Cooling in general

[jwsporty]

Hey folks,

Is it a good idea to cool all your babies (all kings and one milk), whether you are going to breed them in the spring or not? I was considering putting all those who are a year or older down for the winter and just working with the kids. All are healthy, eating well and have good body weight. Your views?

Thanks

Jim

[snakemann87]

I dont see a need if your not breeding? But I have read cooling isnt always neccesary.......

[jwsporty]

It is not so much a need as it is a chance to let them rest. And yes I have also heard that breeding can commence without the cooling process. Basically I was just wanting to give them some time to "re-charge their batteries" in a matter of speaking.

[vanderkm]

We cooled every colubrid over a year of age last winter even though we were only breeding two females. That was the first year we had cooled them. Our decision was based on desire to simulate a normal environment for them, give their bodies a break and selfishly to give ourselves a break in both time for care and food consumption. We found that it stimulated growth and appetite in several guys that hadn't fed well up to a year of age. It gave us more time to spend with the younger snakes. One of our unbred females did lay slugs (first time ever when we have had her for years without cooling) but I don't know if that was a coincidence. Our breeding was successful.

I will definately cool them over winter from now on - likely will keep out hatchlings, but plan to cool any of those that are not feeding strongly for a short interval. It also makes time for a winter holiday as it is much easier for us to get away if we don't have to worry about someone else caring for active feeding snakes and their heat requirements. Friends are more willing to check sleepy snakes!

mary v.

[reverendsterlin]

I cool all of mine(usually) unless one has a weight problem. Basically I do it to save 2 months feeding expenses.

[MarcB]

Absolutely nothing wrong with cooling neonate colubrids.

I've only cooled hatchlings that were problematic feeders or non feeders and most would come of the big sleep with an appetite.

I like to keep my hatchlings up to two years feeding prior to cooling to maximise on the faster growth window. If a smaller female that has borderline minimal size for breeding should be cooled, the risk of egg binding is greater then if she wasn't cooled.

There are pro's and cons to cooling, if breeding is not the objective for older adults, then most AD colubrids system slows down around late fall only to pick back up spring time. We herpers feed our snakes way too much anyways and they tell us they've had enough...

Good topic

[jwsporty]

Well it's nice to know I wasn't off base on this. As my first attempt at breeding will happen in the spring with my coastal calis. When is the best time to put down colubrids for their rest? I have heard... end of oct, end of november. And for how long? I have again heard 2,3, or 4 months. I won't commence breeding until everybody is ready but at the same time I don't want to miss any windows of opportunity. I was considering any of the babies that weigh 100 grams or greater. Last measure day showed most of the group landing in this range. From 104 to 954 grams. Do you feel this weigh to be too low for cooling. Also what is the optimal temp for cooling 55, 60 or 65 degrees.

Marc or Mary, maybe you can help out on this one. When I got my breeding group 2.3 of coastals, I was informed that one or maybe two MIGHT be gravid, and I stress MIGHT. Apparently the person I got them from said they were mating prior to him selling them to me. Now the question, if this is the case what is the average time line from copulation to egg laying. I have read 38-45 days, and I have read 60-65 days. I have noticed one of the girls is definitely getting larger and unless my imagination is running wild I could swear that there are a series of symetrical lumps. Yet I can't feel anything but i will be the first to admit I don't 100% know what I should be looking for. Given the time lines to egg laying the 38-45 days would be out of the question as I have not paired up anybody from the group, BUT if it is 60-65 days then the timing is bang on. As I took delivery on July 20th and he had mentioned that they were copulating a few days before that. As of today it would be 65 days and she is deep in shed right now. (possibly the pre-egg laying shed?) She has been on a diet of both rats and mice but mainly rats in the 65 to 95 gram range and she will easily take down 2 and sometimes three in a sitting with no problem. Defecation is always on day 4 and feeding is a 7 day schedule

If this is in fact the case, how is this going to affect the cooling process. MY guess is that she would have to be kept out of the loop, so to say, and I would have to keep pumping her with food to get body weigh back up. Her last weight was on Sunday and she is tipping the scales at 893 grams.

So many questions, so little time.

Thanks guys and gals

Jim

[reverendsterlin]

I live in the desert southwest so "winter" here isn't much. I usually give a final feeding about the last week of November, the nights are usually low 40's-high 30's and slowly cool over the next 2 weeks, watching for the last defication befor dropping below 70. I start warming everyone the last week of febuary and try to get meals in everyone the first week of march, so about a 2.5-3 month brumation. I feed everyone that will eat everything they will take but the male corns usually only get 2-3 meals before they go blue, stop eating, and on the hunt for girls, females usually will get 5-6 meals before they go blue and males are introduced immediately after the female sheds and left for a week or possibly a few extra days if no matings were observed. Males are removed, females are fed, and the process repeated after the next female shed. Usually have eggs sometime between early May and mid June(usually about the time the males start eating again).

[vanderkm]

Bear in mind that my responses are based on very limited experience - but for what it's worth -- The colubrids we brumated last year were offered food for the last time on October 20 - most ate and about half shed between then and when we started cooling - they went into smaller tubs with water only and no supplemental heat November 15 (night temp of 72 degrees). We dropped temps in two stages - on Dec 1 to 64-67 degrees and then Dec 15 to room at 54-57 degrees. They were checked weekly, water replaced and kept at about 55 degrees til March 1 when we brought them back to 64 degrees, then 70 degrees March 8 and gradually warmed to where they were feeding by March 20.

One male jungle corn that friends were borrowing for breeding was brought out mid January, was feeding by Feb 1 and bred successfully by mid Feb - so one month of cooling was definately enough for good fertility with him.

In terms of your potentially bred female cal king - I don't think you can predict lay time very well based on breeding date due to sperm retention - should depend more on when the female ovulates than actual breeding dates but ovulation is tied to pre-lay shed which I think is supposed to be a better and more consistent predictor for a given female. We found that the activity level of the females was just unreal before their pre-lay shed. Some ate like pigs and one went off her food completely, but all of the ones we had lay this year were absolutely nuts - pacing the perimeter of the cage, constantly on the go before their pre-lay shed and after. The breeding to lay interval we had with honduran was 61-63 days, pre-lay shed to lay intervals were 7, 14 and 8 days - for honduran, corn and king (but the king was slugs) and I don't have a breeding date on the corn - we had only had her a month when she laid.

On being able to feel eggs present before a pre-lay shed - I was convinced i could feel lumps when I let the females slide over my hand - very much like the string of beads that I think Kathy Love describes - but I wonder if it was wishful thinking. The honduran showed swelling of the back of her body, but neither the corn nor the king showed any visible indication and they had clutches of 19 and 28.

When we bred the hondo, we didn't introduce the male until after the female had shed - I was quite concerned about aggession so wanted to make sure both had fed a lot - but there were no problems. We did not get great fertility - I am not sure about whether it would be improved by doing more breedings ro by breeding before the first shed - may try a few different things this year. We are going to start cooling a bit earlier and bring them out by mid February instead of waiting for March this year.

good luck with your female - seems perhaps doubtful that she will lay, but if she does it should be within 2 weeks and even if you keep her out to feed her up this year - she will have given you an early clutch!

mary v.

[jwsporty]

Hey Mary and Rev,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I guess the last dinner bell will be near the end of October. I am now suspect that my interpretation of the female was probably nothing more then retained fecal matter. She let me know that there are no problems with her internals by leaving a HUGE pile for me to clean up. But I am still going to keep my eyes on the two females that may be affected.

Jim