How often to do actually CLEAN

[daver676]

I don't mean just changing the newspaper either. How often do you actually get out the sponge and bucket and clean your bp's enclosure and furniture. Myself, about every 2 weeks or so. How often SHOULD enclosures be cleaned?

Dave

[Jeff_Favelle]

You should NOT be doing that every two weeks. You are probably stressing out your snake, and much like other reptiles, your BP might be laying pheromone trails to mark its territory. And then every 2 weeks you're wiping that clean away? Even if BP's don't do that, you are just putting unnecessary stress on the snake. Every 2 weeks? Are you serious?

[sapphire_moon]

I do full cleaning about once a month. Sometimes twice a month, it just depends on how dirty it actually is. Usually only once a month though.

[Andy_G]

I do a full cleaning after a poop and that's pretty much it.

[elevation24]

I spot clean when I see a mess in there, but usually my snakes poop inside their hides :rolleyes: So I have to look around a bit every few days.

I replace the substrate about once every 30 to 45 days, and I've never had to get down a scrub like that. Rubbermaids stay fairly clean as it is, I just get a large garbage bag and dump it into it and put new stuff in. There's never been a time where anything nasty actually touched the rubbermaid, so I don't see the point of scrubbing.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Every 2 weeks? Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. I asked for your advice, not your attitude.

Dave

[lilyskip]

I replace the newspaper when it gets skanky or pooped or peed on. I only clean if it smells really, really stank in there, which usually only equals once every few months or so.

[GI Joe]

I check for messes daily, change substrate monthly (or as needed) and scrub every 3-4 months (Probably tonight as a matter of fact).

jeff

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
You should NOT be doing that every two weeks. You are probably stressing out your snake, and much like other reptiles, your BP might be laying pheromone trails to mark its territory. And then every 2 weeks you're wiping that clean away? Even if BP's don't do that, you are just putting unnecessary stress on the snake. Every 2 weeks? Are you serious?

Jeff,

maybe I'm a clean-freak or something, but how can an enclosure be healthy for the animals if they are not cleaned at least once every 2 weeks? I clean on every defecation and sometimes I have to clean inbetween because of excessive urates (this only occurs from time to time, but sometimes the mess is worst if they splashed some water around or something like that). I currently have my animals on unprinted newspaper, so I can't spot clean. I suppose you have shredded aspen or pine shavings and you spot clean most of the time?

Thanks,
Bristen.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Most of mine are on news paper and a few on aspen. I check their boxes every day or two and clean as necessary. As for a real "cleaning", not too often. Pretty much only when there is poop on the side of the bin or something obvious like that.

I do notice that certain snakes don’t really like it when I clean their bin. They get right down to messing it all up again as soon as I have it all “perfect”. But that’s mostly my cal kings and some milks… :) Little buggers....

[mykee]

Bristen, think about it, do the Africans come out into the jungle every second Saturday with their Swiffers, mops, vacuums, Windex, bleach and Shop-Vacs to clean the jungle floor of all the icky, icky snake poop and anything else that may be 'unsanitary'? I don't think so.

[Clownfishie]

Bristen, I'm pretty sure that what Jeff meant is that scrubbing out an enclosure every 2 weeks is a little excessive -- obviously, spot cleaning/changing of newspaper or whatever must be done on a more regular basis...

Personally, I change the newspaper whenever the snakes make a mess in there (urate/poop/whatever)... which generally happens every 1-2 weeks. Actual scrubbing down of the tubs I'll only do if the tub itself manages to get dirty, or every month or 2 for the snakes that require more humidity, just because of the dampness in there...

[Yve]

.....but that jungle floor is ALOT larger than an enclosure that can fill up with urates and feces quickly......i don't know....do snakes wallow in their crap in the wild?

[killaclown]

i just cleaned mine but i just switch 2 news paper so i have 2 see how that works

[Infectrix]

2 Cents, FWIW, IMHO, IMNSHO, and IMNSHBCO just in case.

"I let my snakes wallow in their excretions for months until I feel like cleaning out their enclosures. I also feed them live prey items, and feeding days are anywhere from once a week to once a month. I leave them Fairfax County tap water to drink. And speaking of water, I NEVER clean out the bowl, I just fill it back up whenever it's empty. I should also mention that I use dirt for substrate in all of my 50 gallon enclosures (for babies and adults alike). Usually there's mites and ticks but as long as they're kept INSIDE the enclosure then it's all good with me. And checkups by a vet? Pleeeease."

