View Full Version : Baby Rat Massacre!!
Today, I came home from work and found that one of my Rats had just produced a litter. I had another that is still nursing her litter (they're about 2.5 weeks old). I remember reading, on this site, that it is ok to put nursing moms together, as they will share the duties. I should note that the rats had not met before (I am assuming this is where my mistake lies), as I bought the one before with babies from the store. The mom today was mine and paired with my male.
I decided to put the new mom and the new litter, with the other nursing rat.
BAD news.
I checked in an hour later; it was like a horror movie (only way littler). They were ripped to shreds.
Does any one have any idea which rat would have done this? Why?
Oh well, lesson learned...Big time.
Nic
Rats will sometimes fight over babies.
Yup. Live and learn from that one. Cannabilism is a common result when any new member/s are introduced to a colony that already has babies in it. Were both litters ripped to shreds or was it just the new one? Fathers may also eat babies if they are introduced because they aren't his :rolleyes: They aren't very smart though in that respect, you can put a preggo female thats ready to drop in with a male and as long as the babies are born while he's around, he will think they are his ;)
No, the other litter is pretty big; starting to walk around etc. will this happen again if I make sure all the rats have met? I have a 1.4 colony in 3 separate enclosures. I was attempting to start a maturnity ward, so that the nursing moms could have some time away from poppa rat and put on some pounds after giving birth. I have one girl in with the guy, and another enclosure has a female that is little, so I wanted her to grow for a bit.
Which rat is, most likely, the one who slaughtered the pinkies? Is this considered abnormal or is it expected when I make this kind of mistake?
Thanx,
Nic.
you want your rats to put on pounds they will be huge!lol
vanderkm
10-17-03, 08:52 AM
The most efficient production with rats in our experience (many years ago) is to set up the 1.4 colony permanently - introduce them all when there are no babies and leave all females with the male so they are bred continuously. They are very productive animals and will give high weaning weight babies even when pregnant with the next litter. Our females never lost weight from having multiple litters in a row as long as they had lots of nutritious food and free choice water. It amazed me how productive they were and the females never seemed to need a rest. Rats are more tolerant of new introductions and disruptions to the colony than mice are, but you likely don't need to move them around to give them a break.
mary v.
jwsporty
10-20-03, 04:36 AM
Agreed Mary, its a waste of time to be moving the nursing mother out of the colony. Keep each group together Nic
Frithrah82
10-20-03, 08:15 AM
its such a shame to read the posts on this site about breeding rats for feeder purposes... I understand it and support it, but you people care so much about your snakes, I dont see how you can be so inhumane with your rats. Females may not seem like they need a break, but they do, would you want to be carrying babies constantly? NO! Why force something that is as intelligent and potentially loving into such a harsh life. Do you enjoy being cruel overlords? I understand that some of you might even have relationships with your rats so maybe you think that makes it ok, but it just isn't right. I know you won't change because I'm making a fuss, but I can at least try. I don't understand why it is so hard for you people to understand that males shouldn't be left with females, its not like they help at all... Why can't you just keep a bunch of pairs of females and rotate one male through so that they get some kind of break in between, you'll always have a litter if you plan it right and its more morally sound. Why is it so hard to care about rats in the same way you care about your herps? Having babies constantly is physically and mentally draining on any animal, why don't you care?
mark129er
10-20-03, 08:35 AM
"Do you enjoy being cruel overlords"
Nice, abit melodramatic but nice. I highly doubt anybody on this site mistreats any of their animals reptile or otherwise. It is a fact of life taht some of us breed feeders for our herps, so what. The pet stores or breeders do exactly the same thing. Granted that doesn't make it right but for the love of pete calm down.
jwsporty
10-20-03, 01:42 PM
Frithrah82,
Let me see if I got this right. You landed on a forum that deals with issues associated to obtaining the highest efficiency in food production for our beloved reptiles. You then brand everyone as "cruel overlords", morally unsound and that we don't care? Hmmm.
Well let me see. My rats are in colonies of 1 male and 3 females. They are in clean and very decent living conditions, get a broad spectrum of fruits, veggies, along with their staple diets. Some, I would even consider to be pets that do enjoy handling on a regular basis. And yes I feel sad when one passes on. But I keep it in perspective. I would say I keep my rodents better then alot of people keep their cats and dogs.
