sick leo

[geckomom]

Hi to all! This is my first post, and since there seem to be so many here that know more than I do about leos, thought I'd try to pick your brains.

I have 2 F leos, have had them about 6 months. Got them as juvies, they've been very healthy, eat well, growing/shedding normally.

I did a major cage cleaning (they're in a 29 gal tank) about 2 weeks ago. Was very careful to thoroughly rinse the tank and all "furniture". Both Thelma & Louise were off feed for about 24 hrs. afterward, but Louise got her normal appetite back. Thelma has refused to eat anything, even if I try to hand-feed her. She's had a few watery poops, her color got duller/darker (not the sheddy color, tho she did shed about 5 days ago). She's a bit lethargic, but does seem to have some normal energy times.
-
Unfortunately, there are NO herp vets anywhere near me, so...I've been trying to nurse her myself. I mix up a "first-aid" concoction and syringe-feed her with:

- Repta-Aid Insectivore/carnivore emergency aid
alternated with:
- Herpcare electrolyte & appetite stimulant
and these products go into both mixes:
- ESU Reptile Jump-Start (concentrated caloric supplement & appetite stimulant for reptiles and amphibians)
- Nature Zone herptile essential probiotics (complete supplement for proper nutrition)
- Jurrasi-Guard (garlic additive for reptiles & amphibians (appetite enhancer & anti-infective agent)

Have also been misting her with ESU Reptile Stress Ease. Have used the Herpcare electrolyte & appetite stimulant in the water bowl, as directed. She's been drinking quite a lot.

I've managed to get about 2cc's of the mixtures into her 2-3 times daily. She still doesn't show any interest in crickets, mealies, waxworms...but - her tail is fat, and she hasn't lost any weight - it actually looks to me like she's a bit heavier than before.

Any suggestions? I wish I knew what brought this on, but I'm clueless! :o Thanks in advance for any ideas/suggestions!:)

[Siretsap]

Well check the temps.
Looks like a tempature problem
Or could be she is going into cooldown but at 6 months olds, it's very rare.

[geckomom]

Temps are good, no changes. Actually, I think they're a bit older than 6 months, they were juvies when I got them. I'd put them about 9-10 months now.

If she was going into a cooldown, would that explain the watery poops? It almost seems like it's some kind of intestinal parasite or bacteria, but neither of them has been exposed to any other animal since I got them, and I've kept up cleaning/maintenance very well.

Thanks for the ideas, tho.:)

[Neo]

when u did the cage clean what did u clean it with (sometimes tap water doesnt filter out some stuff and the leo might've licked some of it).. also did you move around furniture or anything big cause your leos might just be stressed with environmental changes like when a leo goes to another owner or enclosure. it sounds like u've been taking the necessary actions thought so i think your leos will be fine. g/l

[Siretsap]

What are your temps at? Day, night, hot and cold spot?
Also, it is not rare that a lizard will get parasites from what they eat. Some of my leopard geckos got nematodes from crickets last year. This year they got some other parasites from a new gecko I had brought in, some mistake I prob made by touching my doornob after manipulating the new addition without washing my hands.
If the runny defecations continue, you will have to find a vet to get a stool sample done, if this one has it, the other one also has it by now.

[geckomom]

Neo, I cleaned the cage and furnishings with a dilute bleach solution, and rinsed, rinsed, rinsed everything with distilled water, dried w/paper towels, then let it all (including the tank) air dry til I couldn't smell ANY chlorine (the solution was VERY dilute). I did rinse it with tap water, tho - and we have well-water, so even tho everything was dry when I put Thelma & Louise back in their home, it's possible it was something they licked that was left on the cage/furnishings. But only Thelma is sick (she was the more robust gecko from the get-go - more active, better feeder, etc.) Louise hasn't shown any symptoms at all, but I'm assuming if it's something contagious, she could be affected, just not showing symptoms yet.

I did change the layout slightly, and realize this could have disoriented my girls. Won't do that again!

