CB reps..Natural vs Morphs

[chas*e]

I have an ethical question reguarding Selective breeding of Reptiles(snakes for instance) VS -the keeping of species in the natural lineage that millions of years of evolution developed....I argued with an,"oldtime" herper, who made some valid points of NOT CB morphing of snakes(ball pythons, BCIs.ect..) because the snakes were not designed genetically/naturally to survive in the morphed selectively breed fashion and that one should keep the snakes true to the species....What are the thoughts of the sSnakeSs users

[jaybox_reptiles]

Well i do belive in getting the different morphs and what not i think it is a good learning expearince for all the herpers in the world but i strongly disagree with cross breediong species

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Personally, I have nothing against morphs as an animal, Im a sucker for Leucistics.. I am however against the motive of what most of them bring.. As I see it, most people don't think an animal is worthy unless it was an expensive morph, like say ball pythons. I always hear, You got a ball? Normal balls suck, hell they only cost 30 bucks, so as I see it, not many are in it for the joy of the animal, just an easy way to make money, whether it is it's a ball or a corn, a morph is more pricy even if it is a few bucks.. I agree that snakes should be kept true blooded and clean, but then again as everyone says, this is a captive propagation at hand..
I prefer my animals in the wild/natural colors, I find them truely more captivating than "High-End" (Dont even talk as if they are living creatures) individuals..
Just my thoughts and hope it made sense.. Im hyped up on raisin bran and sugar..
Xain

[chas*e]

I am, personally, torn over this question. I believe that "we" should not mess with nature but there are many points that could be made in defense of Selective breeding...True most genetic anomalies such as amelanistic/albino reptiles do not survive in the wild. The albino would be picked off soon after birth, natural selection being what it is and all..but in most cases the "normal" creature is in grave danger at this time also, from "man-made" enviormental threats...So, it could be one of those,"lesser of two evils" type of answer.......also...on an economic side....the selling of morphs is more lucrative than selling of normal animals....who knows?

[jaybox_reptiles]

i dont no to many big workds for me lol

[justinO]

I think that selective breeding to bring out some traits is fine. However, when i hear of line breeding and inbreeding hets with their parents and stuff to get a specific morph, that just doesn't sit right with me. Sure, the genetic anomolies will occur in nature, as they have for thousands of generations, so, i don't see a problem with breeding them in captivity, just don't inbreed.

just my $0.02

Justin

[Jeff_Favelle]

Most morphs come from wild stock. We aren't creating any new genes. SO the arguement for not breeding morphs is mud. Its like saying, don't breed nice Jungle Carpets together because they wouldn't do that in the wild.

Dumb.

[ChunkyMunky]

Indeed.

[Lisa]

We already selective breed the nicest and brightest looking snakes to the point where sometimes the CB snakes don't look anything like the WC snakes...

[Linds]

I don't see any moral dilemma in breeding morphs. True in the wild they do usually get pegged of relatively early due to lack of camouflage, but most of the morphs *are* produced from wild animals out in nature, as Jeff mentioned. There are some designer morphs that are not naturally occuring, such as Bumble Bee balls. I don't really see any harm in this however, these animals are not in the wild, hence they do not need to look like the standard to survive. If ones wish is to preserve the natural look of the species then I wish them the best of luck... they will not be producing fantastic looking clean specimens... in captivity we start selectively breeding for appearances, this is not a natural thing. In the wild animals breed to survive and often wild models are not as nice looking as those that have been bred generation after generation to acheive a certain polished look. Don't get me wrong, you will find some beauties out there, but it isn't the standard. Personally, I prefer a great looking "normal" to a morph any day. That's just me though... morphs just don't do it for me. I don't see anything wrong though. It's not like these animals are being bred in an effort to replenish wild populations or whatnot. It's not messing with nature if nature produces them. If you want to take that arguement, then by the same token allowing an entire litter or clutch to survive would be the same, because that doesn't happen in the wild either ;)

[Wuntu Menny]

Yes-- for maintaining genetic integrity in locale specific morphs and enhancing particular traits through selective breeding (no hillbilly bloodlines!)

No-- for "designer" mutants and inbred, linebred freaks.

my2bts

WM

[BigDan]

Great post Linds

I am going to base my argument on boas as that is what I am most familiar with so here it goes

I personally like morphs but I also really like and appreciate locality specific animals. Unfortunately many of the locales in captivity are not anywhere near pure often times. One mans suri is anothers guyanan or peruvian. Are they seperate locales or are they just different looks present in one population. Info on catch locations is often very poorly documented or is even falsified.

