K through 12 Hot keeping

[Mustangrde1]

Recently I have seen a trend and attitude from many different places such as the Net, magazines , talk at pet shops. With the growing availability of venomous reptiles it appears more and more people are looking at it and the entire hobby as a GRADUATION experience.

Elementary School, We start out with Corn snakes and Ball pythons. Simple good starter animals so we keep them a few months then decide they are ready to go to Middle school.

Middle School, We get the small to medium size Boas and Pythons. Again we keep them for a while and do ok with a little high degree of difficultly on to high school.

High school, We get Retics maybe a Chondro Python or Emerald Tree Boa. OK higher degree of difficulty and learning and we keep them for a time and think ok now its time to graduate I can handle a hot.

All sounds good right!! NOT EVEN CLOSE

Think about it you now have a collection of from 6 to whatever and must meet their needs and requirements first off! Or did you just pawn them off or sell them off so you can get your next species to work in your education and graduation.

OK now we go into the Venomous Keepers.

Just the inherit danger that is obvious with those wonderful fangs should make you stop and think long and hard about it. The Keepers I have spoke to in most cases gave it a great deal of thought before deciding they wanted to keep.

You need to have a great deal of patents. Imagine a large Rattler, Gaboon , Cobra that is high spirited not responding to what YOU want not riding a hook or coming out of its cage for cleaning or a million other things. What are you going to do reach in and grab it like you would a cornsnake or ball python because your getting frustrated????

You need to have a great deal of understanding. You need to recognize when an animal is not capable or willing to be worked with that only comes from time and knowledge of a species at that time walk away NOTHING is worth your life. With the understanding also comes the needs for its health and longevity and quality of life in your care. Such as its natural habitat, temps, humidity, levels, prey. All of which have to be right some species are prey specific or require special dietary needs.

You need to have constant awareness. If you walk in a a non-venomous room and an escape has occurred you find it and catch it simple. Now you walk in a HOT room and find an escape has occurred. Not only do you need to stop in your tracks you need to get safety equipment out and then slowly and methodically find and recapture the escaped animal. This can be very tricky especially if you have a spitting cobra or very large species of viper. Imagine for a minute a large 6 foot Spitting Cobra in a tight corner of a room behind something fired up and ready to spit. Or try to get a 6 foot Rattler or 9 foot bushmaster coiled and ready to strike with a range of 4 to 5 feet or more if it uses its body to push off increasing its strike range more.

OK you walk in the room and everything is safe and secure but you need to open a cage for cleaning or shoe box with a neonate in it no big deal for a non-venomous open the cage / box clean it and your out no worries. But with a hot if its aggressive in a cage might come out after you and you better not panic. You need to open the shoe box better watch your fingers I know of a few keepers to get bit opening shoe boxes.

You need to have good knowledge of PROPER handling. Handling DOES NOT ME BY HAND. The proper tools needed to properly manipulate these animals for yours and their safety is a must and this can only be done after you have mastered everything above and received training from a qualified handler.

How do you get Patents? This is something you either have or don't you know if you are or are not. If you don't have any then don't get hots it is very much required. My Eastern Diamond Back is normally very difficult to work with and once He is out Does not want to go back in the cage It may take me 15 minutes or more to finally get him back in. being Patent and Calm with him is an absolute must. So ask yourself what would you do in that situation.

How do you get an Understanding of these animals? Reading, talking to other keepers, e-mailing Zoos and other keepers train with keepers that have the animals you want to have.

Awareness is something you either have or don't have.

Now for caging. You can keep a Boa or Corn or Python in really just about anything and I have and have had escapes. With venomous you need to have locking secure cages completely escape proof to the best of your ability. I wont knock any cages as I have kept venomous in everything from Vision to all Glass. You should have a lock on all cages and Glass with screen tops are very dangerous especially for vipers. Modifications are needed to make these type more secure. The room they are kept in should be maintained as escape proof. Vents sealed or screened inside and out. Doors should have a stop at the bottom that hits the door itself from the floor as to allow no room to get under and doors should have locks to prevent unwanted entry. Base boards should be caulked to the floor. Windows should be screened inside and out if possible. This should also include in the worst case scenario and you parish who will come get your animals. If it was not for my wife being a hot keeper also I would want to be sure they go to a facility or person who I know will give them the care they deserve.


You need to have a source for antivenom for the species you want to keep or at least know where the nearest location that has it is. You should have an emergency contact and protocol book in the room with you to be taken to the hospital with you. Contact local Doctors near you to find one that has experience with snake bites and go speak to him and be honest with him as to what you will keep and if he would be willing to help you in the event of a bite. Having a specialist or doctor that you know and knows your wishes can save you a lot of time in the event of a bite.
Keep a living will in your protocol book with your specific wishes.



Getting trained. I know its hard to find someone as a rule but patents and persistence pays off. That said once you find a keeper willing to train you talk to him and watch him work with animals and see if you feal safe around him if you don't find another don't stick with him so you can say I am trained now. Remember you can adopt his bad habits if your not careful or try something you see him do and that's not always safe. I love saying "God made reptiles Midwest made tongs."

Last thing. Keep non venomous and aggressive species for a year. Every time you get bit put "I COULD HAVE DIED TODAY" put the time and date and post it where you see it every day. At the end of the year see how many times that year you could have died. If your a parent write "TODAY I COULD HAVE DIED AND LEFT MY KIDS WITHOUT A PARENT." Ya I know I will catch flack for that but as a parent its something I thought about.

I don't want to discourage anyone from keeping Hots if it is in their heart to do so. But I would like people to relies it is not a graduating experience or for a novice. These are wonderful beautiful animals to work with if everything is done right and safety.

Scott

[cantil]

Very well written post and I couldn't agree more. The only thing I would like to comment on is the notion that aggressive non-vens can prepare you for hots. While you can practice handling techniques with aggressive / wiry non-vens they will never get you in the mind set for dealing with hots because somewhere at the back of your mind you know you can't really be hurt. This is the same reason why venomoids don't prepare you to keep hot snakes because although they may behave similarly they don't enforce the same psychological reaction. Just my two cents.

[Mustangrde1]

Cantil Thank you.

You are 100% correct. just to clarify the refferance was more for a safty issue before someone even starts training . working with aggressive non-venomous and keeping the post it's might make them think twice or 200 times before even starting training with the real thing or even wanting to ever deal with a hot for that matter.

[RPlank]

Excellent post, Scott! Should be required reading for anyone even considering hots. I don't have any hots, and probably never will. Would it be cool to have one. Yup. Cool enough to gamble with my life evey time I walk into a room containing hots? Nope.
Thanks for a great post!
This thread should be stuck to the top of this forum permanently! :cool:

Randy

[Matt]

great posting scott....definitely valuable info for ALL herpers looking into keeping hots!!!!

[daver676]

Good post, but in my opinion, captive hots belong in zoos.

[Mustangrde1]

Daver no offence at all but what if people said all animals only belong in zoo's and that you had to give up everything you keep because only zoo's should be able to keep them.

So long as the animals are kept properly no matter what species of animal it is people should be allowed to keep them is my opinion. Just because a species is dangerous in other people's minds does not give them the right to to take it away. If that were the case Horses and dogs need to be first to go. And that will not ever happen.

[JD@reptiles]

Great post. awesome info. maybe you got to some dip $hits out there, and they will think twice before getting a hot snake.

Cheers

Jordan

[KristenM]

Great Post Scott, I think what you wrote will get a lot of people thinking of whether or not they actually got into hots. Your right its not just a step up in herpering but a completely different level all together. And finding a "good herper" to teach you hots can be a difficult thing!! They want to be able to trust the person they are teaching to know that they are not just going to turn around and do something stupid. Its a very sensitive subject with most herpers, and I personally feel that too many people want to rush into hots too soon. I have heard from many herpers that have worked with hots for a long time that once a friend dies from a snake bite it really affects you!!! Keeping hot snakes is the like keeping a loaded gun in your house.
I was lucky enough to work with hot snakes this summer in the field and get paid to do it by the government. I was also insured incase I got bit or anything else happened. And I was trained in working with tubes, hooks, triagles etc. It was a real eye opener just how damn fast the animals I worked with are and how fast and relaxed you have to be. And sometimes is hard to remain calm when you are trucking through terrain where you can't see the ground but you can hear a rattle going off, very close to you!!! You have to anticipate any move before its actually made, and know the behaviour of the animal to a T!!! Even with the proper equiptment its super tricky!! Bagging the snakes was one of the hardest parts of my job I think, becuase most of the time they dont want in the bag and will jump off the hook! I was working with a relatively small, and not to toxic venom species. Anyways I have gone a bit off topic, but my point was that for those people who think that hots is just a step up you are way off its a whole other world. And you need to get training from someone who has been doing it for a while and that can teach you!!! There is so much to learn before even considering getting into hots!!! I know I'm no where even relatively close to being ready, and I want to take my time, even if that means 10+ years!!! Great Post!!! And Good Topic!
Thanks

[Mustangrde1]

Thanks all.

If anyone wants to reproduce it and hand it out to anyone they know of who wants to get in to hots please feel free.

I did not think when I wrote this reaction would be so good. I wrote it actually in a very upset mind set after listening to two kids at a petshop talk about how they could start off with Ball pythons and then in their words" Just like school get better snakes till they can get poisonous ones". Hearring that kinda made me stop and think hard hence then title K through 12.

[Mustangrde1]

Just thought I would bump it up

[Jungle Jen]

Awesome post.

[SCReptiles]

Good line of thinking. But what about Joe and Barry? They need some sort of pre-school. Perhaps they should work with night crawlers for awhile.

