How do you handle your "not-so-hot" hots?

[Vanan]

Just wondering how some of you handle your "not-so-hot" hots, eg. hognoses, FWC's, vines etc.

[Vanan]

Since I only own hogs as my NSH "Hot", I hook em out then handle them.

[fatboy]

Does this include Eastern Corals....haha.

[Vanan]

Corals are not included as they are Vipers. ;)

[Sean_.E.]

Personally, I do not consider w. hognoses hot and I therefore always free handle.

[Mustangrde1]

Since when is a Coral snake a viper? Lat i checked they fell in the elapid family. as to how I handle Vine snakes, Mangrove snakes and hog nose, i use my hands . anything else is hooks, tongs , tubes, grabbers, hemostats, snow shovels.

[Sean_.E.]

I didn't realize that he said corals are vipers until after I posted. They definately aren't!

[Vanan]

Oh geez guys! Noone knew that that corals are now considered to be vipers? yeesh! Yea and they also moved boomslangs to boidae! ;)<--Wink, for those who didn't notice it earlier.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I saw the wink. It was as blatant as can be. Oh well.

[Vanan]

Oh well. Now back to the question at hand.

[Gregg M]

Hey Scott, those snow shovels come in handy for big gaboons....... One of the best investment I ever made......... Makes it soo much easier to move them around.........

[JD@reptiles]

im a hooker

[Mustangrde1]

Gregg you arnt kidding and neither was I safe for both the handler and the animal. SAFTYYYYYYY FIRST.

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hey guys,

The thing that scared us the most as we were doing the study was when the massive toxicity results started rolling in ... combined with none of the elapid antivenoms doing a bloody thing. We started seeing a list with names like Schmidt, Mertens, boomslang, twig snake on it...... and really didn't want to scroll down and see our names on it! Particularly once we started getting in all sorts of weird snakes not widely available. We actually had to start treating all of the 'colubrids' as hot snakes since we had no idea what we were getting into with some of them (combined with the lack of antivenom). This all started one day when the Boiga nigriceps came up as toxic as a death adder..... well unfortunately I had just donated the pair to the petting zoo! Oops ;-p Just after this, one of the lesser known Coluber species from Egypt smacked a pet store employee really bloody hard (systemic neurotoxicity). This very much caught us off guard.

Some of the ones I'd personally rate as of potentially real concern is anything in the Psammophiinae family (Psammophis, Malpolon) and I'd also treat some of the Pseudoxyrhophiinae family genera with concern (these are the Madagascar colubrids). This is due in part of previous bite reports (Psammophis, Malpolon), devastating mouse kill times for Psammophis and the genetic affinity of both families, their closest relatives is the highly toxic Atractaspidae family and also the Elapidae! They are very much 'protoelapids'. The Colubrinae family as a general rule have venoms packed full of 3FTx neurotoxins. I now give the larger Boiga much more respect than I did previously. While I don't think they would be normally capable of lethal envenomations they certainly can cause notable symptoms (I had one 2.2 meter B. dendrophila get me good and it was 'death adder-lite').

Ironically, the ones that are usually batted around as potential concerns, particularly Xenodontinae family members like Heterodon and Hydrodynastes actually appear to be of lesser concern than a lot of the others. Very sustained and vigorous chewing by both these species has certainly produced clinically relevant symptoms but not to the extent of some of the others. That said, other Xenodontinae have been shown to be lethal (e.g. Philodryas).

There's just so many bloody unknowns, particularly when considering how many of the total number have actually been widely kept (bugger all) and how many have been studied (even less).

One snake that I consistently hear from keepers as having devastating mouse kill times is Thrasops jacksoni. Not entirely suprising considering its genetic affinity to the boomslang. Does anyone here keep them? I'd be curious to hear from more keepers.

Cheers
B

PS JD, we don't hold your method of employment against you. Even rent-boys can keep herps ;-p

[Vanan]

lol Jordan! So you still want a Psammophis now? Hehe.

I think I've heard about the Thrasops jacksoni, but there was more talk about it on the "milk"snake site.

Wohoo! So I don't have to hook them hogs anymore. Oh wait, I'd still rather not get a feeding bite regardless of toxicity, thank you very much.

[Stockwell]

Vanan, my hogs don't get held at all.. They are all face grabbers, possibly the result of keeping them in a rack system, which only opens for one reason(food). That tray even moves a wisker, and those things are right pushing their snouts at the crack...I've had mine leap right out of the trays with their mouths open.. They chomp me, hooks , gloves whatever is there they'll bite it, even water bowls
I have been bitten by H. nasicus several times, but I get them off damn fast, and have never had any reaction at all...
I treat them with respect however and simply avoid handling them. I use hooks and gloves occasionally but I generally just give them a mouse, then move them when their mouths are full

[Vanan]

See that's the crazy feeding response I'm talking about. Maybe it does have something to do with rack systems. Cos I've noticed a better feeding respose with alot of my guys since moving to racks. Maybe something to do with more light coming in when opened?

[Mustangrde1]

Dr Fry.

I know one of the members keeps the Jacksoni and has me on a quest to find a pair as well. I will call him tonight and have him e-mail you directly. He and I both have been looking all over the web and talking to anyone that has even heard of them.

Scott

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Fangs for that mate, I appreciate it. We had planned on including them in the study but the airline froze one of the boxes during one of the shipments.... the one that of course included the T. jacksoni as well as a couple nice mambas.... the bastards.

Cheers
B

[Mustangrde1]

Dr Fry what species of Mamba are you looking for you might try Ray Hunter I know as of earlier this week he had some very nice greens.

