So mad I could Vomit with rage!!!! [Archive]

Slannesh

11-02-03, 11:03 AM

I seriously doubt a "small rat" is enough for an adult BP to eat only once per month. Granted I'm sure most of our snakes get much more to eat in captivity than they ever do in the wild... But i'm fairly certain that with most BP care sheets i've seen they suggest an appropriate sized prety item once every 5-10 days. I feed mine a good sized rat once a week, and she's coming up on 6 years old now.

From the Caresheet at http://www.ballpython.com

If you have purchased an adult or sub-adult ball python, about two feet in length, it will naturally eat larger food items. A feeding schedule of once a week will be enough to keep your snake healthy. It is important not to over feed your snake. A fat snake is not a healthy snake. Once again it will be important to train this snake to accept dead food items. Remember to leave your ball python alone for a couple of days after it has eaten.

From the Caresheet at http://www.ballpython.ca

Hatchlings should be fed every 5 - 7 days, and adults can be fed every 7 - 10 days. Try to feed the appropriate sized food item. We try to match the girth if the rat with the girth of the snake. This lead to optimum growth potential and healthy snakes.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Slannesh
I seriously doubt a "small rat" is enough for an adult BP to eat only once per month.

I feed my 3ft BP large rats every 10-12 days. It depends on the snake, really. I don't agree with feeding a snake a certain size to prevent them from growing, though. Definately not. But, not all snakes are the same..even in the same species. If he is feeding his snake one small/MEDIUM rat once a month and he is not thin, then what's the problem? People tend to seriously over feed their animals sometimes.

edit: You link to care sheets, but what do care sheets tell you? Nothing, really. You have to figure stuff out for YOUR snake. Like I said, every snake is different. You can't base your feeding schedule soley on care sheets.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 11:22 AM

I linked to two caresheets both from very reputable people that happen to frequent these forums. I'm sure I could find 50 more that tell us basically the same thing. And I am quite sure I will find none or very close to none that advocate feeding an adult Ball Python only once per month.

There is a HUGE difference between 10-12 days and 28-31 days
Does he feed his dog only every 4 or 5 days? I hope not. How about his kids? once every day and a half? :confused:

Had he said a couple of times a month I wouldn't have really worried. Even my snake used to refuse an occasional meal, it happens. But when someone is feeding an animal only 25% of what most people who know what they're talking about recommend I get concerned.

Notice I haven't jumped all over you for feeding your snake every 10-12 days instead of 7-10. A couple of days here and there or even a week I could see as different snakes being different.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 11:25 AM

you're completely missing my point. what works for you and other people may NOT work for someone else. do you see? You can say, "this is what most people do," and then someone does it and it works out fine. yes. no problem. but, if someone makes up their own schedule and it WORKS for them, then there is no problem with that, either!
See, we are both on the assumption end. You are assuming that the snake is severely underfed. I am assuming that the snake is healthy. It could be either way. It depends ON THE SNAKE. That is all that I am saying. Either of us could be wrong.

edit: also, you can't compare a snake to a dog or a snake to a child. you just can't.

Sunrunner

11-02-03, 11:33 AM

1 small rat a month for a adult ball is NOT enough, if you think other wise you should not have these herps. I am not going to get into it anymore then this because it is wrong for way to many reasons, mainly a new herper comming on here and reading this thread going WOW cool feed it only once a month... stupidity like this leads to animals getting abused and to have them starve to death.
I am speechless about this whole thread if you JUST need something to gripe about which i understand so many ppl do go find another thread and please so it there.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 11:35 AM

First of all, he said small/MEDIUM rat. Every snake is different. For some, that would not be enough. For others, that would be a good feeding schedule. A lot of people feed their adult snakes once per month.
Also, if you think I'm "griping" you're sorely wrong. I am stating my opinion. If you have a problem with that, go to another thread. I wasn't being mean or rude. This was a completely friendly debate.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 11:43 AM

Now who's missing the point?

I agreed with you that snakes even of the same species are different and you can have very different feeding schedules that work. But there is a difference between a somewhat different feeding schedule and starving your animal.

The dogs and people description was for effect, not at all an accurate comparison but it gets the point across. Warm and cold blooded creatures have completely different food requirements.

I'll illustrate another way.

what would you say if someone said that they kept their BP at just ambient room temperature all year? No UTH, no basking lamp, nothing. Just however hot the room happens to be that way. They say the snake is fine and has been like that for years. Then when you ask they say that the ambient room temp is about 60 degreed F or so. Would you be concerned? What if they kept it at 120 all the time instead? Didn't provide any hides for the snake?

What if he kept his snake on Pine or Cedar shavings?

All the caresheets out there have the same basic husbandry for a reason. Trial and error in the early days, along with some basic common sense.

Sunrunner

11-02-03, 11:50 AM

I could state my opinion and say that I should be able to keep my 18 foot retic in my babies room but it doesnt make me right or put my child in less danger because it is MY oponion there are things to be debated and things that are just plain facts.
and yes i know my example is very extreme it IS just an example.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 11:52 AM

I agree with you on that point. You have to understand, I believe in feeding snakes when they are hungry & more than just once a month. But, it's not WRONG if someone is feeding their snake once a month and they continue to stay healthy. If the snake is starving, underweight, etc, then YES it is wrong!! That snake could be perfectly healthy for all we know. That is all that I am saying.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 11:55 AM

Well considering it's getting WAY less than pretty much everyone i've ever talked to or read about has recommended to feed a BP of that size i'm fairly confident in saying that it's not as healty as say, my snake, that I take care of.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the snake in question is underfed at best, and if they can't be bothered to feed it properly I shudder to think at what else isn't getting done.

And as an aside, When you have a difference of opinion with someone and you completely ignore every point they make and just keep on trucking with the same thing over and over again, it's a lecture not a discussion.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 11:58 AM

Of course it's not as healthy as your snake. And by healthy, I mean fat and happy. It is true that feeding less is sometimes associated with neglect, and that is a sad thing (and hopefully not true in this case!). Hence at the beginning of the thread I was saying that someone should have informed this man about his snake.

Ontario_herper

11-02-03, 12:00 PM

Sunrunner... if 1 rat for my BP is not enough why is it still alive? Please answer this question. You're full of it! If you look at the natural history of these animals it is clear that they have a low metabolism in turn, do not eat as much as the average snake. Snakes such as morelia have a higher metabolism so they require more food. This is very evident by the shape of the body. Why do you think BP as so thick? Because they chase rodents around 24/7 NO! Because they are oppotunistic feeders and in turn may not eat very often.

BP in the wild and in captivity may not eat for months (because of their environment and choice) is this cruel? Should you chase these snakes around in the wild and make sure they eat every 7-10 days? It is a fact that many herpers over feed there animals. Some do it to get an animal up to breeding size as quick as possible and others do it out of ignorance.

Slannesh..... Ease up on the caresheets.

"Ntice I haven't jumped all over you for feeding your snake every 10-12 days instead of 7-10. A couple of days here and there or even a week I could see as different snakes being different."

You've got to be kidding me. You're talking about a difference of two days. That is just absurd!

And the comment about the feeding of a dog is also ridiculous. You seem to be relying way too much on other people's information rather than your own experience.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 12:20 PM

So hey, since you only feed your poor snake once a month, how old is it? How long have you had it? How long is it and what does it weigh? I'm curious, just how stunted and sicky it is.

Heh, yeah I suppose the last 6 years of keeping my ball python healty and well fed is no experience at all... Nevermind the many other species iv'e kept personally and observed over the years.

It is because of their low metabolism that you can keep reptiles on a starvation diet in many cases for years. That does not make them healty by any stretch of the imagination.

I said in a previous post that my snake has not always eaten every 7 days. There was a time she didn't eat for almost two months. I was concerned of course, because it was a chance in routine for her, so I made adjustments and eventually moved her to a bigger enclosure, she started to eat just fine almost immediately after. Has ever since.

If the snake chooses not to eat a meal or even several meals it's not a big deal provided that it's healthy and well fed to begin with.

Ontario herper- I'll ease up on the caresheet when you ease up on the stupid. Have you spent much time observing Ball Pythons in the wild? I know I haven't, so how do you have any idea how often they manage to eat? I certainly have no idea.

So I draw on my own comparitively meagre experience and the experience of others who have been keeping these snakes for years. I read several dozen caresheets long before I ever purchased my snake, the fact that she's pretty much bang on for average length and weight tell me I didn't horribly screw up in raising her.

Did you even read the rest of the posts? we're talking about a difference of 7-10 days VS 28-31 days or more. The comment you quoted me was me telling her I agreed that not every single Ball Python in the world absolutely MUST be fed every 7-10 days religiously or it will die a horribly painful death. THAT would have been absurd :)

The comment about the dog was to illustrate a point. I notice you take a page from kristina by ignoring every valid point I made about temperatures, and poisonous substrate. Makes it sort of hard to debate anything with you.

Regardless, I think anyone who bothers to read this thread will get the point that feeding an adult Ball Python only once per month might keep them alive for a time but it's certainly not the way to have a long lived, healty one.

Scotty Allen

11-02-03, 12:27 PM

A wonderful, sound sensible post David, good on ya'. There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here.

Invictus

11-02-03, 12:41 PM

Well, this has turned into quite the debate. Far be it from me to pass up on a debate. :)

I'm with Slannesh on this one. Feeding your BP once a month is horrible care, in my opinion. If your BP is not hungry, it will not eat. But how do you know if it IS hungry? Does it tell you? Does it tap on the glass a certain way? NO! If it eats, it's hungry. But you will never know this if you are only offering it a meal once a month. If you are offering it a meal every week and it only takes every second meal, then you know your BP likes to eat every 2 weeks. But if he eats like a champ when you feed him once a month, well DUH! It's probably STARVING by then! You are doing your snake a sever injustice by not at least offering a prey item at MOST every 2 weeks. Any longer than that, and you shouldn't be keeping a ball python.

Vanan

11-02-03, 01:03 PM

Just had to add my 2 cents just so that this isn't one sided. I have to agree with Scotty and D Smith on this one. I personally feed my ball python (male) only once every 6 weeks! Man am I cruel! This is cos he's older and he's a male. Keep in mind this is the routine we've refined over a few years now. Remember, snakes don't get hungry per se. They are ruled by their metabolism. A warm snake will need more food. THis is not to say either is right or wrong.

