Sand as a substrate

[Emily-Fisher]

In the past, I have had several leopard gecko owners/breeders tell me that adult leopard geckos actually enjoy having sand a substrate more than papertowels. I too would rather use sand for my adults since it is much more attractive than paper towels. However, I am still unbelievably concerned about using it and have some questions to ask about it first.

If I was to use sand, I would use washed playsand since it's really small and if it gets consumed, it can be passed through my leos' systems more easily than other sands. BUT... at what size/age should the leo be for playsand to be a perfectly size substrate?

I would also like your own opinions on using sand as a substrate. I very rarely feed my leos crickets. I usually only feed them mealies, silks, waxies and butterworms in a dish so I'm not <i>too </i> concerned about impaction but whatever experience you can share with me about using sand would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Sand is very very tiny glass particals. Draw your own conclusions on that, LOL!

[JeffT]

Ive recently switched to it, I think it is pretty good. I just feed out of a bowl with slipepry sides, the crix cant escape it.

[makaveli]

I use it for my 2 juvies and I haven't had any problems (yet) and I feed them crix and waxworms in a dish. I guess everyones experience with sand is different? I use a new repti-cal that is almost as fine as the calcium powder I dust the crix with. The guy at my local petstore said he uses sand and has had no problems with the leo's he has at his home, and he said he has had problems with papertowels. I am not sure about playground sand though. but papertowels are cheaper!!

[Tim and Julie B]

Leos may come from dry arid regions, but not sandy ones. If you want natural, use tile for the substrate and build some very sturdy rock structures for climbing and add some "natural" looking caves. I will never again use sand. I will never again recommend sand.

Julie

[Emily-Fisher]

Julie, why is that? What happened in the past that makes you say that?

[drewlowe]

Sand sucks!!!!! Sorry to say it but it does. Too high of a risk for me to take. As julie suggested i would try slate i have one 20 gallon cage with it and it looks great!!! If you don't want to use slate then try bed a beast or eco earth (looks better than paper towels). It works great and very very slim chance of impactation.

Sand has cause impactation and so has lizard litter. For me at least and i will never put my guys and gals in that situation again!!!

Here's a link to what my gecko cage used to look like. Right now they are on paper towels but that is going to change very soon. Me and my boyfriend are about ready to fix thier cage up real nice. With huge rock chunks that we are going to break into smaller pieces to give them more of thier natural environment. I just hope it works out like we are hoping.

http://groups.msn.com/TheReptilesParadiseGroup/jamiescollection.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=105

[Phox]

Drew,

That was a nice looking settup! Was that Bed-A-Beast or Eco-Earth? I bought some Bed-A-Beast a few weeks ago and the stuff really stunk when wet, like mold. The stuff advertises odorless but I was just curious to see if anyone had a problem with the smell of it. I think I might of just got a bad batch.

[drewlowe]

Phox i use mostly bed a beast. I can never find eco earth in my area. I've never had a problem using it. It does have a small amount of smell when i first break it down but after it's completly dry there's nothing. The smell is kinda musky (maybe) if that's the right comparison. I absolutly love the stuff!!! It make for a great humid hide also. I would just pick up one of the hides and spray the bed a beast and i would have the perfect humid hide. I guess the only down side would be that crickets can breed in the bed a beast if kept moist all the time. I'm still going to be using bed a beast in my new cage for the humid hide and nesting site. It works great for a nesting site!!!

Bed a beast i have found works great!!! It's the only substrate that i personally have not had a problem with and my leos seem to like it (besides slate tiles).

[matt_winter]

drewlowe, when you are finsihed designing the cage and you take pictures i would really like to see them because i want to redo my cage also. I need more ideas on building things and buying things

Thanks

[cpt_retic]

try aquarium gravel , thats what a couple of friends of mine use. I don't know that much about geckos so its jus my 2cts.

[Tim and Julie B]

Aquarium gravel? No way! The stones are still small enough for leos to ingest, and I don't even want to imagine an impaction caused by that! The reason I refuse to use sand is because of the quantity of sand the leos will eat. If you want to see for yourself, keep them on sand for 1-2 weeks then switch to paper towels. You'll get the hint once they begin defecating. You wouldn't believe how much sand will be in the feces. Of course, I don't recommend trying it, because and impactin could result, even that time period.
Julie

[gargoyle]

I've used pretty much everything, "I've" never experienced a juvi or adult get impacted from any thing. Not to say it can't or hasn't happened, I know it has! Personally I use paper towels for all juvis and hatchlings though. But I do use a product similar to calci sand for my adults, I would never use play sand as their is no quality control for what actually goes into it (size and material) you could end up with some very sharp pieces of stone/glass that we'd never notice but to the gecko it's like swallowing a hand full of knives!

Now we've heard what everyone doesn't use or won't use,, how about he give this person some ideas and let them know what we are using!

hatchlings-juvis paper towels
Adults- calci sand and similar products (no play sand)

[KristenM]

Good info Eyespy! I will reconsider keeping my leos on sand!