The other thing is that many locales are also very inbred most people do not realize that all of the Bolivians in captivity are descended from a group of something like less than 10 animals. Other locales which would be inbred would be the many of the Island boas, Hoggs, Crawl Cay, Corn Island etc. Many of the locales are also selectively bred for high widows peaks, partial striping, ladder tails, really red tails etc. The way some of the locales look now may not be what they actually looked like in the wild per say.

Sometimes I find the whole morph dedate rediculous we are not breeding these animals to release back into the wild. It would be like saying you are breeding teacup poodles in the hope of one day reestablishing a wild population in Banff National park. Additionally you could not even release a pure locality snake back into its so called original habitat if you wanted to. Are we releasing Hoggs back onto the Island to bring the population back from extinction.

Alot of times these so called locality purists slag the morph people but at the same time I have seen these self professed purists go ahead and breed a nicaraguan boa to a columbian boa because they did not have a mate for the nicaraguan at the time. And just for this reason many of of the wild type boas out their are a mish mosh of various locales and no more pure and sometimes more inbred than my snow boa. At least with the snow I know her grandparents were unrelated this cannot be said of alot of the wild type boas out there. I also beleive if you do breed morphs buy unrelated animals, outcross, ask where the parents came from etc inbreeding is not good for any type of animal or people why would inbreeding be all right in snakes or other reptiles.

Lastly it is the morphs that drive the hobby. It was not until people started looking at some of these animals as investments that we really made some strides in captive breeding and husbandry. It was the albino boa and ball python that really brought these snakes to the forfront, it was the albino leopard gecko which made people go nuts over these great little lizards. However you may feel about the morphs if it was not for them we would not have what we have today.


Just my 2 cents.

Dan

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Lastly it is the morphs that drive the hobby.

So true, to bad most of the breeders aren't in it for the animals.. That's one reason why I don't care much for other areas of this interest, We have lazy herpers who 90% of the time hunt along roads, I see no glory in this and many others only dig the money an animal can bring.. Personally, I could do without what most of this interest of ours includes. But hey, easy way to make money; Who can argue with that?

[Jeff_Favelle]

I would much much much rather make money working with animals that I am absolutely enthralled with rather than joining the rat race and contributing to the depletion and abuse of the planet's resources. Find me ONE job that doesn't in one way affect the planet adversely. You can't. Even driving to work every day is bad. Not thanks. Working with animals is nothing to be ashamed of, I don't know why you think people should feel bad.

But hey, easy way to make money; Who can argue with that?

Yeah? Methinks you have never bred an animal before. Let alone hundreds, which is what it takes to actually make money. You seem to think its ok to keep animals in captivity, and I'm sure you like to acquire captive bred animals (if not, then let's stop this discussion). So people are supposed to give you these animals for free?

Wow, life must be grand at the top.

[Kurzix]

easy way to make money? breeding your own animals steps you up to the entrepeur level. Owing your own buisness for 20+ years IS where most millionaires come from. However for every 1000 new buisness, only one will survive for more than 3 years. Now with all the blood sweat tears and luck it takes to run your own buisness, and really profit from it, is it realy easy money? Or is easy money, going to work punching in doing the same thing over again, knowing you will make money?

[Colonel SB]

There is a big difference between working with that is already there like recessive genes such as albanism or any number of morphs. With traits like those your not messing with nature because the animals already carry those genes from the wild. As for hybridising animals to introduce a trait that is wrong and should not be doen.

[BoidKeeper]

I'm with Jeff in both his post, same points I would have made.
I do see both sides of the coin though. You'll never find a creamsicle corn in the wild or an albino spider ball, chances of either are very very rare anyway. That's why I like the piebald ball python so much. In my opinion it is the most stunning naturally occuring morph that could be found in the wild. The chances of some of these designer morphs popping up in the wild are almost next to imposible but that doesn't mean we shouldn't produce them. Combining different colours with different patterns is why I like corns so much. The possibilities are almost endless.
Cheers,
Trevor

[eyespy]

I used to be more in favor of morphs than I am now. Some of the species where folks get really morph crazy are starting to show real immune system problems. Bearded dragons, leopard geckos and cornsnakes being the prime example. All of these guys are having problems with endemic adenovirus, paramyxovirus, and crypto and inbreeding is the suspected cause of their low disease resistance.