BTW, Slannesh, it may be you who is misinformed about ball pythons in the wild. Many think just cos a snake eats, breeds and grows with a certain set of temps and humidity, immediately it becomes the way it should be in the wild. WRONG! I challenge any breeder who argues so. Anyone. Snakes, most of them are very forgiving in their husbandry. Here's a case study. Take your beauty snakes for example. Let's go even further to single out the Taiwans. People have bred them and raised them at temps similar to cornsnakes. They grow up to 6ft in a year! Are you trying to tell me that Taiwan has your typical Florida climate?! Or are you saying that a snake to grow 3/4 of it's full length in 12months is normal?! Remember same thing here. Higher temps, higher growth, longer snake in shorter time (with most species, some are too fragile though). Just because something works doesn't mean it's right!

I guess it's all about which is right. Keeping snakes as they would be in the wild or making it convenient for us and changing what their used to. I guess being humans it's just natural to change our environment before changing ourselves. *sigh*

Vanan

11-02-03, 01:05 PM

But how do you know if it IS hungry? Does it tell you? Does it tap on the glass a certain way? NO!

Erm...ever noticed your snake starting to move around being restless. It's what we usually call foraging behaviour. :)

JonD

11-02-03, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Vanan
Erm...ever noticed your snake starting to move around being restless. It's what we usually call foraging behaviour. :) Actually, it 's quite easy to know if a snake is hungry just by observing it's daily behavior. That might be harder to see for the one's who reside in rubbermaids.;)

mykee

11-02-03, 01:48 PM

The equivalent of a BP eating once a month would be humans being on a diet. We're getting what we need, just not enough of it. BP's can SURVIVE on said 'diet' but why? MOST of us have the resources to feed our snakes as often as we wish. Why would someone only feed their BP's every 4 weeks, or even every 6 weeks as someone up on the thread mentioned? Either ignorance, laziness, or both. Period. If you took on the initial responsibility of purchasing the animal, it remains your responsibility to feed it. Not starve it. To do anything else is wrong.

Katt

11-02-03, 02:14 PM

even every 6 weeks as someone up on the thread mentioned?

Laziness? Lack of resources? I think not. Ramses (the bp in question) was Vanan's first snake and he's had plenty of resources of time and food to feed and care for him. Ramses is an old male bp. Feeding him every six weeks, is Ramses choice. He won't eat more often than that and it's not like we haven't tried!

Please, don't start the insults without proper knowledge of the situation at hand.

Ontario_herper

11-02-03, 02:20 PM

Lets clear something up for the less educated!

Several people have been throwing around the term starving. They have been insisting that by feeding my BP monthly I am "starving" this poor poor helpless animal.

According to the Webster's dictionary starving means: to die from lack of food.

Perhaps you can take your claims of my "starving" ball python to the next PETA meeting! Perhaps you will get more sympathy from them.

I dare one of these "moral", "responsible", "non-ignorant", and "humane" keepers to feed there BP only once a month. See what happens. You snake will no doubt lose some weight. And I bet you'll end up with a snake with a healthier weight that will live much longer.

So dare I say that the people who over-feed their snakes are un-ethical and ignorant? Well I guess I just did!

it's nice to see that Scotty and Vanan will have snakes that will live to be over ten years in age.

Slannesh.... I'll try not to take your comment about me being stupid too seriously. Some how that comment seems like words that used to get thrown around when I was in grade 1. I guess that says something about you!

Vanan

11-02-03, 02:55 PM

Don't mean to pursue this further as I believe Dave has said enough for me but...
The equivalent of a BP eating once a month would be humans being on a diet.
could I take it that you're doing research on a comparison of caloric input and output on humans and snakes? If not, please do not make uneducated claims like that. Btw, last time I checked the reason people were on a diet was to be healthy ;)

Sunrunner

11-02-03, 04:59 PM

First the larger issue here was not that the person in question was feeding his ball every month but why. The simple fact he did to control growth rate was what made him grossly irresponsible and an unethical herp keeper. Secondly, Ontario Herper I will answer your question. The reason why your ball python is still alive. My first guess would be you haven't had it that long. But on a more educated level that will also tie into Vanan's point on caloric input/output is the fact that it has adjusted it's activity level to comprimise for it's diet. By restricting it's activity levels it can slow it's metabolism so that it's meager food supply lasts longer. This is a well documented fact in many reptiles, ball pythons included. So although a ball could go very long periods without food (i had a WC rescure go nearly a year) that does NOT mean it is getting an adequate supply of aminos and nutrients to ensure good immune function and general health. It may not "look" unhealthy but that doen't mean it isn't. You claim it will live a long good life well it may quite awhile but not to good considering with a complete lack of proper diet it's instinct will be to barely ever move. Think what you want you will anyway, but feeding an adult ball python once every 4-6 weeks is poor husbandry at best. Every 10-12 days for an adult seems much more reasonable. Plus comparing your captive snake to one in the wild is a completely futile comparison considering one of the major points of captive husbandry is to provide optimal conditions for the herp in question not recreate an already under par/over competitive wild type life style. Have you ever seen a WC snake...if this is your version of a healthy snake then you have no right to be a herper. I do not know you or your snake so realize this is my opinion not an attack on so take it or leave but I feel it's my duty as a herper and an educator to tell you my view. Any less would be irresponsible on my part. I am not an uneducated herp keeper I have done my research and continue to study and learn everyday. I concede the point that just because something works doesn't make it right but we cannot use an overstressed grossly inadequate eco system as a basis for what is proper for our animals. Since becuase of us (humans) the wild is no longer an adequate system for these animals. Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders...true..but why? Because loss of habitat and competetion for food has driven them to that. That doesn't mean it healthy for them. For an example I refer you to a ball python kept at the Philadelphia Zoo that lived 45 years in captivity...refer to their web site and you will see it's feeding regimen was every 7-10 days. I'm sure many more successful ball keepers could supply you with countless more examples of balls exceeding ten years in age following a more conventional feeding schedule.

ohh_kristina

11-02-03, 05:11 PM

The reason my opinion is the way it is is because I recently rescued a 7 (estimate!) year old WC ball python. It's previous owner had him for 5 years and fed him one small rat once a month for all of those 5 years. When I recieved this BP, it was (weight wise) quite healthy. It could stand to bulk up a bit, but it wasn't thin. Now that he's with me, he eats 1 large rat every 5-7 days..because that's when he acts hungry. He has put on a significant amount of weight, but isn't obese..just nice and thick. He is 4 feet long, by the way. A small rat for a 4 ft long BP once a month? It seemed to do him fine! He was hungry, yes, but unhealthy? no.

Oliverian

11-02-03, 05:36 PM

Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders...true..but why? Because loss of habitat and competetion for food has driven them to that.
So, you are trying to say that before humans started wrecking habitat, ball pythons were actively searching for prey like a cornsnake might? I'm sorry, but I don't think that's a very good argument, considering it isn't true. These snakes have been built by nature to eat whenever food comes near. They aren't built to travel around and search out their prey. Just wanted to clear that up.
-Tammy R

Ontario_herper

11-02-03, 05:37 PM

"It may not "look" unhealthy but that doen't mean it isn't. You claim it will live a long good life well it may quite awhile but not to good considering with a complete lack of proper diet it's instinct will be to barely ever move." How is my snake completely lacking a proper diet? It is fed the same diet as yours just not as often. Feeding your snake does not automatically make it healthier.... that should be common sense. Just because we can feed our snakes as often as we will eat doesn't mean we should. Ever noticed how many fat dogs are out there? But I guess that is okay because the more food the better!

The fact that you think BP's (and I guess other snakes) are opportunistic feeders because of what man kind has done to them is just silly. this is the way they are built. Why go look for food when your body (and mind) allow you to sit in a spot for an exteneded period of time. There extremely slow metabolism allows them to do this without suffering bodily harm.

I am not saying that just because a snake may have a real tough time finding a prey item in the wild we should replicate that in captivity. I'm simply pointing out that their natural history shows that snakes in general do not need to feed as frequently as some may believe.

Katt

11-02-03, 05:38 PM

Have you ever seen a WC snake?

Have you??

Out here, we find many many rattlesnakes and bullsnakes, and they appear the pinnacle of health. Don't compare imported snakes to captive bred ones. How would you feel if you were stuffed in a bag, flown thousands of miles, underfed and dehydrated. Probably not the best either.

Let me restate this so that you guys understand more. Vanan offers Ramses a meal everytime he feeds, but his bp only takes a rodent 1/6 meals. We have kept this snake in a tank with heat pad and heat light, in a rubbermaid with heat tape, and even allowed him to free roam in a sealed room and allowed him to come down and feed himself when he felt like it. And well, he only feels like feeding once a while.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 05:55 PM

Vanan, I never claimed to know a thing about Ball Pythons in the wild. In fact if you'd read my post again you'll see I said I know nothing at all about their feeding habits in the wild.

If your old male Ball will only eat once every 6 weeks then that's what he eats I suppose. How old is he by the way? Balls can live a long time I believe the current record in captivity is 48 years or so.

*Quote from my post*
"Have you spent much time observing Ball Pythons in the wild? I know I haven't, so how do you have any idea how often they manage to eat? I certainly have no idea."

Please double check posts before accusing people of taking the exact opposite stance you claim they made *rolls eyes*

And now a quote from Vanan
"BTW, Slannesh, it may be you who is misinformed about ball pythons in the wild. Many think just cos a snake eats, breeds and grows with a certain set of temps and humidity, immediately it becomes the way it should be in the wild. WRONG! I challenge any breeder who argues so. Anyone. Snakes, most of them are very forgiving in their husbandry."

Care to cite your sources since you're obviously such an authority on wild Ball Pythons? Thought not.

Ont_herper: Feed your snake as little as you like, it has no effect on me, but I feel sorry for your it. I used the term starving once. And I think that's exactly what you're doing... Hey who knows, prove me wrong in 10 years or so if your snake is still alive. I'll happily eat my hat. For the record my Ball will be 16 or 17 by then.

The stupid comment was juvenile, sorry for that. However calling me Unethical and Ignorant was the same thing so you aren't above mudslinging yourself.

An animal doesn't become an ambush predator overnight, that requires thousands of years of evolution. I would imagine that Ball pythons are hunting the in the wild the same way now as they were when man was learning to walk upright.

