Finished my incubator/How to Pics

[JDouglas]

I finally finished building my incubator. After several tests and design changes I am happy with it. I have tested it repeatedly to make sure it works properly. Over the last five days it has stayed at a constant temp of 89.6F. WARNING - I have never used it to incubate eggs but hopefully will soon.

Here is a pic of what it looks like.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/507/2806Final-med.JPG


First I taped an 11" piece of flexwatt to the bottom of the cooler. I am using a ESU thermostat and after placing the probe in several different locations I found the place that matches the temp. What I mean is if the temp on the thermostat is set at 89F the inside of the egg chamber is at 89F. Bricks are used to make a bridge for a shelf and 1 ltr water bottles are placed in the bottom. They hold in heat and help eliminate hot spots.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2806DSCN8124-med.JPG


Next I placed all the water bottles in the bottom and added the egg crate shelf. I tried using water and an aquarium heater in the bottom. It didn't work well. I think I had a faulty heater because the temps were very unstabe. Also after a week I could smell mildew. The water bottles allow me to add 9 liters of water to maintain temps and eliminate hot spots without worrying about mold or mildew.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2806DSCN8128-med.JPG


For an egg chamber I used a plastic tub. 3 pieces of egg crate are stacked in the bottom and water is filled up to just past the second crate. This creates a nice layer of insulation for the eggs, holds heat, releases humidity, and helps eliminates hot spots. The eggs will be placed in the smaller dish. Notice the excess water at the bottom of the dish. If the eggs were placed directly on the crate they would be subjected to all of that moisture. I used this same egg chamber at room temps for fox snake eggs. I decided to add the dish after noticing that the bottom of my fox snake eggs ballooned up almost to the point of bursting.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2806DSCN8129-med.JPG

After placing the egg chamber on the shelf I put on the 1/4 inch glass lid that allows me to see the eggs without opening the chamber. (opening the chamber would cause a sudden drop in temp). Two one liter bottles are added to each side of the cooler to help with heat retention. As you can see their is not much empty space in the incubator. The heater only runs in short bursts and stays off a lot longer than it is on. This is what the inside of the finished incubator looks like.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2806DSCN8132-med.JPG

I thought about adding a computer fan to help circulate air and eliminate hot spots but hotspots don't seem to be a problem and there is simply no room for one. I also plan to connect a second thermostat to the first one in case it malfunctions. Well, tell me what you think and let me know if you have any questions.

[Siretsap]

Very ingenious design you got there.
Will keep it in mind for my bp eggs.
Let us know how good it will work.

[jay76]

I think it looks like a really good design Jaremy! That's quite a masterpiece of ingenuity - the water bottles are especially clever.

As for questions, what happened to the fox snake eggs? Did any hatch?

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's a PERFECT monitor incubator!

I just hope it will work as well for Pythons!!

[JDouglas]

As for questions, what happened to the fox snake eggs? Did any hatch?

The fox snake eggs were so bloated that when they cut the shell they really gushed out A LOT of fluid. A few I had to cut myself. I think the internal pressure was keeping them from cutting out. It was a 100% hatch and all were alive but one had its body fused togehter in the middle. It was fused about two inches below the head and about an inch above the vent making a circle with a head and a tail. It was born alive and was actually quite fiesty. It couldn't crawl well and it wouldn't eat so I had to put it down rather than let it starve to death. I wish I would have kept the pics of him. It was sad...

[JDouglas]

That's a PERFECT monitor incubator!

Well maybe if it doesn't work for IJCP I will get some Ackies...

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[Will]

That looks like a great design, JD. Can you fit more than one egg chamber in there, or just the one...? I suppose it wouldn't be that much more difficult to just build on a slightly larger scale if need be.

Also, Jeff F may be able to answer this one. You mentioned it'd be good for monitors, how do you think that would hold up for incubating Lampro eggs...? I'm starting to look around for ideas, but am not sure exactly what I'm looking for... If you know what I mean.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm sure it would be just fine for any colubrid eggs. Actually milk and king eggs are pretty tough to kill, so I would be surprised if that incubator didn't give you a 100% hatch rate with HEALTHY eggs.

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
That's a PERFECT monitor incubator!


Why is that?

I think you'd see a lot of full term dead in egg with that system, but that is just my opinion ;)

[Vanan]

I think you'd see a lot of full term dead in egg with that system, but that is just my opinion

Why would you say that? Only cos this year we did experience alot of full term deads with an incubator similar to that one. Cept ours didn't have the bottles and had a PC fan to remove hotspots.