Scott

[Scales Zoo]

I free handle all of our hognose snakes, except for one we had that always puffed and striked. I'd use a hook or whatever for that one.

We had diadem snakes (Spalerosophis) once. I had read that their bites had caused people to go to the hospital (after we brought them home).

They were pure evil, we had 3 of them. When all 3 would imitate a saw scaled viper - it sounded like a steam engine.

They intimidated me, and the day we had to bag them for shipping - I donned welding gloves, leather biker jacket, welders face sheild and hooks.

The person who got them had gotten bit, and did not notice anything out of the ordinary.

I also free handle western terestrial garters "Thamnophis elegans". I've heard stories of kids having a lot of swelling and irritation for days after bites from them. They bite an adult mouse and it becomes paralyzed.

I've tried to get bit by garters in the past, to see what happens.

Dry Fry, I'll keep you updated if I ever get bit. I'd love to see my name, and pers. comm. together in your literature.

Ryan

[Vanan]

Dry Fry, I'll keep you updated if I ever get bit. I'd love to see my name, and pers. comm. together in your literature.

LOL! Does this mean that you'll be pissing the heck out of every garter you see Ryan? I can just picture it. Ryan with a garter in hand poking at its nose, going "Bite! Bite! I wanna be in Dr Fry's papers! Bite goddamnit!" lol!

[Mustangrde1]

Not trying to be insulting ,But why would you try to get bit by a potentially Venomous animal just to get your name in a paper.

To me this sounds foolish. Say for instance you had a sever alllergical reaction and required medical attention the bills could be very high. Also there is the possibility of death . then you get in to the bad media publicity. What about the effects it could also have on your family.

I believe there are far better ways to test these animals then on ones self for the purpose of having your name in a paper.

[jtpRUGGER]

Good question...for my not-so-hots, it depends. H.nasicus, I pick up, play with, take out to dinner, whatever. Never really treated them as a hot. Mangroves, when I work with them, I am more careful, but not as I am with my vipers. Finally, however, is T.jacksoni. I have a pair of them, and I treat them like what they are: Hell on Wheels. Even if I didn't think these guys were hot, I wouldn't treat them much differently. They are fast. I mean really fast. I have seen them bite, kill, and consume an adult mouse in well under a minute. That includes swallowing time. So, I guess my answer to this question is: Depends on which "not so hot."

[Vanan]

Holy wow! That sounds crazy with the T. jacksoni. Dya find them being aggressive (striking or gaping, whichever they do) or just plain fast?

[jtpRUGGER]

Vanan, they are just plain wild if you tail them...fast, and WILL strike if given the chance...they also inflate tracheal airsacs like boomers...

[Scales Zoo]

Mustang...

There is very little known about bites from wandering garters.

I'm not allergic to many things, but if I did die, I would make a Dr. Fry paper for sure, and that would be so cool!

It isn't a paper by just anyone, but by the good Venom Doc! People are just dieing to get in those.....

Ryan

[Mustangrde1]

I guess maybe I just put more value on my life than to risk it for a paper. I know the animals I deal with are at best dangerous at worst deadly. To become another statistic just doesn't sit well with me.

It reminds me of old science as an example, I recently had an argument with a person. He stated" I collect sub record animals and put them in with other species and grow them to records then put them in Jars for preservation so that DNA and BLOOD work can be done later and my name will be on papers and the jar". This was in regard to North American turtles but he has said he would do it for snakes or anything.
Now my problem with that is, 1st it was not a record find but a captive grown record. 2nd it was placed with other species which can introduce other parasites and cross contamination.
3rd with the abundance of research already done on North American species there is no call to sincelessly kill an animal just for name recognition of a person.
DNA and Blood samples can now be performed in the field as well as measurements and weight and pictures of the animal. Thus eliminating the need to kill animals of large size which are by all counts the healthiest genetic members. These animals will produce the better genetic and the larger clutch sizes and therefore hopefully insuring the continuation of the species.

What was good Science in the 1800s and early 1900s has evolved in to a better and more exact science in the later 1900s and in to the 2000s? Eliminating much of the unneeded deaths for both animals and humans.

Yes, I agree at one point this was what was known as good science but to continue it now in my opinion is unneeded as there are better methods now available. Also for any person to put themselves at risk to test the affects of a bite is Bad research do to the many complexities in Human DNA and make up what affects one person may not affect another so why risk it.

I would love to hear what the take on what I just said is from all the members of this forum are.

[Scales Zoo]

Maybe you took my last post a bit too seriously.

I wouldn't want to die, and I don't think there is any real risk of death from a bite from a wandering garter.

Yes, I do want to get bit by one someday, to see if any symptoms I have heard of occur in me.

I was one of those kids who had to find things out for myself, I guess I haven't really grown out of that.

Ryan

[Mustangrde1]

Ryan, I do take venomous bites seriously .I have seen first hand what kind of damage they do and the after math both financially and disfiguring that can and often does occur.

Keep this in mind at one time people thought boomslangs couldnt kill! You never know what will happen and i would hate to see someone have to find out first hand, when there is no need to.

[cobraman]

Scott, I found this for you. Can you use it in your Green Mamba Handling 101 classes?

[Scales Zoo]

Suddenly my handling of garter snakes doesn't seem so dangerous.

What about your family, and their kids, and those kids's kids?

Ryan

[Vanan]

LOL!

[Mustangrde1]

If that snake could hurt a fly then my name is johny applesead. Ray is getting carried away with some old pics of a very harmeless animal.

[FacultyX]

I would love to own that snake, even if it is a venomoid. Thanks for sharing the pics, scott & ray