What's so bad about anthropomorphism?

[lilyskip]

Lately there have been a few posts about avoiding anthropomorphism (giving animals human qualities) and how giving your snake any kind of human quality is a bad thing. I'm just wondering why this is. I know that I personally love to think of Huxley in human terms; I feel very motherly towards him...I like to think of him as wanting to come out of his tank or as liking me more than other people.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't correct newbies if they say that their snake likes to be handled, enjoys being in public, etc...

What is the danger of this kind of attitude if you are internally aware that it isn't true, and you give your snake the proper environment and don't stress it out with over-handling? I think part of the joy of having a pet is knowing that it needs your care, and thinking (even if it's not accurate) that your pet likes you. I guess it's just depressing to me to tell myself all the time, "Huxley merely TOLERATES me being around, that's all."

Does that make me (and anyone else who feels the same) bad snake keepers?

[ohh_kristina]

I feel the same way. I just think there is a limit to it. I like to think that my snakes enjoy being handled and exploring outside of their enclosures. I haven't had a problem with handling my snakes once a week. I think the people that let their snake free roam are crazy and are pushing it a little too far, though. If you snake reacts badly to handling, stop handling so much. It's common sense, really. But anyway, I like to think that my snakes have personalities..even though they are just individual "characteristics" (which, I think, amounts to having a personality). If that makes me a bad keeper, then I'm a damn bad keeper. Oh well!

[Andy_G]

Anthromorphism is not totally bad but I feel it is not a good thing to do because you are misinterpreting an animal's real feelings and actions. Snakes can't feel love, only toleration towards us, but I still love all of mine to death.

It can become dangerous because when people say that their snakes "like" to be handled, some of these snakes also "like" to go off food if overhandled, baffling the owner on why his or her snake is fasting because they think their snake loves them and wants to be with them all the time. That is when it becomes bad.

I handle each of my snakes about half an hour in total each week, sometimes an hour in a week, and I haven't had any problems to speak of.

[Steeve B]

Anthropomorphism is a term use by the science community; they seem to think the lack of it will give accurate studies based on fact not human emotions. Its main objective is to keep the human race above all creatures, this same science community studying human races brains to compare evidence of intelligence level between races, however will not discuss any significant findings with the general public, and this in both of the above?
I guess we are soo smart! (_e=mc2_)
Rgds
Respacting the animals needs is a must, regardless of if you think its cabable of emotions or not,

[Jeff_Favelle]

Lately there have been a few posts about avoiding anthropomorphism (giving animals human qualities) and how giving your snake any kind of human quality is a bad thing. I'm just wondering why this is.

Because then you begin to think of the snake as an extension of yourself and not the being that it is. Its totally bad and aside from wild caught animals, is the worst part of the hobby. Of course its bad. When you start to do that, you start to think that your snake is doing things for reasons that are NOT the true reason. This can then lead to BAD/WRONG husbandry. And it normally does.

They don't love you. They are conditioned to have responses or not have responses to certain things you may or may not do. That is it. The faster that people realize this, the better off most captive snakes will be. They don't enjoy your company. They have no concept of what "company" even is. I can't believe that people think they do, in this day and age.

[tHeGiNo]

I would say however that they enjoy the warmth of the human body?

[chas*e]

It really boils down to the fact, as said previous, that we humans are conceited. We find it hard to comprehend that other creatures don't need and love us. I love my critters for their beauty in the way they are. I try to understand their "ways" in order to better care for them......and not get bit......If you want to find out how much your reptile loves you just leave the enclosure open and see how long he hangs around...lol

[mykee]

