View Full Version : New Lampro (Not sure of locale)
Invictus
10-21-03, 11:14 PM
Ok, I adopted this King snake, thanks to Mark IsBell (I won't say who the original owner was in case she doesn't want anyone to know). Problem is, we're having trouble identifying the locale. We were told it is a "davis" or maybe "davies" locale CalKing.. but my searches on the net for this turned up NOTHING. She does look surprisingly like an Eastern Chain king snake, but doesn't have the usual face markings you'd expect.
Anyway, she's got a pretty classic king attitude so far - lots of tail rattling and a bit of musk while she's getting used to us. :) No bites yet though (knock wood).
Please let me know if you've heard of a Davis CalKing, but I'm pretty convinced it's an eastern:
http://www.invictusart.com/images/Egraine03.jpg
To go along with the theme of most of my other Lampros, her name is now Igraine. (We have Arthur, Guenevere, and Merlin, and will be picking up Morganna soon. :))
This brings our count up to 27 snakes. I regret nothing!
Tim_Cranwill
10-21-03, 11:31 PM
<i>"This brings our count up to 27 snakes. I regret nothing!"</i>
Shame on you! ;)
We need a full body shot here guys. Could it be a melanistic aberrant cal king??? :)
Looks like those "Menedota" cal kings someone was posting on queensnake.com They are also called Davis kings I believe. Since I cannot link to queensnake here (and dont want too) I will just qoute the poster:
"There are a few isolated populations of melanistic kingsnakes throughout the Central Valley of California as depicted by the triangles in the range map in Stebbin's field guide. These are sometimes refered to as black-belly Cal kings and yes they do look very similar to the Baja kings. Their color is a little lighter (more brown) than the Baja animals which tend more toward black. The patterns are also more distinct in the Calif specimens. Eric Loza wrote an article about them in the old Reptile and Amphibian Magazine though I do not know what issue."
Photos of various cal kings, locals, including Mendota cal kings.
http://myweb.cableone.net/azmilk/king.htm
Marisa
NewLineReptile
10-21-03, 11:37 PM
What ever it is sure is nice
Congrats!
Brandon
Clownfishie
10-21-03, 11:58 PM
She's very pretty -- and excellent name choice! Hehe.... Best of luck with her...
positive it isnt an eastern? how old is she?
Jeff_Favelle
10-22-03, 01:01 AM
Excellent photo!! :D
Invictus
10-22-03, 10:24 AM
Marisa - You rock! I think you hit the nail right on the head with the Menedota King. The site you posted says they are also called "Black Bellied Kings". This thing's belly is as black as an indigo, and it is a chocolate brown color. Thanks!
Invictus
10-22-03, 10:26 AM
Anyone got a male they can sell me? :D
I would think its definitly a Davis/Mendota king than. King localities ROCK!!!!
I would definitly try and get your hands on a male for that lady and keep up with the locality instead of breeding it out into another "phase" or locality. But it sounds like thats what you will do! Not enough California locality specific kings in Canada if you ask me! But then again, I am a HUGE California Kingsnake fan. haha
Good luck with her. How big/old?
Marisa
Invictus
10-22-03, 12:10 PM
How old? No idea. How big? I'd say pushing 4 feet. No worries on me cross-breeding even the different locales. If I can't find another Menedota, she's a pet, not a breeder.
Invictus, be careful about calling an animal a locality when you have no locality info whatsoever. When people sell locality stock, it means their line comes from WC's in a locale. Just because a snake looks like a locality doesn't mean it has to have come from it. Big difference there. The Mendota look can be reproduced by outcrossing too so there's not guarantee that yours is from that locality. It may look like it but do not slap a locality name on it. If this same thing happened in most US forums, there would be lots more problems.