[Scales Zoo]

Jeff, it seems you aren't sure about python eggs in that incubator, why is that?

Ryan

[Vanan]

Ryan, it seems that you aren't sure about Jeff being sure about python eggs in that incubator. Why is that? ;)

[Jeff_Favelle]

'Cause you'll be back to playing the moisture game with the substrate (perlite or vermiculite). That's why I switched to no-substrate 7 years ago.

[NiagaraReptiles]

Vanan,

Specifically in reference to Ackie eggs, that system would make for way too much humidity for one, and also create several opportunites for air presssure problems/changes.......small monitor eggs really don't have much forgiveness in that department.

Just my opinion though......

[JDouglas]

I think you'd see a lot of full term dead in egg with that system, but that is just my opinion

I was only joking about incubating monitors. LOL

While designing this incubator I used several ideas from others who have successfully hatched carpet eggs. If anyone is wondering about the success of the no substrate egg chamber I got the idea from this website and he had a 100% hatch rate. After clicking on the link click on Articles and then click on Carpet Python Incubation Techniques.
http://www.morelia.ca/


I don't see any reason the incubator wouldn't work for carpets. Its temp is steady and humidity is 100%. If you have any insight let me know.
No one will no for sure if this incubator will work for carpet eggs until it is successfully used with a clutch of eggs. I'll keep you posted.

[Vanan]

Ok so not good for monitors cos too much humidity. So I presume you'd use no water bottles, just a fan (to help keep humidity low) and a dryer substrate?

So it would be good for pythons cos the amount of humidity in it would be ok?

Getting confused here. Maybe if everyone showed what works for them regarding each herp. A least a brief description. :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

If the pop bottles are sealed, exactly how would the humidity be too high again??

[JDouglas]

Jeff is right. If the pop bottles are sealed they have no affect on humidity. Also adding a fan would not affect humidity either because the egg chamber has no holes. A fan would help with hot spots.

[NiagaraReptiles]

In my experience, fans suck........

I would possibly consider using a circulation fan if/when I build a walk in incubator, but until then no more fans for me!

Vanan - Monitor eggs don't follow a recipe very well. You have to figure out what they need in your conditions, though for the most part excessive humidity will result in full term deaths. Any standing water in a relatively sealed incubator will surely be too much for Ackie eggs.

Jeff - I kinda like the idea of the bottled water for volume, but the center chamber pictured is to what I was referring as a problem for monitor eggs.

Also, an egg chamber with no holes would spell disaster for Varanid eggs.

Again, let's keep in mind that I have absolutely no experience with Python eggs and my comments are limited to my experiences with monitors, geckos, and tortoises.

:)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I would take your advice for monitor eggs ANY DAY over what my pea-brain thinks or "knows". For sure.

[Vanan]

Thanks all, for this enlightening thread.

So again, if there were holes to prevent buildup of water in the egg chamber, it would be an ok incubator for monitors? And Jeff, you think that setup would be perfect for pythons? Thanks in advance guys!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Not sure about Python eggs. Its different from the way I do it, but by no means any worse (or better). Time will tell.

I use 100% humidity by warming water and I suspend the eggs without a substrate. That's my method. Not to say that this won't work, I'm just not sure, that's all.

[Vanan]

Thanks Jeff. :)

[JDouglas]

Jeff heats water with an aquarium heater in the bottom of his incubator to attain 100% humidity in the entire incubator.
In my incubator 100% humidity is attained only inside the egg chamber. One inch of water is placed in the bottom and the chamber is sealed. This is how it was done on the website I posted ealier and he had a 100% hatch rate. Really the only thing different about my setup from this person is the water bottles. I hope they are an improvement but as Jeff said only time will tell.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I can almost guarantee you that the pop bottles WILL be an improvement!! They will act as a heat sink and will moderate temperatures. For sure.

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by Vanan

So again, if there were holes to prevent buildup of water in the egg chamber, it would be an ok incubator for monitors?


Some things yiou just have to experience. Give it a whirl and see what happens. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't live where you do, and you're the one watching your eggs ;)

Just a tip: If you're going to try something, try to stick with it through the duration if it looks good or bad......the more variables you change or play with only give you that many more things to guess at in the end, whether things end up good or bad.

