People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

[MouseKilla]

I just watched this very strange documentary about chickens, chicken farmers and animal rights activists. Since every member of this site keeps animals and most of us must feed other animals to the ones we keep I was curious what opinions there were on the topic of animal rights. Do you eat meat? How do you feel about farming animals (meaning raising and slaughtering) whether that means for human consumption or just breeding mice for your own snakes? Do the animals die humanely? Do you believe in the dominion of man over animals? There's a million possible questions... If you have more of those or better yet some answers let's have 'em.

[Classic]

Personally, vegetarianism is a personal choice. I eat meat half raw most times. Animal rights activists....As a meat eater, i don't go to Parliment Hill and express my love for sweet beautiful meat.
Unfortunately, most activists are the same people you see for every type of demonstration. Chickens are mindless, egglaying birds put on this earth to sustain us with energy. Keep eating up all that rabbit food if you wish because i'm eating the rabbit. Yummy!
Here's my favorite saying heard from most vegetarians.
"O yeah! I'm a Vegetarian, but i eat alot of chicken".

[marisa]

Frankly I don't care when it comes to farm animals. Kill em and eat em. They were raised for that reason and I am happy to eat anyhting raised for food. I really don't care what goes on behind closed doors. The whole world can't be fluffy and wonderful, some aspects have to be dirty, cruel and bloody. Like farming meat.

It's cold hearted but I don't care.

Marisa

[Pixie]

This is a pretty touchy subject.... I do believe in animal rights but on the other hand I'm a carnivore and love my meat!

The way I see it, humans have been eating meat for thousands and thousands of years going really far back. It is natural for us to eat meat as we evolved doing so, why all of a sudden should that change?

Many vegetarians will argue that we don't need meat to survive and they may be right. But the human body needs a certain level of protein each day which CAN be replaced by a good vegetarian diet but is the hardest part. Even though vegetable products do contain protein they do not contain the complete form of proteins our body needs. To achieve this through vegetarianism is a tough task which a vast majority don't even know how to properly substitute their proteins. It takes a variety of protein sources daily to substitute the protein found in one peice of meat. Why should I trade my good source of protein for ones of lesser quality???

On the other hand I know there is "abuse" and unfavorable living conditions for the animals raised to be food to say the least and it certainly doesn't make me happy. In a perfect world these animals would live a happy normal life until the day they meet their end... But alas, it will take a long time before we get there if we ever do as economics are the most important factor, unfortunately...

Pixie

[LISA127]

Originally posted by marisa
Frankly I don't care when it comes to farm animals. Kill em and eat em. They were raised for that reason and I am happy to eat anyhting raised for food. I really don't care what goes on behind closed doors. The whole world can't be fluffy and wonderful, some aspects have to be dirty, cruel and bloody. Like farming meat.

It's cold hearted but I don't care.

Marisa

That is a horrible thing to say in my opinion!

I eat meat on occasion only, just because I don't like it that much. But I do eat it sometimes. However, animals raised for food should be given the best possible conditions to live in within reason, and should be killed humanely. As the "highest" form of life, we have a responsibility to care for the lower forms of life, whether they are destined to be food or not. There is no excuse for the abuse of farm animals. So, if treated humanely and killed humanely, farming animals for food is fine.

[MouseKilla]

One thing that I've found that vegans don't consider is the destructiveness of agriculture. Entire ecosystems are wiped out by farming the soy that replaces the meat in a vegan diet. What would happen if we all did that? In farming beef, pork, poultry only those animals are killed.

[Invictus]

One of my favorite phrases is "I didn't rise to the top of the food chain to eat like a rabbit. I'll let the rabbit eat the rabbit food, then I'll eat the damn rabbit!" I eat meat on a daily basis. It's my staple diet. Like Pixie said, humans have evolved to be meat eaters. The evidence of this is our canine teeth - ONLY carnivores have those. I am not about to deny nature, whether that be feeding a cute fuzzy thing to a snake, or slaughtering and chowing down on a cow, chicken, or pig.

[daver676]

Originally posted by Pixie

The way I see it, humans have been eating meat for thousands and thousands of years going really far back. It is natural for us to eat meat as we evolved doing so, why all of a sudden should that change?


On the other hand I know there is "abuse" and unfavorable living conditions for the animals raised to be food to say the least and it certainly doesn't make me happy. In a perfect world these animals would live a happy normal life until the day they meet their end... But alas, it will take a long time before we get there if we ever do as economics are the most important factor, unfortunately...

Pixie

I totally agree, and feel the exact same way.