Instead, maybe just call it a Davis-TYPE Black belly or something. Sounds better than claiming locality on a non-locale info animal. Still a nice snake and it's am awesome find! Lucky a**! Find some more and let me know! :)
P.S. BTW, if you're ever short on cash or need to find a new home for her/him, feel free to give me a shout. ;)
Since you don't know the locality for sure, personally, I'd breed her to an albino. The higher melanistic look would produce whiter albinos. Like I had with Angel...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/pc4db298a5411ef884f559f68e8c7b99c/fd2add20.jpg
Thanks for looking
gonesnakee
10-22-03, 06:53 PM
I think Marisa hit it pretty close on the head. The snake was orginally purchased from a petstore in Edmonton (PJ's pets ?) & was sold as a Davis (or Davies) locale. Age is unknown. The pictures in Marisa's link look real close to me (having seen/owned the snake). I orginally told Ken what I've said here & that I thought it might be some kind of Eastern or Chain/California cross or maybe even a type of melanistic. I even called it a "chocolate phase CK" just to throw a name at it. It is definitely Choclately to look at & has a nice solid black belly. I have no idea for sure but Marisa's link is the closest "educated guess" yet IMO. Mark I.
P.S. Any luck on getting er to eat for you Ken?
That is a pretty cool looking cali king! Some of them can get pretty darn dark. Those baja cali kings can be almost solid black!
Anyhow, just to back up Vanan, another reason not to slap on locale info on an animal when you have no DEFINITIVE proof is that you take away from those breeders that have been working hard to keep their locale info/lines pure. Many of them keep track of their babies in order to know where they are going, who is breeding so that further down the line, they can say, YES, that animal is such and such locale. If you want to know hardcore locale people and really get an understanding, get to know ROSY BOA PEOPLE. Darn, many are die hard purists (Roy and myself included). Also John Cherry is a die hard purist for many NA colubrids and just a good guy to talk to.
It can be really exciting to get an animal and think oh it's this or that, and blah blah blah. I know I went through that, but the reality is, there aren't a lot of neato locality animals in Canada. There doesn't seem to be a market and thus no supply. It's good to see that there are people out there (Marisa, Vanan and yourself) who do want to keep locales pure, but before you begin, make sure your animal is without a doubt locale pure!
~Katt using Vanan's acct
Well I definitly agree with that.
I must say it is true that putting names on things can cause problems down the line for sure and when keeping localities really PURE this definitly counts. Because in the end this snake may be a freak of another local, or in fact a Davis king, or a mix.
I guess when breeding this particular king you could just sell them as very dark cal kings to avoid placing any label on them.
Marisa
Invictus
10-22-03, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by gonesnakee
P.S. Any luck on getting er to eat for you Ken?
Hehehehe.... 2 adult mice down the hatch without so much as an argument! Just a lot of tail rattling. (So much for being a problem feeder eh?) As I suspected Mark, I think this one just prefers freshly whacked mice.
gonesnakee
10-23-03, 01:04 PM
Like I said Ken, I figured she just needed a new "place" & some time & patience. Glad to hear she co-operated right away for you. Mark
Congrats on the new addition!
andrea88
10-24-03, 05:15 PM
Glad to see she's doing well with you!
(It was a she eh? Thought so......)
Her empty cage looks so lonely.... :( We are gonna miss her but it looks like you are doing well with her. She was getting neglected with the new baby around and I'm more than happy to see her with someone who can give her some muchly needed attention.
If you have any questions about her at all feel free to pm or email me.
Edited to add: If you do a search on queensnake.com's kingsnake forum for "mendota" or "davis" you can find a bit more info. on them.
snakegal12345
10-25-03, 07:24 PM
i like that girl shes pretty
i came accross these pics http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/lgcaliforniaedaviscustaub.jpghttp://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/lgcaliforniaedavisventrst.jpghttp://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/lgcaliforniaedavisstaub.jpg
"Adult male "Davis" or Blackbelly phase, Yolo County, courtesy of Rick Staub"
looks like you may indeed have a "davis/blackbelly" cal king. the one in the pics i posted looks a bit more abberant, but the same colors and such. either way, that snake you have is KILLER. wouldnt mind obtaining one or two myself. get another one and produce some davis local babies;)
Please oh please people! If you got no locality info, don't slap a name to it! Unless andrea88 can clarify that part about why it's supposed to be a locality snake. If they have some lineage info. There is a difference between locale and type.
