversation and information that I find here. I think the mods had the right idea when they made the rules but I'm just pointing out that they don't work. The reason for that is that the absense of a clear understanding of what "religion and politics" means causes more confusion and more work not less. It's easier to define abuse than to ban topics that have brought heated arguements. How about this thread, is this one religious or political? Is it on topic or off?? Those questions are harder to answer than the easier question of has anyone been attacked. In this case the answer is no, no one has been personally attacked. This isn't a snake discussion but it isn't a religious or political one either so how would you apply all of the other complex rules to this thread? The abuse rule requires much less work and judgement so the idea that having additional, more complicated rules makes things easier for anyone is simply false.

[marisa]

But there already IS an abuse rule. People are NOT allowed to personally attack members. Is that the only rule? Of course not. But do you not agree that banning people on a individual basis is far more fair than just outright banning this person and that for breaking some set in stone rule?

I am unclear on what you want. You said you want a no abuse rule? But there IS one. So seriously, I am confused.

Marisa

[marisa]

And again dude, nothing personal to you at all. I realize you aren't complaining just trying to start a dialog about whats going on here lately. Totally not personal at you at all.

Marisa

[SCReptiles]

Correction....you were banned for your constant harassment of others
You can not find an occasion where I took the offensive on anyone. Any time I made any sort of negative post toward anyone it was only in retaliation.

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

At first I was just trying to gain an understanding of why the "no religion/no politics" rule was there in the first place. Since that original post there as been a lot of constructive discussion about it and I now uderstand what the goal of those rules is. I'm not by any means even asking if the rules could be changed, one of the first things I said was that the rules here, on a site that is owned by someone else, are none of my business and certainly if they ruined my enjoyment of the site I wouldn't keep coming back. Quite to the contrary, I think this site is awesome and I have noticed a difference between the stated rules and the way things actually go. I have been trying to suggest a way to match the written rules with the rules that are actually in practice. The mods on this site are great in that they have good judgement, they don't cut threads off for nothing, not just because someone mentions Jesus or George Bush, they in fact actually only intervene when things get stupid. They do a great job. I don't think the job would get harder for them if the rules (hypothetically) were simplified to a clear "no abuse" rule only. The additional content rules regarding forbidden topic only make things more confusing and what's worse is they don't even stop the personal attacks.

[Slannesh]

MouseKilla:

If you already understand the rules of the forum and agree with them and think the moderators are doing a great job as you've said in the above post what more do you want?

There already is a "no abuse" rule in place. It seems to me like you're wanting a detailed list of things that are and aren't allowed down to the detail of having it in full legalese.... In my many years on forums in general i've always found that the best rules are these:

1: Respect everyone who posts here.

2: If you have nothing of value to add, don't say anything.

3: It's so and so's site. They make the rules. FOLLOW THEM.

4: Don't argue with Moderators over things you aren't willing to be banned over.

Does it really have to be any more complicated than that?

After 5 pages of talking about it I still don't really see what your original point was other than you do want to talk about topics that have been forbidden? *shrugs*

[BoidKeeper]

The bottom line is the owner of the site can make up whatever rules they like.
End of story! This is not a democracy. As it's been said in the past if you don't like it here leave. One simple little request, don't talk about religion here and some people can't handle it. Frankly I don't think it would matter what the simple little request was the same people would still complain about it. Why the hell would you want to take religion on a herp site anyway? Go to a religouse site or church if you want to talk God. This crap as gone on for far too dam long and it's starting to get under my skin that people can't just let it go and move on. I mean jesus why can't some people just respect the mods and admin request and move on. This is such a waste of time and space. If it was up to me I'd ban the next person who even typed the word religion. For crying out loud does Jeff really have to change the title of the form to "Anything Reptilian Goes".
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Well if you don't know what my point is then just go back to the first page and read my original post. I have been clear from the start that I don't have a problem with following the rules, as they are enforced and apply to us all. I'm not looking to get rid of rules or add new ones or even pretend for a second that I have any say in how the site will be run. The reason I started this thread is that I didn't understand why a good conversation should be shut down because 1 person says something ignorant. The truth is that the ignorant person is going to be that way regardless of the topic so why single people out for talking about certain subjects? It isn't just the people that talk about these things that cause the problems and the problems aren't limited to threads on these forbidden subjects so what good do these rules do? That's all I'm doing is asking the question. So far no one has convinced me that anything is accomplished with this rule that couldn't be accomplished with only the rule against being abusive other than stopping an otherwise harmless conversation, but then again no one has to convince me of anything, who am I afterall? Nobody, I have no say but there seems to at least be some interest in the topic or there wouldn't be such a huge response.

