The Great lighting Debate (long)

[WALTER]

Now I am no expert on reptile lighting but after reading thousands of posts about lighting on different forums nothing has been resolved about the hundreds of questions on lighting. Many on the forums claim they do not use “high end UV lights”
I have even come up with many new ones and there are no answers yet and no major research being done to prove them wrong or right. SO this is now placed on the keepers and breeders.
I am going to point out a few observations and please remember to keep a very open mind on this I am not trying to have a big fight here.
Lets start off say 10-15 yrs ago. We had no UV lighting or we were just starting to use it. Now we had big aquariums that we kept the reptiles in, a heat light, screen top and a heat rock. Now most aquariums are 24” or more high. We had aluminum screen tops. Most reptiles lived a long life and grew with no problems. Did we change our bulbs every six months like we are told to today? Yes there were problems with some as there is today. Now we know today that aluminum screen tops will dissipate 30% of the UV. Any thing past 12” away from the bulb is just light, no UV. So how did these reptiles do it??
It is also said Quote Reptiles USA 2000”In order to equal just one day’s exposure in the wild, a captive iguana would have to lay under one of the best reptile lamps eight hours a day, for almost 25 days!” It is also said that (can’t find it yet to quote) 5 min of natural sunlight is equal to 22 hours of UV lighting. So how much are the reptiles really getting?
Another point is why are some reptiles are pushed more on having UV then others? Many geckos don’t need UV but others do. Cresteds and leopards don’t? Pre-hensile tailed skinks don’t. Many monitors and snakes. Many of the reptiles that are high in the canopies, one would think they should have UV in captivity, Why not the ETB or GTP or other reptiles that live in the canopies. Many of these reptiles spend a great deal of hiding from predators, cloud cover and so on. So how much do they really get?
Talk to many of the huge breeders around the world and many do not use UV anymore but feed a better diet with supplements. I myself have raised many different species without UV and they are fine today with no health problems. Another question that can arise is the color of the light. Why do we use red when many lizards can see that color spectrum? It would be like having red lights in our house, it will one day drive us crazy. Many of the lights change the colors of the reptiles food, so many do not recognize it as food, how healthy is this?
Sorry about all the rambling just some thoughts and I know I am jumping all over the place. So it quick Why do some need it and others don’t, even if they are from the same region? Why not some of the arboreal reptiles that spend a great deal of time in the canopies? Some insect eaters do and others don’t, nocturnal or not? Beneficial yes, needed???????

[eyespy]

I've never yet seen a healthy bearded dragon achieve an age of greater than 7 years that did not have UV exposure. I've assisted at the necropsies of thousands who were fed D3 supplements in place of UV exposure who didn't make it to their fifth year. The stats for igs are even worse, many don't live to be 3.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ask Frank about UV light at varanus.net. He'll school you on it.

And being high up in a canopy does not mean you are in direct sunlight. Tropical canopies can be very very lush and no much light gets through.

And just because you live in UV light, does not mean you require it. Many many reptiles use the sun's rays as a HEAT source and a heat source alone. The UV part is irrelevant.

[V.hb]

iguanas are often fed improperly, and not the proper vitamins.... being fed fruits etc cause their calcium to be broken down from to much phosphorus, alot of beardies end up in the same boat.. not being fed properly. I personally feel diet has alooooot more to do with health then some cheap pet store uv bulb.

[Katt]

If I can afford it and it helps, why not do it?

[eyespy]

I've assisted at over 300 hepatic lobectomies on green iguanas to remove deposits of D3 from the liver before toxicity progresses too far. Dietary sources of D3 are worse than useless for herbivores, they are quite damaging as herbivores lack the enzymes needed to process dietary D3. They often have very brittle bones as well since the D3 seldom makes it to the bloodstram in any significant quantity.

[Jeff_Favelle]

If I can afford it and it helps, why not do it?

Well that's the question we're trying to answer, LOL! DOES it help? THAT is the very question.

[Katt]

Jeff:
Well that's the question we're trying to answer, LOL! DOES it help? THAT is the very question.

Walter:
Beneficial yes, needed???????

I thought the question was if it was needed.

[Jeff_Favelle]

So it is fact that its beneficial? Wow. News to me.

[eyespy]

The benefit depends on the animal. Frogs have higher rates of birth defects when exposed to UV, well-scaled animals like snakes and monitors don't really get UV to penetrate to the bloodstream where it can do its magic. But basking species like tortoises, iguanids and agamids really do need it.