A Bloody Purist
i totally agree with you, vanan, that if you are breeding snakes of a certain locality, to make sure you are positive of the locality. we dont want to end up with just one big mix-*** species of cal king and no locale phases in the hobby. i dont think anyone here slapped a name on it. just trying to help invictus identify his new acquisition to prevent the above from happening. that is if he even plans to breed her. regardless, it is a stunning specimen and i find myself drawn to this thread right away every time i log on to ssnakess. now i want one.:eek:
anyone here breed the davis or mendota locals?
Cool munchy. I do agree that king is pretty similar to the locality one but it's just good ethics not to call something a locality without proof.
Invictus
11-05-03, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Vanan
Please oh please people! If you got no locality info, don't slap a name to it! Unless andrea88 can clarify that part about why it's supposed to be a locality snake. If they have some lineage info. There is a difference between locale and type.
A Bloody Purist
Ok, Mr. Bloody purist,
Why is it that I have never seen you comment if someone posts about having a Mid-Baja Rosy boa? Or a Suriname Boa? Or a Guyanan Boa? These are all LOCALES, and almost invariably cannot be traced back to the WC specimen. Should we go around telling everyone with a Mexian Rosy or a "Mid-Baja" Rosy that they are guily of bad practices? Or is it just king snakes you are a purist about?
Or could it be that unless this was a pure locale king snake, there is no way it would have the signature black belly and chocolate brown markings that ONLY this locale of cal king snake has? I've been to a million CalKing websites that show all kinds of localities. Odd thing - not one of them except the Mendota have a super shiny black belly. So out of curiosity, do you have any way to DISprove that this is a Davis/Mendota California King snake?
Invictus
11-05-03, 01:10 PM
Oh, and what about the Asian ratsnakes I also posted in another thread? You said they were definitely Taiwans. Can you trace them back to Taiwan? How do you know they are not Yunnans? By their appearance, that's how you knew. And yet, when I display a king snake that has an appearance common ONLY to one single locale of king snake, you get up in arms. Can you explain this to me?
Emily-Fisher
11-05-03, 01:25 PM
Oooh, Ken's on FIYAH! :p
Gorgeous snake you've got there. Good luck with him!! When it comes to kings, I'm a dummy so I can't really pick sides right now so I'm basically just poking my head in to say that you have a beautiful new snake :) Nuff said from me!
Ok, Mr. Bloody purist
Oooh, touchy are we. :)
Why is it that I have never seen you comment if someone posts about having a Mid-Baja Rosy boa? Or a Suriname Boa? Or a Guyanan Boa? These are all LOCALES, and almost invariably cannot be traced back to the WC specimen. Should we go around telling everyone with a Mexian Rosy or a "Mid-Baja" Rosy that they are guily of bad practices? Or is it just king snakes you are a purist about?
Mostly cos I'm not into boas and don't frequent those forums much. Besides, a locale is more than the country it's found in. And again, I usually leave it to my partner in crime to deal wth boas. But just to add, Mid-Baja rosies are NOT locality rosies. They are consistent of a group. Localities are your Bay of LA's, Anza Borrego's etc. Edcuate yourself. :)
Or could it be that unless this was a pure locale king snake, there is no way it would have the signature black belly and chocolate brown markings that ONLY this locale of cal king snake has? I've been to a million CalKing websites that show all kinds of localities. Odd thing - not one of them except the Mendota have a super shiny black belly. So out of curiosity, do you have any way to DISprove that this is a Davis/Mendota California King snake?
The main reason behind my disapproval is that, why in the world would a locality caliking (not even that common in the US) show up in a damn petstore in Edmonton. In other words, why would a breeder who breeds locality kingsnakes sell to a Petstore up in Canada or why would a snake found in California be up here in a petstore? Hence my skepticism. BTW here's another proof as to how other snakes can also have black bellies.
<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196lucibelly.jpg">
Same snake.
<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/196lucibod.jpg">
There are also some Baja California kings who exhibit the same dark coloration. Almost as black as nigrita as babies (belly included).