Thanks

[eyespy]

I've seen plenty of owners freak out when they see how much sand has been flushed out of the digestive tracts of leos kept on sand. Chronic impaction occurs when grains of sand slowly accumulate in the digestive tract over time, often as a result of tongueflicking. That is far more common than an acute impaction where a clump of sand causes a blockage, and is much harder to detect and diagnose. It's usually not picked up until a dead animal is brought in for necropsy.

The usual outcome is rapid weight loss, followed by death within just days or weeks. Basically, most sand-impacted lizards starve to death from the sand blocking nutrient absorption. Most never develop an acute blockage that has warning signs. On average it takes 3 to 5 years for a chronic impaction to be fatal.

My friend David the bowel surgery specialist often says that sand is going to send all his kids to college and pay for his vacation home. We just hate the stuff and don't think it's safe for any reptile. David sees about 150 leos a year who die from chronic sand impaction and is able to save around 50 a year. Most are brought in far too late to help.

[drewlowe]

thanks eyespy for sharing that information once again.

Depending on age and size will determine what i house my leos on.

Babies and juvies nothing but papertowel or slate.
Adults and juvies (6" plus) depends i will use paper towels, bed a beast, slate and i'm going to try a new one that i mentioned above all the rocks will be too big for them to ingest.

[Emily-Fisher]

Well I put my favourite leo, Smeagol, on tiles to test out and I must say, it looks absolutely GORGEOUS compared to the papertowels and Smeagol seems to love it too! I gave him a little rock thing to climb on and he climbs on it all the time. I also gave him a branch and he's always on that too :) Thanks everybody for your help! I will definately do the same thing with my other 3 enclosures asap. I will post photos very soon :) Thanks everyone!

[drewlowe]

Thats great news emily. I'm sure smeagol is enjoying it. Can't wait to see those pics!!!!

[NItrO]

Hey sorry I'm not perfect in english yet. But I'd like to know what is "slate" and "tiles" ? My 4 months gecko has a sand substrate (desert bland) but I think I'll change soon.

(U can PM me the info if u want to)

thx!

Phil

[Youkai]

I use paper towel for hatchlings and juveniles, and bead-a-beast/eco-earth/what have you for adults.

Whatever brand it comes in a brick, and expands in water. I buy mine from greenhouses. Marketed for plants, it's half the cost or less even though it's an IDENTICAL product.

Here's a tank set up with it.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133leotank.jpg">

[Slannesh]

Don't you get the same risk of impaction from Eco earth as you do from sand though?

I can see why slate tiles would make a better solution, but what about the weight? Aren't they quite heavy?

Perhaps if you could give us a pic or two of your setup?

I keep my hatchlings/juvies on papertowel, but have just set up my new adult on sand as that was what he was kept on where I purchased him from. I am using sterilized play sand for the record. The calci-sand and such in the petstore is just astronomically expensive almost $20 Can/ 1kg or 2.54 lb bag. I just purchased 55 lbs of sterile play sand for just under $4.

The Eco-earth interests me though.. if it has considerably less chance of impaction than sand I would likely switch. If I were to look at a greenhouse for Eco-earth what would they call it?

I already buy Orchard bark mulch instead of Reptibark for my snake... costs $30 for a 60 litre bag instead of $20 for a 5 litre bag.

[eyespy]

Eco earth and other coconut husk substrates dissolve completely in a 5% hydrochloric acid solution, which is far weaker than most reptiles' stomach acids. Sand does not break down at all.

As with any particulate substrate, even though it dissolves completely there is still always a mild impaction risk but in nearly 19 years working with veterinary surgeons I've yet to see any carnivorous or omnivorous reptiles with even a trace of the stuff in their intestines. It does build up in hindgut fermenters like grassland tortoises and green iguanas, though.

[Slannesh]

Good to know, Looks like i'll be switching soon then.

I have never seen Eco-Earth locally however, eyespy mentioned that it's a coconut substrate? So basically shredded coconut bark?

[BoidKeeper]

What about that crushed walnut shell substrate?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Dani33]

Great info Eyspy. You've definately made me want to change. I think that I may cahnge to the coconut fibre! I may use slate in the future.

[Tim and Julie B]

The only reason I dislike using the expandable coconut products is because crickets and mealies breed in them so rapidly. The tiny bugs can really stress out lizards.

Julie:D

[drewlowe]

boid keeper-crushed walnut shells are bad also. High risk or impactation can occur when using it.

[Kara]

Would Forest bed be the same as bed a beast?? If so, then maybe I will be switiching my Leos over pretty soon.......Lots of good info here guys, thanks:)

[lizardboy007]

use reptibark my leos love it and it is natural

[Youkai]

Reptibark can easily cause impactions.

And for the love of god, PLEASE stop spamming this board!!