[WALTER]

This was just my opinion about being beneficial but not 100% convinced if it is needed in most reptiles. Yes some should have it but as Jeff pointed out how much light gets threw the thick canopies? Also the new UV bulbs (power sun ect...) Have lots more UV then the conventional UV tubes but many reports say they have to much UV and can be harmful to the reptiles eyes. but there is still nothing as bright as natural light.
Another quote from Tortoise Trust Web- Understanding Reptile lighting Systems. " One keeper found that in order to provide a satisfactory level of lighting for a 10' X 5' indoor enclosure eighteen 48" 40W full spectrum fittings were required.
If this is true many of our cages are very dimly lit but many of the reptiles seem to do fine.
There are many questions that are needing answers and every post is bringing up more. I'm not asking one question I am asking for updated proof on the debate that has been going on for years.Plus the best proof out there is from the keepers them selfs. I am also looking for more proof on different reptile besides the iguana, that argument is still going, lol.

[Linds]

Originally posted by V.hb
I personally feel diet has alooooot more to do with health then some cheap pet store uv bulb.

Couldn't agree more. My ig developed MBD as a baby due to the fact that there wasn't a great deal of information on them (we were even in contact with the Buffalo Zoo during this time for assistance). She was fed a diet of romaine lettuce, shredded carrots, and dog food, supplemented with reptile vitamins (not a cal/d3 supplement). No wonder she got sick! I balme it 100% on diet though. She has never been provided with artificial UVB lighting and her diet was corrected. She is now going on 20 years old and still full of beans :D She does receive the suns rays whenever weather permits in the summer however. I personally won't waste a dime on those bulbs. As Walter mentioned, they are incredibly weak in comparison to the animals actual natural UV requirements. I would rate them as pretty well insignificant in most cases. My animals get their supplements in the winter to compensate for the lack of sun, and then the guys with higher requirements go outside in the summer. So I cannot say that all mine are completely without sun, but there are many people that have indeed sucessfully kept and bred basking animals for generations without lighting, such as the Iguana Zoo in Europe. Of course natural UV is beneficial to animals (except those that live in the great depths of the sea :p ), however I do not believe those bulbs pet stores try to pawn off are worth much at all. Just my thoughts on the matter :)

[WALTER]

Sorry another quote. Frank from Varanus.net
There is no available information regarding the benefits or drawbacks of providing UV lighting for monitors. Most lights available that produce UVA or UVB produce minuscule amounts of these rays. I have raised monitors with both UVA and UVB and some without UVA and UVB lighting and have not been able to determine any differences. If you want to provide this type of lighting go ahead but it is not necessary.

[Linds]

Originally posted by WALTER
I am also looking for more proof on different reptile besides the iguana, that argument is still going, lol.

Ok... I don't have any personal proof as most of my animals are low requirement animals. However what about all those ancient tortoises? Those UV bulbs haven't been around half as long as they have, and they cannot be housed outdoors all year round in many places they have been kept. I know that probably isn't the best example, and doesn't do much in the way of a good discussion, but it was just something that came to my mind that I thought was worthwhile enough to throw out there. Maybe someone can elaborate on it :)

[WALTER]

Hey that was a great example. This is the kind stuff that I find very interesting and myself never thought of the great turtles and tortoises. Now the gears are turning even more. Thanks Linds.

[J-Man]

I'm reading this care sheet on Iguanas... and it says using a uv light is essentially useless.... well, here's the link. check out for yourself. http://my.pclink.com/~dkelley/igcare.htm#lig

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well if a website that has a GWAR tribute link on it says that iguanas need light then it MUST be right. :confused:

[WALTER]

RATFLMAO good one Jeff. GWAR !!!!!!!!!!! the lizard gods. Maybe thats why I like them???????

[J-Man]

I don't follow...

Don't worry, I'm not agreeing with that website. Just asking what's up with it.

[eyespy]

It's tough to evaluate UV lighting when a basking species has also had natural sunlight exposure. Vitamin D can be stored for up to 2 years so they can easily get through the cold months with minimal or no UV lighting as long as they get sunlight in the warmer months. Another thing to consider is that most reptiles have enough calcium and vitamin D in their eggs to last them for 2-6 months before they develop MBD symptoms. Lots of breeders who say they've never had any problems not exposing their hatchlings to UVB don't realize that most of the hatchlings are long out of their care before MBD sets in.

The general rule of thumb is if a reptile develops MBD before it's 6 months old, test and treat the mother as well as the offspring. She didn't have enough nutrients to put into her eggs.

I know the Philly Zoo started putting their Galapagos torts under UV lighting back in the late 1960s and they have had much better success with longevity, breeding, and disease resistance since. They always did keep them outdoors for about 7-8 months out of the year, but the lighting greatly increased the odds of hatchlings making it to their first birthday.

[eyespy]

Here's a turtle/tortoise based article on UV effects:

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/lighting.html