First Hot

[-WilleM-]

hey everybody,
I'm new here and I will introduce myself.
My name is Willem I'm 17 and I live in Belgium (Antwerp).
Now I logged in on this site for a big question,one that probably been asked many times.
I would like to start with hots over a few years,I asked many people what would be the ideal first hot.
Now what do you guys think?And why?
I was thinking about coppers or crotalus cerastes.
Cheerz
and thanx alot:)

[Gregg M]

Welcome to the forum Wille...... Coppers are a good choice for a first hot because they are somewhat calm, the venom is not particularly life threatening, they are very easy to care for, and they are one of the most beautiful hots around( aside from gaboons naturaly....LOL)....... But just like with any hot snake you should always practice safe handling methods because it could mean your A$$....... Now that I have answered you question, I have a few of my own for you........ Have you found an experianced keeper to help show you the ropes and the tricks of the trade???? Do you have experiance with snakes in general???? Why do you want to get into keeping hots????? Do you know all the risks assosiated with keeping venomous snakes????

[fatboy]

Gregg is right. Copper is the best first hot in my opinion too. They are gorgeous snakes and are pretty docile, but can still light your @$$ up. Antivenom is readily available for them here, might want to check into that in Belgium. I would suggest a medium sized specimen if you want to really learn venomous herpetoculture. Babies are too small to learn the diiferent handling techniques needed if you wanted to broaden your venomous collection.

[SCReptiles]

I will have to admit that I am ignorant the snakes of your country. In all cases the best first hot is the hot with the mildest venom that is native to where you are from. Coppers are the best for most of the US, but I am fairly certain no physician in Belgium has treated a copperhead envenomation. If there are no hots native to you, then I would go with the copper, but it will be up to you to have protocols and anti-venoms ready in case of an accident. You can not expect your local doctors to know what to do. Good luck!

[-WilleM-]

hey,
thanx for the replys,
Well I have been keeping snakes for 6years now.
I started with garter snakes,had an iguana iguana and also a python regius.Now I have corallus hortulanus,heterodon nasicus elaphe gutatta and lampropeltis triangulum sinaloae.
Why I want to keep hots?Well,I just think they are awsome.So beautifull yet so dangerous witch gives me a huge respect for this animals.Of all hots I like the Bitis species and the crotalus species the most.But I also know that this are nog animals to start with.
You also asked if I knew people who have hots.Well,I'm honest now,in belgium it's illegal to have hots,even do That wont stop me and all the other venomous snakes lovers.I have contact with a number of belgian hot keepers and also with dutch hot keepers(in the netherlands it's legal to keep hots for everybody).The people I know are very experienced and are willing to help me with my first snake.
I have never handled hots yet and I'm not planning to buy one before I really know everything about handling them,theoreticly as well as in reality.The reason why I don't have hots now is because my main target is to have everything as safe as posible!My meaning is to free handle the snake as less as nessesery.
Safety will always come number one!
The man I know that would help me with my first hot says that the copper is not a very good beginners snake(even do I read it is a good beginner) he says it grows large and can be very fast.So than I tought of the crotalus cerastes,witch is small and gives a warning when he would strike.They might be bad eaters but I know a breeder in belgium...
Antivenom is for some species available in belgium.With a non lethal snake they might get anti venom in the netherlands so normally if I would get bitten I'm sure I would survive...But it is my purpese that I would never get bitten.
Sorry or my bad english
Cheerz
Willem

[reverendsterlin]

there are any number of hots that are starters, boils down to none are safe lol. in your area some of the aboreals are more commonly for sale, as well as antivenin for them. The mildest "commonly kept" species will be best due to antivenin sources.

[BWSmith]

My meaning is to free handle the snake as less as nessesery
I am assuming that you mean "handle", not feehandle. Freehandling is not using handling equipment.

Rattlers do not always warn befor they strike so don't be fooled by that. Also C cerastes can be a nightmare to hook sometimes. I think it comes from their means of locomotion. I do not consider the size of a Copperhead to be excesive. A 2-3 foot snake (on average) is easier to work with in my opinion than a squirelly 12 incher. And yes, cerastes can be problem feeders, particularly WC ones prefer lizards as prey items. Force feeding a rattler is not fun. Coppers are generalists and once established are usually good feeders.

Glad to hear that you have experienced keepers around to show you the ropes.

[cobraman]

I think it is great that you have an interest in the field, and that you are taking your time to get into it safely, however I do not condone you or anyone breaking the laws of your area. If I understood correctly, you mentioned that venomous snakes are illegal to keep where you are. If (or when) you get bitten, you will have a two fold problem:1) surviving the bite, and 2)you risk getting arrested for having hots where they are illegal. Do what you want, but I will not condone the breaking of laws.
Blessings
Ray Hunter

[B-Rep]

Well said Cobraman...

Willie;

If it is illegal to keep hots where you are, please obey the laws. If you did infact decide to keep hots anyways, there could be severe problems. Suppose that you did get caught, and they arrested you and took away snake after you got bit...It would probably be a HUGE blow to the herp community..."Another hot keeper is bitten by a killer snake." The media can blow things right out of proportion.