Now, some of you might see that as an attack but it's not meant to be. I have to go back to the basic fundamentals for my response to this one.

My whole perception of keeping BP's in captivity is that it's not supposed to be anything like the wild environments of their wild counterparts. To me, captivity is all about sterility. Parasite free prey items, clean and drinkable water, clean substrates, and an overall clean enclosure at all times. Ball Pythons born into and raised in a captive environment should be treated as such.

Of course there are a few exceptions from time to time like tap water and an occasional live prey item (although it's frowned upon).

I base the care of my snakes on my perception of keeping them in captivity, that's all.

How often SHOULD enclosures be cleaned?

I thoroughly clean an enclosure anytime I find pee or poop.

[Stockwell]

Cleaning is often seriously over done by new age herpers...
I don't really "clean" much. I remove sheds, and clumps of soiled substrate and feces.I reduced my work load by utilizing particulate type substrates that can be spot cleaned, and don't need entire removal..I used landscape western bark for Regius when I was breeding them in the 80's, then when I had spot cleaned so much that I could see the cage floor, I would toss in more substrate, its that simple.
I only do scrub down type cleaning when a cage or tray changes charges, or if I have a sick animal which is very rare.
While most of us don't leave poop in the cage and do seek a fair degree of sanitation which is good, a snakes defecate is not injurious to it, unless it has abnormal levels of pathogens to start with.

Its unnecessary to blow your entire weekend scrubbing out snake cages, ecpeicially with Regius that only poop once a month. If you have Indigos, garters, or other poop machines, you will however be doing alot of spot cleaning (;o)

[Bristen]

Originally posted by mykee
Bristen, think about it, do the Africans come out into the jungle every second Saturday with their Swiffers, mops, vacuums, Windex, bleach and Shop-Vacs to clean the jungle floor of all the icky, icky snake poop and anything else that may be 'unsanitary'? I don't think so.

sorry mykee, but I don't agree.. it is not the same thing.. animals in captivity are in very small enclosures (no matter what size they are) compared to when they are outside in the wild. No africans go clean the jungle true, but the animals have somewheres to go when they defecate or urinate. In captivity, they are in plastic/wood/glass boxes that don't allow fluids/smells/etc to go away. If a snake defecates in captivity, it often has no other place to go other than over it's own feces & urates. That is not healthy and very prone for bacterial/fungal infections. Dirt is not that unclean compared to feces. This is why I believe it is only normal to keep your captive animals clean.

I am not a vet, nor a very experienced keeper of hundreds of animals or anything like that. I however feel that it is only common sense. This does not mean that everytime there is a defecation in the cage everything has to be soaked in bleach or alcohool, but simply water and soap cleaning would be in order in my opinion.

just my 2 cents...

Best Wishes,
Bristen.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Yve
.....but that jungle floor is ALOT larger than an enclosure that can fill up with urates and feces quickly......i don't know....do snakes wallow in their crap in the wild?

I had not read this post before I just replied to mykee, but I definately have the same thoughts as you do... Thanks for posting :-)

Bristen.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by Stockwell
[...] I don't really "clean" much. I remove sheds, and clumps of soiled substrate and feces.I reduced my work load by utilizing particulate type substrates that can be spot cleaned, and don't need entire removal [...]

I only do scrub down type cleaning when a cage or tray changes charges, or if I have a sick animal which is very rare.

While most of us don't leave poop in the cage and do seek a fair degree of sanitation which is good, a snakes defecate is not injurious to it, unless it has abnormal levels of pathogens to start with.

I think I'm starting to understand why there are some different opinions about all of this.. if you use something like tree bark or shredded aspen (which I'm trying out right now) as opposed to newspaper, cleaning is very different. With particle substrate it becomes very easy to clean a small area without having to remove the animals from the enclosure and clean everything. On newspaper, normally all the newspaper has to come out and often times the tub is greased up. At minimum, the animal has to be taken out, newspaper removed, then at least some quick scrubbing to remove dried up feces and urates on the tub. But I don't have a whole lot of experience with other substrates such as shredded aspen for example. The only thing that worries me about shredded aspen or pine shavings is for feeding. I use feeding containers for the animal I currently have on shredded aspen (fear of ingestion).