And if you were small enough, they would consider you food. See, that's exactly what Jeff was talking about. Snakes do not 'like the heat of a human body'. They like heat. Be it from a rock, warm wood or another animal. They could care less about us, that's why they are different from a dog, or a cat, or a fuzzy little hampster. This is why, among other reasons, that owning snakes presents its own unique way of handling the situation. Most people buy a pet that will 'love us unconditionally'; hamsters that will cuddle into your hands, a dog that will lick your face when you get home from work or a cat that purrs when you pet it. These pets, (I have a few of them) are around for companionship. They are around to make us feel better after work or to cheer us up. Snakes do not serve that purpose because they don't care if we are around or not. And it seems pretty egoistic that we think that they are.
Charlie; I just read your post and you nailed it Boss. Dead on, and in way less words than I needed to use. It's all about the ego. Everyone needs their snakes to need us, an want to be around us. Not the case, if fact, the exact opposite.

[ohh_kristina]

I definately don't think that my snakes "love" me. I simply think that they enjoy being out of their cage, exploring and the like. Snakes don't have emotions like that. It's nice to think that they do, but like previously said, it's concieted and all about the human involved.

[Sunrunner]

You know the way every talks about how we shouldn't handle our animals and how they don't want or need us maybe we should take a step back and think then why the hell do we have these animals in captivity. Cause I can garuntee they damn well probably like being in a cage far less then being touched. Your right snakes are not companion animals like dogs and cats so maybe...just maybe we shouldn't own them at all. Not only own them but breed genetic traits that would be a death sentence in the wild. But I won't get into that. I'm not taking sides here just keep in mind owning snakes period isn't what the animal wants either. I know captive breeding is a neccessity thanks to the state of our world but most herp owners are not breeders. Just some food for thought.

[Zoe]

Because a snake is NOT a dog. If you want a pet you can play with all the time, get a dor or cat. If you act with a snake the way you would with a cat, you're going to stress the heck out of it. If you start thinking your animals love you and miss you when you leave, you're going to treat it like a mammal that ENJOYS human companionship. All this leads to bad husbandry (ie: "well, my snake doesn't bite when his tank is kept at 70F, so he must like that better" >> obviously none of us here will think so).

Cause I can garuntee they damn well probably like being in a cage far less then being touched. Not if the cage meets reptile's needs. When they are out of the cage, they are "vulnerable" to predators (be they the handler, birds coming from above, etc). They can't thermoregulate. When they are being handled and touched they need to worry about, worry "is this big animal going to eat me?".

Not only own them but breed genetic traits that would be a death sentence in the wild. Yup, good point. Just look at the CB burms that die in their first half decade because they are so weak genetically. But these animals ARENT in the wild, so it will not harm them to look different (unless the trait itself is detrimental). Keeping them in captivity (usually) guarantees the animal a better, longer life. A reliable source of food, heat, water, no predators, etc. But you're right, perhaps we shouldn't be keeping them in the captivity. [That would be easier if their habitat wasn't being destroyed, of course.]

I guess it's just depressing to me to tell myself all the time, "Huxley merely TOLERATES me being around, that's all." I see the angle you're coming from, and I know you take good care of your herps (that's obvious). But if you get depressed by the fact that your snake doesn't like you anymore than it likes a warm rock, then herps probably aren't for you.

Zoe

[ohh_kristina]

I agree with Zoe about herps liking their enclosure more than being handled..definately. Their enclosure is their home..I think my snakes "enjoy" coming out and exploring a bit, but home is where the heart is, if you know what I mean. I certainly feel more comfortable when I'm at home.

[Sunrunner]

I agree alot with what you say Zoe don't think I'm arguing or anything, just a added some points to be considered. But think a jail cell can meet the needs of a human that doesn't mean they like it. Know what I mean?

[Steeve B]

Anthropomorphism and inter racial intelligence are the most taboo subjects to modern science, you can debate all you whant about what your reptiles are capable of or not, and give opinions like cats and dogs! Witch by the way we have domesticated and are no less predator then any reptiles, the facts remain shod science come out and say Animals are capable of emotion! This who’d be like setting a nuclear bomb on a global scale, just think about it for 10 second, see the implications?
This is why science never uses anthropomorphism, admitting to the slightest emotion that’d start a chain reaction with very very awful results.
Rgds

[Zoe]

reptiles, the facts remain shod science come out and say Animals are capable of emotion!