[Mustangrde1]

lol Blind snakes maybe

[JoeBradley]

Good line of thinking. But what about Joe and Barry? They need some sort of pre-school. Perhaps they should work with night crawlers for awhile.

Moderators,
I did nothing to instagate this personal attack upon my snake keeping skills. I move that we ban Chuck (AGAIN).

Chuck,
Last Wednesday night, 9:30, sitting in my house watching animal planet with me, my wife and daughter. Bring back any memories??????

[JoeBradley]

By the way, good post.
I personally cannot teach this view since I went straight from a Bearded Dragon to venomous. BUT I did have a good mentor (Chuck) to teach and encourage safety. Even if he sometimes comes across strong on this site, Chuck knows his stuff and I think Fatboy would agree with me.
I personally think that no one can put a specific time or age or amount of experience that another individual becomes ready for a hot snake. But it is definately not something to do without putting some serious thought into your safety and to the safety of those around you.

[chas*e]

Good post ...but didn't like the "belong in the zoo post" from whomever....Personally, I don't relate non-ven snake handling in my mind with venomous handling at all. I find that a dangerous comparision....completely different animals...no relation..in my mind..(if you know what I mean)

[Mustangrde1]

Chase and that is the problem. They are so diffrent its not funny but many think they can handle it because they can handle a non-ven... Deadly mistake

Did not even notice the Zoo comment till you brought it up.That is one of the most ridiculous ideas I have heard. To say that you might as well say put all animals in a zoo and never let anyone keep them.Oh yes I know the arguement " they are dangerous" And so are Cats, Dogs, Horses. So dont even go there

[jtpRUGGER]

First off, I want to make the comment that, although Alli might not like the idea (maybe she would, heh), Scott should be put in a zoo...he is dangerous. Scott, I'll go with you...if its the zoo I have in mind....you know which one...

Secondly, I thought that was a very well written post, scott, kudos. I can't even begin to think of keeping hots as a step up, or even in the same category as keeping non-vens. The practices I go through with my non-vens are a second nature, every day habit, just like brushing my teeth. The practices I go through keeping hots is more like mountain climbing...before ever even starting to clean a cage, or medicate a snake I have to check ALL safety gear, prepare myself for the task mentally, and make CERTAIN I am in the right mind set to do it. If not, it MUST wait for another day. I can brush my teeth if I'm tired, distracted, or just plain not thinking...I can't climb unless I'm well rested, completely sober, and ready for the task. Like I said, not even the same category. Thanks for a good post, scott.

[Mustangrde1]

bumping

[BoidKeeper]

Great post Scott.
I get asked this question all the time and I can't stand it anymore; Why do you keep snakes? Well I hate myself for asking but I can't help it. Why do you (you being who ever reads this and it aplies to.) keep hots?
I keep snakes for a bunch of reasons, one of which I don't mind admitting to. I often respond with, I keep snakes because you don't. I keep snakes because I know how to and you don't. Keeping snakes makes me different from most people.
Do hot keepers keep for this reason as well? Is it sort of like saying; "Anyone can keep a snake but not everyone can keep a hot."?
Thanks,
Trevor

[Mustangrde1]

Trevor my wife and I keep roughly 200 snakes from little ringnecks to scrub pythons and pigmy rattlers to cobras.

It is not about any superior complex when it comes to the hots its a true love and passion for the animal and its beauty. I also firmly believe that the better we as keepers understand the animals the more we can educate those who are of less experiance. In doing so cause less need for importaton of wild specimens along with learning how to keep them alive better so as people doing research and science with them can keep them healthy and thus hopefully find cures for some of our human illnesses. It is not just the doctors and Scientist that are helping us all but also the dedicated keepers who put their lives and hard earned money on the line.

[cobraman]

Scott, Your signiture looks like your cat walked across your keyboard :)

[Mustangrde1]

Ray it Cherokee for

Great Spirit let us live together with our animal brothers and sisters let our spirits live together with understanding and respect. AMEN

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks for the reply Scott. I'm always pleased to read hot keepers posting warnings. It seems to me hots are become way to easy for just anyone to acquire and that makes me very nervouse. I'm even nervouse that you guys have them. Accidents can happen and if they do then we could lose a fellow herper. We could also be slaped with new laws and legislation that cover all herps not just hots. Here at home in New Brusnwick we live in a very small province, roughly 750,000 people. The residents of NB have very little exposure to herps and even less education on them. I'm concerned that if there was ever an incident the goverment not having the resources available to educate themselves about the different species would probably just ban all reptiles for simplicity sake.
To try and avoid this possibility in future I do my part by conducting educational shows for my schools and building a strong relationship with the local SPCA.
Thanks again for giving your input on the subject.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Mustangrde1]

Trevor

To protect our hobby education is a key but also working the your lawmakers in forming permit systems and possibly training laws is a major step in combating attempts by misinformed and frightened people to ban a hobby that they are afraid of from lack of knowledge.

Florida's Laws are very tough and strict on how one can keep venomous. also permits are needed for keep certain numbers of reptiles and conditions they may be kept in. A proactive solution is to sit down and come up with livable laws for all persons.A good presidant would just to use Floridas laws and permit system. http://floridaconservation.org/permits/JJRep_Frog_Regs.pdf

Also it could be a good idea for you and your local government to contact the Miami Antivenin bank and possibly set up something similar in Canada. Showing the public how responsible reptile keepers actually are will speak volumes. It is very hard to say people that help save lives and have the hindsight to put fourth laws and safety institutes are crazy wierdos.

As for keeping venomous.With proper tools and knowledge of species it's no dangerous then driving a car. Hell it is safer then driving a car. Driving a car you can not control what happens with the other people on the road. I do believe that age requirements really do need to be set for keeping venomous maturity is a very healthy safty protocal.

We know the risk we run in working with these animals but in all honesty any animal is dangerous. People just associate the fact that a venomous snake has venom and that makes them more dangerous then anything else. When in fact if you look at actual statistics from countries with AV and proper medical care available Horses and dogs are more dangerous then venomous snakes as far as fatalities are concerned and also the amount of injuries that occur.

If more states and provinces had programs such as the one in Miami the risk of death from snake bite would be next to nothing.Last time I checked Venom1 had a 100% survival rate to thier credit. That should tell every official around that having a program such as that is well wourth having in their community.

[Dom]

GREAT POSTS..

I am not a hot keeper but I have worked with a douzen of hot snakes in the past year and all I have to say ..

I am not ready and know I will not be for a long time.. there just is too much risks in my oppinion .. I guess I feel I have too much too loose, I feel ppl are just not honest enough with themself.

An other though of mine is that its really easy to put your life in danger but its really unfair to put others.. keeping a snake in an improper cage renders everyone in a km radius at risk.


Lastly .. MY biggest problem is that I have care for hundreds of diferent species of snakes and I find this to work to my disadvantage.. My hands are my main tool .. its automatic for me .. not good for hots.. i almost feel that if I never used my hands b4 it would of been to my advantage..


Just my thoughts on the matter

Dom

[Gregg M]

Bumpin this up...... Great post......

[Mustangrde1]

This hobby was once about guarding secrets and sharing little information with others in it so that if someone had breeding secrets they essentially had a market corner. This was also true in the captive care and maintenance of species for the same reasons. We were all beginners at one time and some of us started out in the time of secrecy and hiding information and knowledge. All we had back then was a few books written by people that looking back now you can see how much was left out of them.

Now we have the Internet, forums, research sites, scientific universities, breeders home pages, etc., etc., etc. All now sharing information giving out advice and tips making recommendations. More and more books with better advice and authors that are more assessable because of e-mail. You have at your finger tips the ability to learn about the country of origin the natural climate and in some cases real time weather of the country.

The first and foremost thoughts should always be on the proper care for the animals be them venomous or nonvenomous. These animals are in reliant on us for all thier life sustaining requirements, they no longer can crawl out ot a basking spot or hunt for prey as they do in the wild. They relie on us to provide these for them and it is our respociblity to provide this for them.

When you get people asking about beginning to start with venomous animals it would be irresponsible of us not to point out species that would best suit a starting level. As I have pointed out before its NOT a graduating experience by any stretch of the imagination. Venomous keeping requires a level of dedication and skill and mental attitude. I could not even in good conscience recommend what I know to be highly aggressive or lethal animals to start with. Nor would it be responsible to advise someone to get an exotic animal who's care is of a higher degree of difficulty. And never refer an arboreal of any type for the beginner.

Looking for good advice the recommendation would be post to forums and ask current keepers its easy to weed out who has experience Vs those who do not by simply reading all the post. At that point the originator of the posting could start asking more direct question and the experienced keepers can help within their knowledge scope. Perhaps we should help people find experienced keepers in the person area so as they can connect and go see what truly is involved in working with venomous reptiles. At that point it should fall then on the persons responsibility to find a trainer and put in the time needed to safely learn how to deal with and work with venomous reptiles.

It should be the goal of any hot keeper to try and give good quality training to anyone interested in learning. This will serve two purposes, First it could and should cut down on the unnecessary bites do to untrained unqualified persons Second it could weed out those people who should not keep venomous at all. This part it really takes a State that requires a permitting process to help with as if you decide in your opinion the person is a Danger you do not sign off on their hours or the letter of recommendation needed for the permit. Now I know some people perceive things different so also this gives you the ability to have another keeper come view the trainee in question if both agree then its time to tell the person that they may need more maturity or whatever. But it can cut down on the bad press of venomous snake bites by hot keepers.

