Not so hots?

[Snakecharm]

I was curious what the prevailing opinion is as far as those snakes that are technically venomous but considered to be relatively innocuous. By that I mean hognoses, false water cobras, I imagine vine snakes would also fall into this category as well as other similar snakes.

I must confess that although I would not invite a 'hot' snake into my home, they are fascinating creatures worthy of respect. On the other hand, I think hognoses are pretty darned cute and it would not be out of the realm of possibility for one to end up on my snake shelf. Same goes for a false cobra, they're neat animals.

So here's my question. Are these truly safe animals to have around? Should proper venomous protocols be maintained? Most of what I've read has indicated that the venom is mild and the chances for envenomation from rear-fanged snakes are minimal in a relative sense.

Is this truly an accurate depiction? Or is it deceptive, perhaps even dangerously so?

Thoughts? Hallucinations?

[cobraman]

Just don't put the Boomslang in that class

[Hamster of Borg]

Personally, even with rear fangs, people who become lax in their protocols generally end up regretting it. Always better to be safe than sorry. Though I handle my mangrove and vine snakes with a hook, I would feel like a dork hooking my hognose. All I can suggest is do the research, weigh the risks - don't take one person's "Oh they're harmless!" opinion. Besides... even if they are harmless, I don't know many people who actually enjoy getting bitten - the addition of any venom just makes it that much less enjoyable.

No matter how you look at it, you should still have a locking enclosure - not just to keep the snake in, but to keep other prying fingers out.

I wouldn't put false water cobras into that group either. There is very little known about their venom, not something to mess around with. They can be a real hand full, especially when hungry.

Rav

[Snakecharm]

The thing I find a bit disturbing is that a lot of caresheets and information about these animals don't even mention that they're rear fanged. (When I say these animals, I mean the ones I've mentioned in particular.) And there are also those that will argue and deny vehemently that they're not.

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that *I* am making the mistake of assuming that all rear-fanged snakes are created equal. Then again, I would hope that a person that suggested a boomslang or a coral as a family pet would be beaten to a bloody pulp on this forum. ^_~ However, that's where my concern stems from, because a lot of these 'harmless' snakes are sold that way.

I'm not trying to be alarmist, mind, seems to me that the hognoses are pretty deserving of their reputation. It's some of the other species I've seen referred to in similar terms that concern and confuse me.

[reverendsterlin]

once again the only way to determine is by informed opinion. knowing the LD50 of the venom and combining that with average delievery dose of the species and the effectiveness of it's delievery method gives a person something to decide by. Even variations within a population can be large, consider the differences between the eastern and western populations of scutalus in Arizona. Also in many instances research results may be very limited due to a lack of funding or desire. The use of different components of venom in the medical field is slowly changing this but it will be some time before the 'definitive answer' is decided for many species.

[fatboy]

Coral's are elapids and are not rear fanged.

[JoeBradley]

You beat me to it, Barry.

[Vanan]

Though I handle my mangrove and vine snakes with a hook, I would feel like a dork hooking my hognose.

Hmm..that would make me one I guess. Especially after having Katt get bit by a hog who had cataracts and an appetite like no other, I'm taking no chances. I, for one, am not into boasting about a bite from a hog, so no bites equals good. Hence the use of the mini hook when hooking them out of their rubbermaids. But then again, I guess should be a whole new topic.

As for how to keep rear-fangs. Either all out venomous protocol or not. Mostly depends from species to species. A good read would be Dr BGF's paper on colubrid "venom". One that same note, I would be most wary when working with FWC's.

Hmmm, moderators, maybe another forum on venomous colubrids? lol

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi Snakecharm

Its very much a sliding scale (pun fully intended ;-) Basically, with only a couple very narrow exceptions such as the North American 'Elaphe-types' e.g. Lampropeltils/Pantherophis/Pituophis, pretty much everything else is technically venomous (including Asian Elaphe-types such as Coelognathus radiatus (radiated ratsnake) and Ptyas).

Four variables need to be considered:
1. Amount of venom put out.
This ranges from tiny (e.g. radiated ratsnake) to massive (e.g. Telescopus dhara).
2. Toxicity of venom.
This ranges from fairly mild (e.g. Hydrodynastes gigas) to extremely potent (such as a couple of the Boigas and Telescopus dhara which are deep into elapid-level neurotoxicity, being almost on par with death adders!). The Colubrinae family (e.g. Boiga, Coluber) in particular are packed full of neurotoxins. The Xenodontinae family (e.g. Heterdon, Hydrodynastes) contain much less in the way of neurotoxins and the venoms contain abundant amounts of mostly local acting enzymes.
3. Effectiveness of venom delivery.
All are using it in prey capture even the ones without big back teeth still have teeth and can penetrate the skin, just need a bit more time. Delivery ranges from basic (e.g. radiated rat) to very advanced (e.g. Psammophis mossambicus).
4. Antivenom.
Only two 'colubrid' antivenoms are made, one against the colubrine snake Dispholidus typus (boomslang) and the other against the natricine snakes in the Rhabdophis genus (Asian keelbacks). None for any of the others and the elapid antivenoms are no help.

Combining those four factors gives the range of danger. The relative danger ranges from trivial (garter snakes) to extremely high (e.g. boomslangs).

Have a read of the paper that Vanan mentioned.
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/BGF_Colubroidea_RCMS.pdf

All the best
Bryan

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Nothing related to the subject but, what part of Oklahoma are you from? Xain

[Snakecharm]

Ack, I'm sorry, thought I'd read that somewhere about corals. I'll sit in the corner now.... *puts paper bag on head*

Oh, and I live in OKC. =)

[chas*e]

I use a hook and whatever hot protocols, rather than freehandling. I just don't need the 2 day headache and the swollen bodypart. Hard to roof with a stiff hand

[JD@reptiles]

Rear fanged snakes are what i like to call "Semi Hots":p. i handle all my rear fanged snakes with a hook as well, except the hognose snake... although i have seen one person use a hook. the only rear fanged snakes i keep are chrysopela oranata, langaha nasuta, ahaetulla nasuta, prasnia, and one is questionable. used to have a leptophis mexicanus. that was a very cool snake. all together i have 13 rear fanged snakes. i find the flyingsnakes the HARDEST to use a hook on, because they like to leap off and try and glide and they are as fast as racers. and now i am just chatting on about these snakes, so thats all im gonna say ,lol :p.

Take care

Jordan :D

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi Jordan

Hmmmmm..... flying snakes ...... highly agile, hyper arboreal species .... yep, thats hard to hook ...... funny that ;-)

Cheers
B

[Vanan]

Oh and one of them Chrysopelia wants to "fly" on over to Leader, SK!