[lordkovacs]

I in fact agree with MOST of what mouse says. I agree in the fact that people can take things too far in ANY post. Go check the elaphe gutata gutata forum. Someone asked a question yesterday and antoher person basically said they are stupid and ignorant and are a waste of bandwith (that's not a quote). All for asking a question. Was that person reported?

Or what about the thread, that REALLY long one about bicep size. That got out of hand with people making fun of eachother, saying very nasty things. It went on for like 8 pages or something and that wasn't shut down? That ceratainly has nothing to do aobut herps...

I understand some people are more sensitive, and some here are very young and do not need to hear some of the stuff said here, but then I think there needs to be a level playing field. All posts have the potential to include some inappropriate comments, not just religious/political ones. Out of curiousity, what would happen if we discussed the snakes as they relate to the Bible? hahaha... i'm just pushing it now.

Anyway, this is indeed a great debate, and should not be shut down (until it gets too washed out).
cheers all,
MIKE

[jaybox_reptiles]

was the topic that was closed my topic? the one about y the snake is the devil? thx

JAy

[V.hb]

Why dont we all go back to herps? Honestly guys.. were all supposed to get along and help eachother out, not bicker about this crap. the rules are no religion politics etc to be discussed so lets just respect the rules and have fun!

[lordkovacs]

it's not bickering... it's just a debate. no malicious intentions.
cheers,
MIKE

oh, won't somone please think of the children! hahaha

[MouseKilla]

Vhb,

No one is discussing religion here.

[V.hb]

Well the topic in question about banned threads regarding Chuck was based on Religion. I will correct myself and say "Fire-starting" topics. Iam sure it was clear to you what I meant anyways.......

[Turtle Matt]

It's obvious what v.hb meant, you guys are taking up space with this rediculous threads. I personally am anti-religion and politics, so I respect the rules and dislike when people are posting about them.
Matt

[Jeff_Favelle]

If you dudes have the time to discuss this ad nauseum, you clearly don't have enough herps!!!!

Too bad I'm sold out for the year. :p

[sSNAKESs.com]

Okay to be quick and brief... EVERY SINGLE thread that has been about religion and politcs turned into a flame war period. These topics are NOT and will NEVER be allowed on the site period. I dont have time, my moderators dont have time, the members dont have time to deal with all of the BS and problems that comes from political and religous threads and if you do have time there are alot of political forums as well as religious forums of every religion or faith, run a google search and find one and feel free to post away!! This has nothing to do with my beliefs or anyone elses regardless of what they are... They are banned and will remain banned, period.

[Dozer]

so ya, today at school, i saw this chick with a skirt... walkin' up the ....


yyyeeeeowwwwww!!

Mike

[Zoe]

I haven't read the 6 pages of replies, but IMO it isn't that hard to understand.
In thise case religion does not equal morals. It means talking about religion! Debating what group is better, atheism, etc. Talking about the best way to kill a rat, imo, has little to nothing to do with religion.
Same with a new law... saying "proposed law will punish sex offenders more strictly" or whatever is far different than saying "George Bush is a moron".

The threads that are deleted/banned are the ones that have/will turn into an argument. I don't think a post about a proposed law to ban snakes somewhere will create a huge flame war... but something about liberals vs conservatives will.

I don't see any ambiguity here.

