Egg-Bound Cave Rat Update...

[Simon R. Sansom]

Hi Folks,
Some of you might remember a while back I posted regarding my female Caver being "egg-bound" and my subsequent attempts to alleviate the problem by draining the retained ova via a catheter?...

Well,...she passed the original shell, but after she did so, we realized that there was yet ANOTHER retained egg - smaller and hiding right beside the first one, so close that we did not realize that it was there!

Anyway, we repeated the "paracentesis" procedure on this second one and waited to see what would transpire...

...Two weeks ago she passed the remaining egg...unfortunately she also prolapsed an ENTIRE oviduct with the egg...OUCH!!!
A bit of a shock, to say the least.

I applied some alcohol to the area nearest the vent and carefully snipped the 'duct off as close to the vent as possible.
I was worried sick about the possibility of an infection, and of course she went off her feed, just to make sure to drive me crazy, lol!

Anyway, she finally (and aggressively, I might add) started feeding again on the week-end, so I'm feeling a bit better about her chances.

But, here's the big question; Assuming that she survives (and I'm sure that she will) will she breed successfully next season???
I am told by people who would know, that snakes have two oviducts. Did she blow one, or two?

Next year's going to be very interesting indeed.

Thanks for reading!

Simon

[MarcB]

Hey Simon,

I had an AD honduran in more or less the same situation in 2002 with egg binding. Ended up doing some surgery myself to remove three retained eggs she wouln't pass some four months later (Vet wanted $600 to remove them). The oviduct was cut to remove eggs and I didn't even attempt to stich the thin oviduct membrane. She did heal properly and was given a full year to recover. I will attempt breeding her again in 04 and will let you know how everything went if wanted.

Based on the limited data on oviduct i've found, it seems, like you suggested, that the damaged oviduct becomes more/less useless.

Regards

Marc Bouchard
Selectively Bred Serpents

[Simon R. Sansom]

Thanks, Mark. Definitely let me know what happens.

I have heard of snakes producing eggs after a prolapse, but I've never actually seen it.

Cheers!

Simon

[alexandsnakes]

You're right Simon, they do have two oviducts, the right one (I think) is placed more anterior to the left. So she could potentially produce viable eggs from the one side. You know what my concern would be? The ovary, and if you also took out the shell gland. You don't know how much of the oviduct you removed, really, you don't know if the ovary is still in there (and it likely is) and you didn't take her to a vet to have this done, who would have checked those things. Therefore, my concern is that if she ovulates, the ovary no longer has an oviduct connected to the cloaca, so how are the eggs going to be passed? They still form oocytes without a shell gland and oviduct. The yolky eggs may just sit in her body cavity and rot, producing peritonitis, which ain't pleasant. I wouldn't breed her again, and would take her to a qualified reptile vet to have her ovary removed and the rest of the oviduct tidied up. You definately can not keep an unattached ovary in the body like that. Mark's case is very different from yours.

And (for the record) as both a companion animal keeper and an undergraduate vet, I am completely horrified you did this yourself at home. A prolapse of that sort, combined with a dead egg that has been sitting in her for some time, is a serious matter. At the very least, take her to a vet and spring for some antibiotic to ward off infection if you don't feel she's worth the rest of the treatment. Just because she's eating doesn't mean she has no infection, one of my snakes was enthusiastically eating with a throat infection so bad he resembled a pelican with a full beak (which, incidentally, we did try to culture a few times) and continued to eat through aggressive antibiotic therapy.

Sorry if this comes off as a big scold and in favour of forking over tons of money to a vet, but I think when you commit to keeping animals you commit to providing them with the best possible care, which does NOT include home organ removal.

Alex

[Katt]

I believe something similar happened to Corey Wood's female ball python and afterwards she did die. We have had success with aspirating eggs and shells passing with no problems, but have had females pass on and some survive. I believe the longer the egg is in there, the more likely the female will get ill from a rotting egg.

Any female who has had an ovary removed SHOULD NOT be bred. You have no idea what's happening in there and you don't want to kill her next season, that is, if she survives this one.