I think it's pretty well understood that mammals are capable of emotion. It's beneficial for them in the wild, to live in a pack/herd and such. Yes, they are predators, but dogs, for example, need to have an "alpha dog" in the pack, which would be the human (most of the time! :D). Its the same in captivity - a dog learns if he's good and such he gets treats and gets petted.

I still, however, fail to see how this would apply to reptiles. Crocs, maybe? I've never worked with them, but they are supposed to have the biggest reptile brains. But I still have trouble believing that my leopard gecko loves me and misses me when I leave for the weekend.

Zoe

[ohh_kristina]

I would like to know of books, articles, essays, etc. that say that reptiles feel emotion. I have not heard of any. If I'm sitting in the dark here, I would like to know.

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
When you start to do that, you start to think that your snake is doing things for reasons that are NOT the true reason. This can then lead to BAD/WRONG husbandry. And it normally does.


I agree with this. My point is that it doesn't seem bad to enhance the experience of having a pet by giving it emotions, as long as you know and understand that it doesn't actually have them. I'd compare it to the guy in orginal Matrix who had dinner with the agent. He had the steak on the fork, knowing that it wasn't really there, and that it was just electric impulses being sent to his brain, and ate it anyway just to enjoy it.

I don't think there's a problem with combining proper husbandry and an understanding for the actual, instinctual reasons that a snake does something, while looking at your snake as a multidiminesional being with some semblance of a personality. Even if we know it's not true...if it makes the hobby more fun (and the animal doesn't suffer), why not?

[Jeff_Favelle]

My point is that it doesn't seem bad to enhance the experience of having a pet by giving it emotions, as long as you know and understand that it doesn't actually have them.

But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.

I dont' convince myself so much as I just don't constantly remind myself that he would be just fine on his own. When people ask me if he likes being held, I explain to them that snakes don't have human emotions, that they merely tolerate being handled, etc., but when I take him out for handling time, that's not the first thing on my mind. The first thing on my mind is to make sure that he's safe and not getting stressed, and the second thing is to just enjoy playing with my snake. :D I like to give him a little internal monologue, just for myself. Again, I know he doesn't have it, but that's just not on the forefront of my mind those times when I take him out.

I guess I just see this as a problem if the snake is clearly getting stressed out, and you think, "Aww, he's just so excited that he doesn't know what to explore first!" It's then that you have to snap out of, "aww, he's so cute" mode and go into, "Huxley's freakin out, time to leave him alone in his tank" mode. I think as long as you can keep your own, personal, incorrect, human-centric view of your snake separate from what your snake's needs are, then it's all good, IMO.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I dont' convince myself so much as I just don't constantly remind myself that he would be just fine on his own.

I agree. That is one way you could do it, and if you don't get carried away, and the snake doesn't suffer, then go for it! Totally.


:D

[sapphire_moon]

I am torn on this topic.....

Sometimes I think that they (The snakes) "like" being in captivity, simply because they do not have to hunt. It's "easier" for them. I even go to the extent of saying that my male bp "likes" being held.

I also think that all my snakes have different "characteristics" about them. And they do have different "likes" (tolerances) and "dislikes" (things they will NOT tolerate).

I hate the "discussion" that always follows something like this becuase everyone decides that their way of thinking is the only right way.
I just think that everyone has their own opinion about it, and no one is going to change that opinion.

I personally would have to agree that they only tolerate us.
But I would have to also agree that to a certain extent that they "love, and need" us....maybe not in the same way a dog, cat, hamster, bird, etc.....etc.......might. But they still do.