Dave

[marisa]

It may be horrible to say but it definitly how I feel....and frankly I just don't care. I could spend the next 60 years of my life caring and being a frantic farm animal activist and see things never change or I could enjoy a delicious burger. hmmm I choose choice two.

It's my opinion. It's horrible? Sure. Still the way I feel though.

Marisa

[Linds]

LOL I've nicknamed my feeder operation in my basement "The Meat Farm" :p They are not treated or housed like pets, they are fed more protein and fat so they grow faster, and are given less room so they don't use up all those calories. Same can be said about how many of the meat animals we eat (except a lot of them have hormones in place of the higher protein/fat :rolleyes: ). I kill my animals in the quickest manner possible, I consider it to be close to humane... it's not a long, painful death... its quick and to the point. Better than how most farm animals are butchered :(
All that being said, yes I do eat fish and meat. Ourbodies are designed for it... being a veggie would be like forcing a dog or cat to be veggie IMHO. Simply were not designed that way, so I don't know why we should try to fight evolution. I wish that I could say that all the meat I have eaten was from humanely killed animals, and if I could find certain brands that did of course I would only support those kinds, but I'm not gonna try to convert my body against the way its supposed to run because I don't have those options. Its sort of a lose lose situation :(

Originally posted by Invictus
One of my favorite phrases is "I didn't rise to the top of the food chain to eat like a rabbit. I'll let the rabbit eat the rabbit food, then I'll eat the damn rabbit!"

LOL I like that phrase! :p

[KingFfaj]

lets not get in to the whole farming economical mombo jumbo, in england and america the food industry is in a terrible state. 50 years from now, england will have lost its intire food culture, can you even name an english dish or native food?
didn't the american govnment bann the selling of a certain cat fish that came from vietnam because it tasted better then the native catfish? so it now has to be sold under a different name?
Eat Meat, Me Eat Meat

[MouseKilla]

Linds,
As we have seen in other threads the word "humane" means different things to different people. There are brands out there that offer free range meat, claiming that it's more humane. All that means though is there is less control over what they eat. In the case of chickens and their eggs they taste much different because the birds are eating worms and their own feces as well as the grain they're fed. Yum! They still get killed and butchered the same way though. Personally I don't trust companies to regulate their own actions so we have to rely on the law. There are laws concerning the slaughter of farm animals (they usually have to be bled to death) though I don't know if they apply to our feeder rodents. Anybody know about that?

[Luna]

I am a vegetarian and I do keep snakes, lizards and other pets that consume animal matter. I feel more comfortable with them eating meat because I know the animals I am feeding my pets have been well cared for and humanely killed. I consider myself an advocate of animal welfare but I disagree with many of the positions of animal rights groups like PETA who generally have a very poor knowledge of animals and accomplish very little for the amount of money they raise. I believe in vegetarianism not because I hate meat or hate the idea of consuming animals; I just feel that meat is more harmful to the environment and not essential to the human diet. Mouse Killa to address your comments; the production of meat uses much more land than farming vegetarian food. Agricultural animals don’t sustain themselves, a large percentage of our crop land is used to produce food to feed our feeder animals, not to mention how much land is required to maintain the animals themselves. Vegetarianism is a much easier diet on the earth so to speak. So I don’t think we should all stop eating meat, it’s just not going to happen, but I do advocate eating less meat (we really don’t need very much at all to get our protein) and supporting humane farming methods…

[spyderman]

I, like most people on this earth, eat meat on a daily basis. I'll feed my snakes meat because thats what they eat, it's all they eat. Has anyone tried to produce a vegetarian snake??? Impossible.

I hate the vegi activist who hates the slaughter of "Poor defencless animals" Then when you look at them, they are wearing leather jackets & Jesus sneakers. Might as well eat the meat, they're wearing the skin.

[Classic]

Luna: Good on you as a vegie not to come down on our opinions.
For the animal activists though...If you want the animals to live in prestine conditions and have a happy life before the slaughter, think what it would cost us all for the meat after all that comfort and plush surroundings.

[ohh_kristina]

I am a vegan and I do keep snakes. We do not have canine teeth, we have eye teeth. They are not pointed and sharp like a dog, bear, or lion. I am not trying to argue, but there are many scientific studies done to prove this. I have many books on the subject.
My motto is "live and LET LIVE". I kill mice for my snakes, but they are meant to eat meat. I feed my dog and cats meat, because they are meant to eat meat.
I am also vegan because of the healthy aspect of it. I do not consider myself an animal rights activist. I do not go to demonstrations or preach to people at all. People can do whatever they please. Veganism/vegetarianism is a personal choice, and it's a major lifestyle change..i wouldn't push that on anyone.
This is a touchy subject, and like I said, I do not want to argue. These are just my views.
You have your belief system, and I have mine.