After we have trained a person to the best of our knowledge and ability it becomes a matter of then recommendation of first hot for them to keep in their collection. Lets face it a Native Venomous is a far better choice to start with then an Exotic. Native venomous AV is far more assessable as well as the proper treatment for their bite. Also starting off with something that has a lower mortality rate is a wise idea. In North America Copperheads "Agkistrodon ssp" Along with Pigmy's Rattlers" Sistrurus ssp "are a far better choice then would be the Eastern Diamond Back "C. adamenteus"or the Mojave Rattlesnake "C scutulatus." The Copperheads and Pigmy's bites are painful and can cause damaging effect but the likely hood of death is very low whereas the Eastern or Mojave are definite killers.

After the recommendations are made and hopefully followed the person can work with this species and gain the self awareness and confidence to move on to other species with knowledge and safety and more training. A person who has worked with rattlers does not make them ready for cobras for certain. This is where continuing your training with that species keeper comes in. From my own experience there were animals that I had no clue about I was just lucky enough to have a person that worked with me to take the time to teach me right and properly. Working with an importer I did not have the luxury of picking and choosing what came in. However if I or he was ever uncomfortable with my abilities I just did not work with that species until he instructed me. That goes back to the mental state of mind and maturity that both teacher and student must have. It is an Honesty from within you must posses. I know in medication orally of venomous I was not comfortable with the smaller arboreal and made it clear when I was not and my teacher to his credit did not tease me or make jokes about it but did it himself till I was comfortable restraining the smaller animals. This is something that must be remembered when you train someone "Never make them uncomfortable or do something they do not feel ready to do.

It is very important when training people that proper tools should always be used. Hands on is at times required but knowing when and how is the major key. Hook use is best learned on non-venomous and then put to practical use on less aggressive venomous that ride hooks readily. the same goes for learning how to use tongs or tubes. When it comes to the time to have to work with restraint holds the student as well as the teacher need to be 100% sure of their skill and knowledge. Keep in mind a head restraint for medication or other needed manipulation is not free handling in my opinion its a sometimes needed way to work with an animal. Only should it be done when no other option is available. Also it should be important to teach a person proper packing and unpacking of species. I know of many bites that have occurred during this process. Also how to properly open containers be it a cage or shoe box is another highly important thing a person needs to know. A finger under a shoe box lid or wrapping fingers around sliding glass is just inviting a bite and something most of us take for granted but to a trainee with no experience it can prove deadly.

It should also be a part of ones training to discuss what is and is not proper caging and room safety. Proper caging is very important in we know that screen tops are dangerous there have been instances where snakes have bit and injected venom through a screen cage top from people leaning on or putting their hand on it. With the amount and variety of caging now available these accidents should not occur. If your going to have venomous and want to show them off in nice display cages get ones that are safe on all sides and top and bottom and be certain they are locking and only the keeper himself / herself is the only person with the keys to the cages. Room safety includes knowing where every tool is at all times. Security and integrity of it being escape proof and locking is another issue. The room should have screens over all windows inside and out if possible, screens over all vents both interior and exterior. Doors should be lockable from both sides and have some sort of stop on the bottom to keep snakes in the room in the event of an escape along with having a sign on the door at both the 2 foot level and 6 foot level informing people that their are venomous reptiles inside. I say 2 feet encase of fire and a person is on their knees.

Also it is important that you let the fire department and even law enforcement know of the fact you do keep these animals. I have done this and found they were very receptive to that knowledge and thankful that I took the time and consideration to inform them of this. If for some reason a bite occurs and all you have is a few minutes to get the animal secured and dial 911 having the EMS personal know where you are and what room you may be in is an important life saving tool. Also knowing this in the event of a fire or other disaster lets them know there is a danger and to take needed precautions even if it means staying out completely.

Working with venomous is not a school house mentality or a graduating experience or a keeping up with your friends "The Jones's " syndrome. Keep what your comfortable with and enjoy working with. The joys and pleasures of dealing with some of natures most beautiful and deadly animals can give you hours of relaxation and joy. But it must be tempered with Knowledge and Skill and ongoing training for each species you decide to work with.

[BoidKeeper]

As always well written Scott.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Soul_Reaper]

Originally posted by cobraman
Scott, Your signiture looks like your cat walked across your keyboard :)

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Nice one...

Great article by the way, very well written.

[Simon]

great post!
Gets people to rethink of what troubles they might be getting themselfs into~
A well written one!
Thanks for all the great info!

[liltattyprinces]

WOW, Fantastick post tonnes of great information. I don't keep hots, nor will I ever. I love their beauty and enjoy learning about them. But for me that's as far as it would ever go. I think that what is written here is a must read for anyone into reptiles espically those interested in hots. Excellently written, Thank You for sharing.

Laura-Lee L

[oreganus]

Scott I don't agree with your theory about working up to hots. I have worked with venomous snakes for a long time, and have never really kept non-venomous. I sell a lot of fixed snakes to people that want to get into hots. This seems to be a better way of learning. I do not think that a fixed snake acts any different than a hot one. The ones I fix are just as mean as before the surgery, so that s the best way to learn how to handle hot, not playing with ratsnakes.
K.S.

[oreganus]

Oh yeah...

I just found this forum, and joined mostly to tell you that you are wrong about learning hots from ratsnakes, but the rest of this site looks pretty cool. One of my coworkers at checkers told me about ssnakess.

If anyone is interested in buying some cool fixed snakes, e-mail me and I will give you a good deal. I can save you about $50 compared to what Ritchie Rich charges (he trained me how to do it).
thanx
Kevin Smith

[oreganus]

Or just call me at (503) 492-1568

[BoidKeeper]

"Fixed " implies they were once broken. There is nothing broken about a hot, that's their nature. If you can't keep em the way nature designed them then I say don't keep em. What you're doing is cruel and unatural. Animals are suffering at your hands just so someone can keep the snake they want with out having to be responsible. IMHO
I'm affraid you will not find a very warm welcome here. Venomoid keepers and those that mutalate them are not generally well received by this group.
It will however be interesting to here the perspective of a person who not only keeps voids but performs the procedure on them.
No matter how long your stay, welcome,
Trevor

[oreganus]

No, youre wrong. people like me beacuse I make something that is deadly safe to handle. And I trained under Ritchy Ritch, and he is one of the best. It sounds like you are a teensy weensy jealus, but need to be, you too can learn how to make these snakes better, and make the big bucks. I can almost afford to quit my part time job at nights because of the money I make cuttin (as we call it in the trade).

Thanks for the welcome.
Kevin Smith

[Crotalus75]

I find that sort of garbage disgusting. It's always all about the money with venomoid "surgeons" and dealers. And for the customers it's all about cutting corners and getting their hands on "bad A$$" animals that they have no idea how to handle or take care of. Who would be jealous of that? I'm just thankful that I have the mental capacity (and character) to understand why venomoid butchery is so wrong for the animals and the hot community as a whole. Venomoid keepers and "surgeons" don't get much respect from those who have a true love and respect for these animals.

I completely disagree with your definition for "hot" snake on your website. Hot is a slang term for a venomous animal especially venomous snakes. Once a snake has been butchered it is NO LONGER a venomous animal. All you have left is an abused shell of what was formerly a venomous snake.


TO THOSE CONSIDERING THE PURCHASE OF A VENOMOID:

I sincerely hope that those who are thinking about getting one of these sad creatures will reconsider.

Please learn to handle these animals the RIGHT way. There are plenty of people who are willing to mentor those who wish to learn to keep these beautiful and interesting animals.

The practice of venomoid "surgery" is unnecessary torture for these animals and a major liability to the venomous snake keeping community that values it's right to keep these animals.

If you want to learn to keep venomous snakes then please make a STAND WITH these animals and the hot community NOT AGAINST THEM.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

No, youre wrong. people like me beacuse I make something that is deadly safe to handle. And I trained under Ritchy Ritch, and he is one of the best. It sounds like you are a teensy weensy jealus, but need to be, you too can learn how to make these snakes better, and make the big bucks. I can almost afford to quit my part time job at nights because of the money I make cuttin (as we call it in the trade).

IMO this is a far fetched opinion. It is just that some find it "better" to work with hots this way. It is your opinion, not a fact. I do not think I could persuade you to think otherwise, but the thought of making something better by manipulating it in this fashion is a bit ridiculous. This procedure also pushes a lot of disrespect into the hobby, even more so for the all-mighty buck. If your in it for the cash, your in it for the wrong reason.

Oh yeah.......I just found this forum, and joined mostly to tell you that you are wrong about learning hots from ratsnakes,

Again, do you believe one could learn any better from venomous snakes that have been manipulated, over ratsnakes ( or any other feasible species)? Could a boxer learn to fight by simply dancing around a heavy bag and not taking time sparring with something that punches back??? Can you learn to drive a racecar by playing a few hours of Gran Turismo on your Playstation??? Your point is simply pointless here.

A person would not be able to experience the respect it takes to care for a venomous creature if it were manipulated so. Backwards thinking. To me it creates a lack of laziness and disrespect for the animal and its care. A keeper of a ratsnake knows it is not venomous (much like a 'void'). The idea here is to create a 'learning standard' with the non-venomous species. For one, it is healthy with all parts included. It will not kill or injure during the learning procedure. When accidents do happen, there is nothing serious that will occur, and the 'learner' knows that the situation would have been far worse if it had been an actual venomous snake. That is the point.

Pushing venomoids is a very touchy subject. The fact of the matter still remains that it is a very disgusting procedure, with a large amount of animals going to the wayside so that just a slight few will survive...all just to make a few bucks. Anyone with a working and logical mind knows that venomoids are simply a scrupulous excuse as a financial generator. Venomoids, IMO, are just there to promote the sale of a 'cool' snake, and allowing folks not to give time to learn or respect the species they desire. This by far is not a highly respected way of adding respect to the all ready tainted look at herpetoculture. It is simply a part of the trade that allows for unintelligent and undesirable keepers to be allowed to care for a captive animal without allowing that person to fully recognize the truths and natural beauty of the creatures they keep.