As for the handling. BP's are sensitive to handling. But this is where the tolerance to humans come in to.
Just the other day I took my male BP to work, about 4-5 diff people touched and/ or handled him, 2-3 which were absolutely terrified of him! And he was there for about 1 hr -1 1/2 hours. But not even 4 hours later he took his FIRST large rat.

My little female BP refuses to eat whenever she decides she don't want to, Sometimes I swear she does it to frusterate us! She is in shed, she ate last time she was in shed, now she refused it.
She don't particularly (sp??) like to be held, and litterly only tolerates it.

The little corn, well every time we put our hand in there she curls up with her head in the middle and lifts her head, like she is going to strike. But she don't. After we pick her up she is fine. Will eat every day if we let her, whether or not she's been handled, picked up, put in a rubbermaid (to clean her tank).....she don't care. she will eat, and is getting more and more tollerable (sp?) about being handled..............

so everyones opinion is right........atleast to them, and no one is going to change their mind until they decide that someone elses idea or thought is right..............

I don't mean to offend anyone if I did........just my 2 cents!

[Jeff_Favelle]

*sigh*

Sometimes I think that they (The snakes) "like" being in captivity, simply because they do not have to hunt. It's "easier" for them.

That's just it. You are doing it too. They don't have the concept of hunting. Or not hunting. Or "like". Or having an "easier" life. They have been built (evolution) painstakingly over time to be able to react to situations/events (called their ENVIRONMENT) better than any other animal. They have displaced all other competitors to occupy a certain niche in nature. They do that by having ingrained sets of instructions (called instinct/innate behaviours) that make them do certain things because of certain stimuli (again, their environment). This is what they do. They don't have a concept of it or a self-actualizing consciousness that they are doing it and are a part of a system. Not at all. And to think that they do is exactly what we are talking about!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I hate the "discussion" that always follows something like this becuase everyone decides that their way of thinking is the only right way.


I totally agree! But at the same time, it makes me feel good that there is actually a discussion going on about it! I mean, that's a good thing right? At least ideas are being tossed around.

Hey, there's an Ottawa in the States? That's our capital man!! LOL!

Cheers,

Jeff F.

[Steeve B]

Totaly agree with you Jeff, Ideas are most importante!
Rgds

[bob_thesnowman]

lol...kind of a sketchy topic,i know for a fact most of my reptiles are probably scared of me,but ones we get attached to seem somewhat more human to us,to tell you the truth,i'm guilty of this to,i own a monkey tail skink,and to tell you the truth,i know she's not scared of me,and i might even dare to say she even seems to like me,i mean she nuzzles my neck,and seems to love a nice nap on my shoulders(and she's just so darn cute!)i find these animals truly remarkable,one of very few reptiles(if any others)that take care of there young after birth,and the father even plays a role in parenting,how crazy is that,oh well what i wanna say,whether my girl loves me or not is a mystery,but i still love her ;)

[chas*e]

As far as I have ever noticed, not one of any reptile I have ever seen or owned had any(understandable) emotional response. They just don't have it in their genetic or mental wiring. It's not there !!....They don't need emotions... Mammals such as dogs and cats do have emotional response quite possibly to interact with humans they developed(evolved) basic emotional response....Intellegence has nothing to do with emotions on a basic level, reguardles of brain size. Crocs due always seem to have a "grin on" though..lol

[eyespy]

Most of the anthropomorphic owners I've met are folks who end up with very sick animals because they think docility equals tameness and contentment when it's often the first sign of illness in a reptile.

Take that with a grain of salt, though. Most of the owners I meet have animals that need surgery since I work as a surgical tech and reptile rescuer, it just so happens that roughly 2/3 of them I'd classify as the anthropomorphic type. So it might be that those types of folks are more likely to miss problems until they become a big deal because they misinterpret the early symptoms.

[Youkai]

But if you KNOW it isn't true, how the heck can you convince yourself to think that it is? My mind can do some crazy s**t, but that isn't one of them.