Zoe

[MouseKilla]

Jeff,
Hey man it's your site, ban whatever you want, it was never my intention to pretend anything else was going to happen. What so many people fail to understand is that saying "no politics" doesn't mean a thing so go ahead and ban it all you like, it won't do a lick of good. It comes down to this: you can either allow people to express themselves freely with the limitation that they aren't to be abusive or you can say no one can talk about anything but herps. All this wishy-washy nonsense about things being political or religious just doesn't make sense. Honestly, what do you mean by politics?? Does that mean we can't discuss laws? What if the laws pertain to herps? And how about religion, what do you mean by that? Does that mean that no one can talk about snakes in the Bible? See how murky and silly that gets? How is anyone supposed to know when they've crossed that invisible line? What criteria is used to decide? Doesn't it take a lot more time to determine whether a conversation has crossed over into the imaginary realm of politics and religion than it would to just close a thread or warn/ban an offending member when they resort to insults? Like I said, I know I have no say in this, I 'm just pointing out that this one rule is a useless one. Keep it if you like, it's certainly your prerogative to do so, I still won't understand it but I think I can avoid any problems by simply being respectful of the views of others. If those views don't make sense then I will point it out just as I have here, in a logical and respectful way.

[Corey Woods]

Jeff,

I still have some available.......you know how to reach me!

Corey

[sSNAKESs.com]

Mouse really the only one who is getting technical and silly is you.... Lets put it this way then... Any political / religious thread that myself or any mod on the team wants to remove will be removed... Either way you dice it they will be removed as we see fit.. Im done talking about it.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't think a post about a proposed law to ban snakes somewhere will create a huge flame war... but something about liberals vs conservatives will.

At least a post on the banning of snakes is somewhat relevant to this site, don't you think?? LOL!

Corey, I was totally thinking about a male het pied. Gonna be a cheapie and go ths possible-het route, LOL! I'll email you in a bit after I figure what's staying and what's going this season! LOL!

[sSNAKESs.com]

Corey, some what?! Your confusing me man!

[sSNAKESs.com]

oh favelle.. nevermind! ;)

[daver676]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Jeff,
It comes down to this: you can either allow people to express themselves freely with the limitation that they aren't to be abusive or you can say no one can talk about anything but herps.

I think it's time for a little common sense Mousekilla. Would you really like to live in a world where the boundrys are so cut in stone? Jeff hasn't enforced such strict rules, and I don't want him to.

Frankly I don't think threads about muscles or cars or music should be posted either, but I do what everyone else does who feels this way. I don't read it!

[MouseKilla]

Jeff,

I understood that already and acknowledged it several times. You can do whatever you like on your site and no one can force you to make sense. You haven't begun to explain what this unclear rule means so by saying you're done with the subject you're saying that you're just going to be arbitrary about what threads are closed. If that was what was intended then why not state THAT in the rules instead? One last thing, why get so upset over something that has caused people to post so much? Isn't it a good thing for you when a lot of people use your site and see the advertising and maybe buy memberships? I know I personally don't just come to look at the pictures and read the ads.

Daver,

I have already said that the rule isn't enforced anyway and that is what makes it so stupid. Threads get shut down not because of their topics alone but because some moron comes along and resorts to personal attacks. It's silly to blame any one topic for the rudeness of a few trouble makers.

[Jeff_Favelle]

********'s on glue....................



LOL!


:o

[daver676]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Threads get shut down not because of their topics alone but because some moron comes along and resorts to personal attacks. It's silly to blame any one topic for the rudeness of a few trouble makers.

I DO agree with you on this point.

[Shane Tesser]

I think this is now becoming silly. Again i have to sit and watch a thread that now even Jeff has jumped into and said hes done with it..yet it continues.

I guess since ppl want a clear definition of the rules...since none of us are lawyers...we should probably get the sites lawyer to draw one up. Im sure it will be long and expensive so MouseKilla since your so insistant on a clearer definition of the rules and where and how they apply, i need your address to know where to send the bill! LOL!

I think the answer is this....hopefully cause i don't want to see Jeff get mad...no one wins when Jeffy gets mad :(

I think an outright ban is personally impossible on these two topics. Mainly for the reason they they transend various boundaries. What i think is really meant...is that we ask that the topics be avoided. Basically they are not topics depending on the extremity of the content that we want to see here. And if and when they appear, we will decide as a management group to deal with the thread at our discression.