Captive collecting of venomous creatures is not for the average person. Allowing venomoids into the playing field weakens the ability for others to trully understand what it takes to respect, learn about and simply care for them. Say and argue what you want, but it is a loss. It is like telling the great minds of the world to stop thinking simply because of the invention of the calculator.

[Brodie]

If you ask me. Since we take these animals out of the wild and put them in a cage we owe it to them to keep them as close to natural as we can, none of this ^&$* with fixing hots, it is just completely wrong!!!!!!!

[BoidKeeper]

and make the big bucks
That's terrible. You put finacial gain a head of the life of the animals. Keeping animals is not about the money for me. I have two degrees and a career. I don't need to sell animals to get by.
Trevor

[Mustangrde1]

Ladies and Gentlemen. Argueing the point with a person of no moral or ethical or LEGAL since will do nothing but detract from what this thread. However you wish to do something about it the joyful thing is Kevin who is NOT a Licensed Vet just finally admitted to doing the surgery himself wich is a Violation of Oregon Laws. My suggestion is instead of lashing it out and taking away from a good thread to fight a person who has such low regaurd for animals and the laws is to Forward this on to the.Oregon DNR and allow them to deal with him.

TITLE 16. CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 167. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, DECENCY AND ANIMALS

167.310. Definitions for ORS 167.310 to 167.350.
As used in ORS 167.310 to 167.350:

(1) "Animal" means any nonhuman mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian or fish.

(2) "Good animal husbandry" includes, but is not limited to, the dehorning of cattle, the docking of horses, sheep or swine, and the castration or neutering of livestock, according to accepted practices of veterinary medicine or animal husbandry.

(3) "Livestock" has the meaning provided in ORS 609.010.

(4) "Pet or domestic animal" means any animal that is owned or possessed by a person, other than livestock or poultry.

(5) "Physical injury" has the meaning provided in ORS 161.015.

(6) "Possess" has the meaning provided in ORS 161.015.

(7) "Serious physical injury" has the meaning provided in ORS 161.015.

(8) As used in ORS 167.325 and 167.330, "Minimum care" means care sufficient to preserve the health and well-being of an animal and, except for emergencies or circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the owner, includes, but is not limited to, the following requirements:

(a) Food of sufficient quantity and quality to allow for normal growth or maintenance of body weight.

(b) Open or adequate access to potable water in sufficient quantity to satisfy the animal's needs. Snow or ice is not an adequate water source.

(c) In the case of pet or domestic animals, access to a barn, dog house or other enclosed structure sufficient to protect the animal from wind, rain, snow or sun and which has adequate bedding to protect against cold and dampness.

(d) Veterinary care deemed necessary by a reasonably prudent person to relieve distress from injury, neglect or disease.

(e) Pet or domestic animals shall not be confined to an area without adequate space for exercise necessary for the health of the animal or which does not allow access to a dry place for the animal to rest. The air temperature in a confinement area must be suitable for the animal involved. Confinement areas must be kept reasonably clean and free from excess waste or other contaminants which could affect the animal's health.


"""Please Note that it INCLUDED REPTILES.""""

It is interesting that Oregon where this particualr threads orgins are from states the following under. ORS161.015 PAY VERY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO # 7 & 8

161.015 General definitions. As used in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971, and ORS 166.635, unless the context requires otherwise:

(1) "Dangerous weapon" means any weapon, device, instrument, material or substance which under the circumstances in which it is used, attempted to be used or threatened to be used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury.

(2) "Deadly weapon" means any instrument, article or substance specifically designed for and presently capable of causing death or serious physical injury.

(3) "Deadly physical force" means physical force that under the circumstances in which it is used is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury.

(4) "Peace officer" means a sheriff, constable, marshal, municipal police officer, member of the Oregon State Police, investigator of the Criminal Justice Division of the Department of Justice or investigator of a district attorney’s office and such other persons as may be designated by law.

(5) "Person" means a human being and, where appropriate, a public or private corporation, an unincorporated association, a partnership, a government or a governmental instrumentality.

(6) "Physical force" includes, but is not limited to, the use of an electrical stun gun, tear gas or mace.

(7) "Physical injury" means impairment of physical condition or substantial pain.

(8) "Serious physical injury" means physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.

(9) "Possess" means to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over property.

(10) "Public place" means a place to which the general public has access and includes, but is not limited to, hallways, lobbies and other parts of apartment houses and hotels not constituting rooms or apartments designed for actual residence, and highways, streets, schools, places of amusement, parks, playgrounds and premises used in connection with public passenger transportation. [1971 c.743 §3; 1973 c.139 §1; 1979 c.656 §3; 1991 c.67 §33; 1993 c.625 §4; 1995 c.651 §5]


""The surgery does disfigure the animals and certainly does impair a funtion of a bodily organ.""

Chapter 686 — Veterinarians; Veterinary Technicians


2001 EDITION

GENERAL PROVISIONS

686.010 Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context requires otherwise:

(1) "Animal medical problem" means any wound, injury, disease, discomfort, abnormality, deformity or defect of an animal.

(2) "Board" means the Oregon State Veterinary Medical Examining Board.

(3) "Veterinary college, or veterinary department of a university or college, of good standing and repute," means any veterinary college or department of a university or college, legally organized, which is approved and placed on the accredited list by the board, but in any event the accreditation requirements of the board shall be no more restrictive than the accreditation standards of the American Veterinary Medical Association. [Amended by 1967 c.334 §1; 1975 c.619 §1; 1987 c.651 §1]

686.020 License required to practice veterinary medicine; title and abbreviations usable by licensees. Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, no person shall:

(1) Practice veterinary medicine, surgery or dentistry, in this state unless the person holds a valid license issued by the Oregon State Veterinary Medical Examining Board and the license is not expired, revoked or suspended at the time of practice.

(2) Affix or append any letters to the name of the person, indicating a degree in medicine, such as V.S., V.D., D.V.S., M.D.C., D.M.C., D.V.M., or use the word doctor, veterinary, veterinarian, professor, animal doctor, animal surgeon, or any abbreviation or combination thereof of similar import in connection with the name of the person, or any trade name with which the person is interested, in the conduct of any occupation or profession pertaining to the diagnosis or treatment of animal diseases or conditions mentioned in this chapter, unless such person is legally entitled to use such designation. [Amended by 1987 c.651 §2]

686.030 Acts constituting the practice of veterinary medicine. A person practices veterinary medicine, surgery or dentistry when the person does any of the following in this state:

(1) Diagnoses, treats or prognosticates an animal medical problem.

(2) Prescribes or administers a drug, medicine or treatment for the prevention, cure, amelioration, correction or modification of an animal problem or for euthanasia.

(3) Induces anesthesia in an animal.

(4) Performs a surgical or dental operation or procedure upon an animal.

(5) Performs an embryo transfer or pregnancy, sterility or fertility evaluation.

(6) Gives an instruction or demonstration regarding the acts described in this section, except as an agent or employee of this state or of the federal government.

(7) Advertises or represents in any manner, publicly or privately, that the person is willing to do any of the acts described in this section. [Amended by 1987 c.651 §2a]

And the wonderful quote of confirmation He does preform the surgery himself and unless he is licensed is a CRIME ...

No, youre wrong. people like me beacuse I make something that is deadly safe to handle. And I trained under Ritchy Ritch, and he is one of the best. It sounds like you are a teensy weensy jealus, but need to be, you too can learn how to make these snakes better, and make the big bucks. I can almost afford to quit my part time job at nights because of the money I make cuttin (as we call it in the trade).

Thanks for the welcome.
Kevin Smith

Thank you for your own words in type. This has been forwarded to Oregons DNR and veterinary licensing Board.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/
http://www.ovmeb.state.or.us/

[BoidKeeper]

Can I hear a hell ya!
Good on ya Scott.
Cheers,
Trevor

[dwedeking]

I am curious if the issue is with illegal operations performed by back yard wannabes and operations performed by licensed professional doctors or is it just the operation itself?

As humans we have performed many operations on ourselves to change what nature has given us (from tattoos and piercings to body altering cosmetic surgery) and see no issue with operations of this nature as long as they are performed in a humane, legal fashion.

Is there a side-effect to the snake that is detremintal to it's health due to these surgeries (providing they are done properly)? Does the snake go to sleep with the glands and wakes up without the glands with no ill effects? What are the success rates when done by a professional doctor?

I don't see an issue provided there are not pain/ill side effect issues and a success rate in the high 90's%.

I'd like to note that I don't own either venemoids or venemous sankes just interested in the debate.

[Mustangrde1]

We all see and hear the stories from other countries where animals are slaughtered for their internal organs or skins. These animals in some cases are slaughter for the mythological belief that their organs are an aphrodisiac or medical treatment for any number of diseases. Medical Science has proven time after time this to be false yet it still occurs. When we here of this it is upsetting and disheartening for us.
_
It is very difficult for some of these countries to enforce laws regarding these practices yet they try to with the little resources available. There should be however no excuse in large countries with better resources to enforce cruelty laws and prosecute person in violation of laws regarding cruelty or neglect or practicing surgery without a license on animals which can and does cause loss of life and undo suffering.
_
In The United States alone there are 17 states that have enacted "PET LEMON LAWS" to protect buyers from receiving animals in poor shape or health.

Arizona - Title 44, Chapter 11, Article 17 of the Arizona Revised Statutes "Pet Dealers" section. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 15 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 60 days.

Arkansas - Section 4-97-105 of the Arkansas Code. Applies to dogs and cats only. Health problems are covered for 10 days.

California - HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE, SECTION 122045-122222. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 15 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year. This lemon law is for dogs and cats only.

Connecticut - Section 22-344b of the CT Code. Dogs and cats are covered for health problems for 15 days. Reimbursements for veterinary bills cannot exceed two hundred dollars.

Delaware - Section 4005 of the DE Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 20 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 2 years. The animal can be either returned for a full refund of the purchase price, exchanged, or retained. Reimbursement for reasonable veterinary fees cannot exceed the original purchase price of the animal. Parasites are covered if they make the animal clinically ill.

Florida - Florida State Statute 828. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Maine - Title 7, Part 9, Chapter 745: SALE OF DOGS AND CATS. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 10 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Massachusetts - 330 CMR 12.05. Health problems in dogs and cats are covered for 14 days. Requires a refund or a replacement animal -- no veterinary bill reimbursement.

Minnesota - Section 325F.791 of the MN Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 10 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year. This lemon law is for dogs and cats only.

New Hampshire - Section 437.13 of the NH Code. Refunds or substitutions for up to 14 days; does not cover vet bills. Includes dogs, cats, and ferrets.

New Jersey - NJ Statute 56:8-93. Contagious or infectious diseases are covered for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered up to 6 months. The consumer has the right to return the dog or cat and receive a full refund or replacement plus reimbursement of veterinary fees; or retain the dog or cat and receive reimbursement of veterinary fees plus the cost of future veterinary fees.

New York - Article 35-D Section 753 of the General Business Law. Health conditions in dogs and cats are covered for 14 days.

Nevada - Section 574.490 of the Nevada Code. Covers health problems for up to 10 days. Provides refund of purchase price, replacement of equal value, or reimbursement of vet bills, in an amount not to exceed the purchase price of the pet.

Pennsylvania - Contagious or Infectious Diseases are covered: 10 days; Congenital or Hereditary Defects: 30 days

South Carolina - Section 47-13-160 of the SC Code. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 14 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 6 months. Pet store liability for veterinary fees must not exceed fifty percent of the purchase price, including sales tax, of the animal.

Vermont - 20V.S.A. sec. 4302. Covers contagious or infectious diseases for 7 days; congenital or hereditary defects are covered for up to 1 year.

Virginia - 3.1-796.80. Health problems are covered for 10 days. Must return the pet to receive refund or exchange.

Though many of these States specifically cover dogs and cats the same laws can be argued for other pets as well. All 50 States and The Federal Government have Laws again pertaining to Cruelty and neglect of animals and conditions for Surgery and Captive living requirements.

http://www.animal-law.org/statutes/index.html_Great State by state brief

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/legislat/awicregs.htm_ Federal laws

This being said it shows that we as a civilized society appall such violations to animals. So when I here the word Venomoid which is a SURGICALLY altered animal for no other reason then profit under the assumption it will be safe to handle it appalls me. The persons performing this alteration are for the most part NOT licensed and therefore violating laws regarding who/whom may perform surgeries. Without proper facilities and narcotics this can and does cause undo fatalities and stress upon animals and is a crime under numerous state laws. Again these people if not licensed are also using narcotics that without the licensing are illegal to own posses and administer.

_I have said that there are only two reasons that I could ever condone these animals and that is in education and research use. However I place it under the stipulations that. "A" The person doing such research or education be licensed for these practices and that they must do a required number of educational demonstrations per year so as to keep persons from acquiring said permit/license just to own a venomoid. " B " That the surgery be performed by a Licensed Veterinary doctor only and only after proof and permits furnished to the Veterinary clinic have been issued by the party wishing to have this surgery performed. I even had a venomoid at one time and was going to use it for educational lectures but with time in my life being what it is I could not. I therefore allowed the animal to be sent on to someone that could. After much research from that time I have learned just how horrible this procedure is and could never again own one as I feel it supports the slaughter of numerous animals for no reason. Proper handling of the real animals or display behind locked cages and allowing an audience to view them via large screen TV during a lecture and then close inspection from in front of glass is far safer and better for the animals.

When we as a society see person doing things we feel are Morally and Ethically and Legally wrong we have the right and responsibility to try and change laws or have laws enforced. Sitting back with no opinion or stance on a subject that is known to cause fatalities and stress for no reason other then profit makes those who stand by and do nothing just as guilty as those who are causing the deaths and stress.

The arguments the people performing these alterations range from they are perfect for training for venomous to they are safer pets. This in itself shows they are purely looking for the all mighty dollar and sell. There is no substitute for proper training with the real animals under supervised instruction from seasoned keepers with knowledge of the animals a person wishes to work with or own in the future.

With mortality rates as high as 90% in some verified cases this shows just how deadly these alteration for profit are to the animals the procedure is performed on. This is part of the reason behind laws to allow for only "trained licensed veterinary doctors to perform a surgery." The Average person possibly could perform this surgery but would have a high mortality rate. The care needed for Pre-op, surgery and post operative care is best left to professionals not back yard butchers. As well as guidelines of established medical laws regarding the surgical standards.

Where we as Keepers fit in is when we are aware of people committing such acts it is our Moral and Ethical along with Legal responsibility to inform the local authorities of their actions and DEMAND action be taken against these people.

Demanding action is a must sitting back passively will do nothing but condone these peoples actions.

Morally and Ethically it is our Duty to inform other Members of the Herp community to these people and their actions. Boycotts against their business and business that do business with these people can in the end stop the needless deaths of animals and their pain and suffering.

We are not 3rd world countries and we do have laws and morals as I provided above. Now it is up to you and I to make certain that when these people who are performing the alterations without the proper legal training as prescribed by law are held accountable.
_

[herpetological]

Well, well, well... The issue rears it's ugly head again. You have to ask your self.... How and why did you get into herps to begin with? Was it the facination and appreciation or was it to see how much money you could make? When a specimen gets sick do you weigh the costs of how much it costs to treat the specimen or do you do everything you can to save it's life? Answer those questions... It will tell you which side your on. Should you cut into a living being and change it's very nature just so you can say it's safe. Is it still the same animal. Do you feel the need to mutilate a creature, put it through the obvious pain and stress because the keeper is either not willing to learn how to handle venomous or doesn't care. I'll say again, I believe the only reason a creature should go under the knife is to save it's life. Yes, there are a few humans for which I'd have to retract that.Humans have the unique ability to communicate on several levels. They are self aware and can make their own decisions. If they want tatoo's, piercings or to modify parts of their own bodies, so be it. How can we as "human beings" be so uncaring about life that we feel the need to modify them for our own needs! Even as a keeper of herps for over 25 years I can say that snakes seem to have a lesser degree of intelligence than other herps. A snake can't scream, it can't say stop, it can only try to defend itself . Enough of that issue...Lol's Starting to get into ethics, morals, etc. The bottom line is that these animals are unique because they ARE HOT! That is where the facination lies. If we are such intelligent beings we would take the time to learn about them. We would try to change what they are?Were not tlking about genetics here. Were not trying to change a species for it's survival. Remember the quote, "Nature finds a way". They will produce venomous babies! What does the keeper of venomoids do at that point?
Read Scott's letter. It does make sense. Yes, you could argue the point of what to(for lack of better terms) practice with. Nothing takes the place of experience. If anyone is in Fl. i'm sure Scott, Ray or I would be happy to set down and discuss venomous with you. First we will try to discourage it. Second, we'll show you some of the bite cases and what can happen. Next, we'll show you how to work with the nt so "hot" venomous species. Then after considerable time we'd let you do the cage cleaning. It all comes down to a continued respect of what they are capable of! Even after all of this we would continue to point out when you make mistakes or when mistakes could have happened! We still do this to each other. Another issue...You are a sucessful venomous keeper when you can brag about how few bites you have had or you can point out to yourself.."Man that was stupid I could have been bit!" I know this sounds like i'm discouraging keeping of venomous. Well.. I am! However, if you have the correct background, experience and the ability to recognize when you are falling into bad habits then do so. Make sure it's for the right reasons and BE RESPONSIBLE!

[dwedeking]

Ray,

People will trim an animals claws or in the case of domestic cats have them declawed. Is this on the same level as venemoids then?

I am curious to the toll on the snake when the operation is done in proper conditions by properly trained professionals. I am asking this because I am unfamiliar with the process and want facts based upon logic.

In the chameleon world there are some that say you can't keep them in captivity, they are too hard, only the special few can. I strongly disagree with that elitest attitude.

Again, only here for the debate as I know my limitations and would prefer to make mistakes with animals that allow me to live afterwards :)

[Crotalus75]

FANTASTIC posts Mustangrde1! It's good to see other people that actually have a love and respect for these animals and stand up for what's right for the animals and the hot community.

[real "oreganus"]

Okay, I can see the moderator didn't want me to make threats towards the cowards that posted under my name. These idiots are the same ones that have created havoc on fauna. I did not write that post and have not responded or even posted on this board, EXCEPT FOR NOW. I would like to know how I posted and replied to everyone on this board so many times when my computer has been down for that last two days??? I suppose that is how brainless cowards can prove their points, use someone else's name to post whatever they can actually have an intelligent response to, what? is a two sided argument too much for them?
THE REAL OREGANUS

[real "oreganus"]

PS. MR MODERATOR.....