It's called Doublethink, my friend. :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha 1984. GREAT book! :D

[Lisa]

I dunno, I know certain snakes don't like to be handled, some tolerate it and some seem to enjoy it. Whether they enjoy it the same way as we would enjoy snuggling with a loved one or they enjoy it like we would enjoy sitting in the sun is a different matter, the fact is they want to be handled. A friend of mine used to have a wild snake come up to her when she was sitting on her steps and slither into her lap. She would pet it until she was ready to get up or the snake wanted to go and it would come back the next day. You can't tell me the snake didn't enjoy handling, not when it was exhibiting behaviour like this. Now I will admit, occurances such as this are rare, snakes are usually wise enough to avoid us. Who knows, maybe it was a lover from another life.

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by Lisa
Who knows, maybe it was a lover from another life.

Wow.

[Jeff_Favelle]

the fact is they want to be handled

Couldn't disagree more.

[CDN-Cresties]

OK i didnt read all the replies to this post but here is my 2 cents...lol The bad thing about anthropomorphism is that it hides our narcisstic beliefs, IT rejecting anthropocentrism, however by being anthropomorphic we are being anthropocentric because we are placing human qualities/concepts in then animal kingdom, thereby unconsiously implying that humans are the center of the universe. Thats is whats wrong with it, we arent the center of the unverse nor the earth. Anyway thats another discussion.

We just went over this topic in my social science class, Nature & Human Nature. lol Hope I didnt confuse anyone.

-Steve-

[Stockwell]

I think the root cause of anthropomorphism is often missed.
I hope I don't come off as sounding sexist, but it is predominantely a female quality, and it's root cause is maternalism and it's triggered subconsciously and instinctually.
Humans especially those of the female persuasion, tend to develope bonds with creatures with 2 eyes spanning some resemblance of a nose .. and this is why leopard geckos, and Bearded Dragons are so popular. Anything that resembles human infants, and vaguely emmulates any of those facial characteristics that the brain equates to human, tends to get fauned over and emmotionally bonded with as if it were human.

This is why mostly the fuzzy creatures and big eyed herps, with wide "smiling" faces are cherished, given names, cuddled etc.

I know females that knit clothes for their geckos, and take them to the vet more than they go to a doctor themselves... I don't have a problem with this,and of course it's cute and harmless, but its also somewhat irrational, so lets understand where it's coming from and the force that drives it.

If all lizards, snakes, birds and mammals looked like face-less tape worms,nobody but the scientific community would give a damn.
nobody would be cuddling , naming them,Knitting little jackets for them or blowing their rent money buying them..

This is why there is such an uproar about seal culls in the north..The little guys are cute and look like helpless children.
Nobody would care if they were whacking jelly fish on the polar ice. Why? because they don't have faces or other human characteristics.
We're attracted to features resembling our own!
And Speilberg's no dummy...The knowledge of Anthropomorphism is why ET didn't look like an Ameba. Who the heck would go to a movie about middle class kids and a blob of cosmic ectoplasm?

The biggest problem with anthropomorphic behaviour is that it comes with real emmotion, and while being misplaced , this emmotion can lead to protectionism, and is one major trigger for activism and other irrational behaviour that threatens all people working in animal husbandry.

In other words..Anthropomorphism sometimes clouds the ability to be rational and objective while making decisions regarding animals!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Holy smokes Uncle Roy, that was a dynamite post! So dynamite, I saved it. No lie!


:D

[lilyskip]

As a human of the female persuasion, I'm not at all offended by that post...my own anthropomorphic ideas definitely stem from my maternal/caretaking instinct (although I'm sure that some males have a paternal instinct that kicks in, too, just not as strongly, perhaps). I don't know if I would agree that it's subconcious, though. I'm pretty aware of it, even if it's hard to put words to sometimes. I guess I can't speak for all female kind

And Speilberg's no dummy...The knowledge of Anthropomorphism is why ET didn't look like an Ameba. Who the heck would go to a movie about middle class kids and a blob of cosmic ectoplasm?

