Poisonous or Venomous?

[Lisa]

I often see the media using posionous and venomous interchangably and some people get upset over which one is used so I thought I'd open a can of worms and say that either is correct. Here are a couple dictionary entries, both which define venom as a poison. Also we have "poison dart frogs", not "venomous dart frogs" yet we don't go around drinking the frogs secretions for them to be administered. (At least I don't).
Heck the dictionary tells you to look at poison as well.

A) ven·om n.
A poisonous secretion of an animal, such as a snake, spider, or scorpion, usually transmitted by a bite or sting.
A poison.
Malice; spite: “They dislike making their just criticism of a useful and earnest man an excuse for a general discharge of venom from small-minded opponents” (W.E.B. DuBois).


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[Middle English venim, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *venmen, from Latin vennum, poison. See wen-1 in Indo-European Roots.]


B) venom

\Ven"om\, n. [OE. venim, OF. venim, F. venin, L. veneum. Cf. Venenate.] 1. Matter fatal or injurious to life; poison; particularly, the poisonous, the poisonous matter which certain animals, such as serpents, scorpions, bees, etc., secrete in a state of health, and communicate by thing or stinging.

Or hurtful worm with cankered venom bites. --Milton.

2. Spite; malice; malignity; evil quality. Chaucer. ``The venom of such looks.'' --Shak.

Syn: Venom; virus; bane. See Poison.

[JoeBradley]

Hey, I posted this exact post in the venomous forum about a month ago. I agree with you. I think they are totally interchangeable and niether one is more correct than the other. I have even heard the croc hunter use the term non-poisonous.

[Lisa]

I missed that post. I'll have to go look for it.

[Yve]

i tend to differ in opinion. It states that the venom is something that is transmitted by bite or sting...which means it affects the injured, intravenously so to speak. Whereas, poison, is secreted from an animals body and will affect you by touching or swallowing it.

venom is derived from venous which means: of veins

In essence, yes, venom is poison, in terms of it being toxic to the body. But I think the difference is in the way it is administered.;)

[JoeBradley]

These definitions came from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. This is the standard dictionary used by schools and colleges. If these definitions are accurate why does everyone have such a problem with the term “poisonous snake”? These words can be interchanged without losing any meaning.

VENOM: poisonous matter normally secreted by some animals (as snakes, scorpions, or bees) and transmitted to prey or an enemy chiefly by biting or stinging; broadly : material that is poisonous

VENOMOUS: 1 : full of venom : as a : POISONOUS, ENVENOMED b : NOXIOUS, PERNICIOUS c : SPITEFUL, MALEVOLENT
2 : having a venom-producing gland and able to inflict a poisoned wound


POISONOUS: 1 : having the properties or effects of poison : VENOMOUS
2 : DESTRUCTIVE, HARMFUL
3 : SPITEFUL, MALICIOUS


POISON: 1 a : a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism b (1) : something destructive or harmful (2) : an object of aversion or abhorrence
2 : a substance that inhibits the activity of another substance or the course of a reaction or process

Here are the definitions from Meriam Webster. I think it is all semantics. I let people use whatever they want. I use venomous because it is more widely accepted in the hot society.

[Yve]

venom is poisonous, that much is understood but I think it is more appropriate to use the word "venomous" when associated with snakes because of the way it is administered. the dictionary does not say that poison is administered with biting or stinging. Therefore, poison cannot be venom. If it were than the bleach under my sink would be considered venomous. Poison is just a general term for something that can harm you. I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think the cane toad has ever been considered 'venomous'. It is 'poisonous' because of the way its toxins are administered.

[JoeBradley]

That seems to be the most accepted view on this topic. Works for me.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Venom is injected, poison is ingested.

[Lisa]

I don't think the administration method is much of a distinction, poison from a poison dart frog is administered via a puncture wound, like a bite or scratch. Leathal injection is deffinetly not venom yet it is administered via a puncture wound as well. I don't know of any studies of venom ingestion, but toad venom is known to be potent when injested (ever lick a toad?).

The only difference I can see is venom is secreted via animals and poisonous via plants how ever when researching this I saw as many references to venomous plants as I did poisonous animals.