[Pixie]

ohh_kristina: It's really nice to get your point of view in this and said in such a nice way :) When these issues come up in discussion they too often turn into flaming and it's great that it hasn't happened from either side of the "debate"

Can you explain the healthy aspect of veganism/vegetarianism? i have taken nutrition classes and in my studies have found that most vegetarian diets to be unsufficient. It takes a very disciplined person to follow a vegetarian diet and to do it right, especially long term. In my personal experience, all the vegans and vegetarians I have known (quite a few) were quite sickly and always had a cold, flu, or what not. They also had digestive troubles on a regular basis. These are just a couple of aspects which make me doubt the health aspect of this choice of diet.

Wether are teeth are canines or remnants of them, we did evolve to eat meat. The problem today is that we eat too much of it but that is another issue altogether!

Pixie

[MouseKilla]

I dispute the idea that more land is used to farm animals. A thousand pounds of meat takes up a whole lot less space than a thousand pounds of soy. I would love to see evidence to the contrary. I believe that we have a right to eat and use lower forms of life as a means to survive. For those who believe animals have as much right to live as humans I have to ask if they think that insects share this right and if so what about vegetation or other life forms like viruses? Do they not acknowledge that some forms of life are more important than others or should we wait till the lettuce dies of natural causes and serve it up with some roadkill stolen from scavenger animals, but not before we gently remove every living maggot from the carion so as not to harm any living thing? Say, it's lunch time isn't it?

[Steele]

if we wernt soposed to eat them why are they made of meat?

[BAZ]

I can respect a person's decision to become a vegetarian if it is as a protest to the way animals are kept before slaughter. We had this whole mad cow problem because cows were being fed ground up cows. Apparently chickens are also fed ground up chicken.

This is how I see it:

We eat way too much meat.. more than we need to. Our demand for meat causes animals to be kept in inhumane conditions.

As a muslim my belief is that an animal should be treated well and slaughtered quickly. This means not keeping them in crowded conditions, not slaughtering one animal in front of another, and not feeding a herbivore meat.

I think a better choice for us would be to try and stick to free range eggs, chicken etc. It may be more expensive but it is the better choice I think. We also need to cut back on the amount of meat we eat... North Americans have a much higher rate of heart problems and this I think is caused by our high meat consumption. Its all about balance in the end I think.

[ohh_kristina]

Steele: Dogs and cats are made of meat - does that mean it's okay to eat them, too? What about other humans? They are made of meat! Shouldn't we be eating them, too, then?

Pixie: Here are some articles and web sites that talk about vegan health. I have been a vegan for almost two years now. My skin has cleared up, my bowels never give me problems, and I have lost a significant amount of weight. I am almost never sick, except for the regular sinus infection every summer. Being vegan is more than not eating meat and dairy products. It's about eating healthy. You can't just cut out meat and dairy products and eat junk food and bread and pasta. That's not the way it works.
Anyway, here are the links:

http://www.vegsource.com/
http://www.newveg.av.org/
http://www.thevegetariansite.com/health.htm
http://www.vegfamily.com/
http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/


I have more, if you would like to see them. Here are some books (just a few) that I have read and found very interesting:

Animal Liberation by Peter Singer
Turn off the Fat Genes by Neil Barnard, M.D.
Milk A-Z by Richard Cohen
You Don't Need Meat by Peter Cox

I hope this helps you understand!

[Steele]

so as long as it is not cuddly is it ok?

[ohh_kristina]

Steele: No, I didn't say that. What are you saying exactly? I don't agree that it is necessary for humans to eat any animals at all.

[Pixie]

Thanks a bunch Kristina, I knew there had to be some documentation. I will read through it when I have more time.

I know I'm not an expert so I won't say which diet is best. I just like to be informed.

It's nice to hear of someone being as disciplined as you are because they are pretty rare. You are right that just because you cut out animal products doesn't make you healthy. I guess that the vegetarians I have met thus far aren't doing it right.

I wouldn't be able to do it myself as I love dairy products way too much but I am looking forward to reading up on this.

One little question: Don't you miss jello?!! hehe When I found out that gelatin is an animal product I was quite surprised!

Pixie

[ohh_kristina]

I missed Jello for a while, and then I discovered at type of jello that was animal product free! It starts with a K..I can't remember the name of it right now. I haven't had any in a while. It's pretty good, though. I used to eat it quite a bit. If I remember it, I will come back to this thread and let you know.