Hahahahaha. Great post!

[vanderkm]

Roy - have to say you captured it best - the essence and the potential consequences - great post - I agree almost totally - have to say that I think the human response to baby faces extends to males as well as females, though it may be more pronounced in females (actually hasn't it been demonstrated in other mammals and even birds as well?)

great points - especially about the real impact of thinking of animals as humans

mary v.

[reverendsterlin]

lol, interesting thread. I think it is wrong because it degrades another perfect creature. What reason could a snake ever have of even wanting human attributes? My own view of seeing mankind as more a cancer to nature than a blessing biases me. Personally, I don't want any of my animals to be anything even remotely human like. Giving human qualities to animals is a social construct just like believing there is such a thing a different human races. Re-enforcing these social constructs leads to discrimination in our stratified social orders. If I was a snake I would hate to think I shared any human traits lol.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great post Rev! I'm surprised it took you so long to pipe up! :D

[jncoclub]

I read this entire posting and I think it’s a great discussion- great topic Lilyskip. Here’s my 2 bits (maybe a little more than 2..):

I’m aware that they don’t necessarily poke their heads out of hidey holes because I’m home and they are excited to see me. When their timers go off for their lights in the evening and I say “Good night girls” I know they aren’t saying “good night” right back to me. But there is something settling in the notion that maybe, *just maybe*, they do a little extra tongue flick now and again for me in the notion that they may think “hey- something just picked me up, she’s warm and cozy, I feel safe, I like the situation I’m in, this is ok.” Or even if they had simply a computerized type response- “Non threatening”, that makes me feel better than thinking, oh- it’s tolerating me again, as opposed to “Dear god- here it comes again! Noooooooo!”

Are we humoring ourselves sometimes? Yes. But because we are aware that they are in fact snakes/reptiles/what have you, and we are educated on the creature that we have before us, I don’t see a threat in the far-fetched hope that there is a little gratitude for all that we do. (Gratitude is probably a bad word choice, but please just work with me here.)

I don’t expect my snakes to think, “Great, she shelled out the extra $15 for the bigger fancier water bowl”, just the contemptment that it has an appropriate functioning water bowl. I just don’t think the wishful thinking is hurting anyone.

I am the world’s best rambler, so I’ll end my thoughts on the following 3 notes:

1- When I move in 2 weeks, I am hauling my plants that I’ve had for 7 years half away across the US to my mom’s because I want them to live out the rest of their lives happily, not to try to survive off of beer and cigarettes like I know my roommate would feed it. Does my plants really care in the long run- no- but it makes me feel better that I tried, yep.

2- Stockwell is correct, I would not have spent a dime to house tapeworms, and I would not have bought ET if I was simply watching a blob of cosmic ectoplasm.

3- Originally posted by Stockwell
I know females that knit clothes for their geckos
That’s just sick!:eek: Little rat dogs dressed up are bad enough! Now ther are "females" meaning MULTIPLE people knitting clothes for their geckos?? If no one thinks other geckos aren't going to make fun of the "dressed up" ones, then stand back- becasue I will!!

:mednormal

[KingFfaj]

lmao

[Linds]

I do and I don't. I always talk to my animals, I say they are misbehaving or whatnot, and so forth... I say it just for me... or in joke... that's as far as it goes. I in no way, shape, or form make the mistake of actually applying it to these animals... the way I study them, the way I care for them, the way they are - because that is a complete and total misrepresentation of everything they are and cannot acheive anything other than a total misunderstanding of the whatever species which in turn can lead to improper care and management (which can only lead to animals not being kept optimally), as well as unsuccessful attempts at any goals, being breeding, keeping, or studying. IMHO it is quite arrogant to believe that all creatures on this planet think, feel, and react like humans.

