exploding mice

[lilyskip]

Lately, it seems like a good deal of the f/t mice I've been feeding to my bp have somehow opened up and started leaking during the thawing process. One of them entirely exploded. I don't microwave them...I heat up some water, and then put them (in ziploc bags) into the water and let them sit for about 15-20 minutes.

What am I doing wrong, or are they just bad frozen mice? Is it just that mice are not very hardy, and so are more likely to leak? Will I still have this problem when I get him on rats?

[mykee]

Personally, with the rodents that I've thawed, and I do it the same as you, I've NEVER had a rodent explode. I would definitely give a second look at your supplier. Doesn't sound healthy to me.

[honduranfreekk]

Mykee I hate to say it but I would have 2 disagrea with you some what lol I also have had this problem from time 2 time with the belly leaking and I buy all my rat,s from a very reputable breeder that feed,s all his stock nothing but the best.Out of about every 100 rat,s maybe 15 have done this???

[reptilesalonica]

i feed to my herps my own feeders that fed on the best food available. This is only happening when the feeders are overheated.
I warm them with a "hotter" heat pad. Those (very hot) from Zoo med-that eventualy, are unsuitable for herps :D
~Greg~

[Jayson]

I have 16 snakes and many feedings per month, I breed my own rats and have never had this happen before.
Mayby its freezer temps. or the length of time they were in the freezer or it also could be that the rats were found dead a day or more before freezing or somthing.
Im just guessing here.

Jason

[lilyskip]

hmmm, all of this sounds possible. The longest I've kept them in the freezer so far has been three weeks. Is it possible that i'm overheating them?

[reptilesalonica]

As i said before, it is possible...Don't you have a spare heat pad to warm them up before feed them?
All it takes is about 15 mins for pinkies, half an hour for hoppers and adult mice and about an hour for rats. Just touch their bellys. If mtehy are warm then they are ready. Never put them with their bellys on the heat pad, always with the back or side.
...my 2cnts :)
~Greg~

[Invictus]

I had that happen to me once. There was so much blood all over these mice, even our feeding machine corns wouldn't take 'em. It happens once in a while. Sometimes it's just that the mouse was whacked too hard, but didn't hemmorhage right away... but the thawing process causes it to happen.

[Lisa]

I've had it happen, i think it's the heat you thaw at. I like to get them really warm for the pythons, better feeding responce.

[BoAddict]

just for the record 15 outta 100 is 15 % i wouldnt call that a good rate maybe 1 - 5 % would be acceptable

[mikemcguire]

I had the same thing happen to me thawing a rat. I do believe it is the temperature difference. I thawed mine in warm water, i didnt thaw and then heat it in warm water so i dont know if that made a difference. But the same thing did happen to me.

[Linds]

Don't use anything hotter than hot tap water. Not only do you risk partially cooking the rat, but the higher the heat you thaw your prey in, the faster the cell walls break down. Also... do you refreeze your prey items? Refreezing causes cell structure to break down, then combined with heat you are sure to have an exploded rodent on your hands. In the zillions of rats I have thawed over the years, I have never had one explode. I have maybe 0.1% exploding rate on mice. The only thing that happens if the exterior of the tail may slip off when dangling it from tongs or the snake grabs it really hard. I would try lowering the heat you thaw at, and if you are refreezing your items, I would recommend discontinuing that practice ;)

[RepTylE]

I just thaw them at room temperature for an hour or two. Probably not the accepted method but it works for mice. Now that I am starting to use rats it might be a different story once I get to the larger sizes. Of course I would change the method accordingly.

[daver676]

Why don't you thaw them at room temp? Thats what I do. Never had a problem.

[lilyskip]

thanks all. i think my water is probably too hot. i never refreeze, but I do microwave the water before I pour it over the food. I'm trying with a rat this week, and I think I will just use warm tap water, so we'll see what happens. ::crossing fingers::

[MouseKilla]

I use hot tap water for fuzzies or smaller. Adult mice and bigger I put in a bowl, boil the kettle, pour the water in the bowl and then wait till the water has cooled enough so that it's just kind of warm but not hot. I've only had pinkies tear open on me and I think that's just because their skin is thin and breaks down easily.

[mykee]

I turn my tap on hot, fill the container with frozen rats in it, and then change the water whenever it gets cold. I have had ZERo rats explode on me. It seems that there must be something wrong with either the quality of th rats or the way they are being defrosted and heated. I'm going out on a limb here and saying that if you're doing it right, rats should never explode.

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by mykee
I'm going out on a limb here and saying that if you're doing it right, rats should never explode.

Haha--that was my impression, too. :D

[anders_240sx]

The best cause I can figure out..is that your bringing a frozen object into a warm or even hot water .... even room temp could be too drastic .... since their body is largely made up of water, when u freeze them, the water is then frozen.... when u place it in an environment with such a drastic temp difference (even 10 to 20 degrees) the moleucles expand so quickly that they break .... try this by taking an ice cube and placing it in hot water....it will more than likely instantly crack... this is expansion of molecuoles and air pockets traped inside .... however ..if you place an ice cube in cold water ...then slowly add warm water to it ...the gas and molecuoles will expand slower.... thus preventing explosion

[KingFfaj]

also water exspands when freezing, so maybe the mice skin is being streched as they are being frozen, then sudenly the solid parts are being exspanded in the hot water?

[Zoe]

When it comes to ice cubes, the ice expands or shrinks with temps. When you put an ice cube in hot water, the ouside of the cube is a different temperature than the inside. And since stuff contracts and expands with temperature changes, it means the inside is also a different SIZE than the outside, which causes internal stress. If the size/temp difference is enough, then the internal stress will cause the ice to crack (in the case of pliable stuff like metal, it will simply change shape to accomodate the change. but with brittle crystals, glass, ice, etc, its cracks).

With mice, their insides expand (steam, stomach fluids, etc), this happens quickly in a microwave so the inside gets heated nearly as quickly as the outside... which is why it won't happen (at such a scale) in hot water. But since the mouse is a closed structure (save the rectum, but the expansion is too fast to be accomodated by rectal discharge), the expading fluids and water have no where to go, so the mouse splits or explodes and the insides come out.

Zoe

oh,
the moleucles expand so quickly that they break Just want to clear things up, its not the molecules themselves that are exanding, really, it's the matter. The molecules in the matter distance themselves (or come closer together).

[lilyskip]

thanks, all! this has been really helpful.

[lilyskip]

hey guys---just wanted to let you know, I took all of your advice tonight, and no incidents...the mouse stayed whole the entire process. It was definitely my fault; I'm sure the water was too hot (this time, I used tap water). Thanks again!

[Slannesh]

Never had a problem with this myself, Mice or Rats i've always just thawed them in a ziplock bag in a large bowl of hot tap water.

As to the theory as to why ice cracks in hot or warm fluid, Anders, yer way off man :) Zoe pretty much hit it right on.

Rapid temperature changes in any direction cause stress on materials in a solid state of matter, some things bend some things break. Ice is one of the things that breaks. It's the rapid temperature and state change that do it not expanding air pockets. The same thing would happen to ice prepared in a vacuum

I can think of several reasons why mice explode, too much of a temp change too fast, thawing refrozen mice and possibly even thawing mice that weren't frozen soon after being euthanized.

[Doch]

I was having that problem briefly myself. The cause (as best as I figured) was because I was running water over top of the frozen rodents (in baggies) which caused their stomachs to split open. I don't know exactly how you've been handling them, but when they get frozen their skin seems to weaken. Maybe just try to be more gentle with them. My problem stopped as soon as I stopped treating them rough.