I hate being crass but im getting to that point...so its simple...like it or lump it. There is lots of sites out there. Lots of forums...ppl like to complain. Its just human nature i guess. So keep complaining...eventually your webmaster will get so frustrated that he will just pull the site down! Really what would Jeff lose? The site draws little income as it was never meant to be a business in the first place. Everything is free...the set up is great..and it costs Jeff out of pocket large amounts to keep it here month after month! So im wondering why still complain. Instead, pay for the site for one month and then you'll see first hand how much work this labour of love really takes. I make a good living..and im paying for our sister site. Im telling you, im not sure if i would continue to pay out of pocket as much as Jeff does for a site like this month after month only to have ppl complain about the little things! What about the other things...like a site that is free...a site that is dominent without the rude tones as the other sites? A site that goes to shows and meets members. A webmaster who participates! I guess in the end the real answer lies in this...If you can do it better..build your own site...gather up your piggy bank and go nuts!

[Emily-Fisher]

Wow, this is unbelievably dumb.

Mousekilla, just out of curiosity, if you respect all of the mods' rules, then why do you have to question them? Why can't you just let them rest? If you respect everything that they say, why argue over it? All you need is a bit of common sense to know that when they say "No Threads Involving Religion and Polotics", they mean nothing offensive that falls into those catergories. Sure, a topic about snakes being banned in who knows where involves polotics, but is it offensive? I dun think so! I am definitely not the smartest member on the site but even I was able to figure that much out.

[MouseKilla]

Shane,
I've said from the very start that I'M NOT COMPLAINING just poiting out a rule that is impossible to follow because it makes no sense. I'm not saying in any way that I don't like this site for that reason or that I wish I had a web site so that I could make better rules or any of that other nonsense. I have no problem with any of the rules that I do understand and I follow them. At the same time the guy shelling out of his own pocket to keep this thing up isn't going to get any help from me when he cops a snarky attitude, let's not forget that I have even less to lose in this. If you look back about a million posts to the original one it started with a question not an insult or complaint, granted it was a provocative one but then again all good questions are. So far all my experiences on this site have been great, it seems to provide a good service but if I can't even ask a question without getting "this is my site and I'll do whatever I want" for an answer then maybe I was wrong. I appologize (again) if this conversation is stepping on any toes but when I see something that doesn't make sense I ask a question, what's wrong with that? Can I not ask why something is the way it is just because I don't own the site? One of the things that has brought me back to this site a couple of thousand times is the good debates that I find here, both herp related and otherwise, if there is a rule against intelligent conversation on this site perhaps I've missed it. There is otherwise nothing wrong with this site, I wouldn't change it if I did own it. I'm not a webmaster and have no interest in becoming one but if someone does want to be one then they ought to be willing to listen to the people who use their sites and give real answers to honest questions from those people.

[Slannesh]

I was going to try and explain it to MouseKilla again, but everyone else already said what I was going to.

Basically the mods and admin can do whatever they want, they own the space, we have no free speech here. Like Grant said, like it or lump it.

However, I was one of those heavily involved in the sleep disorder thread and i'm also a contributing member ;)

But seriously. The rules are the rules, if you don't like them fine, Send the admins an email with well thought out points as to why they should change and then accept the decision they make... going but why this and what about that? Doesn't do anything but piss those in charge off. "Because I'm the Admin and I said so" Is a perfectly valid answer in this case.

I choose to like it :)

Now can we please let this stupid thread die and get back to talking about herps?

[Slannesh]

MouseKilla,

You keep asking the same question over and over. Why isn't it allowed?

Because people get pissed off then run their mouths causing the mods to have to intervene. They have better things to do than babysit the lot of us.

There already is a 'No verbally abusing' other forum members rule in place. They enforce it when they think it's necessary, not when you do.

What's left to question?

[sSNAKESs.com]

lol you have no idea man... I could care less if I own the site or not... You dont get the point, will never get the point and you get the answers you get because im sick of repeating myself / justifying the rules to YOU because you just choose to debate something that really needs no debate. Since you have less to lose then me and "this is my site and I'll do whatever I want" I guess its fair enough to ban you and not feel guilty about it.... Thread Closed.