Best wishes Vanan,

[MouseKilla]

There's something that isn't right here... You said that there's what, 9 pop bottles filled with water in there? Well what I can't understand is what you did with all of that Mountain Dew. I mean no one could actually drink all of that could they? EW! LOL! Hell of a set up though. Would it be rude to ask what it would cost to build one like it assuming you had to start from scratch? Ballpark numbers would satisfy my curiosity.

[JDouglas]

LOL! My wife drank most of the mountain dew. Although I did drink some after realizing i wanted to use those bottles and she wasn't drinking fast enough! Here is a list of the cost in American dollars.

Cooler = $15
Heat tape & cord = $5
2 Bricks = Free (taken from neighbors yard he he)
1 Sheet of egg crate $5
Plastic Tub = $3
2 ft by 4 ft plexiglass = $15
Mt Dew bottles = Free (my wife drinks it otherwise its around $15)
ESU Thermostat = $30
Digital Thermometer = $10

Approximate total is about $85 but most of the stuff I had already. (except plexiglass and eggcrate)

I can't wait to give it a try! My Irian Jaya Carpet Pyhons are in tip top shape and hopefully will produce this year!

[JDouglas]

OK Here is the REAL test...

5 Irian Jaya Carpet Python Eggs
http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiles/stuff/23.JPG

[Jeff_Favelle]

Awesome bro! Those thing look like Ball or Retic eggs!!! Nice job! :D

[JDouglas]

Thanks Jeff and good luck to you as well!

[Stockwell]

Jeremy, I think you've done a fine job on that and I don't see any technical flaws, or any conceptual errors.
Adding the sealed pop bottles is a great idea but it's probably not necessary in an insulated cooler, but the more mass in any incubator, the more stable the temperature, because it takes time to heat and cool all that water. In conventional setups with vermiculite as an egg medium, I always like to use deep containers with 3 or 4 inches of medium. It accomplishes the same thing. The only disadvantage is that it will take quite some time to attain setpoint, and then to change it..but that should be no problem
And while I am a very big advocate of using low CFM fans for ciculation, this is only to prevent hot spots and thermal layering, but incubators that use heat tape, don't really have hot spots, and you certainly wont with all those water bottles. And thermal layering is a problem primarily with much larger incubators , especially tall ones, so a fan would offer you little in that much volume.
I think your unit will perform just fine!!!

I'm going to try the "no egg medium" technique myself this year.
Last year I hatched some eggs on marbles just for a hoot. There's probably as many ways to hatch eggs as there are inventive minds.
Nice job

[JDouglas]

Well my eggs hatched over the weekend so the incubator did work. I only had four eggs to work with and all of them hatched. If I were to use this incubator again there is only one thing I would change.

I would use a better thermostat. During the first 6 weeks of incubation my room temp was very consistent at 80F and the incubator never budged from 88.0F. Then at about six weeks the temps in my room spiked to 86F on an unseasonably warm day of 85F outside. This spike in room temp caused the incubator temp to increase from 88F to 89.4F. I was concerned and turned down the incubator two degrees. When the outside temps dropped back to normal my room temp also dropped back to 80F. This caused the incubation temp to drop down to 86.0F. I left it at this temp because I was afraid there would be another warm day. I beleive this lower temp for a couple weeks caused the extended hatching time of 62 days.
I am unsure of the best way to overcome this problem other than using a better thermostat.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiles/stuff/5.JPG

[Jeff_Favelle]

89.4F is exactly what I incubate all my python eggs at! I would have just left it!

[JDouglas]

I actually thought to myself that they would be fine because that is the temp that Favelle uses but was afraid the temp may continue to go up. So I went with what I thought would be the safer route and turned them down a smidge. I should have left it because then I wouldn't have had to wait so long. It was terrible!

[nicola_boulton]

wicked pic, u can actually see the egg toothm, amazing. Congrats on ur new babies JDouglas!

[Stockwell]

Jaramy, nice job! I knew it would work.
In regards to your fluctuating temps, I recommend always putting incubators in the basement(if you have one) or in a room that is most likely to be 10 degrees or more below your setpoint.
I suspect your thermostat didn't malfunction. One must consider the phenomenon referred to as "over shoot".
I suspect your temp spikes were caused by overshoot.