[-WilleM-]

I understand and realise that IF I get bitten there will be alot of trouble.They guy that wants to help has been bitten twice and even now he still keeps hots...but the cops are on his heels.
I know that it is not wise in some way...But you also got to see it from my perspectif,I've just love snakes and most of them the hots and I just can't keep them.I'm 100% sure that if the goverment says next week or something that snakes are not legal in the US most of you guys would keep your hots..You know what I mean.The man I was talking about was bitten by a cobra and another hot.He survived both,the antivenom is never far away,it normally comes from the netherlands or germany,that takes time but with a non-deathly snake..you normally survive.
The hardest part about this is that the police will be waiting for you.You don't get in to gail for this,they take your snakes and you will have to pay alot of money..I can live with that,but I would hate the publicity around it!
The guy also has a deal with his docter that keeps it secret and will donate anti venom if or when he can...So with a snake as a copper you normaly won't get caught in belgium if you have the right contacts and docters and stuff...
Does anyone got a good care sheet on coppers?
I've read many things about them but they all are different..From dutch forums till venomousreptiles.org...so I don't realy know what I have to believe:confused:
:)

[shaggybill]

Hmmm...wow, I must say thats a good and fair question...

If it became illegal next week, would you guys still keep your hots? Not trying to stir up trouble, just askin outta curiousity.

[Mustangrde1]

It would be difficult in FL for it to become illegal with laws on the books . but states that have no laws it could happen. Laws are not easy to change. but making a new one with public outcry would be easy. as to me keeping them if it became illegal. I honestly dont know!!!

[BWSmith]

It would be difficult in FL for it to become illegal with laws on the books
They are trying as we speak bro. They are widdling away at the hot keepers in FL. They are trying to go by city and county rather than state.

[fatboy]

I personally would still keep. I love my vens and would pay the fines if I were caught. BW is GA trying to change the laws? I haven't heard anything but thought if FL was then GA might jump on the band wagon.

[BWSmith]

As far as I know, the only laws they are trying to change is giving us more rights to keep. Such as native nonvens if they are morphs. They are also trying to get native lizards and terrestrial turtles off the protected list so we can keep them. Oddly enough, the Rattlesnake Roundups are our saving grace for keeping hots. As long as they exist, they cannot ban the keeping of native vens in GA. Plus, it is a little known law in GA that we CAN keep them, so we do not get nearly as much fanfare as FL. That also means that they can slip it byus easier. *shrug* I won't be in GA long enough to see any new laws I think. It also helps that myself, Hester, Karl Betz, and Chris Harper offer ALOT of free displays and volunteer work for nature centers and the like. Many cannot afford the insurance to keep venomous on display and we get great turnouts on Snake Days. We actually have a few allies in GA.

[fatboy]

Cool. Where are you moving?

[BWSmith]

yet to be determined. Looking at a couple places.

[-WilleM-]

sorry to interupt...But does somebody got a good caresheet on the copper?Or wrote one themselves?
Cheerz

[BWSmith]

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/7

[-WilleM-]

thanx,But I already knew that one.:)

[skin78]

Willem where are you planning to buy your coppers??cheers NIek

[-WilleM-]

Well,I would like to have them next year.First of all I want that my parents support the things I do...With venomous snakes it is difficult,my mother likes them but my father hates them.So first I'll take care of that.But to answer at your question,I think I'll get them in a land were it's legal to keep and handle them,so probably in the netherlands.
You know any good breeders?
Cheerz

[cobraman]

Actually, Scott, As our club's legislative info gatherer, you no doubt know that Hillsbourough County (in FLORIDA) just made it illegal to keep venomous snakes in that entire county (Tampa, St. Pete. etc). What if the other forty something counties in FL do the same??? I was made to understand that the cause of this action may have been Russ' Black Mamba bite (but that may or may not be true). So it could happen anywahere.
Blessings
Ray

[BWSmith]

Since we get off topic of rights being taken away, be sure to read this
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27861

[Mustangrde1]

Brian I have to agree that by changing certain wordings or adding words to a law can create havoc, Fl venomous fee's were raised by simply adding a few words. However I have seen groups like this try this type of stunt many times to have it shot down upon the simplest lawsuit brought before appeals courts. 1 example is that of the harassment laws imposed for anyone violating a hunter / fisherman's rights to pursue their prey. We as a community do need to stand up to this type of outrages. I believe unfortunately that the only way this is going to happen to form one group such as THE NRA or Ducks Unlimited or the hundreds of other groups out there that have seen injustice to their hobbies and stood up and put up. By this I mean to say we as a Herp community be it Snakes, geckos, monitors, turtles, amphibians whatever your love is get together and form our own group and put fourth the money and donations for attorney's to fight for our rights and our voices to be heard. Unless we as a community are willing to do this and apply the political implications to our Senators, legislators, house reps our voices will fall on deaf ears. Our votes will get their attention for certain.

Unfortunately this is a double edge sword. We have to face the fact a large part of the population is afraid of reptiles and the more vocal we become the more we may loose. or the opposite may happen. I think many people know my position on voids and I have had to be very careful as to who I speak to legally about the laws I am trying to enact and I know I have had contact from groups who have very shady intentions about helping and I just tell them thanks but I have it under control.

This is a lot to think about but unless we are willing to put up then we need to shut up. I am not sure how to go about forming this type of nation group and unifying the herp community to one group but I sure the hell and willing to help anyway I can. if you or anyone has ideas lets talk you have my number as do some of the others on here. perhaps we can set up some sort of net meeting. Call me and lets talk.

[-WilleM-]

Sorry I say this,but it suprises me that so less people answer my question.I tought every of you hot freaks had written a care sheet for agkistrodon contortrix :p :D

[BWSmith]

How many do you need? One with all the right info should be enough.

[-WilleM-]

well all info is welcome...:)
thanx alot
Cheerz
Willem

[-WilleM-]

sombody?pics are allso welcome? :s
thanx
Willem

[snakegal12345]

yep copperheads are the best to start off