Siretsap, good questions about heat. Day runs about 85, with a UTH on one end, 2 small Cobra Heat mats at the other end (where my sickie hangs out), Also have the red light for additional heat, and a basking light (altho I know they don't specifically need basking, it just helps keep temps high enough and constant, esp. due to the height of the 29 gal. tank). The basking light is on a timer - 12 hrs on/12 hrs off at nighttime.

Night temps approx. 75, with the UTH and heat mats providing "belly heat". They both move around to thermoregulate.

I feed store-bought, gut-loaded crix, mealies, and waxworms, plus the calcium dish, and dust insects with calcium/vitamin dust. Usually add small amount of Exo Terra Electrod3ize liquid supplement and Exo Terra Calcimize conditioner to their water bowl, which is cleaned on a daily basis.

Yesterday, when I syringe fed Thelma my home-made concoction, she seemed very active, alert, climbing up the smaller "critter-catchter I've been "feeding" her in. She's very cooperative in licking my concoction from the syringe, as I'm not confident enough to try to intubate her.

Here's another thought - should I try to "force-feed" her a cricket or two? I wouldn't mind trying, if it would help, but I'm a bit hesitant, having never done that before, and wouldn't want to injure her.

Also, any good recommendations on reference books/materials? I have several books I bought before I got my leos, wanted to check up on everything BEFORE-hand, so as not to run into too many supplies, and to have reference materials on hand.

Thanks all for your replies...It's so helpful for a relative newbie like me to get good advice and ideas from the experts.

Thanks again!

[Siretsap]

Well, I wouln't try to force feed her if you say she didn't loose any weight, but I am thinking of some parasites. Should find a vet to get a stool sample examined. Even if the vet doesn't treat reptiles, some can still do stool exams.
The problem if she has parasites, is usually when they start loosing weight, you do not have much time left so it's better to treat her asap.

[geckomom]

Unfortunately, I've checked with every vet within 50 miles, and NONE of them will do a fecal....they all tell me doing a fecal on a gecko is a "specialty" they just don't do....:mad:

Even checked out some of the good pet stores that specialize in herps, and even tho they have some personell who seem quite knowledgeable, they've basically given me the same suggestions as the people here have given me.

I'm wondering if my syringe feedings might be making Thelma too "full", and that's why she's not responding to live food...

The upside is that she's shedding normally, her color has definitely improved, she seems more alert, drinking quite a lot, has no problem changing her location off and on the heat pads to thermoregulate...except for the refusal to eat and the watery poops, she seems almost back to normal, and so far Louise hasn't shown any obvious symptoms, altho I'm keeping a close watch. :confused:

I just hate the fact that I'm almost sure it must have been something I've done to cause this situation...if anyone has recommendations on good reading material, reference books, etc., I'd be grateful. Thanks:)

[tHeGiNo]

Umm, poop is poop. If there are parasites, they will be able to see. Doesn't matter whether it is horse poo, cat poo, dog poo, elephant poo, lion poo, etc.

[geckomom]

Makes total sense to me - I just wonder why the vets don't see it in the same way...:( :mad: :jawdrop:

[Tim and Julie B]

Hi there,

Sorry to hear about your leo being sick. It's good that you are trying so hard to help her. I see nothing wrong with what you've done so far. What I noticed though is that her stool is probably runny because you are feeding her non-solids. Perhaps you should try to give her a few crickets or mealies. Gently open her mouth and place the insect about 1/2 way into her mouth. She will either accept it or "rub" it out of her mouth. Be sure to try feeding her at night when she'll be most likely to be hungry. Also, leave a shallow dish in the cage with her, dusted liberally with calcium. The dish can be left in the cage at all times and you just simply refill when empty. It's quite likely she is just stressed right now.

Another thing to consider is that she may even be gravid. If you think she has actually become fatter without eating this may be a possibility. Check her belly for the egg bulges which will be noticable through her thin pink skin. Even a leo without a mate can produce and lay eggs. They would be infertile of course, but considering the possible ages it is a consideration.