[Invictus]

ooh_kristina - I can probably show you just as many studies, written by meat eaters, about how NOT eating meat will kill you 10 years sooner. (And in fact, I have read scientific studies that show that meat eaters do outlive vegans by an average of 10 years.) Your sources are biased. So are mine. There is just as much proof against veganism as there is in favor of it.

I saw on the news one day, they had an interview with the oldest living Albertan. He was a man celebrating his 108th birthday. When they asked him the key to his longevity he said (paraphrasing here of course) "Red meat. I've eaten it every day of my life since I grew teeth, and I'm eating it every day now."

So, pick your sources, and pick whatever information backs up your own personal cause. That's the way I see it.

[LISA127]

Originally posted by BAZ


As a muslim my belief is that an animal should be treated well and slaughtered quickly. This means not keeping them in crowded conditions, not slaughtering one animal in front of another, and not feeding a herbivore meat.




Thank you! More ppl need to think like this! Yes, it is fine to raise animals for meat. But anyone who has no problem with seeing any living thing abused, hurt, and suffering is someone I really can not trust to be a compassionate, caring human being.

[MouseKilla]

Baz,
I am fully in support of having strict standards for how meat is produced and part of that is controlling what they are fed and I agree that doing that means not feeding herbivores meat or steroids or anti-biotics. As I posted above though, in the case of chickens, free-range means that there is little control over what these animals are eating. Chickens will eat worms and their own feces. They do have more room but chickens quite often injure eachother in this situation, they fight instinctively. The enclosures they are normally kept in are small for a variety reasons. The first is economic. More space costs more money not to mention it is more harmfull to the surrounding environment. Other reasons include that it prevents the animals from running off their calorie intake and as I said prevents them from eating undesirable things and harming eachother. On top of that their are laws about how animals can be slaughtered.

[ohh_kristina]

Invictus - Yes, you are right. I have seen these documents. The reason I am vegan, and STAYED vegan, though, was the positive results. I feel better about myself, physically and mentally. My body is telling me that it is happy being vegan. I don't crave meat anymore, and in fact, when I eat it..I get very sick. My bowels do not know how to handle it anymore.
Veganism is not for everyone, like I said before. That doesn't mean that you should attack vegans and try to prove them wrong (I'm NOT saying that you are doing that, I am just speaking in general), and I also disagree with vegans who try to convert meat eaters. If someone asks me my opinion or any questions, I answer with glee, but you will never see me push my views on someone else. I don't believe in that.

[LISA127]

Originally posted by Steele
so as long as it is not cuddly is it ok?

Oh, pleeeaaaase......don't start this again. You, as well as the rest of us, know there is no reason we need to be eating dogs and cats!

[GI Joe]

Sorry but I have been in a time and place where dog, and horse were on the menu of the day. I have eaten both out of necessity and they weren't half bad.

I think we are designed to eat meat but I think most of us eat way too much.

Jeff

[MouseKilla]

The animals we choose to eat is strictly a question of culture. Eating cats, dogs and even snakes are things that are done in other parts of the world. I don't see what difference it makes.

[Pixie]

That is very true, cultural upbringing greatly influences our sense of morals thus to us north americans it is discusting and cruel to eat cat and dogs.

Why is it worse to eat a dog steak than a beef steak? People will say that dogs are intelligent and emotional. I'm sure I can find you a bunch of cow lovers that would say the same about cows.

I find it funny that people think it's fine to eat a slaughtered veal, lamb, cow, etc. but the thought of eating cat of dog repulses them and usually incites harsh judgement of the person who does.

I won't judge someone for what they eat! There are more important things in life to worry about. Would I personally eat some dog or kitty, nope. I'm quite happy with the meats I eat now which is a pretty good variety.

Pixie

[MouseKilla]

You're right and the next time my cat claws the couch his a** is goin' on the bar-b. LOL!

[Snakecharm]

I've got to go with Invictus on this one... and I'll tell you why.

I've spent my whole life overweight and in various degrees of, while not poor health, health that could cause me problems later on. High blood pressure, warning signs of diabetes, etc.

Six months ago my best friend and I decided to go on Atkins/low-carb together. I'd read Dr. Atkins' book a few years ago, and kind of halfway tried it and later walked away. This time I took it to heart and made a lifestyle change.

Suffice to say, I'm not looking back. In six months I've lost nearly sixty pounds. My blood pressure is perfect, without medication. Blood sugar levels and cholesterol, also perfect. I have more energy, I feel good about myself, and unlike every other diet I've ever been on in my life, I don't feel deprived or starved or like I'm being punished.