Most animals that have gone through the pet trade have been exposed to these pathogens and are fully capable of fighting them off, but the leos, beardies and corns get sick at a much higher rate.

[gauts28]

I think Jeff as a point. I don’t think people who breeds’ reptiles are in for the money. If you calculate the cost of good specimens, the food for them, enclosures, the time to take care of them and all, it will probably cost you more than the revenue generated by them. So I think they have to be in it for more then just the money. It’s the offer vs. the demand. It’s true that I have a preference for the normal ones but I don’t mind at all the morphs

[chas*e]

I am gad to see that most responces to my post dealt with the overall welfare of the reptiles themselves and not a financial incentive as the primary drive....As I added before, selective breeding is, in my opinion, a benifit to the species as a whole; as Big Dan stated,"not as if we are going to re-establish a threatened population by releasing them into the wild". I am for working with the animals. If they are still breathing as a species then who cares what colour they are....

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I don't know why you think people should feel bad.

When did I say this? Forgive me but I was under the impression that this thread was about posting opinions on what WE thought on the topic.. I could be wrong.

Yeah? Methinks you have never bred an animal before. Let alone hundreds, which is what it takes to actually make money.



Think as you must.. So lets say I bred 1.1 balds which are going for what $17,500 - $7,500 depending on the seller, sex, age and the whole whatknot, so lets go about $10,000 on these animals.
I shot off 20 grand on adult, proven animals, (Though in reality they would cost more) I spend $500 on a two 48" W x 28" D x 18" H vision, being I only have two animals, I spend 30 bucks on F/T Med. rats for an annual feeding of 40 times, which isn't even correct because of the brumation period, (Friend told me the annual feeding, so the feeding times may or may not be correct according to your schedule) and let's go with butcher paper at say 15 bucks for the annual roll.. I like to use lights so lets use a UV bulb and a spot bulb, because of my habits and thats what, 30 bucks? Your electricity and water bill for the animals alone will run ya' what, not even 30 bucks? But lets say it does and for 12 months, just for humor, that would be $360 just for the animals water and electric.. So lets all this all up together.. 20.000+500+30+15+30+360 = 20,935 dollars.. Wow, holes in my pocket..
Now, my animals successfully reproduced because, I reek with awesomeness, and lets say I get eh, um.. 7 eggs.. Add a few bucks to care for these things, I dont care too, Im tired and my fingers dont go up that high added up, and 6 eggs hatch, that is about right, no? I feed them a few meals, and sell them off for 10,000, which means I get oh about 40,000 back.. Mind you, About. Sure a 20 thousand dollar increase, according to the animal prices and whatknot, maybe not a big increase, but next breeding season, you dont have to buy the animals so you save about 20 grand and you will get about a 60,000 income from the animals, which Im sure you will increase the "Stock" with the earnings, and for the 60,000 a year is a tad if not double the amount that most individuals make, so you are making money, you dont need hundreds of animals to do so.. And for the record I have bred most of the reptiles I keep, and most are either given away to friends or people I respect and sold off at pretty cheap prices, comparing to the going rate of the animals, to people who are interested, and I hear breeding balls is basically simple and imagine it is, so Where's the work in it again? Oh.. it's in the pesky eaters, Gotcha' By the way, this is all American on the prices..


You seem to think its ok to keep animals in captivity, and I'm sure you like to acquire captive bred animals (if not, then let's stop this discussion).

I do, on most occasions, depending on the situation really.. Why should the conversation be dropped if I didn't? We are talking Morphs and Natural colors and the prices of them.. I don't see the validation..

So people are supposed to give you these animals for free?


No, I don't care much for most morphs.. However, getting free animals I care for would be pretty spiffy.. I'm not saying the prices should be free, Im not saying the prices should be dropped, Hell, Im not even saying no one should have them; I am saying that the motive behind most these animals should be different, that's all I merely think..

[Jeff_Favelle]

The point is moot because if you are using spot bulbs to breed Ball Pythons, you WILL NOT be successful and your $20K investment will be lost.

Hence the "not easy to do" label that everyone is trying (unsuccessfully) to tell you.