Diet has nothing to do with instinct. Instinct is a simple response to stimuli. You dangle what the snake perceives as 'food' in front of it and it strikes. if it doesn't recognize it as food it doesn't

I have not once said that anyone should be feeding any snake daily. Certainly not Ball Pythons. I think the 7-10 day figure is pretty good for an adult BP in general, some will be ravenous by then and others will skip every other meal i'm sure. I know my snake never takes longer than 10 seconds or so from the time the rat's nose passes the top of her cage to when she strikes at it. She's usually moving around 'hunting' every 7 days , on the evening I feed her as well, so I think I have her schedule about right.

Invictus

11-02-03, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Katt
Let me restate this so that you guys understand more. Vanan offers Ramses a meal everytime he feeds, but his bp only takes a rodent 1/6 meals.

This, in my opinion, is responsible herp keeping. As I said in my post, as long as you offer your BP a meal more than once a month, it will decide if it's hungry or not.

But as for the heightened level of activity being an indicator of when it's hungry, ummm... no. Not in every case. Our BPs get active every single night, even if they have a belly full of rat. So heightened activity means exactly squat in many cases.

Vanan

11-02-03, 06:24 PM

Please double check posts before accusing people of taking the exact opposite stance you claim they made *rolls eyes*

If I did so, my mistake. Apologies.

Care to cite your sources since you're obviously such an authority on wild Ball Pythons? Thought not.

Don't recall me saying that. But if you deem me so so be it. BTW, I mentioned snakes in the wild, not ball pythons specifically. And yes if so, I do have some experience seeing snakes in the wild. And let me tell you, I have yet to find an undernourished snake in the wild. (at the risk of sounding pompous) I have seen garters with injuries living in an industrial park, I have seen baby bulls born just a month or two ago, never have I seen an undernourished snake. But in captivity, man, there's just too many undernourished snakes to count. And to set the record straight, I still challenge anyone to show me that just cause a snake does well under certain temps and humidity, means that that's how it is in the wild. Maybe you should be the one researching on the wild habitat and climate of ball pythons if you think that the WC ball in your local petstore was suffering being in the wild.

You dangle what the snake perceives as 'food' in front of it and it strikes. if it doesn't recognize it as food it doesn't

*ahem* Are you saying that if a snake doesn't strike and eat, that it doesn't know a rat as food? Hmmm...makes me wonder how much experience you have with snakes.

Not to say I am an experienced keeper. Far from it as I'm still learning everyday. In fact, show me twenty years from now that your bp is 100% healthy and I will be the first to admit I may have been wrong. But unfortunately I have seen otherwise only too often. I have not yet seen ANY evidence to prove that over feeding isn't detrimental to a snake's health. In fact, that part about the Pholadelphia Zoo doesn't state what size prey that bp was fed.

And for the record, my ball python, which I am so cruel to underfeed, is at least 6-8yrs old. I got him about 4yrs ago and he was a full grown adult then. Probably a WC animal originally as there weren't very many bp breeders where I was from back then.

My final stand on this is that, if one thing works for a snake, it may not necessarily be the same for another. Younger snakes obviously feed more than older ones. Although I have to mention that I do not agree about underfeeding it to stunt it's growth. I feed my younger snakes between 5-10 days depending on age and metabolism. A racer or garter would obviously eat more than even a cornsnake. My reason for getting involved in this thread is for those others who are reading this and hoping to learn something. Always remember, there's no set rule with snakes (with some exceptions). Snakes are still not domesticated yet (close but not enough) and there's only so little we know. Before we start jumping on the bandwagon and agreeing with everything someone says, I'd rather someone form an educated opinion of their own. Listen to both sides and us your best judgement (if you're capable of it). :)

P.S. I wish I could pull up that article on the largest black rat in captivity (and albino btw) who only eats one rat a month. Remember it being on the KS forums. Anyone know where it is?

marisa

11-02-03, 06:44 PM

Personally I do not believe just because a snake eats it is hungry. This is the very reason animals in some homes, at the zoo, etc are on diets. Because many, including humans, will eat no matter what, hungry not hungry etc.

This is not to say I put them on diets. lol. I do not believe once per 4 weeks for an adult ball python is starving it. Not by far. These animals can fast for long periods of time and in some cases fast so much out of the year that 12 meals a year is not uncommon from what I hear from some keepers. Not to say you or they SHOULD do this but I do not see how it can be called "starving" or cruel.

I feed my male cornsnakes twice per month. Any more than that and I can see a noticable amount of weight coming on. Corns IMHO are very much overfed in most cases and in the wild almost every one you will find is a slender snake, not a fat one. So in that case, I only feed twice per month. Others feed their corns 4 times per month. Am I starving mine? No, just taking what I know from limited experience, reading research and others experiences and my own two eyes. :D

Lots of ways to do things thats fOr sure
marisa

PaulBar

11-02-03, 07:25 PM

I too don't think a rat a month is enough. The snake will try to survive on it, sure, but what choice does it have if you only give it one rat a month? Also I have seen people keep snakes in deplorable conditions without proper heat and they sometimes do survive, but this is not the way to treat them.
Why Ontario Herper thinks its fine to feed a snake once a month is beyond me. I don't agree.

I feed my Tangerine Honduran Milksnakes ever time they start actively looking for food which for one snake is around every 5 days, and another snake every week. These are year and half old growing snakes and not full size. If you know your snakes they will tell you when they need to be fed through their actions.

Regarding idiots who buy herps while not knowing how to care for them, I think some of the responsibility should lie with the seller to ensure the buyers is informed about how to care for them properly. The time of Pet stores selling animals without educating the buyer should be past. In fact if I was a pet store, and the buyer did not seem to know what he was doing and had no desire to listen and learn, I wouldn't sell to them.

In fact I wouldn't sell a snake to Ontario Herper if they think one rat a month is fine.

Paul

PaulBar

11-02-03, 07:35 PM

In reading all the posts, I think the majority of herpers feel you should feed every week, versus a minority who feel its fine to feed once a month.

I say again, a snake feeding once a month is a snake living, sorry surviving on a barely sustainable diet.

Paul

Vanan

11-02-03, 07:48 PM

So heightened activity means exactly squat in many cases.

Hmm...I sure hope you're willing to back that statement. :) I've only heard too often, people advising newbies that an indicator to feed is when their snakes start roaming. I guess they're all wrong in saying so? Who's to say that your snakes weren't still hungry and looking for more food just after you've fed them. Or heck, they could just as well be looking for a place to go hide and digest their bellies. The heightened activity I'm refering to is days after they've fed and they start moving around more than just hugging the basking spot.

Vanan

11-02-03, 07:54 PM

Why Ontario Herper thinks its fine to feed a snake once a month is beyond me. I don't agree.

These are year and half old growing snakes and not full size. If you know your snakes they will tell you when they need to be fed through their actions.

Seems like 2 contradicting statements. How do you know Dave's bp is still growing or not? And like I've mentioned again my bp which I feed only once in 6 weeks is done growing and prefers not to eat for your info. I doubt he's self-inducing starvation.

I think the majority of herpers feel you should feed every week, versus a minority who feel its fine to feed once a month.

Being the majority doesn't mean a thing. :)

Katt

11-02-03, 07:57 PM

In reading all the posts, I think the majority of herpers feel you should feed every week, versus a minority who feel its fine to feed once a month.

This is too broad a sweeping statement. It is fine to feed certain snakes once a month. Have you ever kept ETB's, or Candoia, or Senticolis? There are species that are fed, every few weeks, or months. Over feeding them can lead to death.

Perhaps you should restate, that there's a majority who think every snake should be fed every week, compared to a minority which believe in species/specific feeding regimes.

Slannesh

11-02-03, 10:19 PM

I've not once mentioned any species other than Ball Pythons at any point in this thread. I don't know enough about most other species to make educated statements. Comparing different species of reptiles is not terribly useful either. Different snakes and lizards have entirely different needs. I would hazard a guess that similarly sized boids would have similar feeding requirements as Ball Pythons but I certainly don't know that for fact.

We've gotten away from the point here anyhow, proper husbandry. We all agree that it's silly to set in stone when and how much a Ball python eats. Some would take food every day if offered, and some older specimines will eat only rarely. No one who is in the "feeding once a month is fine" camp has addressed any of the other questions that have been asked. Such as temperature, enclosure size, hides, ect.

What it boils down to, is commonly accepted husbandry practices. Read the caresheets that are available. Not all of them agree on the finer points but once you read a few you'll notice that most of them agree on the basics. With so many people coming to the same conclusions and raising healthy snakes for years or decades can they all be wong? Unlikely. Are we accurately recreating the wild environment the snakes are from? Probably not. We offer controlled environments for our pets, and I think trying to educate those new to herping with somewhat flexible guidelines is best. When asked feeding questions in the past i've said that I feed my Ball once a week, she rarely refuses a meal, but I don't sweat it when she does. I know it won't hurt her to do so once in a while.

I have a question as well. Since several of you seem to think that once a month is appropriate why not once every 2 or even 4 months? All of my information says that once a week is appropriate and you seem to think that going four times that long is no problem at all. So what about 4 times your figure? Would you worry about someone who told you they feed their full grown ball python only 3 times a year? Perhaps from that perspective you can understand our concern.

Sunrunner

11-02-03, 10:47 PM

Excellent points Slannesh. What is most important is offering the snake food at appropiate intervals. Of course these intervals vary based on species. I know not every snake within a species is the same but the vast majority are similar. Now perhaps this snake Ramses only likes to eat every 6 weeks or so and he is doing well on that regimen. Good and I hope he stays healthy, but what I think the concern is that it sounds as if Ontario Herper is saying all balls can go on this regime. That I do not accept for second. No offense to you but just because you say so doesn't mean I'll accept it. If herpers listened to every croonie that spit out some advice we would have alot of hurting snakes on our hands. Experiment and refine...do what works best for the animal in question but of the vast majority of adult balls I still think every 7-10 days is proper. That what mine and many hundreds of others have been following for years and I know mine are very healthy and NOT over wieght by any means. We learn by doing things differently thats the way it is and maybe...just maybe...there is something to what you guys say. But what has been working successfully all this time and continues to work is what I and hopefully the majority of others will follow, if it isn't broken why fix it.

Ontario_herper

11-02-03, 11:50 PM

I wasn’t aware that there were questions regarding temperature, enclosure size etc...???

I would advice that you could go beyond just care sheets. Try reading some of the various books out there. Keep in mind that many (if not all) of the care sheets out there are either written by, or ripped off from breeders. That said, many breeders feed their animals as much as possible so that they can prepare there animals for breeding. Female pythons use huge amounts of fat (and other resources) to produce eggs. This preparation for breeding may reflect on said care sheet.