Eating meat is not what kills us. Eating meat is natural. What kills us is sugar, refined flours, and the pre-packaged, chicken-fried, sugar-coated assortment of 'treats' that our modern society downs by the handful.

I eat whatever lean meat I want, fresh vegetables, nuts, and those fruits that are naturally low in sugars such as berries and melons. I avoid starches like the plague. I can't tell you the last time I've had pasta, and while I occasionally indulge in a nibble of bread, it's a rare exception.

Think about it from this perspective. Mankind spent a whole lot longer as hunters and gatherers than they have as farmers. Hunters and gatherers hunt animals for meat and then gather what nuts, fruits, roots, herbs, etc they can find naturally growing because they don't cultivate their own. Our bodies are not built to live on all the carbs that we modern folk shovel into them.

I respect that some of you have chosen to be vegan or vegetarian, and if it has brought you good health, wonderful. However, it is a lifestyle choice that is not the only or necessarily the best one, anymore than mine is. I do think that I am at far less risk of dying of a heart attack now than I was when I was attempting to follow a low-fat, high carbohydrate way of eating.

Just my 2 cents.

[J-Man]

Snakecharm! YES! I saw exactly where you were going with this one. I completely agree. My dad has Dr Atkins on his radio show a while back... sad to hear that he died though :(

Anyway, yeah people often criticize that diet and say it'll cause high blood pressure and high colesterol etc... but it actually is great for all of those things.

[ohh_kristina]

Did you know that Dr Atkins himself suffered a heart attack? This is not what he died of, though it did happen.

[J-Man]

Look at those whacky viking guys. They ate nearly all meat and the bread they did eat was hardly refined at all. And they were in great shape... when they died it wasn't from health problem :)

[J-Man]

Yeah I did hear that. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I THINK he had the heart attack BEFORE he came up with the idea for the diet...?

[GI Joe]

Didn't the vikings die of food poisoning from eating spear tips?

[Snakecharm]

Nah, it was the sauce they put on the spear tips. Nasty stuff.

[Pixie]

This has become a very interesting discussion for me and I thank everyone for their respectful points of views. It's really nice to see a touchy subject discussed well :)

Snakecharm: Your input is very informative too. Like I said about the vegetarian diet, I can't say if the high protein Atkins diet is any better. I am very happy that it works for you and others with good results. What more can you ask for!

What I find very interesting about these 2 opposite diets (vege/meat) is that they have one BIG thing in common. Both eat heathier foods and have cut out all the crap in their diet. Wether it is choosing to eat lean meats or vegetables & tofu, both diets highly restrict or totally eliminate "junk foods" that have no nutritional value.

I think that much can be learned from examining the different diets that are working for people and see the common elements.

It's amazing how much crap we feed our bodies and I am not out of that group. Why in the heck do we as an intelligent species often choose to eat the poorer quality foods???

Pixie

[Snakecharm]

Originally posted by ohh_kristina
Did you know that Dr Atkins himself suffered a heart attack? This is not what he died of, though it did happen.

::shrug:: I honestly am not sure, I'm certain I could find out if I looked it up. If that's supposed to concern me, it doesn't. Because, while I'm at it, I'm sure I could find piles of people from every lifestyle and walk of life that have had heart attacks. Including vegetarians. It's all about lowering risk, eliminating it doesn't seem to be an option.

As far as that goes, I can only speak for myself and the results I've had. My doctor is aware of and monitoring my progress, and is fully supportive of what I'm doing because the benefits are obvious.

[MouseKilla]

I'm glad that folks have found ways of eating for the benefit of their health. I don't think the views are opposites here. The opposite of being a vegitarian would be converting to a totally carnivorous diet. Anyone doing that? LOL! This wasn't originally intended as a discussion of vegitarianism but I guess the dialogue goes where it goes. I was hoping that there were maybe some PETA folks kicking around here or other animal rights activists so I could have their views. I was hoping to grill someone who holds the belief that animals are equal to people, so far we haven't had that.

[reverendsterlin]

I've always been a big meat eater. I have been lucky enough to eat most of the exotic game species and some of the micro-cultural meats(meats common among specific areas or ethnic groups) found in the United States. Traveling in a number of 3rd world countries exposed me to even more unusual choices for BBQ or stew, some of which were a bit much even for me. I only object when the consumption becomes irresponsible, eating an endangered species just because your rich enough to find it is different than eating an endangered species because poverty and location make it what's available. Most animal populations have the reproductive capability to allow managed harvesting of animals for consumption, the desire for quick profit and lack of any type of management is where we encounter the problems I see in non-typical meat animals.