[chas*e]

You da man, Jeff............don't you hate when you wish you hadn't started a thread......lol

[Jeff_Favelle]

Now, my animals successfully reproduced because, I reek with awesomeness, and lets say I get eh, um.. 7 eggs.. Add a few bucks to care for these things, I dont care too, Im tired and my fingers dont go up that high added up, and 6 eggs hatch, that is about right, no? I feed them a few meals, and sell them off for 10,000, which means I get oh about 40,000 back.. ,

So you had to lay out $20,000 get $40,000? That's a huge risk that a lot of people aren't willing to take. Heck, I just go to work everyday and make $50K without any risk. People who take risks should be renumerated. And they are. My time is worth about $30 an hour to me. So I make sure that things I do generate me that kind of income. Not greed, just my lifestyle.

[Jeff_Favelle]

You da man, Jeff............don't you hate when you wish you hadn't started a topic...lol


ha ha bro, its a GREAT topic! For sure. It all boils down to what turns people's crank. If they aren't outright abusing the animals, who the f**k cares why they breed things? Not me. And let me tell you this; the day I got out of cheap reptiles/amphibians and got into higher end stuff was the day I REALLy started to like this hobby. It had nothing to do with the animals themselves or the income/non-income. It had to do with the people I was dealing with. Its just a different crop of people. I couldn't stand the poor conditions, the constant bartering of prices, the flipping of animals to new homes 20 times a year, etc etc etc. With higher end stuff, its a different clientle. People know what they want and they are usually veterans of the "industry". Trust me when I say that they are 10,000x better/more pleasant to deal with.

[chas*e]

ARE YOU RIGHT ABOUT THAT OR WHAT..LMAO...The higher end clientel are, as a rule, really into the husbandry of the reptiles...Since I started to buy the high end snakes I, (modestly) was forced to learn more about the medical aspects and care of the snakes than most Vets I know..lol...

Just a side thing that just happened..no shyite...my wife just handed me a Canadian watermelon and ..you won't believe it...the damm thing is yellow in the inside not red as usual...MORPH WATERMELON....is that creepy ??

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ewwww........yellow water melon? Take it back to the breeder!! LOL! :D

[chas*e]

Too late I ate it ..was great...no kidding, yellow inside, only available this time of year. Thought it was funny while typing this post..lol

[eyespy]

Ha haa, glad you Canucks finally caught up with us Pennsylvanians. The Mennonites here have been growing yellow melons for centuries. :D

No new morphs under the sun. :p

[chas*e]

LMAO...well I guess I finally did....I was never that swift....lol

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

The point is moot because if you are using spot bulbs to breed Ball Pythons, you WILL NOT be successful and your $20K investment will be lost.

[/FONT] Eh, it works and its been done, may not have been done with the "High-end" but not all of us care to use heat tape..

So you had to lay out $20,000 get $40,000? That's a huge risk that a lot of people aren't willing to take.

Ya' gotta start somewhere, and like you said in a relative sense the more you have the more you get, I was just stating you still make the money, also, what do you do for 30 an hr job?


Its just a different crop of people. I couldn't stand the poor conditions, the constant bartering of prices, the flipping of animals to new homes 20 times a year, etc etc etc. With higher end stuff, its a different clientle. People know what they want and they are usually veterans of the "industry". Trust me when I say that they are 10,000x better/more pleasant to deal with.

I agree with you on this part, and I believe it to be true on the stationary part of the section, however, what about the facts of inbreeding to quicken the production of these high end animals, which is commonly presented when the bloodline and genetics is given.. Personally, I could care less about anyone in the hobby, really. I keep my animals, for the animals.. They may not be on most peoples wanted lists but they make me feel all tingly inside and personally that all that matters.. We'll all have different veiws on things and generally its a no win thing, which is fine and it's obvious to my understanding you care about the creatures you have, as well as any that suffers and its all that matters, even if we do disagree on terms..

The higher end clientel are, as a rule, really into the husbandry of the reptiles...

Chase, correct me if Im wrong but most of the high end breeders, use racks and the racks I see Bob Clark ( to use a well known "high-end breeder")and many others use don't really strike my fancy and most often than not disturbs me, and I've seen it in many other cases and will have to disagree with you on this.. Im aware alot may give ample space but most to my experience do not. I find that small hand keepers ar more enclined to give naturalistic enclosures and care for the animals as it is fit. But we know there are a few who dont.. Another win win section ideas..