Originally posted by Stockwell
Its unnecessary to blow your entire weekend scrubbing out snake cages, ecpeicially with Regius that only poop once a month. If you have Indigos, garters, or other poop machines, you will however be doing alot of spot cleaning (;o)
well, I had a few corn snakes here and they are what you call "poop machines" no doubt... I had them on newspaper and the work load was unbareble. I'm getting out of corn snakes now though, so it won't be my problem any more :-)

Best Wishes,
Bristen.

[mykee]

Stockwell hit the nail right on the head, and Bristen, if I offended you, I apologize. I also believe that snake owners clean out their environments way too often, but, I guess that is based on the substrate you keep. I personally have 95% of my balls on unprinted newspaper, so it is as easy as removing the paper, wiping the floor down, and replacing when there are urates, fecal, or a shed. I was assuming that you were referring to a chip substrate of some sort. My mistake.

[ohh_kristina]

I spot clean whenever I find urates or feces, and I clean up the substrate when they spill their water dish and the like. I deep clean once every two or three months, though. I agree about new herpers over doing it a bit. When I first got into the hobby, I deep cleaned every time they went to the bathroom.

[Jo060]

Originally posted by daver676
Yes, I'm serious. I asked for your advice, not your attitude.

Dave

Daver676, I agree there is no need for his attitude...wut w/ that JEff?

[Jeff_Favelle]

He asked a series of questions and I gave him my experienced advice on reptile cleaning (which was supported by a guy - Uncle Roy- 2 threads up that has forgotten more about snakes than any of us will ever know) and this is attitude? I never flamed, I never called names, I never put him down. I asked some serious husbandry questions, and you call this attitude?

My question to you is, what's up with THAT? Please explain. Because if we can't give opinions and share our experiences without you getting all huffy, what's the point?

Just weird. And not cool weird. Weird weird.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by mykee
Bristen, if I offended you, I apologize. [...] I was assuming that you were referring to a chip substrate of some sort. My mistake.

mykee, no need to apologize.. no offense taken... we are just exchanging ideas and opinions. But thanks for making sure things were ok :-)

Best Wishes,
Bristen.

[daver676]

Look Jeff, I know that you know snakes (nice website BTW), and I would take your advise over 90% of the people on this board, but sometimes I think you come off as a snotty know-it-all, and if thats fine with you, so be it, but I think some people would avoid your good advice simply because of the way it is delivered. Now I know your probably saying "thats fine if they don't want to listen to me, thats their problem". Well I feel that if someone posts a question, and I attempt to help them solve it, it becomes my problem. Your post was belittling to me, and anyone else who read this thread, and follows the same cleaning schedule as me. In the end I feel, it only reflects badly on you.

Dave

[Jeff_Favelle]

People should never avoid good advice out of spite because it only hurts the animals. And really, that's all the matters to me. I don't really care about people's feelings, nor do I care if I sound arrogant (believe me, I'm not. I'm the mosty self-deprecating guy I know, honestly). Its all about the animals. Nothing more, nothing less. People can take the advice if they want, or they can laugh at it, or they can ignore it. It matters not to me. All I care about is that I relayed my knowledge to the best of my abilities and I've corrected the most mistakes of others that I possibly could have. How people feel about that is irrelevant. I'm not here to be everyone's buddy (fairly obvious). I'm here because I share a common attribute with everyone else; I love animals, and I love to be around them. Have that reflect on me however you choose, again, its inconsequential.

And I never belittled you. I still can't see that. I re-read my reply 4 times and not once did I call you a name, say you were stupid, or make fun of you. I'm sorry, but you being over-sensitive about me telling you how it is just doesn't sit well with me. I have 4 emails now regarding this thread from people asking me what your problem is. I clearly stated my advice from my experience, and that was it. Holy.

But again, whatever.

[daver676]

Well Jeff, there are no hard feelings here, I guess we just won't go the same way on this one.

As far as people sending you e-mails regarding my problem, direct them to the my previous thread, or tell them to get a life if all they have time to do is write you e-mails regarding my problems.

Dave

[daver676]

Better yet, tell them to post a reply here and address me directly, instead of going through you.

Dave

[ReptiZone]

OK This is how I see it.

All you newbies ar first year experts come here and ask Questions good job you are taking it apon your self to expan your knowlege.

and we understand that you dont want some hack to answer your questions or some person that just thinks hey know all the answers. You want answers from some of the best in the buissnes

So when one of use takes the time to wright a reply to your verry simple question....meaning 5 min on the net with yahoo or google and you would find half your answers or even better a library you know that place where you they give you these square things that have lots of thin stuff with letters on it some times mistaken as toilet paper......Don't start flaming the guy are girl giving you the info. Just caus you think he/she was a bit rude or rough with you (in general) I am not directing you presonaly daver676.