Have you examined the posts and this post to see if they came from the same person? It would only be fair to let everyone know.
Thanks
Kevin
(The real oreganus)

[herpetological]

Daniel, if for any reason my post came off as an "elitest attitude" it was not meant that way. I was simply saying that many people get into the "hots" for the wrong reasons. By no means do I think that I'm better than anyone else. However, the reasons I try to discourage it are many. I've had many people ask to volunteer with our collection. I politely refuse some once I get to know them. A good example of someone who should is a young man that helps us often. He was very interested in "hots". What gave me respect for him was the day he told me he did not want to work with the larger pit vipers. This was because he was uncomfortable with them and wasn't ready. Most people would not have admitted that and simply would have gone through with it..uncomfortable or not! (Peer pressure Etc.) I have no problem working with him or training him for this very reason. I do not have a problem with anyone working with any animals no matter how difficult or dangerous they are. It is always best to make sure you have a good grasp on what the needs of the animal are and in the case of dangerous species have a plan for accidents.

[Campbellvenomou]

Problem is that most adendectomies are performed in the home of individuals who are not licensed veterinarians. These individuals buy w/c animals and lose many, much more than the 10% you would feel comfortable with....but the selling of one animal that pulls through is worth the effort to them.
The problem is that there is no hard studies being done on this practice, nor are there published numbers on the ammount of indviduals out there doing it..sadly as long as there is a financial motive there will be those whose only pursuit in life is the dollar attempting this method. Very few vets out there perform adendectomies..and I have not been able to find any published data on their numbers or reasons either. The practice of people electing non-essential surgery is moot, people are responsible for their animals, the animals do not elect to have non-essential, potentially lethal, and disfiguring surgeries for fashion, obesity, or any other reason.

[dwedeking]

Ray,

I did not mean to imply that you were taking the elitest route, but rather looking for information as to the "why"s (always hated being told "because I said" :) ).

Campbellvenomou,

I agree 100% that the backyard hacks are a blight. Thank you for providing information (or the fact that it is lacking) on legitimate vet practices in this field.

[herpetological]

It would be interesting to get the actual figures on: 1) Number of "legitimate" surgeries conducted by qualified vets. 2) Percentage of deaths post surgery for the above sugery. then compare these to the "private" sector surgeries and survival rates. The only problem is will we even get a response from the private sector and will the facts be true? I know that years ago when doctor Fry conducted surgeries he would refuse the surgery unless the specimen was 100% healthy and free of parasites. Body weight had to be optimal as well! This was in order to insure survival after surgery. Especially since the specimen would not feed for some time post-op.

[oreganus]

I AM THE REAL KEVIN SMITH (But not my real name). I have nothing to be ashamed of, so whoever is impersonating me can go away! Ken, if that is you loged in as "real oreganus" I appreciate your efforts, but I am not affraid to stand up for what I feel is right. I know I called you about this, but forget what we discussed. I can handle this myself.

It is funny that you all jump on me just because I don't agree with you or scott. When Richard Ritchie (Ritchie Rich is just his nick name) was teaching me how to do the surgery, he told me that I would get a lot of people turn against me for it. I am good at what I do, and do not need to be a vet to do it. Most vets I spoke to will not do the surgery because they don't like snakes. I make hot snakes safe, so whats wrong with that? Scott can post all the laws he wants, but they can't do anything to me because I am not doing anything wrong. This is a free country last time I looked. My percentage of mortality is lower than you think. I only loose about 30 out of 100, and that is only because I cant get any good antibiotics. And whoever copied my posts and pasted them on the BOI is a jerk, and imature trouble maker.

Scott can get everyone to call anyone they want here, but I am not breaking the law. People have as much right to have venomoids as they do to have hots. I don't mess with you for what you do for a living.

Herpetological, I tube feed my snakes afer the surgery, so I don't have to wait until they are up to weight before surgery. Time is money.

The REAL Kevin

[C.m.pyrrhus]

??????

[Crotalus75]

"Time is money"

Again, the truth comes straight from the horses mouth so to speak. MONEY. The almighty dollar is what venomoids are all about (at the expense of the animals and the community of people who truly love these animals). Some people just don't care about right and wrong as long as they can make a quick sleazy buck

"I only loose (sic) about 30 out of 100, and that is only because I cant get any good antibiotics."

Hell, If you are telling the truth (why should we believe you are after your posting track record) thats still 3 out of 10 that DIE at your hands. This does not count all of the mortalities that happen days, weeks or months after you sell these mutilated animals to an unsuspecting amatuer customer.

You cant get "good" antibiotics because you are a back alley butcher without a vets license. If you can't get proper antibiotics to perform a SURGICAL procedure then common sense should dictate that you shouldn't be doing it.


"I AM THE REAL KEVIN SMITH (But not my real name). I have nothing to be ashamed of"

If you have nothing to be ashamed of then why post under a false name.

[Mustangrde1]

The ugly beast is raising its mutilated head on more and more websites. I had an interesting talk with an attourney friend of mine today who is also a hot keeper and even more hateful of voids then myself.

He had one very interesting comment. That those allowing or selling animals that were in there own right created in violation of a law are in also in violation of a law for contributing to this practice if they have knowledge the animals were operated on illegally. He went on to say though it is difficult to prove this on the sellers end however He believed that in the event of a hot bite and the person bit wished to make it a case he / she possibly could have a good leg to stand on.

Granted he pointed out till it occured its specualtion of law but one that could involve everyone from the person who performed the alteration to the website/magazine that offered the animals to the actual seller.

In the sue happy world I would not take the risk myself.

[cobraman]

Kevin (or whoever)
I agreed to back off in the BOI, and I hope to not get going on this site. I sincerely hope that it truely is not you that would make such stupid posts about venomoids. After the battles you went through on the BOI, I tend to believe that YOU did not really make these silly posts. Knowing what I now know about the laws in your state about venomoids, I can understand why you declined to directly state that you perform the surgeries yourself, and for that same reason, I would like to think that you would not put yourself out like this on sSnakess forums. We can agree to disagree, and we can do it nicely.
Peace, Ray Hunter (my real name)

[jay72]

Is this the guy without the scale?


Sloane Russeck

[cobraman]

The very same

[Mustangrde1]

No Scale but sure can give CPR . Then again I question if its CPR or trying to inflate a ballon.

[cobraman]

Scott, I just got this e-mail from Hank Molt. It is very well written, so I thought I would share it on this site (I know that Hank would not object)
Ray



2 January 2004 9:54 pm

TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE RESPONDED TO THE KINGSNAKE FORUM ON GETTING RID OF "VENOMOIDS" I THANK YOU VERY MUCH

PLEASE READ MY ARTICLE BELOW

WE HAVE A REAL CHANCE TO RID OURSELVES OF THIS DISGUSTING NUISANCE AT THIS TIME

I WILL DO ALL IN MY POWER TO GET US SEPARATE FROM THEM

I AM WILLING TO FIGHT THE FIGHT

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, THANKS HANK MOLT



NO VENOMOIDS HERE

Why my vociferous and ultra aggressive campaign against "venomoid" and, in my opinion, horribly mutilated reptiles ?

First and foremost, so-called "venomoid" reptiles are the MOST DANGEROUS reptiles in herpetoculture today: they pose the greatest risk to those of us involved in serious venomous herpetoculture and can easily have a negative spill over effect on all of herpetoculture in general.

Let's look at the facts. The acquisition of a "venomoid" snake is pretty much an "entry level" phenomena. It is most often a young and totally inexperienced person who wants to be able to "handle" and "show off" his new snake. At the shows where some vendors sell these disfigured creatures, the first question I overhear from a prospective purchaser is, "can I handle it ?" The question begs the obvious answer. "Of course you can handle it Dude" replies the vendor, quickly sizing up his inexperienced customer and salivating about the imminent prospect of procuring about 3 times what a normal non "venomoid" snake of the same species would fetch. I have actually seen a vendor then snatch a "venomoid" 30 inch Green Mamba from it's tiny plastic salad container (despite the crowd of people pressed up against his table) and with ridiculous bravado, place the exhausted serpent around his neck. Often the black stitch threads are still dangling from the disfigured head. Pretty impressive. And yes, there are these road kill guys who purchase this trash. Can you imagine spending $400. for a skinny 30 inch Green Mamba with threads protruding from its caved-in head. It just looks like some worn out Green Vine Snake. And, most important, it is really no longer a real Mamba: it is just a half-snake that has had some grotesque procedures done on it and then used to procure money from ignorant collectors better off not in herpetoculture. So, the initial attraction is pretty obvious: profit seeker at all costs meets wanna be macho man, and there you have the perfect recipe for trouble.

But why are "venomoid" snakes really dangerous?

First of all, "venomoid" snakes can breed and produce fully lethal offspring. People who obtain venomoid snakes are often tempted to keep them in a state or jurisdiction which prohibits venomous snakes by species. There are no provisions for the keeping of "venomoid" = (mechanically altered) venomous species in any of those jurisdictions. The owners of these grotesque anomalies somehow justify their flaunting of the law as acceptable since their snake is not "technically" venomous. This illegal behavior, when discovered and prosecuted, only results in more and more excessively restrictive laws against the entire herp community.

Secondly, there is always the chance of an imperfect procedure in rendering the snake "harmless" and with so many more people attempting this all the time, it is probably only a matter of time until there is a partial "venomoid" out there. Also, it would be conceivable for someone in desperate financial straits to sell or fraudulently represent a snake as venomoid when in fact it is not. Either of the above scenarios could produce tragic consequences to the parties involved. "Venomoids" appeal mostly to the young and very inexperienced, often first time collectors. These are the people most likely to attempt their own crude procedures at rendering a specimen "venomoid" that would result in the death of the snake, or even worse, the incomplete removal of all the venom delivering apparatus, leaving the snake still potentially lethal.

