Calcium supplementation for baby snakes.

[RepTylE]

Okay, now I rarely if ever see any mention of supplementing feeders for baby snakes. The reason that I bring it up is that I know that pinkies (both rat and mice) are low in calcium. Their bone structure is small and less developed.
If you were to supplement would it help the early growth in babies?

I am assuming that a calcium/ phosphorous ratio of 1.5 -1 or 2.0-1 would be about right.

[Jeff_Favelle]

The reason that I bring it up is that I know that pinkies (both rat and mice) are low in calcium.

Interesting claim. Have any proof? ;)

[RepTylE]

Not so much proof just the conception that their skeletal structure is obviously undeveloped like all infant mammals.
Besides, that was the reason I started this thread, to find out about this topic.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ever seen a pinky gut filled with the mom's milk? That's PURE calcium my friend.

[RepTylE]

What if snakes are unable to metabolize it in that form? If a person is lactose intolerant, they lack the enzymes to digest milk products so what nutritional benefit do they get from it?

The only lab analysis that I have for calcium levels are for adult mice and rats.

lol, I knew that I'd be badgered on this one. Jeff you bugger lol

[Jeff_Favelle]

The milk a pinky sucks out of the mom mouse is NOT the same chemical composition as the "milk" that is digesting in its belly. LOL! Not even close. And not to mention, the snake doesn't stick a straw into the pinky's belly to suck the milk out. By the time the pinky's skin and organs break down, the "milk" in side has changed DRASTICALLY.

[RepTylE]

Changed into what? Do you know if a snake could derive nutritional benefit from partially digested mother's milk? I think that they would derive the calcium from the pinkie's skeletal structure which is undeveloped.

[Jeff_Favelle]

They derive calcium from wherever they can get it. Their body's chemical processes doesn't discriminate from the source, LOL! Why do you think they do?

Do you know if a snake could derive nutritional benefit from partially digested mother's milk?

I would say proof is in the pudding. I've raised hundreds of baby snakes on pinkies and its all good, believe me. I don't care what people might THINK would happen. I care what actually happens. And pinkies have proven more than enough. I even fed pinkies to baby monitors without suppliment and as we all know, monitors grow ultra-fast, doubling their body size (and skeleton as a result) within a matter of weeks and months. I've raised those babies purely on pinkies and they have since has eggs of their own! After only 9 months! Crazy. Frank Retes has done this with a LOT more generations that one.

Proof is in the pudding, not the theory.

[Invictus]

Never once supplemented my snakes' diets, likely never will. Our baby corns are growing like weeds, and they've been moved up to fuzzies, but even when they were on pinkies, they kept growing and growing and growing. No need to supplement if they are showing perfect health.

[RepTylE]

Now we are getting somewhere. My prior experience was with geckos and you know how important it is to supplement their diet . I just thought that there might be a snake equivalent for a need to supplement.
Finding info is not all that easy so I had to resort to the slings and arrows of forum discussion.

[Jeff_Favelle]

No need to supplement if they are showing perfect health.

And that's exactly what its all about Invictus. Why screw around with something that has proven to work for just about ever? Concentrate on things that are going WRONG with husbandry, not on things that already work!! LOL!

[Linds]

Originally posted by RepTylE
Now we are getting somewhere. My prior experience was with geckos and you know how important it is to supplement their diet . I just thought that there might be a snake equivalent for a need to supplement.


The reason geckos, and any other herbivorous, omnivorous, or insectivorous lizard needs supplementation, is because they are not eating 100% nutritionally complete items. Rodents are whole prey items, hence no supplementation is required.

[RepTylE]

Well off on a bit of a tangent here.....the lizards mentioned eat insects in the wild and don't need to have them sprinked with supplements. In captivity they do.

[Linds]

Because of lack of diversity. Feeder insects do not eat all the nutrient-rich foods found in the area those animals come from, as well as it is impossible to feed the diverse variety of insects that those animals would naturally find in their natural habitats. For herbivorous animals they may feed on over a hundred different plants, fruits and flowers in the wild. Many of which you cannot get in captivity since they are tree leaves and the like. Since we cannot possibly compete with their natural diets, we must supplement ;)

[Big Mike]

If you feel that they need supplementation, supplement the diet of the feeder animals. Healthy, well fed rodents will no doubt be better for snakes than poorly fed rodents.

On the other hand, a very experienced reptile vet mentioned to me that it would be beneficial to occasionally supplement a snake's diet by putting vitamins into the dead mouse before feeding. This might be a good idea if you don't know where the rodents are coming from and what they were fed.