I hope she comes around and begins to eat on her own. Keep trying to persude a vet near you to do a fecal. Talk to each vet at each clinic if need be. One of them is bound to not have their hear up thier ***! Good luck, let us know how she progresses.

Julie B

[geckomom]

Thanks! Maybe tonight I'll try to get her to eat a criket or two. I'd thought of that "liquid diet = liquid results", too, but was hoping with the appetite stimulants she would start feeding normally again.

I do have the calcium dish, ever since I got my girls, but that was good advice.

As far as I can tell, she's not gravid. Don't see anything like eggs at all, she's just kinda chubby all around, and her tail is nice and fat.

Yes, I will keep harping on the vets, maybe one will get so sick of me, he/she will do a fecal just to get me off his/her back!

Good advice from all, thank you so much. If she comes round, I'll certainly give credit to all of you who have taken the time to answer me.:D

[geckomom]

I got Thelma to eat 3 small crickets. Once I got them into her mouth, she chomped them down!

May try later on today, I'm sure it's probably not good to try to load her up right away, when she hasn't eaten solids for awhile. Now I'm hoping that if I can get a few small crix in her every day, while keeping up the syringe feeding, her appetite will come back.

Many thanks to everyone who helped me out!:)

Another question: can anyone recommend some good reading material on leos? I have some books already, but I'd like something more comprehensive, more "reference material" like.

Thanks again!:rsmile:

[drewlowe]

Sorry having puter problems and job problems so i'm a little late getting to threads!!!

Everyones suggestions are great!!!

I would keep pestering the vets a fecal is a fecal!!! But they may have problems knowing what meds go for which parasite and how much meds to dose. I have a book for you that will help in your situation. I absoultly LOVE this book!!! "Basic understanding of reptile parasites" by roger kling(something) sorry books downstairs and i'm too lazy to run down and get it. But i'm sure if you do a search you'll find it or someone here will know his full last name. I bought mine off of amazon.com. The book is around 10.00 and well worth it!!!

Good luck and let us know how things turn out!!!

[Siretsap]

Didn't the runny poop start before you were feeding her liquids?
Anyhow, if you have a plce where you can use a good microscope (school, or even just ask the vet to use it) you could try to do your stool check yourself. Get your hands on the book called REPTILE MEDECINE AND SURGERY by Mader, one of the best books out there, in fact, hands on for exotic vets, they almost all have a copy and it is quite simple to read. They give you 5 or 7 tests you can do to check for parasites.

[geckomom]

Well, despite everything I tried, Thelma went to the big hide in the sky tonight. I really felt bad, it seemed like she rallied for a bit, but then....well, she just couldn't make it.

I would like to replace her eventually - have to clean/sterilize the tank and everything in it first, so won't be replacing her for awhile. Since Louise is still living, and in good health, is it dangerous to introduce a brand-new leo to her? I was almost thinking of trying a male...could use some advice on what to do, what's the best method of introducting a new leo to one who's already established territory, and if adding a male would make things more complicated.

Thanks for everything!

[bob_thesnowman]

i'm sorry for your loss,something similar happened to me,i had a fat tailed gecko,who was starting to go downhill he had lost a little weight,but still had some fat on his tail,i took him to the vet got some fluids injected into him,i waited a day and a half as to not stress him out to much,i stuck a cricket in his mouth,and he chomped it down with-in seconds,i went to bed,and when i woke up i checked on him and he was dead....i still don't understand why he went down-hill to begin with....anyways about introducing a new gecko,i don't think it's a great idea at the moment even if the other one seems fine,wait about 2 months,and if she still seems fine by then,i'd say you're probably safe,i'd say adding a new leo wouldn't mix things up to much though,but having only one female in the tank she might be over-bred and cause her un-needed stress,if you want to breed leos i'd suggest getting another 4 females to go with the male would be better,or if you just wanted to breed the one female you could get a male,and keep him seperate,and just introduce him a few times a year,but if you're just looking for another "companion" for your leo,i'd definately go for a female

Chris