I am just saying this for future reference.

I read it every day some one askes a question and some time it goes good but when the answer was not said the way they wanted to here it then they get all offended.

FYI if you think Jeff is hard to deal with you should try reading some of he stuff I have said to ppl I am the worst SOB out there when it comes to plain lazynes I mean ya sure the net is cool but there is only a % of the importent info go to the library call you local zoos there is almost allwase a certafide herpatholagist. Do volentear work for pet stores or your local humain sociaty get some real hands on experience for god sakes. when all that is done then most of the time all that is left is the rather important question or just a few unsertanties.

ppl need to stop thinking that if you know your leo gecko or ball python inside and out that dosent make you an expert there for when you ask a question and a experianced herper answers no mater how it is said just shut up and take it as constroctive critasisum because you are in no place to argue with 10-20-30 if not 50 years of reserch or personal studies. Other wise it is alwase the herps the suffer.

as you all can see I referd to a bunch of difrent stuff here and kinda flipfloped here and there but the basic idea is there. I am not attacking any one realy I am just ranting for the future when some ones replies wit any kind of rud tone or rough answer just blow it off and reserch some more and see if the advice that was given is acurat at least with that simple pice of info you have somthig to start a reserch with who cares what you had to do or endure to get it your animal will still profit from it in the long run.

NOTE: Jeff you were not rude in my books.

NOTE: this is also not a reason for ppl to loose a total respect twords others just keep in mind that we are humands and we have rough days some times and when we see simple questions we just answer them and not care about the rest take it or leave it that is what I say.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Amen.

[eyespy]

The terms of my license as a reptile rescuer mandate weekly cage disinfections, so I clean way more often than most folks. Funny thing is, most of the reptiles who have been with me have decreased levels of cortisol and epinephrine (stress markers) in their bloodstream after a few weeks of weekly cleaning than they did when they first arrived with me.

Don't know if I'm just a snake charmer or if a cleaner environment causes less stress on the immune system, but it works well for me. ;)

[daver676]

Thats good to know eyespy. I'll stick to my schedule. Thanks.

Dave

[NewLineReptile]

Originally posted by daver676
How often SHOULD enclosures be cleaned?
Dave

Should you not know that,

Brandon

[maiden_canada]

dave i think it was uncalled for of you to say the people who emailed jeff have no lives. also jeff didnt say anything wrong, he just stated the facts.

[mykee]

In fact, that's all Jeff does; state facts. IF you like it good, if not, who cares?

[AshleyL]

Originally posted by Yve
.....but that jungle floor is ALOT larger than an enclosure that can fill up with urates and feces quickly......i don't know....do snakes wallow in their crap in the wild?

good call!!:cool:

[Linds]

Originally posted by Infectrix
To me, captivity is all about sterility. Parasite free prey items, clean and drinkable water, clean substrates, and an overall clean enclosure at all times. Ball Pythons born into and raised in a captive environment should be treated as such.


Sterile environments do nothing to benefit a healthy animal, and imho, only do a disservice. In order to maintain a healthy immune system, there needs to be a regular exposure to a variety of pathogens. Obviously you don't want to keep any animal in an excessive amount of filth, but a sterile environment will only weaken the animals resistance to those pathogens that are absent, creating a more fragile animal that will not be able to withstand anything without getting sick. I usually only change the substrate when there is a mess made. If it is a large enough mess and gets the enclosure soupy, I dry it with papertowels, or occassionally with peroxide and replace the substrate.

[daver676]

Sheesh. I was just thinking about this thread the other day, and how glad I was it was gone.

For anyone planing on posting anything about harshness or uncalled for remarks blah blah blah..... It's long been over. Let's stick to the topic. Thank-you. :D

Anyways, I have eased off on the disinfecting. Now I usually only disinfect when any poop or pee has leaked through the newpaper, or been smeered on the glass. Usually about once every one or 2 months.

[nita]

Originally posted by Linds
Sterile environments do nothing to benefit a healthy animal, and imho, only do a disservice. In order to maintain a healthy immune system, there needs to be a regular exposure to a variety of pathogens.

I cant' agree more. I have a friend who literally lysols her shopping cart before going grocery shopping with her children and I have never heard of kids being sick as often as hers are. They catch every thing going around. If it is bad for humans I figure it can't be great for the animals either.