Originally posted by Steeve B
the facts remain shod science come out and say Animals are capable of emotion! This who’d be like setting a nuclear bomb on a global scale, just think about it for 10 second, see the implications?


Science has proven that animals DO have emotion. Companion animals such as dogs and cats DO have emotion, not human emotion, but emotion nonetheless. This is why you have conditions such as seperation anxiety in all sorts of animals ranging from elephants to cats. Same with jealousy, etc. Cannot be argued that they are scientifically accepted, as they would not be able to be applied in veterinary medecine if they were not. Primates are the only animals that have any sort of emotion comparable to humans. Other animals DO have emotion, although it is not human emotion, hence anthromorphism can lead to problems. I personally do not believe reptiles and amphibians have emotions, however to say that ALL animals ared incapable of experiencing emotions is IMHO quite far of the mark.

Originally posted by Stockwell
is is why leopard geckos, and Bearded Dragons are so popular. Anything that resembles human infants, and vaguely emmulates any of those facial characteristics that the brain equates to human, tends to get fauned over and emmotionally bonded with as if it were human.

Eeeeeeewwwwwwwwww... beardies and human babies
:medbugged

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by reverendsterlin
If I was a snake I would hate to think I shared any human traits lol.

If you were a snake, you WOULDN'T think, would you?

I think we all anthropomorphize. To think of it as morally wrong is taking things a step too far. I'm not trying to flame, it's just that I don't think there's anything degrading about looking at a snake in human terms. It's impossible for us to understand snakes as they are...we're not snakes. We don't know what goes on inside their heads. The best we can do is give them the proper care they need.

It seems possible that another source of anthropomorphism could just be that we can't comprehend them on a deeper level on any terms other than our own.

[Steeve B]

Same with jealousy

Linds I will post somthing in this regard on the varanid forum.
by the way I never expresed sides on this matter, only facts
Rgds

[lilyskip]

Originally posted by jncoclub
I read this entire posting and I think it’s a great discussion- great topic Lilyskip.

Thanks, btw :D

[Linds]

Originally posted by Steeve B

Linds I will post somthing in this regard on the varanid forum.
by the way I never expresed sides on this matter, only facts


I never said you were taking sides. But to say that no animals have emotion is an incorrect fact. Veterinary <B>sciences</B> (which I am know a fair bit of and am still studying in my schooling) have proven otherwise. I was posting from fact, not opinion or belief.

[Steeve B]

sorry thats not how I meant it, I know you never said that!
I shod of said
by the way Guys I take no side on this issue! only state facts.
your one of my favorit poster, I will never insult you
kind regards

[jay76]

Attribute it to the egocentricity of mankind, maternal/paternal instincts or whatever, the reason it occurs while a good topic for an open discussion isn't as critical as the end result. As some (like Jeff and Eyespy) said, anthropomorphism among those who don't know better can often mask husbandry issues that could lead to serious health problems or the death of the reptile. Like if I see my king out coiled around his driftwood under the heat light, the last thought in my mind is "oh, how nice, he's come out to greet me" but instead "uhoh, this isn't normal. I'd better check the temps again." As long as you KNOW that the feelings you're imposing are entirely wrong, the occasional lapse isn't necessarily bad by default. That's what I think anyways :)

LMAO! Sweaters for leos?? Too funny :) I wonder if they've tried knitting jumpsuits for snakes yet...

[sapphire_moon]

Ok I know I'm responding a little late Jeff_Favelle........but that is why I put the little " " things around the words. I was using a term or word that I felt more comfortable using......I was saying that I hate these kind of discussions because I don't like it when the people start getting "pi**y" about other peoples opinions.....I agree with you that snakes do not have a concept of feelings of "love" and things like that...........but for me I also believe that they do have atleast the littlest concept of these "human" emotions........but that is just me...............

Ya there is an ottawa in the states.......and another one in I think one other state........and believe me.....WE would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather be there!!!!!!!!!!