And third, and to me the most serious problem with "venomoid" snakes, is the very real possibility of these reptiles being taken out into the public. It would be pretty tempting for an irresponsible person, wanting to up stage his buddy who took his Albino Python to the Mall, to take his "venomoid" 5 foot Albino Cobra to the park, mall, school or a party to impress his friends. The situation could quickly deteriorate into a confrontation with authorities and another snake incident makes the headlines. The town council won't care if the snake is "venomiod." It is a Cobra, it is illegal to possess, was in public and scared people. It doesn't take rocket science to see where this can lead: more and more prohibitions against all reptiles.

And for what? A venomoid snake is no longer venomous. Why the attraction? It is just a snake and a pretty pathetic one at that. What can possibly be the motivation to own such an expensive mutilated creature. If your needs are that macho, get a big Burmese Python or Water Monitor to impress your friends.

Some very lame excuses. I have had very few responses to this article from pro-venomoid collectors ( hopefully it is because there are so few of them - even one is too many ) but one thread runs common in their defense of venomoids and is as follows. They all have claimed that working with a venomoid snake will give them experience for the time when they graduate to keeping a real venomous snake. Bullshit. The fatal flaw in this jaundiced reasoning is that there is no "What if." Without "what if" you cannot gain any experience. The definition of experience (according to Hank Molt) is: what you get when you don't get what you want. Consider the following hypothetical situation. If a person is working with a venomoid 7 foot Black Mamba and for some reason that snake gets an opportunity to escape or get into a highly compromised situation the handler can, at last resort grab the snake with his hand to prevent the escape. With a real Mamba no such opportunity presents: you have to have an alternate plan. Why: because what if it bit you? The venomoid dude is safe because there is no what if. If he makes a mistake it is always reversible. There is no consequence. How can you gain any experience when you can always resort to a practice that could be fatal in a situation with the real snake? Also there is much more to this than many people can readily see. 30 years ago Joe Laszlo and I would get freshly imported wild caught Black Mambas, Boomslangs, Puff Adders, King Cobras and Spitting Cobras straight in from the bush. These creatures were decidedly different from most of today's available venomous snakes which are captive produced animals. Captive produced reptiles are a very good thing: but the point is that we had to learn to deal with these snakes as highly aggressive wild caught adults without the luxury of all of today's sophisticated hooks, baggers, etc. All we had were a pair of Pilstrom Tongs (which were only there as a last resort) as we new these could easily damage a wildly thrashing snake. We had to make our own hooks and we had to get these snakes into garbage cans to soak them; and to remove ticks we invented tubes, etc. In short, we found ways by long hours and hard work to safely handle these wonderful creatures and to not get bitten and to not harm the reptiles. To say that you can gain any real experience from working with venomoid snakes is total hogwash. It would be like saying you could learn to drive an Indy race car by playing video race car driving DVDs on your home computer. Absolute Total Bullshit!!

A second pathetic claim I hear is that the technology now exists to safely remove the venom apparatus in sterile surroundings and is often accomplished by a license vet. A tidy hygienic procedure. What they are really saying is that they have found a more efficient way to do a bad thing. Hitler invented concentration camps to exterminate millions of people. It was very efficient. Sterile procedures? Kiss my ***!!

As I see this debate play out on the forums I can only conclude that these die-hard venomoid collectors can never be converted. Stop trying. They are afraid of venomous snakes and we should not waste our time on these people any longer. All we can do is to persistently petition the host of the websites to remove them from our presence. We deal in venomous snakes and they deal in venomoids: it is as different as prime steak and used condoms. We must insist on separate representation. Wouldn't it be cool to see the venomoid classifieds with all 5 or 6 of the big time guys advertising their damaged goods. Who knows, maybe someday they will have their own Expo - if they can find a facility large enough to accommodate all the thousands of reptile enthusiasts who would flock from far and near to gaze upon their unfortunate mutilated creatures. Seriously, let's really make a concerted effort to rid these people from our midst.

Fortunately only a few reptile dealers still sell "venomoid" snakes. At the last few shows I have attended 3 major dealers have advised me that they have quit selling them all together. And at every show I attend by far the majority of serious venomous collectors express their total outrage against "venomoids".

I have been in the reptile business for more than 38 years and it is inconceivable to me how anyone could even think of performing such a horrific procedure on such magnificent creatures. For the most part I deal with very serious collectors, people who breed Bushmasters, Rattlesnakes, rare Tree Vipers, Helodermas and other exquisite venomous reptiles. To a person, these serious collectors disdain the "venomoid" sector and hold them in total contempt. Thankfully those who collect "venomoids" are in the tiny minority but they still pose a real threat to all of us in serious herpetoculture.

I personally rarely come into contact with "venomoid" reptiles or those who keep them except for the few shows that I attend that still permit the sale of these mutilated reptiles. It is a free country and if those collectors want to mutilate their reptiles that is their business. My position is my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to pursue their own ways.

However, my goal is to see US totally separate from THEM.

The "venomoid" crowd should have their own forums, classifieds and get meetings. If you agree, please let me know so that I can approach those in charge of various shows, as well as advertising sources and information forums, to express our need for total non-involvement with the "venomoid" practitioners. Thanks.




Hank Molt Reptiles

[kevyn]

This whole thread is excellant! Ray that article from Hank Molt was outstanding, and very well thought out. I keep only one hot at this moment, but am looking to expand into the keeping of more species of hots . I find the whole concept of venomoids totally repulsive, profit minded and cruel. I don't declaw my cats and couldn't imagine removing venom glands from my snakes. I love snakes for what they are, no matter how dangerous they maybe, that is what was intended be it by God, Goddess or evolution, they are that way for a reason. If a person doesn't want a venomous snake there are plenty of amazing speciems avalible and a wide variety of species to choose from. Well done to the original poster of this thread, I thought it was great and well thought out and put together. I look forward to keeping more hots in the future and all the challenges they bring.

[Crotalus75]

Bump

[TheRedDragon]

Wow Scott, that was an incredibly insightful read for me, and, I hope that if anyone on here that is seriously thinking of keeping hots for the first time reads your post. I, myself, would love to keep hots, especially to have my favourites; Ophiophagus hannah and Crotalus horridus. But, I have a general understanding of all the work, patience, and risks/risk prevention that is needed in hot keeping, and I know for certain that I'm just not ready for that yet. Heck, I still have to get over my nervousness around an ETB!

[Frank_S]

Hello this is my first time here and I am a well seasoned hot keeper. I at the moment don't keep any but I have had many. I had a quite a few elapids and at one time I was up near 100 vens in my care. I have since then stopped keeping them because my child ask me to. In the future I would like to again. I would like to add my 2 cents to this. handling vens is easy for the most part anybody with an average IQ can do it. But like playing the lottery if you keep playing you are bound to win. Or loose. Their are very few vets that will see a hot what will you do when your D. polylepis is egg bound? Will your vet help
? I doubt it.. What about a non feeding atractasppis sp. can you force feed it? Not an easy job.. How do you treat an exotic ven snake bite? Does you doctor know? If he don't it may be worse than not going.... IMHO nobody is really ever ready to keep a hot until they take the first step and get one. At that point you can lie to yourself and keep it or it just starts to click. NO BODY CAN TELL BUT YOU.

FS

[cobraman]

Very good points, Frank. I encourage potential hot keepers to do their homework in advance. Many years ago, I made and started using a bite protoclo book that includes: listed sources of antivenoms, my last labs, emergency names and numbers, next of kin info, living will, a copy of the latest antivenom index from AZA, etc. All this info goes with me if I go to the E.R. post bite. As for the medical aspects, I learned to do most of my proceedure myself, but I do have a couple of vets that will allow me to bring in venomous (through the back door) if need be.
Peace,
Ray Hunter

[MsTT]

Originally posted by Frank_S
Their are very few vets that will see a hot what will you do when your D. polylepis is egg bound?

I suggest doing this: http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/isobox.html Many vets will agree to see a venomous snake if you present this way to render it safely anesthetized before the veterinarian is exposed to the animal.

What about a non feeding atractasppis sp. can you force feed it?

Yes. http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/assist-feed.html Same techniques shown here work fine for Atracaspis. Snake head goes into a plastic tube. A smaller tube (red rubber catheter) with a nutritional slurry or a whole prey item is placed with small hemostats into the snake's mouth and positioning is checked to make sure you are not in the glottis. I recommend a small spatulate dental tool for mouth opening in tubed Atracaspis. Obviously they can't be backed out of the tube into your hand due to the side-snapping fangs, so they remain in the short "head sheathing" tube for the whole procedure.


How do you treat an exotic ven snake bite? Does you doctor know? If he don't it may be worse than not going....

Too true. I have bite protocols and antivenom all ready to go with me, just in case, because the average emergency room doc won't have a clue and certainly won't have exotic antivenom.

[MsTT]

Originally posted by daver676
Good post, but in my opinion, captive hots belong in zoos. ]

In my opinion, captive hots belong only in facilities where:

1. Experienced, highly knowledgeable keepers are on duty at all times to maintain proper husbandry and safety protocols.

2. Professional quality secure housing is used.

3. Veterinary care is available.

4. Antivenom and proper treatment protocol is kept on hand.

Some zoos can meet these criteria. Many cannot. Some private keepers can meet these criteria. Most cannot. The standards should be the same across the board both for institutions and individuals.

As I posted on the BOI:

I agree that there are some individuals who are not responsible enough to keep a dog or a cat properly, let alone a king cobra. I do have concerns about some of these individuals getting hold of venomous snakes and causing problems for the responsible keeping community. Venomous and dangerous animals should be (and in most states, are) properly regulated and licensed, and the standards for being allowed to keep them must be intelligently applied to both public organizations and to private keepers.

I would not be happy about a zoo keeping venomous snakes if there was no keeper at that institution sufficiently qualified to go hands-on with those animals or if their zoo veterinarian was not willing to treat them. A venomous snake in a zoo where the vet won't touch it is arguably in much worse circumstances than in the hands of a private keeper who is completely comfortable handling that animal and who can provide quality veterinary care.