Overshoot occurs as the combined result of the wattage of the heat source versus the differential of the thermostat, and the ambient temperature.
The cycle rate, sensitivity or "dead band" of any thermostat is also referred to as the "differential"
The differential is the temperature change between switching off and on. The tighter the differential the less overshoot you'll have.
Most home thermostats have a 3 or 4 degree differential which is terrible but saves wear and tear on the furnace.

As any T stat cycles between on and off, there is a period of
time where the temp still continues to rise even after the T stat has switched off, and current flow has ceased.
This is the result of thermal inertia, or heat which is still present in the heater, which will be emited even after its switched off.

If your room ambient increases, you really require less watts to achieve the same setpoint.
Given the T stat diffential is fixed this means the overshoot will become greater as the outside ambient gets closer to the setpoint.
To help eliminate this:
1.
Select a T stat with the smallest possible differential.(Try a hovabator wafter Tstat)
2. Use an electronic controller with proportional control(this phases back, or "dims" the AC which provides tighter control than simple off/on control
3.
Make sure your heater isn't more watts than is necessary, for the volume of your incubator. I use a period of 20 minutes to reach setpoint from 72F room temp as a basic guideline. This equates to about 5 to 10 watts per cubic feet of incubator volume. The lower figure for insulated boxes(like yours) the higher figure for non insulated wooden boxes with sliding plexi doors(my designs)

4.Try to position the incubator in an ambient at least 10 degrees lower than your setpoint

[crocdoc]

Good advice, Stockwell.

One thing you may want to add to that list is to position the thermostat probe (if you are using a thermostat with a probe) in the incubator, not in the egg box itself.

I've seen people put their probes next to the eggs. If there is a fair amount of incubation medium in the egg boxes, the egg boxes have a fair bit of thermal lag, or inertia. When the heat source heats up the incubator, it takes a while for this effect to be sensed by the thermostat probe, so by the time it switches off the heat source the temperature in the incubator is far greater than you'd want it to be. In a well insulated incubator, there is nowhere for this heat to go so it will eventually bring the egg box to the same level, cooking the eggs.

[Stockwell]

Yup Crocdoc.. exactly...I Agree completely
Its OK to put a therMOMETER next to the eggs but never the thermoSTAT, or control sensor.
You should always control on the media that is capable on changing temps the fastest and that is the component with the least mass, ie the air mass in the incubator enclosure.
If you control on the quickly changing air temp you can avoid alot of the overshoot from ever influencing the egg box, which has much more mass and takes much longer to heat up and cool down.

I usually position my sensor, which is usually a thermistor in my circuit, on the back wall, just slightly elevated off the wood like so. I use stick on coat hooks and simply drill through them and attach the controller sensor, and this offers protection to the probe which is on the back of the hook
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/504/18011590Incubators03inprogress-med.jpg

[crocdoc]

My thermostat and thermometer probes are in the centre as well, held there by plastic clips designed to hold electrical cords in place.

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Apr/2004458760107996265600.jpg


Now I have to find a small, low wattage fan that can be run 24/7/365 on 240v without overheating the incubator!

[JDouglas]

Great info guys! Thanks!
The thermostat I used was an ESU thermostat and it is accurate to +/- 1.0F. So if it is set at 88F it can fluctuate from 87F to 89F. That is a wide overshoot. I overcame this by taping the thermostat sensor probe directly to the heat tape. This way the heat tape would flucatuate 2 degrees but the air temps were constant limiting overshoot. This kept the air temp in the egg chamber at a constant temp of 88.0F.
My room is heated to 80F but on that one hot day it got to 86F and raised the incubator temp 1.4F and I think Stockwell's explained it perfectly. The amount of overshoot is directly related to how close the room temp is to the set point. The closer the room temp is to set point the greater the overshoot. With only a 2.0F difference between the set point and the room temp overshoot was 1.4F.

Next year if I use this themostat again I will move the incubator out of the snake room and into a room in my house that will be around 70F. I will also use a Hovabator wafer thermostat which I beleive are accurate to +/- 0.5F.



Thanks again for the info!

[Stockwell]

crocdoc, I'm not sure you have Newark over there but they have 230volt fans in the same Make and series as the ones I use
You might be able to get one mailed to you.

Here's a link to what I use from another post(scroll down)
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42832&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[crocdoc]

Thanks, Stockwell. I actually had copied and pasted that post as a reminder to myself to look up that fan company when I get a chance, probably on the weekend. I hadn't rushed on it as I figured they'd only deal in 120v fans, but if they do higher voltage units I'll have to check them out.