Just starting out q's

[sunset]

I am wanting to start breeding some rats, just for my own personal use, not sale, so it will be smaller scale. I was thinking of two, maybe three females, and one or two males (would one be ok?) I do not want to spend $80 on a cage from the pet store, and as I was browsing the threads, I noticed people using what looked like rubbermaid bins, or something similar. Could someone please help me with what size I would need, and how many. I read a couple of web pages on breeding, and they talked about seperating the males and females after breeding, could two pregnant females be kept together? With babies? I read about the gestation period, nursing period, etc, I have had pet rats in the past, so I know some of the basics. I have two empty 10 gallon tanks I could use to house weanlings. I have two burms, a ball, and a hognose that eat rodents, my garter will only eat worms. (I have tried everything in the book, wont touch rodents:mad: ) As the burms get bigger, I will start breeding bummies. But thats later. Any help would be greatly appreciated, sorry this post is so long, I ramble.

[reverendsterlin]

I've been with snakes for a lot of years. I have yet to find that a 1-2 time a year frozen order cost any more than raising/housing my own, dealing with feeding/watering, litter and cleaning time ever did and usually much less. I do have a collection large enough that providing enough feeders(100+@month) even at a smaller level wasn't cost effective. I average about $0.62USD per feeder with most being jumbo adult mice, figure if you can raise one mouse to over 35 grams for that cost.

[sunset]

It might just be where I am, but I cannot find a jumbo rat under like $4.00. I can get them for I think $3.50, but I have to buy like 200 or more or something like that. If you know someone that can get me jumbos for under $1.00, please, let me know.

[Jayson]

I would use a giant cat litter pan. they are about 8-10$ and make a lid from hardware cloth and wood frame. These are good because the hight walls doesnt allow as much shavings and mess to spill out on the floor. This is good for 1.3 and yes all rats male included can be left in at all times. Rats are very good parents and will share responability (usually). I remove babies at three weeks of age to the day.

[mykee]

Well, to feed 4 snakes, I would get two colonies of 1.3 (one male, three females) going. I house my 1.3 colonies in an enclosure that is 18x12. I don't breed my females until they are 250g, and my males at 200g. My females have on average 10-16 babies per litter. With 6 females, you should be able to produce anywhere between 50-75 rats a month. That should be more than enough for what you're feeding.

[sunset]

A cat litter pan would work, for all four? I am glad I don't listen to people at the pet store. Thats cool that they can all be housed together, that makes it much easier. What would you reccomend as an inexpensive bedding? Is it cedar that is toxic? I don't even know if I will need to breed all year since they breed so much, I may want to consider getting another freezer for in the garage... Thanks for the info folks, if there is anything else you think I should know, please, feel free.
Mykee, thats 18x12 inches? That sounds easy enough. All the sites I could find were about breeding for pets, and they say feeders are 'unethical', and they all reccomended these huge enclosures with wheels and whatnot.

[mykee]

Sunset, remember, you're breeding rats as feeders, not pets. Give them enough room to move around, but they don't need to be in rat paradise. Ultimately, they will be eaten by a snake, or frozen. I give them enough room so that they're not cramped, but ideally, yo want your rats to be chunky, not super active, a wheel is a bad idea. I use pine, but I have all of my racks with proper ventilation, as the phenyls (sp?) from the bedding is harmful if not ventilated properly.

[sunset]

Oh, I know theyre feeders. I'm just sayin, thats what all those sites said, they were like ratluvies.com or some shyte. I have no prob killing rats and mice, they are vermin, they destroy crops, and spread disease, etc. The US spends big $$$ exterminating them every year. I actually had to buy a few mice from petsmart once, and they totally knew what I was up to, because they told me like 20 times, "THEYRE NOT TO BE USED FOR FEEDERS!!" I was like, no, really, I just want to keep 6 mice as pets, and not buy any supplies. Hehe. Since when did mice get rights? But they will sell feeder goldfish.:rolleyes:

[mykee]

Yes, but just because they are feeder rodents, doesn't mean you still should not respect them as living creatures. They still need to be provided shelter, food and water. Food or no food, no animal deserves to live in substandard conditions because it's going to die on Friday. The better you keep your feeders, the better food you feed to your feeders, the better food item they'll make for your snakes.

[sunset]

Don't get me wrong, I would never condone the abuse/mistreatment of an animal, hell, more than half of my animals were rescued from abusive homes, but I think frilly curtains, and 5 course meals for a rat is a bit much. And I just find it funny that petsmart is so opposed to feeder mice, but not feeder crickets and goldfish.

[jwsporty]

I actually had to buy a few mice from petsmart once, and they totally knew what I was up to, because they told me like 20 times, "THEYRE NOT TO BE USED FOR FEEDERS!!"

This is the exact reason why I don't spend a single cent at their store now..somebody should tell that company to get off their soapbox.

[sunset]

They made me fill out this form that said I would take care, and give them a loving hom, blah blah... The only reason I went there was that I had just rescued my ball python, and he was waay under weight, and all the decent shops were closed, (it was like 8:30) and he needed to eat ASAP. A tail fell off one of them when he ate it, I wanted to mail it to them with the form I filled out. I avoid going there whenever possible.

[Linds]

Breeding feeders can be costly or cost-effective, depending on which way you do it. Do no get your supplies from a pet store. You will end up spending 10x more than you should. I buy my shavings at $4 CDN for a 3.5 cubic foot bag (compressed) at the local co-op. I just use low quality dog food for feed. I find this works very well. I've also used feeder breeding zoo diet (<a href="http://www.mazuri.com">Mazuri</a>) but have had better results with the dog food. As Mykee mentioned, feeders do not require the excercise that pets do, therefore they use less space. I run my colonies of 1.3 in the giant kitty litter pans. This size wouldn't be adequate for one pet rat, but works fine for a large feeder group. Less excercise = beefier rats. Removing the males is a bad idea. Just leave the colony in tact so the males can reimpregnate the females soon after the give birth. If you seperate them, you will have to wait for the females litter to be weaned before you can reintroduce the male, then you will have to wait for gestation, when had you left the male in, she would be close to birth again. 4 mouths to feed is borderline. You may not be saving money by raising them, but you will most certainly have full quality control over what your snakes are eating. As for tails falling off when they are eaten, it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of rodents, its fairly common. Usually with f/t items, but it does happen with f/k or even live.