My BP is an adult animal. I have no intentions of breeding this animal while it is in my care. This animal is fed roughly once a month. That said, the snake is of an appropriate weight, is quite alert, as active as you can expect a BP to be, and seems to be in a “happy” state. I’ve been keeping snakes for roughly nine years and this snake behaves in a similar manner to the hundreds of other snakes that I have kept (yes this includes many animals that were fed weekly).

Do not think for a minute that I am some low-life keeper that only feeds his snake once a month so I can afford beer money on Friday night. I have a freezer full of rats and if I felt that my BP needed an extra meal I’d give it to him (which I do from time to time). But the fact remains this snake holds a good weight and appears in all respects to be a healthy captive. So my question to you (and anyone else) is why would I feed it more?

I’ve heard repeated comments on this thread about how you know a snake is hungry when it starts moving around. And oh man! When it starts moving around you better feed that sucker! WHY? My adult carpet pythons and my water pythons will eat till the cows come home. Yet I only feed these snakes every 2-3 weeks. Is it because I’m a cruel keeper or I’m too cheap to feed them? NO! It’s because they maintain a very good weight on this feeding schedule. Why feed beyond that just because some care sheet tells me to?

BTW my female water python is “fat” at a feeding rate of every 2-3 weeks (usually more like 3).

Slannesh

11-03-03, 12:25 AM

Ontario: You seem to be very selective as to what you read and comment on in other people's posts.

I've never said that the caresheets are gospel. But they are a very good guideline for basic husbandry when taken as a whole. Some of them contain bad info i'm sure, which is why I find as many as I can and cross reference them, when 98% of them say the same thing it's usually a safe bet that there's a reason for it.

I'm sure some breeders only care about producing as many animals that grow as fast as they can so they can sell them. I'm also sure that most small breeders take exemplary care of their animals and treat them as beloved pets. I know I do.

The suggestion to look for books on the topic is a good one as well though, I should have suggested it sooner.

As i've said several times now, the whole point of this thread was basic husbandry. Feeding only once per month seems too far between feedings for me, but do what you like.

nolagurl

11-03-03, 12:38 AM

Hehe I'd like to see someone *vomit with rage.* That sounds kind of violent and painful.

Invictus

11-03-03, 09:20 AM

Now now, Vanan, don't be a hypocrite here:

Originally posted by Vanan
I've only heard too often, people advising newbies that an indicator to feed is when their snakes start roaming. I guess they're all wrong in saying so?

Then you also say:

Being the majority doesn't mean a thing.

So, the majority of herpers think that an active BP is a hungry BP? Well, as you said, being in the majority doesn't mean a thing. So yes, I say that they ARE wrong in saying so, since myth herping seems to be more rampant with ball pythons than with any other snake currently in captivity. I think this myth is the worst out of all of them. Just because a BP is curious or likes to roam around DOES NOT necessarily mean it is hungry. Not all BPs are cut from the same cloth.

Who's to say that your snakes weren't still hungry and looking for more food just after you've fed them. Or heck, they could just as well be looking for a place to go hide and digest their bellies. The heightened activity I'm refering to is days after they've fed and they start moving around more than just hugging the basking spot.

First off, if you saw the size of the prey we give them and the size of the enclosures we keep them in, you'd eat those words. :) They are not looking for a spot to digest, as their rubbermaids are quite small - there is a finite number of "spots". Secondly, anyone who knows me knows that I advocate huge prey items for boids. Believe me - they are NOT still hungry.

Ontario_herper

11-03-03, 09:50 AM

Slannesh you seem to live and die by care sheets posted on the net. All of your arguements have no original thought and you seem to be blinded by these care sheets. Pick up a book on breeding pythons (care sheets aren't detailed enough).

The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas by Ross and Marzec clearly states that adults being preped for breeding should be fed heavily, the female to the point of being just overweight. But that adult animals NOT being bred should be maintaned on a lean diet because of the risk of obesity.

The main topic of this post was feeding. This is the base topic I have stuck to in all my posts.

My whole point is that ball pythons CAN and DO live on one rat a month. People have come on here and said that I am cruel and shouldn't keep herps. One even went as far to say he wouldn't sell me a herp (I don't remember offering to buy?). People's only defense for why they should be fed every 10 days (or whatever period) is that once a month is too long and they wouldn't do that. Well WHY wouldn't you?

As for snakes running around cages in search for food...

Last time I checked it was impossible to talk to a snake. We don't know for sure why they are out "hunting" around. It would seem likely that at least some of the time they are out looking for food. In the case of a ball python I would guess they are out looking for a place to employ the "sit and wait" strategy. I would also guess that many times in the wild their hidding spots many be chosen for reasons other than catching food at said location. Perhaps they enjoy the temperature and tightness of that spot. When the snake decides that it's hungry it may move to a location where it thinks it will have the best chances of catching prey.

RepTylE

11-03-03, 09:55 AM

Lisa

11-03-03, 10:01 AM

there are times when some of my snakes go a whole month with out eating. also how often do we see "my ball python hasn't eaten in 2 months!".

RepTylE

11-03-03, 10:14 AM

Often enough, Lisa that it shows that there may be a mechanism at work that causes the behaviour.
What I would like to see is information from people who feed smaller meals more frequently and periods of going off off feed. Is there a difference between feeding that way and the bigger meals method? Is feeding them heavily and fattening them triggering a behaviour where they go off feeding because their fat reserves are optimal?

djc3674

11-03-03, 10:24 AM

Last year my BP fasted for 7 months. I was bringing home small rats ever two weeks and he showed no interest. Then I cut back, and offered a meal once per month..and still no interest (even though he was active at night). This seems to be common behavior with BP's...thats why this summer I fed him often and he plumped up nicely. Now for this year, his last meal was the beginning of Oct....two weeks ago I offered him a small rat and he showed no interest. Last night he was moving all around. I am going to try to feed him again today. Most likey he will not eat. But I will try, and then I wont try again til the end of the month. If this year is anything like last, he wont eat until May.

So I wouldnt classify feeding once a month as starving, but I definately would not hold back feeding, if your snake will eat more often than that. One thing I know from keeping a BP for the last two years is that when they are NOT fasting...they eat like pigs and will take a meal every 7-10 days..or 10-14 days depending on size.

RepTylE

11-03-03, 10:56 AM

A friend of mine has an adult BP that went off feed last December and didn't eat until I think the middle of May. Funny thing is that it didn't look like it was losing much size until the last two months.
My BP is still eating well so far. He hasn't refused a meal yet. Heavy emphasis on yet!!!!

Vanan

11-03-03, 11:04 AM

Snakes in the wild have to deal with seasonal variations in the food supply. That translates to a feast or famine type of existance. One would assume that through evolution, nature would program snakes with a strategy to deal with that fluctuation ie storing fat .

That there is the essence of my arguements. What works for one may not work for another. Yes, I do concede, an active bp isnt always a hungry bp, but it sometimes tends to indicate that. If everything else is well, it may be safe to try feeding it.

They are not looking for a spot to digest, as their rubbermaids are quite small - there is a finite number of "spots".

So you're saying that being in a small container means that they have ample space to look for a hiding place. Try this lil experiment. One with a snake in a bigger enclosure with many hiding spots, and one with a small rubbermaid with no hides cept for a water dish. It's an age old thing,small doesn't mean adequate hiding places. Seems like an contradictory statement to me.

Oh and btw, I wasn't being a hypocrite when I was refering to two seperate issues there Invictus.

I think there has been enough said and common ground has been struck, i.e. each individual snake has its own needs. There's is no blanket rule. This was why I even bothered participating in this debate. To show people to use their own judgement for their own snake. :)

rwg

11-03-03, 11:46 AM

I dont know if 1 rat per month is enough or not. I do think it's a mistake to underfeed based on the ir feeding habits in the wild. A wild snake is responsible for it's own welfare. You are responsible for the welfare of your snakes. Nature is cruel. Why would we want to replicate that cruelty?

In the wild snakes die. They starve, they get eaten, they freeze to death, and meet their demise in a variety of other ways. Few animals in nature die of old age. Is this what we want for our snakes? Even humans before agriculture ate what they could get, when they could get it. Many starved, and the life expectancy was half what it is now. Should we go back to that because it's natural?

rg

Ontario_herper

11-03-03, 12:13 PM

Personally, I do not skip meals, expose animals to internal or external parasites, or expose animals to less that ideal temperatures in the pursuit of re-creating their natural environment. But there are things that you can learn and apply to captive husbandry from reptilian natural history.

Ontario_herper

11-03-03, 12:17 PM

And now let me pose this question……

Is it cruel and in-humane to breed reptiles?

After all I was accused of starving my ball python by feeding it only once a month. How about cooling an animal and not feeding it for several months? Breeding can be extremely taxing on the health of a reptile, females especially. So how do you feel about putting animals through this sort of ordeal?

mykee

11-03-03, 12:40 PM

Lisa: all the time, but if that same person came online EVERY month and said it, honestly, what would be the advice given?

"My whole point is that ball pythons CAN and Do live on one rat a month."
Congratulation, science experiment completed, you've proved your point.

Slannesh

11-03-03, 04:06 PM

Ontario: bunch of stuff.

I said caresheets were useful. I never said they were the last word, and I hardly "Live and die' by them. In fact I cautioned people from reading one and taking it as correct. Read as many as you can find. Books were written by people too you know. They can contain mistakes just as easily as any caresheet. And yet, an online caresheet can be corrected in seconds, a book? Well next edition. Which basically means never unless it's a huge selling title. The information they contain was collected in exactly the same way, captive observation and experimentation.

I've been keeping herps in one form or another most of my life. Ball Pythons for the last 6 years. I know nothing about breeding ball pythons nor have I ever claimed to. I don't breed my snake and have no plans to in the near future.

You seem to think that books can't make mistakes. I assure you they can, there is a reason that the encyclopedia britannica is published every year. To add new information and to correct past mistakes. It happens, bad information can be found from any source. So get off your high horse and stop talking down to us like you're some sort of expert. You aren't. Neither am I. When you have 20+ years in the field and have raised hundreds of Ball Pythons and still have your original ones healthy and active at 20+ years of age i'll concede pretty much any point you make.

Since, to my knowledge, no one that has participated in this discussion thus far has such experience it's turned into nothing more than a pissing contest.