Oh, and what about the Asian ratsnakes I also posted in another thread? You said they were definitely Taiwans. Can you trace them back to Taiwan? How do you know they are not Yunnans? By their appearance, that's how you knew. And yet, when I display a king snake that has an appearance common ONLY to one single locale of king snake, you get up in arms. Can you explain this to me?
*sigh* Taiwans and Yunnans are NOT locality snakes but are subspecies of O. taeniura. There's a fine line drawn wherein a different looking "race" warrants a subspecific status. But this is only backed up with DNA Analysis nowadays. One day, if someone had the time to work on L. g. californiae and figure out that the Davis Co./Mendota locale are a different subspecies of L. getulus, then YES, I would agree that yours would be that subspecies. Unfortunately when you're not talking about ssp, you have no proof unless it's traceable to a locality.
reverendsterlin
11-05-03, 02:04 PM
Ken, you kind of proved the point with Lichanura trivirgata saslowi the mid-baja rosy. I don't see anyone saying you don't own a nice L. g. californiae or even that it has the mendota 'look' that could be achieved with only one mendota parent or throw back several generation down the road, but if someone tells me they have a San Felipe locale mid-baja rosy it means something different, if I get a Marfa, Hwy 277, or Loma Alta locale alterna I expect something very specific and the people that are known breeders keep the records to back their claims. The trick with a locale specific animals is that it has to be proven it is the claimed animal otherwise it is JUST a mid-baja, alterna, cali-king. You want to say it looks like something more specific, who cares. You want to claim it is something specific the proving is up to you.
Invictus
11-05-03, 03:53 PM
Ok, you two have made your points as well, except for the Guyana/Suriname question. Those are NOT a different sub-species, and be it from another country or even another locale within the same state, the point is the same - you identify it as being one or the other because it looks like one or the other. I was merely wondering why the purism only seemed to apply to king snakes in this instance. Rev, you made a really good point with the San Filipe etc. Mid-Bajas. I do see the point now. I don't agree with it, since I feel that this particular locale of king snake is so far different in appearance that there is only one possible way that you could get a snake that looked like this one, but I do see the point.
Invictus
11-05-03, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Vanan
[B]Oooh, touchy are we. :)
Not at all.. you signed one of your posts "A bloody purist", so I jokingly made reference to it. :)
The main reason behind my disapproval is that, why in the world would a locality caliking (not even that common in the US) show up in a damn petstore in Edmonton.
Oh, I dunno... how do all these damn Australian pythons end up in Canada? You might as well be asking this question. The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare. Maybe the breeder needed the money. Maybe he had a suplus of them. Who the hell knows?
It's a loaded question.
I just want to point out, Yunan's are a locality and are a sub-species.
Invictus,
the assusie pythons in NA are here b/c they were allowed to be imported until Australia closed it's borders many many many years ago.
was merely wondering why the purism only seemed to apply to king snakes in this instance.
<laugh> You have NO idea, how FANATICAL rosy boa enthusiasts are about locality. Rosies exist solely in isolated locales, heck, check out greybands where people go by which side of the road they find snakes from.
If you had a group of animals you were claiming locality on, then hey, we'd be getting on your case about all of them, not just the kingsnake. In this specific case, your king is a king, and that's why we're on it.
The black belly doesn't mean much. Look at Luci, Vanan posted, she's got a black belly, it just looks milky b/c of the angle, shedness, and flash.
The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare
Well if you found only ONE site selling them, that sounds pretty darn uncommon to me.
Keep in mind, breeders, don't just sell to one lone pet store. Most stores buy from wholesalers, or locals. If somehow, a wholesaler got a hold of some Davis/Mendota locale why aren't we seeing more of these in Canada? How does ONE SINGLE pet store in one of the more northern parts of Canada get such a specefic locale of cal king? It's not impossible, but HIGHLY unlikely.
Believe what you will about your king, but without PROOF, your claim has no backing. Claiming publically that your king is such and such, is false information. Neither Vanan nor I, nor Rev will get into any trouble, since it's not ours, but we're informing you of your mistake in claiming locale on your snake. Do you really want a BUYER (if by chance you breed her) coming back on you and asking for proof of locale and with you not having any, getting a bad name for yourself?