[marisa]

I have also been on the Atkins diet for about four months now.

Before, I was not a big fan of meat, especially red meat, just because I didn't find it very good. But on Atkins you must eat a lot of meat.

Not only have I lost unwanted extra weight, but my hair and nails have DOUBLED in growth (growing twice as fast) I have energy, my blood sugar is normal, I sleep AMAZINGLY well, my skin is clear, I get to eat many many times a day if I want and there are so many other benefits. I love the Atkins diet, and I cheat once in awhile too! (Once in awhile being twice per week when I must have some timbits or Wendys chicken strips LOL )

Anyways.....LOL. ....MEAT RULES! hahaha :D

Marisa

[Classic]

This is fact: I ate dog burgers for 4 days straight in Budapest, Hungary while on a drunk. You would be surprised what you are missing.
Before you pass judgement on me....remember that N. America is one of the few places that don't eat dog. It is good. I can tell you some of my other dishes from world travels if you wish. Deep fried rooster heads on a stick in Koh Samui, Thailand were also very good when leaving the bar at 5am. Deep Fried Octopus on a stick was not so good when drunk.

[J-Man]

Btw, I just found out that Atkins didn't really suffer a heart attack. He had heart problems because he had a viral infection and had nothing to do with what he ate at all.

[Linds]

Originally posted by ohh_kristina

I am also vegan because of the healthy aspect of it.

Interesting. I have never met one vegan or veggie that was defficient in some sort of nutrient. Do you have any unbiased, medical articles to prove this? I would be interested in reading them.

Originally posted by MouseKilla
There are laws concerning the slaughter of farm animals (they usually have to be bled to death) though I don't know if they apply to our feeder rodents. Anybody know about that?

I'm not sure if it an actual law, but I know that the only accepted method is CO2. I forget who it is accepted by, whether it is just the lab community, activitsts of sort, or actual law... :confused: I personally do not believe any meat animals are killed humanely... or anything close. Doesn't stop me from eating meat though... its something I believe is necessary (and tastes yummy :flick: ). I don't consume a huge amount of meat, but I do eat enough to keep me going :) I have a high protein diet, and get a lot of it from other sources, but I still don't think that meat alternatives can cut it :)

Originally posted by Invictus
ooh_kristina - I can probably show you just as many studies, written by meat eaters, about how NOT eating meat will kill you 10 years sooner. (And in fact, I have read scientific studies that show that meat eaters do outlive vegans by an average of 10 years.) Your sources are biased. So are mine. There is just as much proof against veganism as there is in favor of it.


I think the key word here is biased. In order for a good arguement, we need to start posting ubiased studies. Of course the vegans will say you will live longer, and the meat eaters will say the same about their lifestyles - eacho obviously believes they are right or they wouldn't be making that choice. I personally have never met a vegan or veggie that wasn't malnourished. I also don't understand how people can argue that we were not designed to consume meat. I forget the type of protein, but it is essential to our health and is only available from meat or kidney beans (this is coming from a doctor)... people cannot be designed to receive it from one sole source like a bean... it must be a bit broader than that due to factors like preferences, location, etc. - meat however is available everywhere, and everyone is able to consume one meat or another

[Classic]

I've seen chicken farms that use electric shock. They are hung by the feet and given a few jolts. They are then skinned while still hanging.

[Invictus]

Eating meat is about more than just protein - let's not forget Zinc and Iron, which cannot be found in any better quantities than in meat.

[eyespy]

In human opthalmology we used to treat a lot of vegans for B 12 deficiencies that caused corneal dystrophy. We used to treat a lot of heavy red meat eaters for arcus, a disease in which saturated fats build up in the limbus, the area where cornea meets iris.

I'm a fan of moderation. I'm disabled because I have allergies so severe that my immune system and heart have suffered significant damage. I've tried both the Atkins diet (got very weak and confused and constipated and had abnormal kidney tests from all the ketones) and veganism (my asthma flared up like crazy and my blood pressure dropped to the point I couldn't regulate my heart beat) and found that neither is best for me. I eat a high fiber, high complex carb, low simple carb diet with 4 to 6 ounces of good quality red meat per week and that is the diet that suits my own particular biochemistry.

There are many fruits and vegetables that can kill me because of all the cross-reactive proteins that aggravate my anaphylactic allergies so meat is a must for me. But too much meat means too much protein and allergies are an immune system over-reaction to protein so you need to severely limit protein intake if you have severe allergies.