On to your next point. *Quoting from Ontario herper*
"My whole point is that ball pythons CAN and DO live on one rat a month. People have come on here and said that I am cruel and shouldn't keep herps. One even went as far to say he wouldn't sell me a herp (I don't remember offering to buy?). People's only defense for why they should be fed every 10 days (or whatever period) is that once a month is too long and they wouldn't do that. Well WHY wouldn't you?"

People's only defence.. that's funny. I gathered my information from years of reading any source material I could find, Books, websites, the discovery channel, whatever. That, and now years of experience. I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm. I am certain your snake will survive for a long time on the feeding regimine you have it on. Snakes in general have a very slow metabolism, being cold blooded is an advantage in that regard.

This isn't a court. I don't have to prove you're being cruel to your snake. I think you are feeding it much less than you should be. Perhaps i'm feeding mine more than she 'needs' to simply survive. Any animal can last for a long time on barely adequite nutrition. You could feed your ball only a few times a year and it would likely live for a few years. Slow metabolism and cold blooded. You never bothered to answer my question.. Would you be concerend if someone told you they were only offering prey to their Ball python once every 4 months? I know I would be.

It would be another matter entirely if you were in a situation like Vanan, his snake refuses food except for once every 4-6 weeks or so. That's fine, the snake is choosing to eat at that point and for THAT snake it's perfectly normal. Would your snake take prey once every 2 weeks? Once a week? I would imagine it would, knowing general ball behavior.

Next question, could your snake survive a 7 month fast like djc3647's did last year? I'm confident mine could. She's never missed more than a couple of meals the entire time i've had her, but I know it is not unusual for Balls to refuse to eat for months over the winter.

But since I probably learned that from a care sheet i'm sure it's wrong information and I should immedately panic and take my snake to the vet *rolls eyes*

About enclosure size. I know many people successfully keep snakes and lizards in what I consider small enclosures. Now I can only speak about animals I have actual experience in but this is a whole other topic.

Breeding: It's a biological drive that all creatures have, just like eating. Since I doubt your Ball is Wild Caught your implied opinion on breeding really makes you look foolish. Reproduction uses a lot of stored energy, calcium and many other things. That's why people who breed them take the precautions they do by cooling the snake and feeding them extra in preparation to breed them. While I don't breed BP's myself I have done some reading on the subject. We wouldn't have the hobby we do today if not for those who bred snakes in the past so I think you should recheck your attitude there. Unless of coure you think there's nothing wrong with year after year of unnecessary wild capture when there are lots of CB animals available.

KristenM

11-03-03, 07:13 PM

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"We wouldn't have the hobby we do today if not for those who bred snakes in the past so I think you should recheck your attitude there."

If you are refering to Dave's last post, read it again, hes posing a question not a personal opinion. And Dave has more respect for the "old time herpers" (no offence), the very people you are talking about who bred snakes way back before you or I was even a zygote, than the majority of herpers I know.

Also you metioned something to the effect that this whole thread is a "pissing contest" because someone without 20+ years keeping and breeding ball pythons hasn't posted on here. Well Scotty Allen made a post and supporting what Dave said, and he has been keeping and breeding snakes for 20+ years. And is an "old time herper" himself (no offence Scotty), you know one of those people who "bred snakes in the past". Does his opinion not count?

Also I know first hand that the animal that Dave is speaking about is a rescued animal, I am very familiar with its history. And I know that it may very well be wild caught, because it is a rescued animal and no one knows for sure where it came from originally. Alsoo the snake is an healthy adult animal that has been in Daves care for almost 4 years and is thriving! I'm am 100% confident that the animal in question could survive a 7 month fast, because I have seen it survive a 6 month fast first hand.

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"You seem to think that books can't make mistakes.... So get off your high horse and stop talking down to us like you're some sort of expert."
I'm pretty sure we are all aware that books, or anything else in print , can have mistakes. His point is that there is much more infromation in the right book, or from the right person first hand and less room for error, because they are edited by people who know what they are talking about. Unlike, the internet where any anybody can make up a care sheet (I saw on your site that you have a ball python care sheet comming, looking forward to it!). I know many great herpers who don't go on the internet for a good reason, they think most of it is crap, kinda like this thread. Not to say there is not good info on the net, or that things can't be learned on a site like this. I know I have gotten some great info on web sites abotu herps. But ask any of the old time herpers, those who have worked with snakes for 20-30+ years, or any creditted herper at all, I would put money down that they would rather use, a book, than the net.

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm."

Now whos on a high horse? With this statement you are implying that you are right. There is no right answer to this debate. Again going from what I said above about info on the net, no offence to those who posted, but just because people agree with you does not mean they know what they are talking about or that they are credible sources. I'm sure many of the people who posted on here have good reason for their opinion but that does not mean that is the norm or that its right.

Anyways, I would love to hear some opinions from those who have kept snakes for 20+ years, I think we could learn something.

Ontario_herper

11-03-03, 07:30 PM

“Would you be concerend if someone told you they were only offering prey to their Ball python once every 4 months?”

Simple answer, yes. I don’t believe that a ball python would be able to maintain a healthy body weight on a 3 meal-a-year schedule. As I’ve pointed out a dozen times my snakes holds a healthy body weight on it’s current feeding schedule.

“could your snake survive a 7 month fast like djc3647's did last year. I'm confident mine could?"

I have little doubt that my snake could go a year without food. I guess this will be number 13… my snake is of good health and holds good body weight. Thus it could survive a long period of time without food (as we know many snakes can).

Just because your snake may be a bit fatter than mine doesn’t make it better off. Note: I have not seen your snake and you have not seen mine so this is all speculation. Sure…. Your snake may be able to go 14 months without food while mine may only be able to go 12 months. I weigh only 190lbs. Someone weighing 550lbs may be able to survive a longer period of time without food. Does that make him superior to me? Would you asses this 550lb person as being healthier than me? Somehow I think not! So this question you asked me seems somewhat useless.

Of course you don’t have to prove that I am “being cruel” to my snake. I was simply asking WHY you think I was. I wanted you to go beyond a couple care sheets and a few peoples opinions (their expertise we know nothing of). You gave me no facts of how my snake was going to eventually die from “starvation”. Instead you just said that it would.

To some extent I agree with your comparison between books and on-line care sheets. Both may contain errors. But keep in mind the amount of effort it takes to publish a book in comparison to that of creating an on-line care sheet. If you give me 30 minutes I can publish on the net. Can you do the same with a book?

Of course breeding is a biological fact. I am 22 years old you hardly need to point that out to me lol. And of course I am all for breeding snakes. I wouldn’t have any of the snakes in my collection if someone hadn’t bred them. I was just pointing out (in a sarcastic way) that you have to essentially starve a snake, in a controlled way, to get it to breed. So why do you not consider that cruel?

BTW I claimed no where in my post to be an expert! The basic message of all my posts is that my snake does fine on its current feeding schedule. It doesn’t take an “expert” to look at a snake and decide whether or not it’s under weight.

Cerastes

11-03-03, 10:09 PM

I just wanted to add a few points of enlightenment...

I have 20 years experience with snakes, including ball pythons and I have bred that species a few times also.

I have also had the pleasure of visiting David Smith's collection more than a few times and can vouch completely for his keeping expertise!

Now, I won't name names - I simply have more class than that. There are way too many newbies typing up a lot of crap.

It is way too easy to get caught up in one of these rant threads on the internet. It's the very reason I generally stopped making posts a couple of years ago. The arguements get singled out and then everyone gangs up on a few individuals mostly because they don't understand enough to read between the lines on the internet.

In this case it seems (as usual) it's the more experienced keepers getting lamb-basted by the newer keepers! The statements made by David and Vanan regarding ball python husbandry are accurate. Most of the statements depend on the condition of the animal in question - if an adult ball python is being kept properly (and not being cycled for breeding) an appropriately sized meal every month or so is not unreasonable! You people need to learn more - I'd be listening to Scotty more if I were you! He said (to refresh your memories) "There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here."

Now, I digress. I will return to my normal absence from the internet, and let you guys get back to your senseless arguements. I just hope when all the dust settles you learn to listen to those with more experience than yourselves - that's how we all learn!

Steve Marks

Hello, this is Lori Dunn - Steve's better (or worse) half. I am a reptile keeper at the Toronto Zoo with 12 years experience. We keep Python regius in the area I work in. Working with a wide variety of animals, you need to be very aware of their metabolic and nutritional requirements. It is far too easy for captive animals to become overweight - and i have seen my fair share of this and the subsequent death of the animals as well. Most animals in captive environment do much better in the long run if kept slightly hungry. It mimics their natural condition in the wild - as I'm sure you are all aware, most wild animals ARE on the hungry side. Reptiles especially, are not equipped physiologically to metabolize fat. Especially when they are overfed rodents that are in turn fed a high fat diet ( mouse chow, dog chow etc.) Wild rodents feed on seeds and vegetation that is much lower in fat content and so not much fat is passed on to the snake devouring it. Kids, please read up on your reptile husbandry. Overfeeding snakes is the kiss of death for that animal. Maybe not immediately, but in time. Our ball pythons also get fed only once a month, sometimes they go longer. They are healthy snakes and we have been reproductively successful with them as well.

Lori Dunn

Sunrunner

11-04-03, 02:03 AM

We can all learn something everyday :) And all though I have not changed my view I do honestly believe their is more then one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Like in my other line of work as a fitness professional as in reptile husbandry not one things works for every subject. Perhaps Dave's way is right so perhaps is mine or Slannesh's. But ore likely so are both. Sorry for being stubborn. Only be keeping our minds open and listening can we improve. If things were still done like they were 50 years ago (feeding turtles dried ant eggs, etc) where would our captive herps be? Sorry Ont Herper for getting to personal a better idea would be in the future for us both to learn from each other and not bicker over our differing views. There is no one way. Everyone has valid points and every one has invalid points. I personally know reptile keepers with just as much experience as the above two (Lori & Steve) who believe the opposite and have been equally successful. There is so much more we need to learn of these incredible animals that saying my answer is the right one is not even possible. We could all be totally wrong with our care. Only by experimenting and study can we learn. Let's try and do it as a team...not rivals.

Slannesh

11-04-03, 04:39 AM

Interesting how Ontario Herper just HAPPENS to have a friend with 20+ years of experience poke his nose into here, not right off the bat when we all wondered what the more experienced among us have to say, but when I said i'd shut up when someone experienced came in and proved us all wrong.

You'll excuse me if i'm a tad skeptical i'm sure.

Where was an experienced keeper being 'lambasted' by someone very new to the hobby? I've been keeping herps in one form or another for almost 20 years. Seriously for the last 6 or 7. Most of the other people sounding off on this topic seems to be of similar experience.