No one should keep venomous snakes who is not prepared to house them securely and to give them appropriate care including hands-on veterinary care. Some private individuals are highly qualified and fully prepared to do this, many are not. And if a public institution does not have enough keepers working there who are highly qualified, they shouldn't have the animal either.

And what happens to the animal if all of those keepers move to another institution? I've actually seen that happen in one zoo; enough of the trained snake specialist keepers left for other jobs within a months' time that there was literally no one left except the head curator who was qualified to open the venomous snake cages. That caused a few husbandry problems, as you can imagine.

There is nothing magic about being either an individual or a zoo. Snake care can be managed either well or poorly under both sets of circumstances. As a general rule there is more attention paid to strict safety protocols and to quality housing in a zoo environment, but keep in mind that a lot of the experienced venomous reptile keepers in the private sectors might have spent years working for those zoos and may know a lot more than any of the keepers who are there currently.

This is not to say that the private sector doesn't have more than its share of yahoos, idiots and irresponsible people of all kinds who make awful messes that zoos generally end up having to deal with. I've worked in a zoo; I understand that point of view thoroughly.

These same idiots also drive motor vehicles, and frankly I am a lot more worried that these same irresponsible people will be a threat to public safety behind the wheel than with a venomous snake. I would much rather deal with a cobra coming at me than a car with a drunk driver. We can't eliminate idiots from society, but we can decide that some activities such as driving a car or keeping dangerous wildlife requires a permit issued only to people who have demonstrated responsibility and competency.

Merely being a zoo is not adequate qualification to keep venomous reptiles. Nor is not being a zoo automatic disqualification. The same rational standards of safety and responsibility must apply to any and all facilities, public or private. By these criteria a surprising number of zoos will fail, and some private keepers will pass.

[cobraman]

I might add that Tanith (Ms T T) is a part of the protocol book that goes with me, largely in part because of her vast knowledge of the animals involved as well as he knowledge of helpfull resources. She was a GREAT help to me with last years Hagen's Viper bite.
Blessings,
Ray Hunter

[MsTT]

Isn't it fun to be bitten by a snake that hardly has any documented envenomation cases in the whole of medical literature? :)

It is generally a good idea to be doing your envenomation protocols research BEFORE handling a new species, not after. LOL Unfortunately for T. hageni there really wasn't much to research. The only thing I could do was to phone up one of the few people in the world who had any direct knowledge of the few bites to humans that have been documented, and another person who knew something about the venom, and have them both call up your doctor.

Anyhow, glad you made it through OK. At least they didn't try to give you Wyeth. I'm sure that having the Venom One folks on the scene helped a lot more than I did. They have a lot of clinical experience managing exotic envenomations and making sure that the local docs don't do anything abysmally stupid like fasciotomy or the wrong antivenom.

[Frank_S]

Ms. TT. BTW how is that big cotton doing the pick up from the Hamburg show? He spent the night before the show here. Looked good to me:0) I am well aware of how to tube (pulled 78 ticks off a demon D. polylepis import with them as well as eye caps and injections on many sp.) but many people don't know how to use them. A few years working with non vens is not IMHO enough time to gain the proper knowledge for hot care or even the care of some non-vens.
my 2
Frank

[MsTT]

Tiny is doing very well, thanks. Much appreciation to Jeremy for this lovely specimen and to Tom Marino for playing snake chauffeur. :)

I used to do a lot of manual tick pulling also, but have moved towards trying a lot harder to minimize stress and to refrain from doing prolonged conscious restraint on wild animals. The product Reptile Relief works beautifully on ticks in my experience and eliminates or at least seriously reduces the amount of time the mamba or cobra has to stay unhappily restrained.

If prolonged restraint or immobility is required for veterinary procedures such as taking radiographs, cardiocentesis for blood sampling, extended physical exam, etc, I'm a strong advocate of using light to moderate sedation depending on the species and how much the patient is at risk of negative health consequences from the prolonged restraint. Local and systemic pain relief medication is also definitely part of my arsenal when any painful or uncomfortable procedures need to be performed, and I have seen it make a major difference in patient behavior and recovery.

Patients resume normal behaviors such as eating and basking in the open much more rapidly if they are given appropriate and humane medication to address both stress and pain issues. Consequently I have to emphasize them both as being a very important and often neglected part of venomous snake veterinary care.

I think that there is an attitude among some snake handlers (not addressing you personally by any means) that it somehow isn't macho to drug a snake that you are handling, it's better to brute-force it and prove that you have the skills. I can't agree with that. I think that there should be a rational assessment as to whether a patient will benefit by any medication before it is given. If the patient benefits, the meds should be given.

Many wild animals including snakes demonstrate marked immunodepression, abnormal behaviors and other clinical signs of stress after being subjected to prolonged conscious restraint. King cobras in particular show really alarming respiratory abnormalities, cardiac irregularity and what appear to be histological changes in their lungs on prolonged restraint. Isometric muscle contractions in a reptile that is forcibly held immobile can cause skeletal or muscular injuries. In plain English that means if the poor things are totally freaking out when you are holding them down, it's really, really not good for their health.

Catching a king cobra doesn't scare me, but watching one go into lactic acidosis and near respiratory arrest with excessive mucus production in the lungs and a weird heartbeat is very scary! So they get the needle every time, unless I'm doing something quick like venom extraction.

Mambas don't seem to show immediate clinical effects when they are restrained for extended procedures without sedation, so I'll do things like 5-minute eyecap removals on mambas without giving them anything. But for any really extended procedure (like pulling a huge number of ticks) I'd sedate any wild animal, including a rat snake or a bearded dragon if it was not accustomed to human handling and showed signs of stress on restraint.

"Physical restraint alone, although sometimes more economical and quick, is often problematic. Persistent struggling will result in muscle contraction and consequent damage, possible hyperkalemia and lactic acidemia. Although bound large reptiles appear immobile they may still be isometrically contracting skeletal muscle."
- "Reptile Anesthesia" by Dr. Darryl Heard, Diplomate American College of Zoological Medicine

http://snakegetters.com/demo/vet/anesthesia.html

[Frank_S]

Very good points. I do have trouble getting meds from vets for even simple thing let alone stuff that may be used on humans. NO vet in my area will see a ven. called them all and some up to 4 hours away for help with an egg bound king. One vet will give out some meds if I was to bring the snake in for an office visit in a locked cage to prove that I have a ven snake. My wife's cousin is a vet and her office said NO way will they allow a ven in their office and her boss said she was not aloud to come here to help because of legal issues with her working in his office. I guess he was scared if she was bit or I was bit while the snake was in her care they could be sued. She has helped alot and probably more than her boss would allow and also gave out some names of vets that could help as she is not good with reptiles. On the sedation issue I never sedated a snake myself on a few occasions but never a snake. :0) Wouldn't you have to tube it for an injection first? I would also be afraid to sedate a snake that was in very poor shape like my black mamba was very dehydrated and malnourished to the point of seeing the bone in his tail as well as very nasty wounds around its neck from the snare poles used in its capture.
FS

[MsTT]

Originally posted by Frank_S Very good points. I do have trouble getting meds from vets for even simple thing let alone stuff that may be used on humans. NO vet in my area will see a ven. called them all and some up to 4 hours away for help with an egg bound king. One vet will give out some meds if I was to bring the snake in for an office visit in a locked cage to prove that I have a ven snake.

Try the open drop box technique - the vet will be able to render the snake totally unconscious before you open the box, if you construct the device on my web page. Maybe a vet will be willing to see your animals that way.


On the sedation issue I never sedated a snake myself on a few occasions but never a snake. :0) Wouldn't you have to tube it for an injection first?

Because the shot can be delivered so quickly, you have two options. I often just nab the tail and give a quick shot in the back muscle before the animal can turn around on me. Sometimes I pull the tail out of the cage but not the head, so the snake has a harder time coming back through the small crack in the door.
The other option is a pole syringe, which I also cover on the web page. You can also tube and shoot of course, but I recommend immediate release back into the cage after tubing and a re-catch when the sedative has taken effect, to avoid the stress of prolonged conscious restraint.



I would also be afraid to sedate a snake that was in very poor shape like my black mamba was very dehydrated and malnourished to the point of seeing the bone in his tail as well as very nasty wounds around its neck from the snare poles used in its capture.

Sedatives in a debilitated animal are a concern. I would recommend Diazepam 0.1 to 0.2 mg/kg in those cases as being the least likely to cause further respiratory or cardiac depression, if any sedation is in fact needed.

An animal in that kind of shape needs fluid support. If an animal struggles while you are administering an intraceolomic fluid drip, that's not healthy either as it can cause internal damage. If the animal is bad off enough that it isn't struggling when you give the ICe shot or debriede its wounds, you don't need a sedative but I would recommend pain meds such as butorphanol and/or buprehnorphine if there are visible wounds.

If you don't know how to give an intraceolomic injection, you can use the oral route, 2% of body weight daily, I'd suggest dilute Pedialyte for electrolyte replacement.

[Mustangrde1]

bump

[Mustangrde1]

Looks like new members so i figured i would just bump it up

[crossley]

Glad to see that there are people out there actually thinking about the ramifications of keeping venomous reptiles in private collections. Its something that requires a great amount of consideration and thought. I kept non venomous snakes for 15 years before I obtained my first venomous species and I eased into it very slowly. The consequences of an accident can be horrific and if a third party is involved it can be even more devastating. There is no room for irresponsibity and keeping a ball python for 3 months does NOT constitute an adequate apprenticeship. There is no shortage of non venomous species to keep and enjoy in our collections.