[RepTylE]

Which probably constitute the bulk of available feeder animals . Who knows where the store gets the mice and rats and how long they have been refrigerated.
I doubt that many people will argue the point that long term storage degrades the quality of the meat. So there goes your food quality.

And just to add one more thought, the argument that captive feeder insects need to be supplemented because they don't get the variety of nutrients as their wild equivalent may be true but then rats and mice in captivity are fed a balanced diet and get little or no exercise so it would lead me to believe that they might not be completely nutritionally sound either. How much of their body mass is nothing more than fat?

[Linds]

Unless the rodents are malnutritioned, they are still complete items. They still have all the necessary vitamins and minerals requireed. Whether the values (fat% protein% etc) have been altered to one degree or another in captivity isn't significant enough and will not malnutrition any snake. Same with any other whole items such as lizards and amphibians. All of these animals have similar enough physical makeup that they can be considered complete items when fed to one another. Insects are drastically different in design and are lacking a lot of what the higher functioning animals have and need. So even when we feed them well, we still cannot make them complete items.

[marisa]

I myself do NOT add anything. I have been and still am slightly afriad of overloading any reptile with powdered vitamins. It seems a little too hard to know exactly how much is getting eaten or how many times to do this, etc. Even for my lizards, I prefer a serious gut load over dusting, although I do of course dust. Just less than some people.

As for the snakes I also do not add anything BUT a very well known corn snake breeder with a large website (dont like to mention names, you know how it is) often advocates dusting pinkies and other prey items for his corns. He uses nutrapreen (i think) and one other additive to this. He says wild mice would be getting a far more varied diet than a captive raised one and in his 20+ years of cornsnake breeding he has always used dusting and always will because he feels some captive snakes have deficenies.

Not to say its right or I am even thinking about it, but there is definitly a school of thought pointing to doing so.

Maybe next year I will split up my corn clutches and feed half dusted and half non dusted? hehehehe

Marisa

[Syco]

[i]Originally posted by marisa
Maybe next year I will split up my corn clutches and feed half dusted and half non dusted? hehehehe

Marisa [/B]

Marisa,
you know that might be an interesting thing to do. I guess then you would be able to tell if it makes any difference.

[marisa]

Well kinda. But so many other factors could be at play it wouldn't really be very scientific and it wouldn't be proof. But interesting anyways.

Marisa

[RepTylE]

I know that i have been poking away at this topic but it is only because I want to know. I research and dig for info. I want to know that I am doing the best for my animals . I hope that I didn't ruffle any feathers in the process. My only intent was to debate points and test hypotheses. I am not done yet. There is information out there and I'll read it and draw my own conclusions as have everyone that has participated and read this thread. I appreciate the input from all.

[IMO]

Here's a study that has a comparative analysis of nutrition amoung many animals used as food sources, including domestic mice and rats at various ages. Check out the tables at the end of the study especially under the heading of mineral composition. The figures given for calcium content do not differ appreciably.

Big Mike makes a very good point. "We don't know what food the mice or rats were raised on." This is really the crux of the matter. Nutrition for the snake is partly related to what the mice or rat was fed and the age of the mice or rat at the time of consumption. The study seems to support this when you look at the various tables and compare the specific ages of the rat and mouse.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

[RepTylE]

Well unless you raise several test samples and compare the results, you wouldn't produce proof that people will accept and even after doing all that research there would still be people that wouldn't accept the data.
I was more interested by alot of responses where they were so against supplementing. I would have thought that people's response would be more like, " light supplementation won't do any harm so try it if you like".
However the response was so negative. I was only suggesting a little calcium powder every third or fourth feeding (which I am going to do). At worst it will have no effect. It's the at best scenario that I am interested in investigating.

All in all this has been an interesting topic.

[Slannesh]

I agree that gutloading for any snake or lizard is by far the better way to go... I don't raise Rats as I have only one Ball python I do raise mealworms and crickets for my leopard geckos and they eat very well, fresh veggies every day, and varied substrates for the mealworms and good all around calcium enriched feed for the Crickets. My Leos seem to like them, but I haven't had them all that terribly long yet so I can't make any definitive answers.

I do occasionally throw a pinch of reptile vitamin in when i'm feeding my Ball Python. Just a little extra kick every second or third feeding or so.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Slannesh
I do occasionally throw a pinch of reptile vitamin in when i'm feeding my Ball Python. Just a little extra kick every second or third feeding or so.

What type of reptile vitamin do you use? I wouldn't mind spicing up my feeders every few feeedings.