I don't believe that any one diet is best for all people, we all have different biochemistries and need different things to keep our bodies well.

[MouseKilla]

Linds,
I have heard of, I think it was a pet store, being charged with animal cruelty because they tossed live rodents into the deep freeze to kill them. I was more or less wondering what the laws were on this because I bonk my own rats and mice that I feed to my snakes. I don't know if this is considered cruel or not, not that I care what anybody that can't charge me has to say about it I want to know if I'm breaking the law.

[brig]

Interesting debate!!!
I'm neither vege, nor a meat eater!!! At least not committed to either, having wavered back and forth for the last 20 years!!!

I did wonder if anyone has been to visit an abattoir/slaughterhouse? Especially those who are really strongly callous in their comments on animal welfare?

In the UK, smaller animals such as pigs and sheep are stunned before slaughter and larger animals such as cows and horses (yes, we have an equine abattoir about 50 miles from where I live, but not many people around here realise this!) are shot with a 'captive bolt' through the skull. The meat regulations give special exceptions when animals are killed according to various religious beliefs.

For me, it is just the grand scale of the whole thing which is shocking and horrific, rather than the 'principle' of raising animals for food.

Pushing hundreds, sometimes thousands, of animals PER DAY through the production line is an assault on every sense - although especially the noise and the smell. And I guess in the US and Canada the scale is multiplied many-fold!

Just to be contraversial for a moment - why not ensure that a trip around the slaughterhouse is a must on every schoolchild's curriculum, or at least a video, just like the ones on the milk bottling factory, or the chocolate factory, or the cookie factory... shouldn't our children learn about all the sources and processing of their food?

But many of us adults don't want to know what goes on 'behind closed doors', let alone show our children.
To me, if a practice needs to be 'hidden' from the majority of society, then there is something inherently wrong with some element of it. And having dealt with abattoirs for a few years of my working life, I can say that I feel that there IS something wrong with it. I honestly don't know what the answer is, but I don't like what goes on.

I don't think for a minute that everyone should suddenly become vege - but I do think a better approach to the industry should be sought.

I agree with everyone so far who has spoken of eating less meat - I'm a believer of 'everything in moderation'. To me that would seem the logical way to a healthier lifestyle.

A little bit of everything... yum, yum.:p

peace,
Brig

[hip]

The brain is a greedy organ that consumes a tremendous amount of energy. By weight, brain tissue uses about 16 times more energy per minute than does muscle tissue. Even when resting or sleeping, the human brain still consumes about 25% of the total energy being used by a human. During similar resting stages the smaller brains of most non-primate mammals use only 3-5% of the total body's energy. These data have lead anthropologists such as William Leonard of Northwestern University to suggest that human brains probably grew larger only after our earliest ancestors became skilled at finding sufficient amounts of high-calorie foods (protein and fats) to feed the voracious needs of their expanding brains. Even though an improved diet played a critical role, he notes that it was not the only factor that probably led to an increased brain size in humans.

The archaeological evidence left by our ancient ancestors attests to their skills as hunters and gives us important clues about their lifestyles, diets, and nutrition. In addition, when comparing the skeletons from ancient hunting and gathering societies to the skeletons of early farming cultures we find chilling evidence of what happened to the lives and health of most of the world's early agricultural, and later urban populations.

According to anthropologist George Armelagos of Emory University, high levels of bone porosity in the vault of the skull and around the eye orbits, called porotic hyperostosis, are considered good indicators of long-term anemia, commonly attributed to iron deficiency. Although porosity might be caused by other conditions, such as severe hookworm infections, the most frequent link is to long-term reliance on diets that are low in meat and high in carbohydrates; a common occurrence in early farming cultures where diets consisted mostly of cereal grains.

When Dr. Armelagos compared human skeletons from pre-agricultural foraging peoples who lived in the Illinois and Ohio River valleys with those of later farming cultures in the same region, the evidence of anemia in the farming group was overwhelming. He found a 400% increase in the occurrence of porotic hyperostosis among skeletons from the farming period, whose diets consisted mostly of maize.

[hip]

Animal Protein: All primates eat some type of animal protein but humans eat the highest amounts. Protein is a high-calorie food that our ancient ancestors needed to feed the high-energy needs of our large brain. When eaten, 3.5 ounces of meat produces about 200 calories of energy while the same amount of fruit yields less than 100 calories and 3.5 ounces of leaves produces only 10-20 calories.