Understand what we're saying or not. This is a public forum, and by making an example of you, we're hopefully preventing more similar questions by newbies about locale and type.
Just b/c a snake has one or two, or a few relatives that were ABC locale, does not make it ABC locale. ALL RELATIVES, ALL SNAKES IN THE LINEAGE MUST BE ABC locale. Does that make sense, your snake, may have had a grandparent of Davis or Mendota or Randy's logcabin by the creek locale, which has passed on a "look", but that doesn't meant it is that locale.
Melanism and black bellies are rampant in cal kings.
I think the problem with the locality lable is that this king may indeed look 100% like a Davis/Medota king, with black belly etc. BUT it's mother could have been a black and white mojave cali while its father was Mendota...possibly not a perfectly accurate example, but if you were to breed this with another Mendota king, blood not from the locality is still in the hatchlings via (possible) one of the grandparents since you don't know lineage making them not pure localities in some way to some people. So as a safegaurd against a muddy pool of locality kings and all locality kings turning into just line breed or morphs instead to achieve the look, people do not always like to see such labels unless it can be proved this snake came from that locality or directly as a result from snakes who did.
I dunno. Either way, nice king. lol
Marisa
The only site that I saw that had Mendota CalKings was selling them for $70. Evidently they aren't THAT rare.
Prices of snakes do not always reflect how rare they are. S FL mole kings are pretty darn rare and a few dedicated enthusiasts are trying very hard to preserve them (you know who you are ;)). Don't see a price tag in the thousands for them.
Like I've mentioned several times, I've got nothing against your snake (in fact I darn well love it!) but calling it a locality with no proof is unethical in this hobby. And again, any locale look of snakes can be outcrossed and regained again. :)
Invictus
11-05-03, 05:12 PM
Thanks for the info guys. Sorry if I came across as being a bit confrontational here, but it does get frustratng to me... I know it's a CalKing, but it's not a normal CalKing - so I find out what it most likely is, and I like to have a name for its particular appearance, and I find out I can't ethically use that locale name.. so basically I have something that MIGHT be exceptionally rare in Canada but can't prove it... ARGH! Ya know?
I'll see if I can find the breeder.
Hey Invictus, that's cool man. Not trying to get on your back, but you know, us crazee herpers take things so seriously sometimes. That's especially true of us, b/c we're both hardcore. <laugh>
You could say it's mendota type, or mendota look a like. Something that gives an idea of what it looks like, without claiming anything, ya know!
Glad everything's been resolved peacefully!
Sorry if I came across as being a bit confrontational here,
A bit?! are u kiddin?! LOL! j/k man! No worries! :)
You could try finding a similar looking king and breed Mendota type calikings. Just make sure to let people know that they're not pure locale. Same thing with hybrid breeders. I'm mostly against hybrid breeders cos of the bad ethics amongst some. Some don't even know what crosses are involved but sell em as pure stock. Ok for someone buying a family pet but not ok for a future breeder. And then again there are great hybrid people like Mark Isbell! :)
Anyways, post more pics of your "Mendota" caliking man! :)
SerpentLust
11-05-03, 08:34 PM
Whatever he is, he's a beauty :)
Jenn
reverendsterlin
11-05-03, 09:24 PM
the Guyana/Suriname question is a good one. Like several of the greyband locales the phenotype has a variation in looks so visually 2 locals can look the same. Once again it comes to record keeping, specialists know where the animal was collected. A Bcc collected in Surinam is a suri, collected in Guyana it's a guyanan. This is the exact reason locale specific breeders, sellers, and buyers are so picky about records and lineage charts. Good luck finding the breeder, and if he does have records be sure to get copies for yourself.
gonesnakee
11-06-03, 12:50 AM
Quite a little thread ya got over my little drive to Canmore LOL I'm sure Andrea is glad to see/hear that you have become so involved with this girl. Good Luck Mark
Scales Zoo
11-06-03, 10:45 PM
I wish I would have found this thread earlier, I have so much I could have said along the way.
First, yes Vanan is both a king snake freak and a hardcore locality freak. Mix those two together and you have very passionate person (remember tuesday night vanan?)