Sorry to hear about the oviduct. I was concerned about egg binding with a burmese I had and found out that the surgery is only about $300 or so for removal. For an animal like an adult female caver, I feel that amount is more than worth it. If I were you, I wouldn't breed her, I'd just be glad she's survived and grow up one of the babies instead.

Good luck, Simon, I hope everything goes well. It's awful when these thiings happen.

[Simon R. Sansom]

Hi Alex, thanks for the comments.

I've got a pretty thick skin, so I'm certainly not upset by your post in any way, and I appreciate your advice, concern, and opinions. I do, however slightly resent the fact that you make me seem like an uncaring and callous individual, which I am not. You might want to try a more tactful "bedside manner".

...When I reach into a cage to remove an animal for routine maintenance and suddenly realize that there is a foot of oviduct hanging out, I need to do something, and do it fast. As you said, you were worried about infection and so was I at the time. In my opinion, something had to be done then and there. It was obvious that the prolapse had just happened, as it was very moist and there were no blood trails all over the cage, so she hadn't been dragging it all over the place. I was also concerned about her pulling who knows what else out. My animal - my call.

Also, "for the record", vets in my immediate area are completely ignorant of reptiles and won't even look at them, PERIOD (and have told me so on several occasions. Don't vets swear an oath?). Hell, I have a hard enough time getting them to do fecal exams. Also, where am I going to find a vet at 3:00am on a Saturday morning?

And why are you so "horrified" that I did this myself? Let's face it, farmers perform more involved "surgery" than this all the time.

In my humble "layman's" opinion, I did the best that I could for the animal under the circumstances, and I do not apologize in any way for my actions.

Would you be "horrified" to learn that I euthanised one of the baby Cavers myself, because it was malformed?
You may call it "horrifying", but I call it responsible herpetoculure.

Cheers!

Simon

[marisa]

Great point Simon. I can't even IMAGINE what a local vet would do in this situation. Probably kill the snake because they refuse to listen to reason in most cases, especially ones ignorant to reptiles.

I agree that Simon did what he could in this situation. Things can't always be so cut and dry when it comes to medical care, for animals or humans. You'd be suprised at the dental work I have done on myself at home LMAO. O.k. maybe horrified but hey desperate times call for desperate measures.

I think what would have happened is that Simon would have busted his butt finding a half *** decent vet, then paid 600 or more dollars for the vet to do exactly what Simon did, and probably would have made some mistakes seeing as most vets here are cat and dog only. We all don't have the vets we need when caring for exotics in certain locations. Sometimes, local vets, make the situation FAR worse.

Marisa

[Simon R. Sansom]

Okay, pop quiz...

Here's what greets you when you remove your snake from her cage...(Sorry about the fuzzy pic; Sharon and I were shaking).
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/simonsansom/480497picture.jpg

...Early morning. No reliable vets available anway.

What do you do?

My answer: Be concerned mainly with possible infection and more damage from her dragging it around. So I removed it carefully.

Simon

[alexandsnakes]

I'm sorry, I assume that because almost everyone I have seen hasn't wanted to spend any money on sick animals, everyone else must too. While something needed to be done, I just don't think I would have removed it right away. I don't know what vets are like in your area, but I have to say they should at least be able to recommend someone who can help. Everyone tends to know what other clinics do. It's certainly a scary looking thing to find, but I don't think you need to have cut it right away.

However, if your vets are truly that crappy, investing in herp med books would be a good idea if you haven't already. And find someone who will either euthanise her or look for the ovary, because peritonitis is serious. Do you have a local zoo/wildlife rescue/whatever that could recommend someone? They all must have a vet contact at some point.

I'm not saying it wasn't your right under Canadian law to do what you did, but most farmers have to have talked to a vet at some point, and they can have appropriate drugs dispensed to them. I'm not horrified that you euthanised a baby caver yourself as long as you did it in a method accepted to be painless, and that's a separate issue from home surgery. It's just what you've done hasn't really solved the problem. I would like your snake to get better, since I'm not a big fan of animals suffering, and she won't as long as she's left in this state.

And man, you should tell the local vets off for their attitude.

Alex

[Simon R. Sansom]

Alex,

Euthanise her??? Why?...