Anthropologist Richard Lee of the University of Toronto has spent a lifetime studying the diets of contemporary foraging societies. He estimates that most of today's foraging societies obtain about one-third of their daily calories from animal protein, with the other two-thirds coming from plant foods. That amount is considerably higher than the average diet of 5-7% animal protein eaten by our closest relatives, the chimpanzees. William Leonard and others note that larger-brained humans need more high-calorie foods than do the smaller-brained chimps. Lee also notes that among contemporary foragers a significant percentage of their meat often comes from small reptiles, birds, and mammals. My examination of ancient human coprolites confirms that reliance on meat protein mainly from small animal hunting seems to be thousands of years old and may represent an essential pattern even from the beginning of humankind.

Humans need a constant supply of protein because unlike fats and carbohydrates, our body cannot store protein as protein. Instead, humans store excess protein as fat. Meat from animals, fish, and fowl contains from 15-40% protein by weight and is called "a complete protein source." By contrast, most plant foods often contain meager amounts of about 2-10% protein and are termed "incomplete proteins" because plant sources often lack at least one or more essential amino acids needed by all humans.

The increased need for protein to feed our larger brains may explain why Homo erectus, the first of our species with a brain nearly as large as modern humans, left the grasslands of east Africa and soon ranged over much of Europe, Asia, and the rest of Africa. Anthropologist Susan Anton of Rutgers University and others estimate that by the time Homo erectus emerged somewhere between 1-2 million years ago, the human needs for food and especially protein meant that this new species needed eight to ten times more room to search for food than did their smaller-brained ancestors who were restricted to the continent of Africa.

How much protein do humans really need? Nutritionists say about 10-20% of our diets should come from meat protein, a percentage that is within the minimal average eaten by most non-poverty-level Americans. For many of our ancient foraging societies about one-third of their daily calories came from animal sources and most of that came from meat. Nevertheless, archaeological records also indicate that some of our ancient ancestors, especially the ones we call the "big game hunters", probably relied on meat sources for as much as 50-60% of their total dietary calories.

Humans need protein because it provides the essential amino acids used by our bodies to build new tissues such as muscles, tendons, ligaments, and the walls of blood vessels. All of our growth from birth to death, as well as all repairs to our body, depends upon the amino acids we obtain from protein sources. Even our skin, hair, and nails cannot form properly without the correct amount and mixture of amino acids

[hip]

oops sorry here is the author of the above articles


by
Vaughn M. Bryant
Department of Anthropology
Texas A&M University
College Station, Texas 77843, USA

[jaybox_reptiles]

Hell yea that all i eat is meat and i feal that farming and raising food products is a part of life that is needed for 1 it gives old farmers a job cuz that is basically the only thing they no how to do and for 2 it keeps us healthy i think without out meat that we wouldent be near as healthy

[MouseKilla]

Hip,
So what you're saying is that if you're smart you eat meat? LOL! Those are all good reasons but even if it wasn't essential I'd still need a steak or some bacon every now and then.

[Classic]

yumeeeeeee. Bacon.

[daver676]

My gf is currently on the Atkins diet, and has been for the last month. In those four weeks, she has lost 20 pounds. It's a fairly easy diet to get into. She eats meat and salad, not potato or rice, flour, sugar, pasta, etc..... I've been thinking about starting this diet myself, but due to my kidney failure, and subsequent transplant, I'm a little leary about ingesting extra protein. I'll be talking to my docs first.....

Dave

[TheRedDragon]

Sheesh, everytime I drive by a herd of cows I always lick my lips "Mmmmmm....Foooooood" ;)

[jay76]

While I don't live on one any more, I grew up on a farm. I was raised to eat meat - specifically, meat that grew up in the barnyard. We had chickens and ate them and their eggs too. Many was the time we'd haul out steaks or ground beef and comment on how tasty George was. Had my parents been vegetarian I likely would be too (or at least I would have been for a while... I have a feeling I'd have gone carnivorous eventually anyway lol).

There's a question for vegans and vegetarians: would you raise your children in your way of life?

Interesting how taking kids through a slaughterhouse as part of their education came up. While I was in public school we had a tour of one of the local butchers shops. I seem to recall that they used either a bolt or blanks to kill the cow... they didn't show us the actual kill, but we did witness the hanging and cleaning. It was certainly educational, but nobody went home saying "ewww! I'm never eating meat again!"

It's good to see that this thread hasn't degenerated into a free for all. Although the mods must be getting bored by now... ;)

[marylyn101]

I raise meat for myself on my farm and we give them as much happiness and love. they go to a humane butcher (seen his work)