I've got some input on the surinam - guyanan boas.
Most breeders of these obtained breeding stock, sometimes directly from the importers - because, they too are locality freaks.
I know people who go down there and hand pick snakes, and can tell you what rock they found the snake by. I don't know of many second generation guyanans or surinams available in Canada - and there are still few cb specimens available.
If I want a cb surinam boa, I don't buy it from a jobber or a store, I would buy it from a breeder that I know and trust.
So, the babies sold from these pairings can be called surinam boas.
Now, there are those who breed "red tailed boas". I remember 3 years ago, we got a boa that looked just like a surinam. We asked people if they thought it was a surinam, and I learned that it was ajust a very pretty common boa - and if I bred it to a bcc or bci, I risked creating mutts. The snake is now a "pet" somewhere else, it will not be bred - because I don't know if it is a bcc or bci or a cross.
If it gets bred to a bci in the future - oh well, bci's are pretty much non locality specific - unless you find one of the breeders working with true locality snakes - advertising them as such.
Also, one other thing... as far as locality snakes are concerened, I would never even trust what is typed on any wholesale list one finds in Canada. There are many reasons for this, and I won't get into it any more deeply- but I suspect you've seen a few of them, and realize some of what I am saying.
So, what I am saying, is you are a lucky man to have such a nice kingsnake, but you should pair it up with a snake of your choice and sell the babies as kingsnakes.
If you find one that looks just like it, you are well within your rights to sell the babies as "type" snakes. But if someone finds out you are selling snakes as true locality snakes - when you can't truly prove lineage and such, it will be detrimental to your future reputation as a breeder.
It might suck, but it is the way things work.
Ryan
(remember tuesday night vanan?)
Ryan! It's supposed to stay behind the bedroom doors!! Shhh!!
:D
Invictus
11-07-03, 01:04 PM
Well, Erin and I talked about it, and I think we're going to breed this lovely girl with our Albino CalKing and just sell the babies as "Black bellied CalKings het for albino". When my male lavender king gets older, who knows... maybe I'll be producing some double hets. We'll see. :)
That would be an interesting move. Cos I'm sure that's how the blizzard calkings started. With amelanistic hypermelanistic calkings. I'm sure you'd get something pretty close to them if you F2'ed the babies.
Invictus
11-07-03, 01:36 PM
By F2, you mean breeding the child back to the parent, right? So F3 would be 3rd line inbred and such? I asked this before, but I don't think I got a response. And as for blizzards, I thought I would also need an axanthic to eliminate the albino's yellow pattern. But, if I F2 and get blizzards, so much the better!
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant more like breeding the F1 babies from the first pairing to each other. Meaning sibling to sibling, het to het. That way you get a chance of producing a amelanistic hypermelanistic calking.
The blizzard in calkings is not the same as corns and shouldn't be called that. But that again it's just a coined name. In breeding blizzard calkings you'd need a melanistic/hypermelanistic and an amel. The line originated from the melanistic baja calkings but I don't see why a hypermelanistic female would not be able to produce something close to it.
Yup, Vanans right. This goes back to my earlier post in this thread. An albino melanistic Calking appears cleaner and whiter because of the melanistic trait. Heres another pic of Angel to give you an idea.
http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1033angelcoils2.jpg
She LOOKS like she's a solid white snake, but if you look closer she has faint yellow on her. The yellow is more visible in the pic in my first post in this thread.
The white on a normal Calking turns yellow on amelanstic Cals because of the lack of black pigment.(not sure why yellow) With a melanistic or hypermelanistic Calking, the yellow on the albino phase will be washed out or eliminated because of the darker pigment in the white of the original melanistic snake. The darker the melanistic snake is, the whiter the albino will be.
Invictus
11-08-03, 12:11 PM
That's awesome! Well, it looks like I've found a little project for myself. How much do blizzard kings usually sell for?
I paid $70/US for Angel when she was about 2 ft. She was sold to me as an Albino Snow. Not really sure what the difference is between a Snow and Blizzard. I've seen Blizzards advertised for up to $150/ US
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