Since I started to buy the high end snakes I, (modestly) was forced to learn more about the medical aspects and care of the snakes than most Vets I know..lol...
I got into the specifics from a friend that we constantly competed against, and there's only one person who inspires me the most in my area of the interest and he is a scientist, not a high end anything.. That's who I follow behind, not breeders, but actual true blue scientists, However, I myself will not become one if it is up to me.. Also, how was you forced in to learning the more complex aspects of the hobby? Not counting anything that does with the breeding aspects, because I know you do have to know this area to get what you want, but can you tell me the meaning of terms that vets ( Or at least mine ) commonly use without honestly looking it up, such as Dysecdysis, Dystocia, Ecdysis, Germinal, Helminthes,Invaginated.. You don't have to answer the meanings, just curious if you know them.. Or did you mean more of the physical body section of knowledge such as feeding, or Brain structure, Circulatory system, eukaryotes, or the cardiovascular system? I am honestly interesed to hearing anyones veiws when it comes to the more less studied areas of herps, Most herpers are caught up on the Breeding area and everything that involves the genetic makeup.
However, Im going to stop responding to this post, because as it is, Me and Jeff wont generally agree, which is fine and a prolonged fourm of repetition isn't a favored item. I am still interesed in your interest of fields other than genetic makeup, when you get he chance and will of course read the responses..
Xain

[Jeff_Favelle]

Im aware alot may give ample space but most to my experience do not. I find that small hand keepers ar more enclined to give naturalistic enclosures and care for the animals as it is fit. But we know there are a few who dont.. Another win win section ideas..

MISCONCEPTION, big time. Naturalistic setups are for the KEEPER, not the animal. The animal is built and has mechanisms to USE certain things, be that objects or environmental factors. A bunch of clutter in the cage does not mean its useable materials and it does not translate into a "happier" animal. I see this is going to be tough slogging because your reference point of info is very very skewed and mis-informed. But I will try, for a while.

however, what about the facts of inbreeding to quicken the production of these high end animals, which is commonly presented when the bloodline and genetics is given..

Please tell me how you've been educated on the effects of inbreeding of wild lower vertebrates and what the inbreeding coefficient REALLY means. People alays just say" bla bla bla inbreeding is bad, bla bla", but they really haven't a clue what they are talking about. Inbreeding increases homozygosity, THAT'S IT! If you know of something else that it mysteriously does, please inform us all.



I got into the specifics from a friend that we constantly competed against, and there's only one person who inspires me the most in my area of the interest and he is a scientist, not a high end anything.. That's who I follow behind, not breeders, but actual true blue scientists,


Exact opposite for me. I went to school. I took biology/zoology/conservation for 4 years at university. And let me tell you, I was not impressed with the "scientific community". And I know a LOT of smart people who aren't. I think its a lot of the blind leading the blind and a lot of silly garble-dee-gook (nonesense).


Also, how was you forced in to learning the more complex aspects of the hobby? Not counting anything that does with the breeding aspects, because I know you do have to know this area to get what you want, but can you tell me the meaning of terms that vets ( Or at least mine ) commonly use without honestly looking it up, such as Dysecdysis, Dystocia, Ecdysis, Germinal, Helminthes,Invaginated.. You don't have to answer the meanings, just curious if you know them.. Or did you mean more of the physical body section of knowledge such as feeding, or Brain structure, Circulatory system, eukaryotes, or the cardiovascular system? I am honestly interesed to hearing anyones veiws when it comes to the more less studied areas of herps, Most herpers are caught up on the Breeding area and everything that involves the genetic makeup.


I don't understand that. This IS a reptile HOBBY forum! Of course that's what people are here for! If people like all the anatomy (my major was population studies in University) and other scientific stuff, but who cares? I like sports too, but what does that have to do with anything? Its like going to a hot rod forum and telling everyone there you are disgusted with them because they only discuss thier hot rods and not the physics of the combustion engine.

I find that strange. Not cool strange, weird strange.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

[Naturalistic setups are for the KEEPER, not the animal. A bunch of clutter in the cage does not mean its useable materials and it does not translate into a "happier" animal

You don't say, I never said you had to add clutter and all the BS for a natural enclosure, never even said one should keep them in natural enclosures and I never intended for it to be a main interest of what I am saying, however, most of the housings I see alot of people give snakes is personally sad, even the professionals, I'd name them but I'm sure that's not a good deal on a legal debate for the site, but thats just me, Take it how you see it.. That's fine, do what you do see as you see it, I will do the same.