I keep my BP's on peat moss and spot clean. I keep the substrate about 1 1/2" thick. I use clay pots as water dishes, harder to overturn and help with humidity. I will change the substrate completely every month, month and a half, and then I also wash it down with vinigar and water, and wash all the decorations as well. Of course if there is feces smeared anywhere ya know then it gets cleaned well too.

[RandyRemington]

I use newspaper and scrub as needed 2 or 3 times a week (mainly due to a wife who threatens to kick me and my snakes out at the hint of any smell). Most of the cages don't have messes and just get put back quickly when checked but some of the well-fed babies sometimes mess their cage more often than once a week. If I'm going to pull the snake in order to change the newspaper I generally scrub (and it usually needs it). Most of the snakes that eat once a week end up getting their cages scrubbed once a week. Fortunately, during the breeding season the adults don't mess their cages all that often and hence don't need to be disturbed much. I can't tell that my snakes are stressed and feel that I've had fairly good breeding success with the animals I have up to proper weight (my feeder supply is another constant problem - I'd have to clean rodent cages at least every other day to hope to raise my own without stinking up the house).

[Vengeance]

There was something mentioned on the very first page of this thread that caught my attention

Of course there are a few exceptions from time to time like tap water and an occasional live prey item (although it's frowned upon).

Is tap water not a good source of water and if not what is a better alternative?

[marisa]

I believe the poster meant live food is frowned upon. If your taps fine for you, its probably just fine for your herps.

Marisa

[Slannesh]

Really I think half the cause for disagreement in this thread is differing opinions on what "Clean" means as opposed to clean, disinfect and sterilize.

Personally, I use shredded aspen as a substrate and spot clean whenever I see my BP has defacated. I do the whole "toss all the substrate and clean, disinfect and sterilize the enclosure" every several months. If you have waterbowls getting upended while there are defacates in the enclosure you'll probably want to do it more often, but it's never been a problem for me. I use a large, relatively low and heavy dog food bowl as a water dish that she's never upended.

I think it's essential to disinfect any enclosure that will be seeing a new animal and if you have a sick animal it's probably a good idea to keep them in a more sterile environment. But unless you are in a situation where you're seeing a lot of unhealthy animals like Eyespy is I dont' think bi-weekly cleaning, disinfecting and sterilization of the enclosure is necessary. That of course assumes that the animal is staying in the same enclosure all the time.

When I was doing a lot of volunteer work at the vet we used to do daily cage cleaning, disinfecting and sterilizations but that was because you're dealing with sick and injured animals and not 'pets' that are being kept in their normal enclosures at home.

[Cruciform]

Nita: I bet you're right about your friend just making things worse. Every time she sprays that disinfectant or uses an antibiotic soap she's wiping out all the weaker bacteria and leaving the stronger ones to procreate. So her family isn't doing themselves any favors by avoiding infection.


And for the people who use unprinted newspaper in their cages: Where can I get some? Right now I've just got the "pooper twins", but I'm slowly stocking up my supplies for my herp room.

[jfmoore]

Originally posted by Cruciform
And for the people who use unprinted newspaper in their cages: Where can I get some?

I buy mine online (thread about that here http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=276407#post276407), but if you only need enough for two garter snakes, you should check out one of those retail mailing/moving/shipping supplies stores. Mykee has said he buys his at one of those, I think. Maybe he can give you a name. Unless your St. Thomas location is in the Virgin Islands. What do I know? I’m from the U.S.

P.S. – I couldn’t believe someone resurrected this thread! And I didn’t catch on until I had read about 4 posts. I was muttering to myself, “Dang, Jeff sounds likes he’s repeating the EXACT same stuff as before. How does he do it?” Thanks for all the laughs - again. I was wondering how I kept my smart-mouth opinions out of the entire mess, until I realized that I wasn’t even posting here then. :hammer: It must have been so much fun that it prompted me to register.

I do have some opinions on the subject, though. Anybody wanna hear some? No? Never mind.

-Joan

[Linds]

Cruciform,
You can usually get some (often free) from the places that print them. I don't know if they sell to outside sources, but you could also try a paper mill if you have one nearby.

[Cruciform]

Thanks Linds :)

I'll have to bug the Free Press and see if they have any leftover rolls.

[Jeff_Favelle]

If its the "Free Press", shouldn't they just give you some??

.....Ok, I'll go stand in the corner now.....

[MouseKilla]

Hahaha. Numbnuts.