She's perky, curious, and feeding and pooping as usual - In other words, she's back to her normal self. Yes, I suppose there could still be an underlying problem, however to all intents and purposes this animal is not displaying any symptoms of a "sick" snake. "Suffering" she isn't, as far as I can tell.
?

Simon

[alexandsnakes]

But with an ovary still in there, and your plans to breed her, even if she isn't suffering now, she will be. Even if you don't intend to breed her and keep her as a pet, what happens if she just decides to ovulate anyway, as reptiles sometimes do? It's a nightmare cleaning eggs out of the body, and if your vets are as unhelpful as you say, will you wait until she's got a raging infection and in quite a lot of pain before euthanising her?

Anyway, I was hoping you'd go for finding someone to remove the ovary option :)

Alex

[vanderkm]

Simon,

Thank you for sharing the experience with this female and I hope (and expect) that she will continue to recover. I appreciate your mature and professional approach to dealing with a very daunting problem in an animal that is important to you and to share that experience here.

Most (not all) snakes have paired oviducts and ovaries, but putting this snake through additional surgery to remove the remaining ovary may not be either necessary or desirable. The ovaries are typically very adherent and extensive in reptiles and difficult to remove entirely even in an anaethetised animal. While this ovary will continue to produce eggs under hormonal influences, there is normally a massive overproduction of eggs and natural resorption that takes place of eggs that are not picked up by the oviduct when they are released. It is also demonstrated in reptiles that ova released from one ovary can be picked up by the opposite oviduct.

While there is a risk of peritonitis from unresorbed yolk in the abdomen, it much more commonly occurs when there is infection elsewhere in the body or after trauma. Laying chickens will often have large numbers of large, unresorbed yolks in their body cavity, with no evidence of inflammation. Trauma which ruptures these yolks, can cause inflammation, but as long as the material remains sterile (without bacterial contamination) there is less chance of severe inflammation in the body cavity. That said, yolk is much harder for the body to resorb once the egg is fertilized, so there is some risk from breeding her, but fertilization takes place in the oviduct and so even if she was bred - she has no oviduct on that side and the chance of yolks that are free in the abdomen being fertilized is remote.

I certainly cannot see any reason to euthanize a recovering animal in anticipation of a risk that may not occur and I would not subject her to surgery. I believe you took the proper measures and think it is biologically possible that she may produce fertile eggs again if bred. She would not be eating, passing feces and maintaining hydration if the amputation had damaged the cloaca and it is likely that the alternate horn of the oviduct remains intact, normal and capable of producing complete shelled eggs (assuming cave rats have two - not sure on that). I cannot offer personal experience on what will happen and hope that others will respond with that, but I don't believe that breeding this female will result in significantly more risk to her than to a normal female - there is always risk involved - each keeper decides what they are prepared to accept on behalf of their animals.

And - by the way - veterinarians don't take an oath - they write an exam and by virtue of their license to practice they are bound to operate professionally, but they are typically free to limit their practices to areas in which they are competant - frustating when you have a problem and no one will help - but I think a result of a society all to willing to place blame (and sue) when someone's best efforts fail to give them the result they want.

best of luck with this female and keep us posted,

mary v.

[Simon R. Sansom]

Hi Mary,

I'll tell you, I had a heck of a time even getting the vet to sell me a couple of I.V. catheters to drain the eggs...They wouldn't perform the procedure, didn't want to sell me the equipment, and couldn't even be bothered to refer me to someone who COULD help. I was quite willing to pay them to have it done, and that didn't even tempt them (Anyone who knows me well, knows that I am not a cheap-skate).

And this isn't the only vet I've had problems with. That's why my opinion of the average vet is very, VERY low, indeed. They don't seem to realize that I love my snakes immensely and cut no corners when it come to their husbandry. They don't seem to want to acknowledge that a person can actually care deeply about a reptile.

It's a damned shame.

We did have one young vet here for a couple of years who was excellent and had a great interest in, but not a lot of experience with, reptiles. As a matter of fact, he used to borrow books from my private library on a fairly regular basis, and we had a great relationship. Unfortunately (for me) he ended up moving away to open his own practice, more's the pity.

Thanks also for your supportive comments and info.

Take care.
Simon