Inbreeding increases homozygosity

There are some externally visible signs which often occur in inbred snake populations. These include things like scalation irregularities (such as partially fused ventral scales) as well as other deformities, such as deformed jaws. '
GEOGRAPHIC VARIATION IN SCALE AND SKELETAL ANOMALIES OF TIGER SNAKES ELAPIDAE NOTECHIS-SCUTATUS-ATER COMPLEX IN SOUTHERN AUSTRALIA. Author SCHWANER T D Copeia (4) 1990. 1168-1173.' Sure, the effects are most often or not long term effects and there may be many individuals of the actual species, but inbreeding them will of course bring out the severities.. Hell man, look around the oddities dont happen because of an accident, and most of these morphs aren't a wanted result with wild populations, thereas not a good gene..
selective breeding of particular genes runs the risk of losing some of the other genes from the gene pool altogether, which is irreversible. which is in-breeding depression. If in captivity we breed closely related animals for selective reasons and by choice, for instance to enhance a pair of recessive genes to produce a desired colour “morph”, the animals are inbred, however the animals may not shown signs of inbreeding depression. There is an increase in the probability that deleterious recessive alleles will come together. Generation over generation the probability increases alarmingly. Inbreeding reduces genetic diversity in a population, Captive or not, increasing the likelihood that genetic defects will become widespread and deprive a population of the diversity of genes one may exhibit.. In the long term, it is more advantageous for organisms to remain heterozygous; I mean hey, look around age the age depletion of Bearded dragons for the main part, which is the most often used animal when it comes to general inbreeding.. But if you want to see some long term results, look at pure bred dogs and cats, or my friend's Uncle Dad's Mom..


Exact opposite for me. I went to school. I took biology/zoology/conservation for 4 years at university. And let me tell you, I was not impressed with the "scientific community". And I know a LOT of smart people who aren't. I think its a lot of the blind leading the blind and a lot of silly garble-dee-gook (nonesense).

As true as that is, I've yet to find Britton to steer me into the wrong mud hole.. I don't follow or care much about most scientists, as well as keepers, but the ones I lean to seem pretty prolific to me.

This IS a reptile HOBBY forum! Of course that's what people are here for! If people like all the anatomy (my major was population studies in University) and other scientific stuff, but who cares? I like sports too, but what does that have to do with anything? Its like going to a hot rod forum and telling everyone there you are disgusted with them because they only discuss thier hot rods and not the physics of the combustion engine.
Ok, I know this is a fourm, and Im not stating anything about a fourm of any sort.. He mention being in the "High-end area" he was forced to learn more high tech knowledge (Medical and physical) of the animal(s) he kept, more than most vets he knows.. Though he never stated how many he knew, I was curious to why he was forced to learn the more complicated aspects of creatures, that is all.. And me going into a hot rod fourm (Even though it's different, becase we aren't talking live cretures here.) to find them talking the basics I'd be rather bord when it comes to that. "Hi, I have a car, it's a 71' hemi cuda, and its Plumb Crazy Purple.. I can run a 1/4 mile really fast.. Ive done it.." Yes, I have found some boring post here as well as other fourms, why do you think my post count is so low,compared to alot of other members that have came here several months later than me? Sure it may interest them no doubt, but we all have different interests. He stated what he stated, I only asked what he ment in his tense, that is all.. Im not insulting anyone, anything or anyplace, nor am I digusted in any of it.. I may only disaproved of some stuff, but me worring about what other people do will only get me left behind in what I do.. Hell, I don't even know why I am talking morphs, for this long, I've said what I said, you seem to disaprove and think it's sloot of opinion. That is fine, never expected anyone to think the way I do, or why I do, but this is a free fourm, so far, and I figured I'd give my feelings like you and everyone one else who did. And I have't given out specfic info. because you are on the unimited source of information, and the fact calling insultious words to what I type, if you are truely curious look it up, save the banwidth; If you disagree with me, fine, no big. I will still think the same way I do until I die or get bored, as so you seem as well.
Even though, we've said what we said and again, Im not gonna' post again for the saves sake of repetition, if you are truely curious, look it up or PM me and I wll show you my ways, if not cool either way.
Goodday,
Xain