On to a few quotes

The first two from our suddenly present friend of Ontario's Cerastes

There are way too many newbies typing up a lot of crap.

Aw, I think he's talking to me. Nice to know i'm making a lot of friends. Thanks. What exactly have I stated about Ball Python husbandry that was 'crap'?

"Most of the statements depend on the condition of the animal in question - if an adult ball python is being kept properly (and not being cycled for breeding) an appropriately sized meal every month or so is not unreasonable!"

Agreed, different animals eat at different rates. We've already clearly established that. What got me started in the first place was the orginal post stated:

"bp about 3.5 ft long. This guy said he feeds it a small/med rat once per month "so it won't get too big." If that wasn't bad enough he said he just dumps the rat in live so "he doesn't have to touch it."

Would you agree that is adequite husbandry? I sure wouldn't, and said so. So then tell us, what is unreasonable? We already know that offering a suitably sized prey item once every 4 weeks is acceptable to you. How about 6 weeks? 3 months? 4?

And another one from my dear friend Cerastes:

I'd be listening to Scotty more if I were you! He said (to refresh your memories) "There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here."

My memory is quite good, along with that interesting reading thing my parents taught me when I was 3 or so. My snake is not overweight. So what relevance does that have to whether or not only feeding a BP once a month at all? None. I would come down on someone just as hard if I heard they were feeding the same snake every other day.

And a parting shot from the above:

I will return to my normal absence from the internet, and let you guys get back to your senseless arguements. I just hope when all the dust settles you learn to listen to those with more experience than yourselves - that's how we all learn!

Thanks, hopefully you'll do more than just wave your buddy's flag next time you come around and tell us all how right he is again. Again I ask, with slightly different wording this time. Which aspect of Ball Python husbandry that I offered was "Senseless"?

And just in case his 20 year+ experience friend wasn't enough:

Hi Lori!

I am a reptile keeper at the Toronto Zoo with 12 years experience

Iv'e done a lot of volunteering at the Calgary zoo while I still lived in Calgary, (which in case you are wondering involves feces more often than pretty much any job you could ever want) Would you mind clarifying what exactly is a "reptile keeper" For us? Are you a zookeeper? Animal Health Technologist? A Vet perhaps? I would just like to get the facts straight.

It is far too easy for captive animals to become overweight - and i have seen my fair share of this and the subsequent death of the animals as well.

At the zoo you work for? I thought they were all properly fed and you "you need to be very aware of their metabolic and nutritional requirements" Or does that apply only to the ball pythons, which is the only species we're talking about in this thread.

Wild rodents feed on seeds and vegetation

I hope you are aware that most nuts are high in fat content.
A handy table I found using a quick Google search.
Nuts (1oz) Saturated Fat (g) Total Fat (g)
Mixed nuts, oil-roasted 2.5g 16g
Pecans 1.5g 18.3g
Pine nuts 2.2g 14.3g
Pistachios 1.7g 13.7g
Walnuts 1g 16g
Ginkgo nuts 0.1g 0.6g
Butter nuts 0.4g 16.2g

1 ounce = 28.35 grams
So all but two of the above examples were more than half fat of those two one was very close and one was very low.

Seems like a low fat diet for mr Rat to me! Which I suppose is totally irrelevant since Ball Pythons do not eat rats in the wild at all. But i'm sure she knew that.

Kids, please read up on your reptile husbandry. Overfeeding snakes is the kiss of death for that animal. Maybe not immediately, but in time.

Nice and condecending. Yet still no actual information. I'm closer to 30 than 29 so I hardly qualify as a 'kid' to anyone other than my parents and grandparents. And did you miss the part where I mentioned the literally dozens of caresheets and books, shows on the discovery channel that i'd read and seen regarding snakes in general and Ball Pythons in particular? Or did you just jump in here, offer no valuable information other than basically 'our friend is right and you're all wrong so shut up about it' and then want to take off?

Please. All you've done is given the pot another stir while trying to add credence to your friends theory with no facts or hell, even specific observations to back any of it up.

In all honesty i'm more or less done with this topic myself by now, it's obvious those of us who agree with my way of thinking will continue to do so and those of you who agree with Ontario will also do so. For everyone's pets I hope we're both half wong and i'm feeding her twice what she should be eating and you're only feeding them half. Hopefully we'll have less dead snakes that way.

Feel free to get in your last word and parting gifts :)

Slan.

Slannesh

11-04-03, 05:04 AM

Just thought i'd fire off a quick reply to KristenM as well since i'm at it :)

Scotty had this to say:

A wonderful, sound sensible post David, good on ya'. There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here

I said "To my knowledge" I have no idea who Scotty is, in fact the only person I know that uses this forum at all is Invictus.

Scotty said he agrees that overfeeding is bad. I agree that overfeeding is bad. I would jump on someone probably even harder for feeding an adult Ball Python every other day than I would for once a month. Granted I doubt there are many Balls that would willingly take an appropriately sized meal every other day. he did not however say he agreed with everything Ontario herper has posted in this thread however. Just that point.

Onto your post:

If you are refering to Dave's last post, read it again, hes posing a question not a personal opinion. And Dave has more respect for the "old time herpers" (no offence), the very people you are talking about who bred snakes way back before you or I was even a zygote, than the majority of herpers I know.

And just for clarity the post of Ontario herpers' that we're talking about

And now let me pose this question……

Is it cruel and in-humane to breed reptiles?

After all I was accused of starving my ball python by feeding it only once a month. How about cooling an animal and not feeding it for several months? Breeding can be extremely taxing on the health of a reptile, females especially. So how do you feel about putting animals through this sort of ordeal?

He was defending his normal practice of feeding his snake once a month by asking if I thought it was cruel to cool a snake to get it to breed.

Some species of snakes will not breed unless such precautions are taken. I've already stated I don't know much about Ball Python breeding so I don't know if it's necessary for them to do so. Breeding is a natural thing for every living thing on this planet. Of course it isn't cruel, it can definately be traumatic for the animal, but it's not cruel. I think only offering food once a month is cruel. If he was offering every two weeks and the snake refused like Vanaths does i'd be fine with it. But he's stated that he doesn't do that.

Moving along

His point is that there is much more infromation in the right book, or from the right person first hand and less room for error, because they are edited by people who know what they are talking about. Unlike, the internet where any anybody can make up a care sheet

So there are no knowledgeable people on the net offering good advice at all. Caresheets don't ever get edited do they? And none of them could possibly be written by anyone who has any knowledge of the subject of course. What rubbish. Books are generally written by people who know what they're talking about. They're edited by someone who cares about spelling and grammatical errors and how many pages of space the book will take up and how many pages of 'useless information' they can crop so it'll all fit into the X # of pages the Publisher decided to grace this particular author with.

I also recall cautioning people against reading only one caresheet and taking it as 100% correct. Read as many as you can find, When most of them agree i'm a lot more comfortable accepting that information as correct. There are people publishing completely untrue information in caresheets. My method catches most if not all of those errors.

Quoting you quoting me ;)

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm."

Now whos on a high horse? With this statement you are implying that you are right. There is no right answer to this debate. Again going from what I said above about info on the net, no offence to those who posted, but just because people agree with you does not mean they know what they are talking about or that they are credible sources. I'm sure many of the people who posted on here have good reason for their opinion but that does not mean that is the norm or that its right.

Was my statement incorrect? Most people did agree with me. I even admitted that there is a possiblity that I may be wrong alltogether. If that's a high horse I think i'll stick with my broken down pony, i'll see more of the terrain. :)

Have a nice day.

Slan.

KristenM

11-04-03, 08:22 AM

Slannesh, Ontario Herper =Dave. It says his name at the bottom of every post now with this information yes, Scotty Allen agreed with Ont Herp AKA Dave. And yes the post I was talking about was Daves!
Again if you want to read my post you will see that I clearly stated "Not to say there is not good info on the net, or that things can't be learned on a site like this. I know I have gotten some great info on web sites abotu herps." So yeah I alreayd stated that things can be learned on the net.
In the last statement I made you missed the point, so I'll write it again. I was saying that just because people agree with you it doesn't mean its the norm. In order for you to know what norm is you would have to know how every person who has ever kept a ball python has fed it!
Steve and Lori can speak for them selves about what you said about them, but what I will say is I think you should read steves post again. Because from what I saw your name wasn't mentioned once. And it sounds to me like hes talking to everyone in general not just you! As for Lori I can say 100% that yes she is a keeper at the Toronto zoo, who works with reptiles. I know this because I worked at the Toronto zoo for a bit as well.

Sunrunner I think its good that you can appriciate what other people have to say! And can see some one elses point of view. Not to say you will feed your snake once a month, but you can understand that there may be a bit more to learn. I think its also awesome that you said that thing about keeping minds open to learn. I agree 100% I think also agree that no one can be right, its a matter of personal opinion, just agree to disagree! Everyone thinks what they are doing is best for the animal so leave it at that. If the animal is healthy then why change what you are doing?

marisa

11-04-03, 10:52 AM

I myself am a HUGE mewbie with ball pythons, but I would think with any captive snake whatever we can do to stimulate natural behaivours or mimic natural instincts would be a good thing when those things are beneficial to the snake or its body. Since wild ball pythons are known for long long periods of fasting regularly, I think in most cases feeding less would be far better than feeding more.

That's my opinion anyways.
Marisa

Ontario_herper

11-04-03, 12:58 PM

For the record this post is directed at Slennesh.

Before I type out anything else let me just say it is a sad and pathetic thing that you gather your information (and would go as far to source it) from the discovery channel. Do you have any idea how fake nature documentaries are? I do…. I’ve seen them being taped! Please do not use nature documentaries when you are debating something with me. It seriously makes me want to run to the washroom and vomit.

For the record I have numerous friends with 20++++ years experience with herps, especially snakes. These people would absolutely blow your mind (I know from first hand experience). The have forgotten more than you may ever hope to know about keeping captive snakes. It was a complete fluke that Steve happened to post at that particular time. If you feel differently then deal with it!

“I've been keeping herps in one form or another for almost 20 years. Seriously for the last 6 or 7.”

Is this more serious keeping you’ve done over the past 6-7 years the one ball pythons you’ve had for the same amount of time? Please feel free to expand…..

Your comments to Steve are pretty weak. Not sure there’s a lot that I can say about them. Other than they were really weak and lacked any real value.

Your comments to Lori showed a complete lack of intelligence.