Never have I ever had all my females in one colony, pregnant at the same time, and therefore I consider this to be a natural cycling of the male.
We have chosen to keep herps which in turn consume rodents. This comes with the territory and is a major expense in maintaining the herps in top condition. Rats and mice take their place in the food chain. And that will not change.
So if you chose to post your third post feel free, otherwise may I suggest a more appropriate website?
How about bunnyhuggers.com
"Do you enjoy being cruel overlords?" How did you know my rats called me that? lol...
Does bunnyhuggers have advice on establishing breading colonies? My snakes might need to eat those one day....
jadegrasse
10-21-03, 08:54 AM
Nice... All my rodents are well cared for and are kept in clean, well vetilated cages. I breed about 1000 rodents a month for my own use. 1.3 or 1.4 seems to be the best ratio. I keeps them all together all the time(as they do in nature). Females can get pregnate a few days after giving birth (as they do in nature). In the wild the females would have leave the babies to forage for food and return so I don't think that 'giving them a break' would help but could be very stressfull on the mothers trying to get back to their young.
I remove all the babies except 6 per female and leave those until I need them or they mature.
vanderkm
10-21-03, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Frithrah82
I dont see how you can be so inhumane with your rats. Females may not seem like they need a break, but they do, would you want to be carrying babies constantly? NO! Why force something that is as intelligent and potentially loving into such a harsh life. Do you enjoy being cruel overlords?
males shouldn't be left with females, its not like they help at all... , why don't you care?
I take issue with two comments you made. Firstly, whether or not I would want to be carrying babies constantly has no bearing on what a rat might want. In my opinion, you are making the classic error of anthropomorphism - you assume just because it may be what a human wants, it is what an animal will want. That error in judgement would deny a rat the essence of its rat nature. They are not human - their drives are not the same as ours.
You might want to consider that rats have an extremely powerful drive to reproduce, balanced with their drives for food, comfort and social interaction. I suggest that you might be causing more frustration for a rat by denying it the opportunity to be bred as often as possible and maximize the number of offspring it can produce. Would you deny such an intelligent and nurturing animal the opporunity to find it's own fulfillment? When provided with abundant, nutritious food and a stable, comfortable environment, I have found rats to maintain body condition, develop strong social relationships within their group and live long, healthy lives. They don't seem to benefit from disruptions to their social groups.
Secondly, your comment that the males do not help at all with care of the offspring leads me to believe that you have not observed rat social groups to any extent. While they don't nurse the young, males provide body heat to young pups, bring food to the nest box for weanlings and provide social contact, discipline and general nurturing that is critical in a social species such as rats. The adult male, as well as young adult offspring, both male and female, provide incredible support to nursing females and younger siblings.
Yet, from your moral high ground, you would deny these animals some of the very things that may make their life more satisfying? I suggest you examine your slanted perception before you judge those of us who breed feeders -
mary v.
jadegrasse
10-22-03, 07:25 AM
Well said Mary. Better than I could have. Out of all the animals I own, I like to sit and watch my rats the most. Sounds strange I know but have you ever watched juvy rats play? As playfull as kittins! Or adult rats when they are working out a dispute? Sound odd and hard to believe but if two rats get in a tizzy over food or a certain spot to keep a litter, they have little interaction that is almost human in nature. Sure there is no talking, but you try working out a problem with someone without talking or writing and I'm sure you could not do a better job. Out of all the rodents, rats are the most intelegent and social I have seen and imposing our ways on them seems degrading.
Alain
Well this is very interesting.
If we are to look at the lets be natural aspect and not treat the rats like an assembly line etc and stop being cruel whatevers.
Read about the Rats life in the natural wild.
They are constantly reproducing it is not uncommon in the wild they have a litter in the belly while nursing another. The rat also has to scavenge for food/housing and fight off predators.
The DIFFERENCE is when we do it the food is there/the housing is clean and there is no predators to fight except us and we definately make up for it in the long run.
Rats are semi maternal to the point of once the pup is off the breast get out of my face. So I am not too worried about hurting the rats feelings in that respect.
We cycle our male with our females only because it is gives us more females per bin. So for one week there is 5 rats in a bin instead of 4. This way it is more productive instead of keeping 1 male and 3 females in a bin.
Christina
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