As for the origin of venom from venous, i haven't seen that in the word history (see above) "Middle English venim, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *venmen, from Latin vennum, poison." Now the english language evolves (otherwise we wouldn't be using punctuation, and words like computer and grok wouldn't exist) and is always changing. Anyone remember when bad was good?

[reverendsterlin]

last I checked Meriam Webster and most other dictionaries were not scientific. You ask a scientific question and expect an answer based on common usage. Try a biology or evolutionary biology textbook or research papers if you don't want the truth from experts that posted the last time this question was asked and thoroughly explained.

[JoeBradley]

Try a biology or evolutionary biology textbook or research papers if you don't want the truth from experts that posted the last time this question was asked and thoroughly explained.


First: Maybe she did not see the first post. I have seen many questions posted on this site multiple times. This is a legitimate question.

Second: Your everyday layperson and news anchor does not read biology books. Poisonous has been taught to us as small children and it is going to carry over into your adult life.
The term venomous did not come into use until recently. I have seen biology books written by great reptile people in the earlier years of herpetology using the term Poisonous and Poison. I even have a Croc hunter show on tape where he uses the term.

If you want the truth: poisonous is a very acceptable word for a layperson to use.

[reverendsterlin]

for the first, the comment was more directed to you, you had posted been responded to and did not pass on the information you had been provided.

for the second, I would not consider her question from a layperson wanting the standard layperson response. I guided her to more suitable books that would provide more technical answers should she want to research, as I see it she asked a scientific question. Years ago this industry had all sorts of 'laypersons' as the only ones even trying to provide information and there is much wrong information in them, so what was done or said years ago by what ever 'experts' at the time doesn't usually apply here. If a person wants to interchange poisonous and venomous it won't bother me, you had already told her of the other thread so I didn't need to repeat that. Provide whatever level of response you wish to a question Joe, but don't criticize mine.

[Yve]

Lisa, how does a poisonous dart frog administer the wound? I wasn't quite clear on your description. Do you mean that if the poison touches an open wound it will infect your blood stream by that means? From what I've read and heard, the consensus is, that if it is injected from an animal it is called venom(which, ofcoarse, is poisonous). The definition posted does describe venom as poison but poison is not described as venom in the dictionary (Oxford English). Even synonymous words don't always mean "exactly" the same thing. Some apply more to certain situations then others and that is how I see it in this case.
The origin of the word venom is not venous, but they share the same stem and thus are derived from the same origin.

vena -ae f. [a blood-vessel , vein, artery; a water-course; a vein of metal; a vein of talent, disposition, natural inclination].
venenifer -fera -ferum [poisonous].

As for toad venom, perhaps any poison coming from an animal or living thing is considered venom. Looking at the origin it doesn't seem to make sense though. Perhaps its just the simple fact that many people use these two synonymous words interchangeably without knowing their origins. The origin is in fact, the root of the definition.

[JoeBradley]

for the first, the comment was more directed to you, you had posted been responded to and did not pass on the information you had been provided.

What comment was directed to me?
I told her I agreed with her and gave her the info that I used in my forum.

That seems to be the most accepted view on this topic. Works for me.

I also gave this response to the post by YVE. YVE had already given her the answer I received so I saw no need to repeat it. My opinion on this issue has not changed since my post on the topic. I have not given any new opinions or tried to pursued anyone differently. I even said that YVE's explanation worked for me.

for the second, I would not consider her question from a layperson wanting the standard layperson response.

She specifically said the media.

Provide whatever level of response you wish to a question Joe, but don't criticize mine.

You criticized me.

[SCReptiles]

Please over look Joe, the rest of SCR knows the difference between poisonous and venomous.

[reverendsterlin]

Dr. Dawn Ruben "Snakes are not poisonous and frogs are not venomous. Venom is a toxic substance that is injected. Certain species of snakes, scorpions and spiders are venomous, not poisonous...A poison is a substance that is absorbed through the skin or ingested, resulting in toxicity. Certain amphibians, fish and insects secrete a substance that is poisonous. The poisonous animal does not inject the substance into another creature."