“Iv'e done a lot of volunteering at the Calgary zoo while I still lived in Calgary, (which in case you are wondering involves feces more often than pretty much any job you could ever want)”

Wow what a profound statement. Can I ask what else you expected to do at the zoo? Animals rid themselves of bodily waste… were you not aware of that? Someone has to clean these nice gifts up. Would it not make sense that the people who care for the animals (see zookeeper) clean up after them. Hmmm I thought that would be common sense. Guess not???

I guess you’re back up on that horse again because that comment sure sounds like you think you’re too good to be cleaning animal poop. Who cleans your ball python at home? Do you hire a zookeeper to do it because you’re just to dam good?

You have insulted others for not sharing information. Can I ask exactly what information you have shared? That is of course, other than your lack of original thought and common sense.

The thing that gets me is the huge amount of ignorance you carry around with you. You’ve read some care sheets and you’ve kept one lonely ball python (correct me if I’m wrong), and oh god! You watched discovery channel. But do you have any idea what a ball python looks like when it’s fed only once a month? I know this because I’ve done it! I also know what a BP looks like when it’s been fed every 7-10 days. I’ve done it! So you see I have EXPERIENCED both sides of the argument. You’ve only had contact with one side. But because the care sheets on the net and the discovery channel told you to feed your snake every 7-10 days……. That’s all you know! So how can you come on here when you don’t know one side of the story? It’s simple, you can’t!!!

So unless you have something WORTH saying this conversation seems somewhat over?

Slannesh

11-04-03, 07:20 PM

Ontario herper:

I was going to let you have the last word but I obviously pissed you off with my last couple of posts and would like to clear up a few misconceptions that you tried to state about them.

Before I type out anything else let me just say it is a sad and pathetic thing that you gather your information (and would go as far to source it) from the discovery channel. Do you have any idea how fake nature documentaries are? I do…. I’ve seen them being taped! Please do not use nature documentaries when you are debating something with me. It seriously makes me want to run to the washroom and vomit.

I find it highly amusing that every time I mention a source of information you seem to think that i've stated it's the Holy Bible of snakekeeping. Caresheets DO have usefull information, Not all of them but enough that you can glean what you need to from them. Same with books, which you seem to conveniently forget that I read as well. I find the Discovery channel and The Learning Channel both to be very valuable information sources on all sorts of topics. I've seen some very good shows on herps. So please, vomit away. By the way, How many documentaries on Ball Pythons have you seen being taped? I'm curious how many trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan you've made? I've never seen a documentary being taped, I think it would be a very interesting experience.

It was a complete fluke that Steve happened to post at that particular time. If you feel differently then deal with it!

Yes, i'm sure it was.

Is this more serious keeping you’ve done over the past 6-7 years the one ball pythons you’ve had for the same amount of time? Please feel free to expand…..

I'd be happy to! What I meant was that i've kept various herps as pets for most of my life. Frogs and Salamanders when I was a child, Garter snakes and anoles as a teen and more recently my Ball Python and Leopard Geckos. Until I was in my early 20s for the most part they were just pets and I had a general interest in herps. Since then i've researched more thoroughly into the specific species I keep and am interested in, hence being more 'seriously' into the field, rather than just 'general herp knowledge' I've found information whereever I could get it. The net, books I own, other books at the library, even the dreaded documentary ;) Clear enough?

Wow what a profound statement. Can I ask what else you expected to do at the zoo? Animals rid themselves of bodily waste… were you not aware of that? Someone has to clean these nice gifts up. Would it not make sense that the people who care for the animals (see zookeeper) clean up after them. Hmmm I thought that would be common sense. Guess not???

I did exactly what I expected I would be doing. Cleaning up animal cages. Obviously my attempt at humor was lost on you. No matter. *shocked* You mean animals have to defecate too?!?! I had NO idea! :eek: (That was sarcasm by the way, just in case it was too high brow for you again)

For the record, the zookeepers at the Calgary zoo don't do a whole lot of shoveling, that's the job for volunteers and apprentice zookeepers ;)

I guess you’re back up on that horse again because that comment sure sounds like you think you’re too good to be cleaning animal poop. Who cleans your ball python at home? Do you hire a zookeeper to do it because you’re just to dam good?

LOL! Yes, I am too good to clean up animal feces. LOL. (sarcasm again BTW ;) )
I assure you that no one but me cleans up after any of my herps, and I make quite sure that their environments are clean. I've cleaned up more feces than most people are likely to ever see in thier lifetime. And I was both happy to do it and proud of the experience and knowledge I was gaining because of it.

The thing that gets me is the huge amount of ignorance you carry around with you. You’ve read some care sheets and you’ve kept one lonely ball python (correct me if I’m wrong), and oh god! You watched discovery channel. But do you have any idea what a ball python looks like when it’s fed only once a month? I know this because I’ve done it!

Ignorance? Oooooook. I haven't read 'some' caresheets. I've read dozens, specifically about Ball pythons. I've likely also read all the same books you have, it's not like there are hundreds of them on the subject. I also have spoken to anyone I could find locally that has more experience than I do about Ball Python husbandry.

You are correct that I only keep one Ball Python. Same one i've always had and i'm fairly certain i'll have her for some decades to come. I don't have to underfeed my snake to know it's a bad idea. I've varied the space between feedings as well, i'm sure we all have at one point or another. I think 2 weeks was the maximum I ever went between offering food to her. I think that once a month is insufficent and telling a new BP keeper that feeding once a month or so is fine is just irresponsible. You certainly haven't done anything or offered any information in this entire thread that has changed my opinion on that subject.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who's bothered to read this far in this thread. More than once i've let myself fling mud and egg Ontario herper and his cronies on instead of just letting them have the last insulting word and letting this thread die. Sorry for that. I would also encourage anyone who is new to keeping Ball Pythons to read not only the many good caresheets available on the net, but to read any books on the subject as well. Probably the best source of information you can get is the direct experience of others. Join your local Herp society, get involved and learn from those who know more than you do and once you know something about it, pass that on to the next new guy/gal who comes along and wonders about keeping herps.

Thanks, and have a great day all. This should be my last post on this thread unless someone decides that they just have to get a few more insulting remarks in before letting it go ;)

Slan.

Cerastes

11-04-03, 09:05 PM

Hi everyone! Lori Dunn here again. Slannesh seems to be interested in my position at the zoo - I work in the Americas pavilion and am a keeper there who specializes in reptiles. Since I know you will ask -as you seem to have so much time to delve into the minutia of people's lives ( including your own) - My past experience involves reptile keeping at the National Zoo in Washington D.C working for renowned herpetologists Bela Demeter and Trooper Walsh. I'm sure you will look them up just to make sure they are real and actually exist. Let me give you a teaser - Trooper was the first to breed komodo dragons in north america and a renowned Chondropython expert blah blah blah - you look it up. I have been trained at the Toronto Zoo by the now infamous Grant Ankenman - an expert in herpetoculture and breeder of snakes for well over 20 years. Yes I have seen my share animals dying from being overweight and developing subsequent health problems both in the private sector and at zoos, and I speak out against it whenever necessary. Thank you for your rundown on the fat content of certain nuts. I'll be sure to refer to it the next time I shove a handful into my face at a cocktail party. Unfortunately, I said seeds not nuts ( quick!! go google for the fat content of seeds!!). This wild rodent diet is still not nearly as fattening as the food that breeder rodents get. Oh but I forgot, according to your own herp website ball pythons eat lizards and other snakes (snicker ). Better consult a real book to find out that they actually feed mainly on a rodent called a gerboa which is similar to a gerbil. I guess you missed that in "all the dozens of caresheets, books and t.v shows that you've watched on snakes and ball pythons" For the others out there that are still confused, a healthy ADULT ball python should be fed appropriately sized mice or rats every two to four weeks. Generally, smaller more frequent meals for med to large boids is not as healthy a schedule as is a large meal once every few weeks to a month. There are books out there which may give evidence of this, but generally it is learned through years of experience in keeping snakes, and that info is passed down from the " old timers" to other budding herpers. Oh yeah , many of the old time herpers I have worked with would cringe at you keeping your ball python on astroturf - but hey that's a whole other topic! Oops! There I go stirring the pot again!! Enjoy!

Slannesh

11-04-03, 11:46 PM

Hey Lori, I owe you an apology. You did indeed say seeds instead of nuts. My bad.

I found it somewhat convenient that you and your partner just 'happened' across this topic no more than 24 hours after the post to Ontario herper that I would back down when someone with considerably more experience than either of us sounded off on the topic, so i'm sure you'll excuse my skepicism.

I will indeed look up the names you brought up, i'm interested in knowing more. I suppose I could google the fat content of seeds, but since most nuts ARE seeds, I think it's unnecessary :)

As to the astroturf, I haven't kept Shiva on that for several years. Since you've checked my website so closely i'm sure you'll notice the date on those pictures as being from May 99'. I've been using either Repti-bark or fir/orchid bark mulch for quite a while now. Since you brought it up however, what do you house your balls on? I know substrate is probably the single most debated topic for most herps.

The blurb on my page about Balls eating snakes and other lizards could be entirely false, Again it was information I got many years ago :) I do know that they don't eat domestic mice in the wild, which was the point I was trying to make.

themangler

01-03-04, 10:46 PM

I was at the "grocery" store getting rats what ?and where

mark129er

01-03-04, 11:02 PM

It was sarcasm, I refer to the pet store as my grocery store. Did this post ever get blown out of proportion.

scalawag

01-04-04, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Slannesh

So there are no knowledgeable people on the net offering good advice at all. Caresheets don't ever get edited do they? And none of them could possibly be written by anyone who has any knowledge of the subject of course. What rubbish. Books are generally written by people who know what they're talking about. They're edited by someone who cares about spelling and grammatical errors and how many pages of space the book will take up and how many pages of 'useless information' they can crop so it'll all fit into the X # of pages the Publisher decided to grace this particular author with.
then...

As to the astroturf, I haven't kept Shiva on that for several years. Since you've checked my website so closely i'm sure you'll notice the date on those pictures as being from May 99'. I've been using either Repti-bark or fir/orchid bark mulch for quite a while now. Since you brought it up however, what do you house your balls on? I know substrate is probably the single most debated topic for most herps.

The blurb on my page about Balls eating snakes and other lizards could be entirely false, Again it was information I got many years ago :) I do know that they don't eat domestic mice in the wild, which was the point I was trying to make. [/B]

You disproved your prior statement , time to update your web site

scalawag

01-04-04, 12:59 AM

Maybe the snake is a healthy weight and to big meant he didn't want it to get too fat. He didn't say too long.