This is off the San Diego zoo site in the children's questions section "First, there’s technically a difference between poisonous and venomous. Poisonous means that something is toxic if it is swallowed or absorbed. Venomous describes an animal that injects toxic venom into another animal, usually with teeth or fangs but sometimes with spines or spurs."

and this is off The American Board of Veterinary Toxicology website.
"A note about the difference between the terms POISONOUS and VENOMOUS. A mistake is commonly made using either of these terms interchangeably. While related, these terms have distinctive, unique meanings. A poisonous animal or plant contains a toxic substance within it constituent parts or on its surface. Poisonous is the term that describes the majority of plant derived toxins as well as polar bear liver (vitamin A), poison arrow frogs or toads. The term venomous means that the organism has a toxic substance and a specialized organ for delivering this substance. Some examples of venomous animals and their venom delivery apparatus are bees <the stinger>
venomous snakes <the hollowed fang> scorpions <the stinger>."

[reverendsterlin]

for a little leviety did you know that there is one genus of birds with I think 5 species that is poisonous.

[Lisa]

Well, something can be "scientificly correct" and actually I am asking as general usage, I'm not writing any scientific papers, I'm looking at it more from a language point of view. I think it's safe to say most people on this site are not biologists, chemists, biochemists organic chemists or the like. The point I'm trying to make is there's no reason for people to get upset over a simple difference of words.

[chas*e]

Semantics......Tomato's ...Tomatoes.

[reverendsterlin]

I think the term 'common usage' should be changed to 'common mis-usage'

[Gary D.]

Ignorance may be understandable, but is never excusable.

The average lay person does not know the difference between a Burmese python and Boa constrictor. Are you suggesting it is OK to use these names interchangeably, after all they are both Boids and are both constrictors?

GD

[JoeBradley]

Hey, Lisa,
Chase and I agree with you, Semantics, but this issue will never be resolved among the reptile community. It is right up there with "free handing hots" and "venomoids". If we all agreed on these issues this site would be boring.

Reverandsterlin,
I see what you and others are saying about the use of Venomous (which I use myself) and Poisonous. I just do not think that the "common" people should be reprimanded for using the wrong term. If my mechanic made fun of me everytime I told him there was a clinking noise coming from that "thingie" right there I would quit going to him. When people come up to me and ask me about the poisonous snake I gladly talk to them about it and hope to spark and interest within them to care about reptiles and then let them pick up on the "lingo" when they get into learning about them.

Joe

[eyespy]

It's up there with the whole square/rectangle thing, too. All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. All venoms are poison but not all poisons are venom. At least folks are in the ballpark, calling a shape a shape's name and a toxin a toxin's name. I am not going to lose sleep over people using or misusing any of these terms, there are bigger fish to fry.

[JoeBradley]

Ahhhh, come on Eyespy, I know you lay awake at night just trying to come up with ways to solve this slaughter of the herpetological language. ;)

Joe

[eyespy]

Joe, I'd far rather lose sleep watching nocturnal herps and enjoying a strong cup of tea. ;)

[MouseKilla]

Poison birds...? Damn, I thought I made those up...LOL!

[reverendsterlin]

I knew I had an old pic I had found somewhere
http:// http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272Pituhoi2.jpg
the hooded pitohui harbors the powerful neurotoxin Tetradotoxin
in its feathers. Chemically, this is an identical molecule to that
found in Central American poison dart frogs (genus Phyllobates).
Whether the toxin is produced by the bird, something in its diet,
or an associated bacterium is unknown.

[reverendsterlin]

oops
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/272Pituhoi2.jpg

[reverendsterlin]

oh and the Ifrita kowaldi (another bird genus) in Africa was found with the same alkyloids

[JoeBradley]

I wonder what the reason behind that is? Does the bird taste bad and the predator lets it go? Seems to serve no helpful purpose for the bird if him and the predator die.

[Thorn07]

All venom is poision but not all poision is venom.

[reverendsterlin]

here is a link (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=27162) to the last paper by J. P. Dumbacher et al on Batrachotoxin alkaloids from passerine birds: A
second toxic bird genus (Ifrita kowaldi) from
New Guinea, presented at the Proceedings of the
National Academy of Science USA, November 21, 2000

[Lisa]

Originally posted by JoeBradley
I wonder what the reason behind that is? Does the bird taste bad and the predator lets it go? Seems to serve no helpful purpose for the bird if him and the predator die.


It's for survival of the species. Like stink bugs. My cats will not kill stink bugs anymore.