Dozer

01-04-04, 01:27 AM

Nice response everyone :D

Simon Sansom

01-04-04, 01:59 AM

Now, people need to realize that <html>boids</html> are equipped by nature to go for relatively long periods without food, being generally relatively sluggish, ambush hunters.

I know of breeders of several types of boas or pythons who feed their adults only once a month, except perhaps a bit more for the females during breeding season.

I have personally had an adult male Solomon Island Ground Boa, <html>Candoia carinata paulsoni</html>, go off feed for no apparent reason for a period of a little
over a year, only to resume feeding again just as mysteriously. Unbelievably, the animal lost very little body weight during his extended fast.

I have had other <html>Boids</html> go off their feed for various periods of time, up to seven months, but none quite as extreme as the Ground Boa.

And, it's the same ol' thing - folks quoting care sheets, and hearsay, when they in fact have very little actual practical experience to draw upon.

As our good friend, Mr. Scotty Allen has mentioned, people are beginning to find out that perhaps we are over-feeding many of our captives. It seems that obesity may be one of the main causes of egg-binding in female colubrids, for example, among other things.

Cheers!

Simon

Swampwalker

01-04-04, 02:53 AM

I've just read this very long and sometimes humerous thread. A lot of excellent post by some great herpers in support of Dave's (ontarioherper) comments. Unfortunately many of them don't post here very often so they may not be as well known as some of the newbie herpers who have 3000 posts to their name. I'm glad to see Cerastes and Lori (yes she works at the T.O. Zoo) get into the conversation, as well as Scotty Allen.

Slannesh, one of the reputable breeders that you quote hasn't even been into snakes for more than a couple of years. I know him, he has an amazing set up and a lot of quality animals, but he is raising them for breeding and he hasn't been around long enough to say that this is the way to feed for healthy long life. I am in no way saying that his animals are unnhealthy, and I would buy from him if I was into high end morphs, but I'm more interested in natural looking animals, field herping and conservation.

I hope you will take some time to think about what some of these people are saying, because they do have a lot of experience.

Simon Sansom

01-04-04, 12:34 PM

Also, I should mention that I've been keeping Jamaican Boas, <html>Epicrates subflavus</html>, for ten years, and have bred them successfully on two occasions.
My adult male feeds only, on the average, about five or six times A YEAR! During the winter and breeding season he goes off feed totally for months, like most male snakes. He is, in spite of himself, beautiful, healthy and reproductively active. On half-a-dozen meals a year...
...And these are slender, relatively "active" <html>Boids</html>, not heavy-bodied, fairly sedentary ones.

Remember, just because someone has 3000 posts on the forums, or has put out a care-sheet, does NOT necessarily make them an experienced "herper".

Cheers!

Simon

Simon Sansom

01-04-04, 03:12 PM

I'd also like to reply to Mark129er's original post...

Yes, I understand how frustrating it can be to deal with "ill-informed" people, however we must remember that MOST people don't really know anything about snakes, just old pet-store "folk-lore", lol!

When I talk to people unfamiliar with snakes, they are always amazed that I feed my snakes pre-killed, thawed rodents. They always say, "Oh, I thought they had to have live food!". It seems to be a common pre-conception that snakes need living prey.

You just have to be polite, and try to broach the subject of feeding pre-killed. The guy may never have even thought of it, if he's a relatively inexperienced herper. This is where you, as a more experienced keeper can make a difference, by offering someone the benefit of your knowledge in a positive way.

Just my two cent's...

Hang in there!

Simon

MouseKilla

01-05-04, 01:08 AM

Holy crap, someone with some actual credentials posted! This is far too rare an occasion. Often, not always but often, someone like myself that is not a total newb but far from an expert will come on here to seek answers to their questions as they advance in the hobby and what we get is this kind of rambling BS. I've said it before and it may never come to be but I think it would be nice to have a forum on this site where we could direct our questions to someone we can trust knows what the hell they're talking about. It's all well and good to do your research, observe your particular animal and ask other keepers what they do but getting answers that are backed by vast experience or professional training is far better. Maybe it's not possible to bring that type of service to this particular venue, I don't know one way or the other, but it would certainly be better than 6 pages of shite and nonsense which is what we have here for the most part.

daver676

01-05-04, 10:36 AM

So did you actually vomit or what? :p

MouseKilla

01-05-04, 12:59 PM

Not me, I shat in disgust. lol!

Ontario_herper

01-05-04, 10:54 PM

Nope no vomit! And I don't think you can efficiently censor who says what on a forum like this (or the net in general). That is why books can often be a more desirable source of information. Not that there aren't reliable people on the net but there is a tonne more junk to weed through. It takes much more time and effort to publish a book than write up a web-page. That is a fact!

Swampwalker

01-06-04, 12:20 AM

Very well said Ontario Herper

Swampwalker

01-06-04, 01:09 AM

I'd also like to reply to Mark129er's original post...

Yes, I understand how frustrating it can be to deal with "ill-informed" people, however we must remember that MOST people don't really know anything about snakes, just old pet-store "folk-lore", lol!

Maybe the guy wasn't ill informed and he just doesn't want a fat overfed snake, as Ontario Herper and others have suggested. Maybe further discussion with the person could have been educational to either person, instead of walking off wanting to "vomit with rage". Maybe this person has a lot of experience and knowledge to share. Just because it differs from the care sheets, or breeders ("breeder folk-lore") in a hurry to raise their animals to breeding size, doesn't mean that his methods are wrong.

Linds

01-06-04, 02:05 AM

Great arguement.... lol... a bit tense, but otherwise a lot of great discussion :)

Originally posted by Slannesh
Feeding only once per month seems too far between feedings for me,

Snakes are not like people. Of course it would be naturally a little odd and unnatural, since we need to constantly feed ourselves to stay alive, for us to easily accept that another living thing may only need food less than a dozen times yearly. For you, yes! it would seem too far between, but for the snakes, it is not at all ;)

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
Simple answer, yes. I don’t believe that a ball python would be able to maintain a healthy body weight on a 3 meal-a-year schedule.

LOL you haven't met one of mine! :p Once he became a mature adult, he fasted for 1year 6days, came out of it and ate 4 meals, then has gone back in to another fast for however many more months (or longer :p). Maintained perfect body weight, and was/is alert and active.

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
It seriously makes me want to run to the washroom and vomit.

Vomit with rage, by chance? :p

Originally posted by Cerastes
For the others out there that are still confused, a healthy ADULT ball python should be fed appropriately sized mice or rats every two to four weeks.

IMHO there is too much emphasis put on shedules that -we- deem correct. We need to follow what our snakes tell us and not we what we feel they need. Of course many snakes will eat when offered since in the wild, food is not as readily available, it is insinct to take what they can (within reason). This is what causes trouble for the most part (well, gives the window of opportunity for keepers to chunk them up). Schedules are a great tool for those that have not learned how to read their snakes yet, as a safety guideline, but not the optimal way to keep them. There are some BP out there that may only need a meal every 2 months, some maybe every 2 weeks, or like one of mine, a few times a year.

Originally posted by KristenM
there is much more infromation in the right book, or from the right person first hand and less room for error, because they are edited by people who know what they are talking about. Unlike, the internet where any anybody can make up a care sheet

LOL I don't know about that. Seems most of the books you pick up have some innacuracies or blatant ignorance. Books as well, as only one persons' opinion, much like caresheets. You don't need to be a verified "expert". I have a book kicking around here somewhere that claims iguanas need to eat bird gravel to digest their food properly, and not so long as the other day I was sifting through a book on monitors that suggests they should all be kept at an even 80 degrees :rolleyes: Sure any of these tips will work if your goal is to kill the animal :/ They may have less room, but just because they have an assigned editor, does not mean much.

Scooter

01-06-04, 02:48 AM

I am new to this forum, in fact I had to get into the rift that I just read for the last, I don't know, seemed like hours, about the feeding habits of the ball python. I found it quite humorous as well as entertaining. It is good to see a lot of diversity on this forum, I only hope that people respect each others opinions and don't get into dung slinging. I agree with the moderator that just posted, the written word can be informative, but just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean its gospel. Experience is the best teacher for most things including the feeding habits of the ball python. The problem with books and the internet, caresheets, etc, is that they aren't gospel, but guidelines to assist in proper care of your animals. Each and every snake is different and could have different metabolisms, just like people and therefore different needs. Whether you feed it once a month or once a week, you will need to keep a watchful eye on the ball pythons body structure, and you can tell a fat snake from an undernurished one. All I am saying is that use the caresheets, books and internet as guidelines for proper care and husbandry.:w , and can't we all just get along, and love each other, lets have a big group hug here!

Ontario_herper

01-06-04, 04:31 PM

"LOL I don't know about that. Seems most of the books you pick up have some innacuracies or blatant ignorance. Books as well, as only one persons' opinion, much like caresheets. You don't need to be a verified "expert". I have a book kicking around here somewhere that claims iguanas need to eat bird gravel to digest their food properly, and not so long as the other day I was sifting through a book on monitors that suggests they should all be kept at an even 80 degrees Sure any of these tips will work if your goal is to kill the animal :/ They may have less room, but just because they have an assigned editor, does not mean much."

Sorry I don't know how to use this fancy quote option. Linds I agree with pretty much everything you said except for the above paragraph. As you might have been able to tell from my last post!

The net if saturated with caresheets from people who have little experience with what they are talking about. How many times have you seen caresheets where some guy has gone out and bought a herp and then written up a "caresheet" after owning only one lonely animal. This author wannabe may have only kept this one animal for a matter of days or weeks. But because of technology he can almost instantly write up a how-to guide on keeping said species.

In the case of a book said person has to invest much more time into creating and publishing his or her piece of work. Almost all books list their sources of information. This list is often where you can validate the persons work. Did they just pull this info out of their rear-end or did they compare it to and learn from the work of others?

For example, I have a book that has over 200 pages of sources. At an average of 20 sources per-page that equals soemthing like 4,000 sources. So it would seem that this person has done a life-time of research before publishing what they believe to be reliable information. This person has stated what they belive to be fact in their book and then backed it up or compared it to what 4,000 other sources have said. To me that says something about the information presented in that book.

Most web-site have ZERO sources of information.

Of course their are bad books out there. Just like their are bad web-sites. The difference is that you can much more easily check and see if the author is full of BS or not.

Just my opinions......